Harut Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 Sip... is there anything that you believe in? explain me something, you don't believe in anything whatsoever, then where did we come from? and where will we end up after death? have you ever thought of this? have you ever really sat down and think what happens after death? try brother, then you might start believing in "something"... unless you could care less what happens after death!!! Here is my argument, towards those, how shall we say, foolish people that pray and not do anything about it, first of all Sip jan, what I believe is they should have taken the kid to the doctors for medical treatment, then start praying for everything to be successful, not sit at home and pray for a miracle, cause it ain't happening!!! but then again why am I even trying to prove a point with you brother, anyways you don't believe in any of it!!! you believe that they should just take the kid to the doctors for the treatment and sit down relaxed, thinking it's either gonna get better or worse, not even worrying about it, cause you know what must happen will happen... and you wouldn't even have to pray for anything to be well because you just don't believe in it!!! - am I right? no, you are not... because this "you believe that they should just take the kid to the doctors for the treatment and sit down relaxed, thinking it's either gonna get better or worse, not even worrying about it, cause you know what must happen will happen..." sounds more like something the "believer" would do (not the really stupid one like in the article of course)... oh, and plus pray... the non-believer (the smart one of course) would do everything humanly possible to save the kid... such as fight to get the best doctor, provide the best treatment... understand the details of the situation and have an action plan (which doesn't include praying) (such as backup doctors, 3rd party opinions, plan of treatments, questioning and understanding each treatment, obtaining minut-by-minut news of the situation, etc.) and don't leave it upto docotor's and god's hands to solve everything... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashot Posted April 1, 2008 Report Share Posted April 1, 2008 Harut - becoming hostile - Do you really think that being a believer I would take my kid to the doctors and just abandom him there and start praying? do you really think that being a believer I am as stupid as you present me to be? don't you think that it's within every person to be smart not within a religion or beliefs? are you actually telling me and everyone else that believes in god are not as smart as you? you just proved how smart you are buddy... nothing more to tell you!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted April 1, 2008 Report Share Posted April 1, 2008 Harut - becoming hostile - Do you really think that being a believer I would take my kid to the doctors and just abandom him there and start praying? do you really think that being a believer I am as stupid as you present me to be? don't you think that it's within every person to be smart not within a religion or beliefs? are you actually telling me and everyone else that believes in god are not as smart as you? you just proved how smart you are buddy... nothing more to tell you!!! hm... i don't know how you arrived to those conclusions (that i'm becoming hostile, that i think you would abandon your kid, that i present you to be stupid, that i'm tell that i'm smart, that i'm telling believers are not as smart as i am), but anyways... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted April 1, 2008 Report Share Posted April 1, 2008 http://hayeren.hayastan.com/english/poets....=petros2.html#4 ՏՐՏՈՒՆՋՔ It always amazes me how many words Armenian has for "lament." Even Dourian seems to suggest that there are people who don't "cry"; or, in any case, don't have a designated "weeper" like the Armenians: Կըլլան մարդիկ, որ լացող մը չունին, (K@llan mardik, vor latsogh m@ chunin) (I haven't tested my fonts since the last upgrade, so bear with me if you see question marks) Thanks for introducing me to this poem, Arpa. I should get down to reading more Dourian.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted April 1, 2008 Report Share Posted April 1, 2008 (edited) I think I actually understood it pretty well that was exactly my point. Those people are saying it's their faith to pray and not seek medical help. She says it's stupid then asks for others not to judge her beliefs. Why is one base-less belief better than another? If we believe in God enough that we want to pray to Him, then why should we not respect people who believe in God even more and want to pray to Him even more (instead of seeing a doctor for example)? If you are going to say simply praying is not as harmful as not going to the doctor, I will argue that in the long run, praying and then going to the doctor is MORE harmful because at least in the other case, natural selection takes care of the problem Johannes knows what this means. In Armenian we call it ճակատագիր/destiny Կամք Աստուծոյ. In Arabic “Min Allah”, literally “From God”, I.e. the Will of God. I know first hand of an incident when the surgeon had opened the abdomen of this Arab chieftain and asked for saline to wash off the blood and debris. His assistant, who probably did not know the difference, handed him a bottle of sulfuric acid, and he poured it . The verdict? “Min Allah/God’s Will”. What does God have to do with human error? Remember? “To err is human”? If a stupid parent would rather “pray” and summon the “shaman”, the witch doctor, a priest to recite the Narek** rather than the physician/pzhishk/բժիշկ !!!??? After all. Who “created” the art and science of medicine/բժշկում? The devil? ** Do you know what "narot/նարոտ means, as in "narot kaper e tsaren ter papan/Նարոտ կապեր է ծարէն Տէր Պապան"? Go to Geghart and see that tree with all the "narot"s hanging. Do I believe in mumbo jumbo magic? I can look back and see that I questioned it even as far back as when I was five years old. Edited April 1, 2008 by Arpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashot Posted April 1, 2008 Report Share Posted April 1, 2008 "you believe that they should just take the kid to the doctors for the treatment and sit down relaxed, thinking it's either gonna get better or worse, not even worrying about it, cause you know what must happen will happen..." sounds more like something the "believer" would do the non-believer (the smart one of course) would do everything humanly possible to save the kid and don't leave it upto docotor's and god's hands to solve everything... Sounds more then enough for me!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zara Posted April 1, 2008 Report Share Posted April 1, 2008 no, you are not... because this "you believe that they should just take the kid to the doctors for the treatment and sit down relaxed, thinking it's either gonna get better or worse, not even worrying about it, cause you know what must happen will happen..." sounds more like something the "believer" would do (not the really stupid one like in the article of course)... oh, and plus pray... the non-believer (the smart one of course) would do everything humanly possible to save the kid... such as fight to get the best doctor, provide the best treatment... understand the details of the situation and have an action plan (which doesn't include praying) (such as backup doctors, 3rd party opinions, plan of treatments, questioning and understanding each treatment, obtaining minut-by-minut news of the situation, etc.) and don't leave it upto docotor's and god's hands to solve everything... I've learned the hard way that hoping or wishing for the best when there is nothing else that you can humanly do in a situation can end up crushing you and your spirits. There's no point in fretting over something you have no control over anymore. I don't hope, pray, or believe in anything when there is a situation where you have no control left. Doing as much as you can is common sense for someone that actually cares, which most people do, but praying, hoping and worrying seem pointless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted April 1, 2008 Report Share Posted April 1, 2008 Bayts yete Em & Ashot@ Canadayits lineyin k@havatayir che Esa yerku dari a aghotum em konyaki yev khorovatsi hamar. Verje mi or dalu a Astvats e. Du spas ... ke tesnes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted April 1, 2008 Report Share Posted April 1, 2008 Sip... is there anything that you believe in? explain me something, you don't believe in anything whatsoever, then where did we come from? and where will we end up after death? have you ever thought of this? have you ever really sat down and think what happens after death? Of course I believe in some things. I believe if I put raw meat on the fire, it will be cooked and ready to eat in a matter of minutes. It is a hypothesis that that has been tested by myself and many others (ask Mosjan) many many times and it has never failed. So I believe in the ability of fire to cook raw meat. Could it perhaps be God that is causing the meat to cook? Sure. But what reason is there to believe it? Where are we coming from ... where are we going ... what is after death etc etc ... I do NOT know. That doesn't mean I haven't thought about it and it doesn't mean I am stupid. I just don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashot Posted April 1, 2008 Report Share Posted April 1, 2008 Lav lav - ekeq sents asenq yev batsatrvenq... Everyone has their own beliefs and their own understanding of things around!!! Let's not make a fight in this topic, because if we do the mods would never permit this discussion!!! Here is the interesting part of it - I have witnessed 4 deaths, 2 of them murder, 2 accidents... yet on top of that I have witnessed a miracle, which I can certainly say I do strongly believe in! If it is interesting for you to know let me know I am open to tell the story! But then again, being a believer does not make me any less human or any less smart, as Harut said the things that a non believer would do, I would do the same if not more, therefore it is not the religion that makes us different, it's how much you control yourself, rather then let others control you!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashot Posted April 1, 2008 Report Share Posted April 1, 2008 Sip jan, yerpes galis ays koghmer@... vorovhetev Astvats arten qo xntranq@ katarela, mnuma du nerka lines!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashot Posted April 1, 2008 Report Share Posted April 1, 2008 Sip jan, I am not saying anything about stupidity... this topic has nothing to do with any of us being stupid or not!!! all I am asking is have you tried to question to find out about the things that are not known, or is it just something you never cared to know about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted April 1, 2008 Report Share Posted April 1, 2008 (edited) this has never been a very popular topic in discussion but very ugly in times, in this, or any other forum, over gathering, dinner time on, having sex (what does OHhhhh GOOOD has to do anything with orgasm? ) well, maybe the last one is not so controversial! anyways... what i think is, everyone should keep there believes to them selfs and, if one doesn't believe in god, fine, if other do its also fine. some belive in shabanism, satanism and egoism etc.... remember what i said many years ago, there is the 11th commandment. my interpretation is, "everyone has got to believe in something, I believe I'll have a drink " Edited April 1, 2008 by Edward Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yervant1 Posted April 1, 2008 Report Share Posted April 1, 2008 "everyone has got to believe in something, I believe I'll have a drink " Where is mine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted April 1, 2008 Report Share Posted April 1, 2008 Where is mine? Asot@ asets indz tur Yervanti bajin@, yesel Nairi brandyin tvetsi iran yes qu tex@ lineye Ashin warning ktayi, xapets Yervant jan indz:( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted April 1, 2008 Report Share Posted April 1, 2008 isk et jijuner@ arag en bazmanum ?? gone et jijuyov dzuk b@rnel k@lini ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted April 1, 2008 Report Share Posted April 1, 2008 Esa yerku dari a aghotum em konyaki yev khorovatsi hamar. Verje mi or dalu a Astvats e. Du spas ... ke tesnes. Sip jan Aghotelu kariq chka Galis es LA handipi Surb Griqor yekeghetsy - entegh qo Aghotq@ ara heto antsy dimatsy mayt@ - etegh Sahara Restorann ka asa MosJAnna ugharkel - qo hamar inch uzzum es patviri idz hamar el Tabuleh & Zaxtarov HAts isk yete lav aghotes k@gas LA - HAndipi mer tun Qez hamar 3 tarber tesaki BBQ kepenq - MAnghal Atsuxov - MAnghal Gazov - MAnghal Thonir - KOnyakn el du es berelu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashot Posted April 1, 2008 Report Share Posted April 1, 2008 Im koghmits atsux@ mekel gortsi teghits ginin k@berem!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johannes Posted April 1, 2008 Report Share Posted April 1, 2008 (edited) ** Do you know what "narot/նարոտ means, as in "narot kaper e tsaren ter papan/Նարոտ կապեր է ծարէն Տէր Պապան"? Go to Geghart and see that tree with all the "narot"s hanging. Do I believe in mumbo jumbo magic? I can look back and see that I questioned it even as far back as when I was five years old. ԺՀԼԲ բառարան. Նարոտ, գոյնզգոյն թելերից ոլորած հաստ թել: Վարագոյրները կախուած էին հաստ նարոտների վրայ, որոնց ծայրերից քարշ էին ընկած ոսկեթել փունջեր (Ր):(եկեղ.) Հարսանիքի օրը փեսայի ու հարսի վզին կապւող կանաչ-կարմիր թելը:Անբախտ ծնող, էնքան իրան կորցրել է, որ նարոտը վզիս մոռացել թողել է (ՊՊ): Ինչ որ գիտեմ, պսակի ընթացքին, հարս ու փեսայի գլուխին դրուած շղթայով կախուած խաչաթագը նարոտ կը կոչուի: Edited April 1, 2008 by Johannes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAS Posted April 1, 2008 Report Share Posted April 1, 2008 Նաև... Երբ կնունքի ժամանակ խաչը առանց շղթայի է լինում, ապա շղթային փոխարինում է նարոտը: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted April 1, 2008 Report Share Posted April 1, 2008 Im koghmits atsux@ mekel gortsi teghits ginin k@berem!!! uzzum es ases dzerqert tap talov galu es ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted April 1, 2008 Report Share Posted April 1, 2008 Նաև... Երբ կնունքի ժամանակ խաչը առանց շղթայի է լինում, ապա շղթային փոխարինում է նարոտը: hetaqrqir e arajin angam em l@sum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted April 1, 2008 Report Share Posted April 1, 2008 Նաև... Երբ կնունքի ժամանակ խաչը առանց շղթայի է լինում, ապա շղթային փոխարինում է նարոտը: Այո SAS , ըստ Աճառեանի ՆԱՐՕՏ** “նշանակի գոյնզգոյն թել կամ հիսուածք”, որ հավանաբար առաջ է եկել ներկ գոյն արմատից: Սուքիասեանը ասէ” Նարոտ=1- գոյն ներկ 2- տես թել” ** Ուշ դիր որ Աճառեանը դասականով հեգէ Օ - ով ոչ թէ Ո -ով: Ուրեմն նախ քան Օ -ի սա պիտի գրուեր նարԱՒտ"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aSoldier Posted April 4, 2008 Report Share Posted April 4, 2008 My sig says it well. If you don't believe in God despite the miracle of creation, nothing will convince you otherwise -- so there is no need in saying "prove to me God exists, then I will believe" because we both know that will never happen. There would be no need for faith if you're just waiting to see something before you believe it. Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arvestaked Posted April 4, 2008 Report Share Posted April 4, 2008 I'm actually rather surprised and pleased to see that six Armenians other than myself chose option three. (I would be more pleased if the results accurately reflected the general Armenian population, or people in general, for that matter.) Where are these Armenians during the day? I only see them in words on the internet. I would like to know whether people who believe this are speaking purely from natural skepticism of religion or whether they have also supplemented their beliefs through the reading of literature by Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett, Christopher Hitchens, Michael Shermer and the like. (A quick list of recommended reading: The Blind Watchmaker, Letter to a Christian Nation, God is Not Great, The God Delusion, the End of Faith, Unweaving the Rainbow, The Portable Atheist... and Skeptic Magazine.) I must also say that to these Armenians, assuming you are not, that you should be more open and honest about you views on the nature of the universe -- tactfully of course. Many people probably do even see such thoughts as an option but would entertain them or at least respect them more as a result of increasingly frequent exposure. We need to maintain cultural identity while also rising above this disgusting neurological plague that has held humanity's true potential back for so long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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