nairi Posted April 11, 2008 Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 Many other things have come and gone before humans and there is no indication AT ALL that us "humans" were by any means special or somehow intended to exist in the grand scheme of the Universe According to astronomers, correct me if I'm wrong, the conditions for 'intelligent' life to exist are very special. What I'm curious to know is whether there is space beyond the space that we know. Is it truly infinite, or is there an end somewhere? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashot Posted April 11, 2008 Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 "The Universe did not create itself nor it happened by an accident." This is your assumption; not a fact and not a proof. That statement is something you say to help a god be plausible. But it is meaningless and unfounded and cannot logically be used as a premise. "In another words not everything is possible to see or touch, and can be explained only by belief and sensible understanding. " This "belief and sensible understanding" (aka faith) of which you speak is cannot serve to explain anything at all. As a matter of fact it is a contadiction in terms: faith implies that explanation is not needed. Explanation presumes knowledge and knowledge can only be acquired through logic, reason and the scientific method. If it cannot be seen, touched or described indirectly, it cannot be believed. Arvestaket... As I asked you before, prove it!!! I don't believe anything you say... can you prove it? prove me that Universe started from something, don't tell me just gases, where did those gases come from... prove your point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted April 11, 2008 Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 Arvestaket... As I asked you before, prove it!!! I don't believe anything you say... can you prove it? prove me that Universe started from something, don't tell me just gases, where did those gases come from... prove your point Can you prove that it didn't? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashot Posted April 11, 2008 Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 Nairi jan, go back couple of pages start reading from there, you can only read my posts - you will not miss, the sever one of them that I constantly say none of us can prove anything, but these guys are constantly coming back and saying that my view in life is wrong... then let them prove me that it is wrong... I don't need to prove them that God exists for me, let them prove me that it doesn't, since they want me and many others like me to stop believing in GOD!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted April 11, 2008 Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 Arvestaket... As I asked you before, prove it!!! I don't believe anything you say... can you prove it? prove me that Universe started from something, don't tell me just gases, where did those gases come from... prove your point Universes do not start from gas, gas is matter, universes start from energy, actually from fluctuations and variations. From 0 you can creat 5 and -5... so mathematically speaking from emptiness can come something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted April 11, 2008 Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 "The Universe did not create itself nor it happened by an accident." This is your assumption; not a fact and not a proof. That statement is something you say to help a god be plausible. But it is meaningless and unfounded and cannot logically be used as a premise. "In another words not everything is possible to see or touch, and can be explained only by belief and sensible understanding. " This "belief and sensible understanding" (aka faith) of which you speak is cannot serve to explain anything at all. As a matter of fact it is a contadiction in terms: faith implies that explanation is not needed. Explanation presumes knowledge and knowledge can only be acquired through logic, reason and the scientific method. If it cannot be seen, touched or described indirectly, it cannot be believed. Does self awarness exist? Prove if beyond belief and faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashot Posted April 11, 2008 Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 I would love to see you make something from nothing!!! please prove everything you say, Dom, Sip, and Arvestaget... Prove me that you can create something from nothing... Show me an example!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashot Posted April 11, 2008 Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 Dom, again - I don't need to prove anything - you guys do!!! Your the one that wants me not to believe in God, again and again you guys are trying to convince me there is no GOD prove me!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted April 11, 2008 Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 I would love to see you make something from nothing!!! please prove everything you say, Dom, Sip, and Arvestaget... Prove me that you can create something from nothing... Show me an example!!! -5 + 5 = 0 I created 5 and -5 from 0. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashot Posted April 11, 2008 Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 that's is not creation, that is writing, and simple math!!! acting childish now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted April 11, 2008 Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 Dom, again - I don't need to prove anything - you guys do!!! Your the one that wants me not to believe in God, again and again you guys are trying to convince me there is no GOD prove me!!! No, you can believe in God. I place atheism and theism in the same bag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashot Posted April 11, 2008 Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 creating something from nothing, that's what you need to prove me!!! Show me if you can!!! you used a computer and keyboard, not to mention the mouse, and software and internet to create the -5 and the 5 and the 0... don't forget ZERO is not "nothing" Zero is a number!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arvestaked Posted April 11, 2008 Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 Does self awarness exist? Prove if beyond belief and faith. Postmodernism is stupid. And there is no such thing as proving something beyond belief. There are just reasonable and unreasonable beliefs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashot Posted April 11, 2008 Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 Dom, then what are you trying to prove here? what's your argument on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted April 11, 2008 Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 that's is not creation, that is writing, and simple math!!! acting childish now? Dude, inflationist theories address this very same issue. Quantum bubbles, check it up on google. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted April 11, 2008 Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 Postmodernism is stupid. And there is no such thing as proving something beyond belief. There are just reasonable and unreasonable beliefs. What I meant is that can you prove self awarnes exist? Yet you are 100% sure it exist, it is the thing you are most sure about yet you can't prove it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arvestaked Posted April 11, 2008 Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 Ashot, I'm sorry to break this to you sir but it seems you are just not intelligent enough are completely unwilling to understand basic concepts in logic. I don't need to prove anything. You do. All I need to do is point out that what you say is in fact no proof at all. Unfortunately, when I do that, you just don't get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted April 11, 2008 Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 Dom, then what are you trying to prove here? what's your argument on? What I mean is that reality is just more complext than dumb and simplistic ''god exist'' ''it does not exist''... both are a taking of position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashot Posted April 11, 2008 Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 Dom, just like trying to prove that Genocide happened to those who know nothing about it and they know that it never happened, and they can argue 100% that it did not happen, while you try to convince it happened? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted April 11, 2008 Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 Dom, just like trying to prove that Genocide happened to those who know nothing about it and they know that it never happened, and they can argue 100% that it did not happen, while you try to convince it happened? No, since the genocide is in the realm of physic..., god is in the realm of metaphysic, not that it proves that god does not exist, but that it's a different issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arvestaked Posted April 11, 2008 Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 (edited) What I meant is that can you prove self awarnes exist? Yet you are 100% sure it exist, it is the thing you are most sure about yet you can't prove it. Yes, you can prove it through logical statements. Existence in an axiom and you work from their. Cogito ergo sum, my friend. My that does not feel satisfying to you but it is enough. Another thing to keep in mind is that when it comes to knowledge, science never considers anything truly 100%. It is about whether there is reason to believe something, or there is not. Occam's Razor. Edited April 11, 2008 by Arvestaked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted April 11, 2008 Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 Yes, you can prove it through logical statements. Existence in an axiom and you work from their. Cogito ergo sum, my friend. My that does not feel satisfying to you but it is enough. Another thing to keep in mind is that when it comes to knowledge, science never considers anything truly 100%. It is about whether there is reason to believe something, or there is not. Occam's Razor. I can't disagree with you here, but science is just more than logic. Logical statments does not amount scientific proof. Anyway, does subjects for a reason bore me now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arvestaked Posted April 11, 2008 Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 According to astronomers, correct me if I'm wrong, the conditions for 'intelligent' life to exist are very special. Read The Blind Watchmaker. There is some nice talk on cosmic probability. In essence, it depends on how you look at it but that either way it wouldn't matter and cannot be used to infer the existence of a god. He goes into it a bit in The God Delusion as well. What I'm curious to know is whether there is space beyond the space that we know. Isn't everyone... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arvestaked Posted April 11, 2008 Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 I can't disagree with you here, but science is just more than logic. Logical statments does not amount scientific proof. Anyway, does subjects for a reason bore me now. The scientific method is derived from logic. Self awareness is not really a scientific issue. A logical proof is a logical proof. Period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aratta-Kingdom Posted April 11, 2008 Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 Universes do not start from gas, gas is matter, universes start from energy, actually from fluctuations and variations. From 0 you can creat 5 and -5... so mathematically speaking from emptiness can come something. for the ordinary people to be able to define energy withing themselves, they have created an image or a belief of an image [within themselves] whom they call God...or a Creator. without fluctuation and variation from 0 you can creat nothing...and without energy, you will never have fluctuation and variation. no matter how you look at it, the same energy, the same moving source that exists in the universe, also exists withing the humans. once again, it makes no difference how the ordinary people would want to define that energy, the point here is, ...there is an energy in the universe which shapes and resahpes everying in the universe. simply speaking, nothing happens without a reason, -there is no reason without movement, and there is no movement without energy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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