Exposing Christianity

[Sip]

Christ's Body (the Church) is the greatest thing there is on earth

 

Have you ever been to the buffet in Bellagio (Vegas)?

[Djrak]

Have you ever been to the buffet in Bellagio (Vegas)?

I have a friend. His name's John. He uses "humor" as a defense mechanism. I wish he'd stop so he can find his Life.

he has a lot of issues and he uses "jokes" as a mask to hide his emotions and wounds. I see right thru him and only pray for him because what he is doing to himself is terrible although all that people see is a "happy" and "joyful" person on the outside. Inside there's a monster he doesnt know how to tame.

Somehow you remind me of him Sip. You even look like him ( if that's your actual pic in your avatar)

Edited February 15, 2006 by Djrak

[aSoldier]

Sip, if I hadn't seen your pic I'd think you were an immature teenager

[Sip]

Sometimes people use humor to avoid directly insulting others. The picture is of me but it is somewhat edited with the cheese and the packer's jersey.

 

For a long time I thought people like you were joking with the Jesus talk. But the scary thing is sometimes it seems like you actually believe everything you say. And that is faaar more disturbing than how you look down on everyone else

 

My "wound" stems from seeing Jesus and God used as punchline to somehow justify every little thing done in life ... when in fact we as humans should give ourselves faaaaaaaar more credit than you do. Everything that goes well you attribute to Jesus. Of course no one will ever be able to compete with that! Then when something goes wrong, you blame yourself (or the devil).

 

Come on! Wake up and take some responsibility for your SELF.

Edited February 15, 2006 by Sip

[Djrak]

Sometimes people use humor to avoid directly insulting others. The picture is of me but it is somewhat edited with the cheese and the packer's jersey.

 

For a long time I thought people like you were joking with the Jesus talk. But the scary thing is sometimes it seems like you actually believe everything you say. And that is faaar more disturbing than how you look down on everyone else

 

My "wound" stems from seeing Jesus and God used as punchline to somehow justify every little thing done in life ... when in fact we as humans should give ourselves faaaaaaaar more credit than you do. Everything that goes well you attribute to Jesus. Of course no one will ever be able to compete with that! Then when something goes wrong, you blame yourself (or the devil).

 

Come on! Wake up and take some responsibility for your SELF.

 

my SELF is my enemy Sip, something I discovered after 25 years of living to satisfy it.

And can you please tell me when exactly I looked down on anyone? And if I did I'm sorry it must have been my SELF which still creeps up from time to time ( much less than before thanks to my Savior and King)

 

"The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life." - John 12:14

 

"Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." - John 14:6

 

Your pride (or desire to attribute all to your SELF) is what is keeping you from real LIFE

And I am not "giving faaaaaar more credit" to Jesus, you are taking away all of that from Him.

What seems scary to you is only scary because it is threatening your SELF. But your SOUL yearns for it all the time. It is called LIFE. It is food and water for your SOUL. But LIFE to your SOUL means DEATH to your SELF. And you have complete freedom to choose my friend.

Edited February 15, 2006 by Djrak

[Zartonk]

Do you mean to say that healing spiritually is impossible? Or televangelists can't possibly heal people?

 

I said physical for a reason, as in curing a physical illness; instantaneous "faith heeling". Spiritual self-improvement falls under something else.

[Zartonk]

Zartonk, anyone who knows me knows well that I am the last person to buy into the "supernatural / spiritual / religious" mombo jumbo ... however, I am fairly convinced on the power of the mind over body. I think a lot of our ailments are not really physical and are mostly in our heads. Furthermore, how we "feel" often has a direct correlation in how we "are". That is why a "televangelist" can in fact "heal" a person if that person is stupid enough to believe that such a thing can be done! (ironically enough)

 

I think it is a very non trivial and at the same time puzzling/distrubing thing to realize that you can have two identical persons, with identical biologies, and identical surroundings, etc etc ... yet one could be horribly misserable and the other be completely content and happy. It's all in those darn chemicals in the brain.

 

... or some people chose to call it "soul" (I don't think it is because soul has a bunch of supernatural connotations associated with it) ... but whatever name you chose to label it as, the phenomenon is there.

 

As far as our metal state and our biologies, since the mind controls a lot of things that are going on in the body, I think our mental state can definitely impact our biological well being. The effects of stress on blood pressure and heart disease are one very common example but it doesn't have to be as simple as that.

 

I completley agree with you Sip; I never denied the immense physiological role of the brain in creating, recieving and reacting to bodily sickness . As a matter of fact -as you have said- it it this very occurance and phenomenon that has been attempted to be explained by such means as the "soul" or "spirit". And it is obviousley real, I think the spiritual experience is found between the neurons of our noggins.

 

All I am saying is that it is better to think about and acquire knowledge about what goes on in our head than to helplessly and sheepishly hand your condition over to someone who promises to heel you through faith or whatever

[Sasun]

my SELF is my enemy Sip, something I discovered after 25 years of living to satisfy it.

And can you please tell me when exactly I looked down on anyone? And if I did I'm sorry it must have been my SELF which still creeps up from time to time ( much less than before thanks to my Savior and King)

 

"The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life." - John 12:14

 

"Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." - John 14:6

 

Your pride (or desire to attribute all to your SELF) is what is keeping you from real LIFE

And I am not "giving faaaaaar more credit" to Jesus, you are taking away all of that from Him.

What seems scary to you is only scary because it is threatening your SELF. But your SOUL yearns for it all the time. It is called LIFE. It is food and water for your SOUL. But LIFE to your SOUL means DEATH to your SELF. And you have complete freedom to choose my friend.

Each person has 2 selves, one is the real Self which is the divine in us, and the second one is the false self which is the ego. These 2 selves are enemies. Ego thinks that it is the body and mind, that it is separate from others, and that it will die one day to be lost forever. The ego suffers from a multitude of diseases, fear, insecurity, anger, jealousy, etc... Ego is in a delusionary state. It is the slave of Satan but it thinks it is free.

The real Self is actually the infinite, immortal, always blissful, ever free Soul having taken a particular body and mind as clothing in this life. The real Self views other individuals as itself, there is no sense of separation from others, there is no racial, national, religious, sex separation, all is one and the same eternal Self. Therefore, all are brothers and sisters loved equally, there are no enemies among humankind. The real Self does not view death as real death, and does not suffer from anything. Life is only an interesting adventure to enjoy and be entertained with no matter what happens, as inteded by God.

 

As long as we keep thinking that we are the body and mind it is the false self talking and acting. It is very much like thinking that you are your clothes. This is a human delusion form which we all suffer. Essentially, the cause of all suffering is the ignorance of who we really are. (A simple illustration: some women focus so much on their appearance and become obsessed with it that they think they are their clothes and make up, if something is wrong with their dressing they get terribly upset and uhappy. What an unfortunate delusion!)

[Zartonk]

(Sorry about the multiple posts everyone.)

 

Sasun jan, about the observed fact. Can you give an example?

 

It is impossible to bring anything to its completion and success without Christ. And I mean anything.

 

So the failure of all the men who were before Jesus Christ or just had no chance to hear of him was due to them having no Jesus, and all of their successes and advancements are unexplained?

[Sasun]

Sasun jan, about the observed fact. Can you give an example?

Excellent question, all along I have been waiting for a raional question like this. Rather than being cynical and skeptical as usually happens, you are asking the right question

 

I can bring testimonies of people who have been cured by spiritual healing and prayer. Here Anahid just pointed one example she knows, and Djrak is mentioning of others. Are they scientifically investigated? Probably no, but we should get more details rather than dismiss. I am not vouching for those since I don't know more about these than what's said above. I will bring cases that I know better.

 

In addition, I will also bring scientific research on prayer for others. Just give me some time and I will open up a new thread just for these questions

[Sasun]

Christ's Body (the Church) is the greatest thing there is on earth

My friend, this is a fine slogan but is it true? Christ's Body is where Christ's Spirit is. A church is a building or an organization. Unless there is true devotion to God there is no Christ's Body. And if there is a true devotion in a desert then there is Christ's Body.

 

St. Francis of Assissi was so much devoted and in tune with Jesus Christ that he had unity in body, mind and soul with Jesus Christ. That is why he also had Jesus's wounds of crucifixion on his own body. This I call Christ's Body. As far as various churches of the world are concerned - no, in most cases they are not the Body of Christ, they are simply places to gather and listen to sermons without much devotion really.

[ED]

Sasun if I may tell a short stroy from my own experiance

 

years ago I had a very complicated surgary, very painfull and recovery took a long time, wile and during the recovery the pain was unberable and as a rule I dident take pain killers, finaly I asked my doctor to priscrabe me with one, he said dont need to buy it here is madication and its a pain killer, looked like ordinary madication with vicodin written on it, after taking the first one the pain was gone, and I continue for a week then stoped, pain never came back!

 

few weeks after I had to see my doc again, after the examination I said thatks very much for the vicodin, he smiled and told me it was ordinary VITAMIN C

 

mind over matters, mind workes in mesterios ways and its ALL in our minds, if one doesent want to live/feel better no religion, or miiracle will help, got to have faith, be that to the religion or what ever rocks your boat

[Sasun]

Sasun if I may tell a short stroy from my own experiance

 

years ago I had a very complicated surgary, very painfull and recovery took a long time, wile and during the recovery the pain was unberable and as a rule I dident take pain killers, finaly I asked my doctor to priscrabe me with one, he said dont need to buy it here is madication and its a pain killer, looked like ordinary madication with vicodin written on it, after taking the first one the pain was gone, and I continue for a week then stoped, pain never came back!

 

few weeks after I had to see my doc again, after the examination I said thatks very much for the vicodin, he smiled and told me it was ordinary VITAMIN C

 

mind over matters, mind workes in mesterios ways and its ALL in our minds, if one doesent want to live/feel better no religion, or miiracle will help, got to have faith, be that to the religion or what ever rocks your boat

Ed,

 

In your case it may have been your mind that removed the pain. But that does not mean that prayer will not work. Both are possible.

[ED]

Sasun jan thats exacly my point. I'm talking about mind set and power of mind here, if yu want to belive, that is the question, not just in God, Christianity, Jewdeism, Islam, etc.......but any form of belive, simply put, I belived if i took the madication the pain would go away, dosent matter if it was waht it was, main thing is it was gone

 

do you get my point?

[Anoushik]

Sometimes people use humor to avoid directly insulting others.

Good one!

[Anoushik]

Sasun jan thats exacly my point. I'm talking about mind set and power of mind here, if yu want to belive, that is the question, not just in God, Christianity, Jewdeism, Islam, etc.......

Yes, my favorite belief being belief in humanism.

 

Djrak, sSebB, and others who say that life is empty and dry without faith in God - my question to you is why not have faith in humanity, your fellow brothers and sisters on this earth, who are of actual flesh and blood, who make life better every day? Look at the advancement of humanity and what we have accomplished!

[Djrak]

Yes, my favorite belief being belief in humanism.

 

Djrak, sSebB, and others who say that life is empty and dry without faith in God - my question to you is why not have faith in humanity, your fellow brothers and sisters on this earth, who are of actual flesh and blood, who make life better every day? Look at the advancement of humanity and what we have accomplished!

Dear Anoushik, when you realize that you can't move an inch or take a single breath without God you'll see why He's so amazing.

Anoushik, the world has nothing to offer me. You know why? Because I am dead to the world and risen with Jesus Christ because I believed in Him. It isnt something i earned but something He gave me freely. And the life I live now is so much more superior than anything the world has to offer. How long and how much of a full life will you live without the creator and giver of life? 60?70?100? I will live forever. This is something I know. Not something i've learned.

Advancement of anything is impossible without God. Actual flesh is fallen from the life it was meant for. So I rather live the way i was designed to live (as a human being) than to live deceived about my identity and a whole bunch of other stuff. It isnt something theoretical but actual life experience that I'm talking about.

When born of the Spirit of God everything changes. Who i was before is dead. I am a new being now and I live for the one who saved me from the trap of the evil one who has blinded the world so that they wont see the glory of Jesus Christ.

Life is empty without Him, even if u live the "fullest" life in a worldly sense, you will still feel empty the end of the day. Unsatisfied and wanting more.

When u receive LIFE (=Jesus) you become enlightened, spiritually, mentally and physically.

[Djrak]

My friend, this is a fine slogan but is it true? Christ's Body is where Christ's Spirit is. A church is a building or an organization. Unless there is true devotion to God there is no Christ's Body. And if there is a true devotion in a desert then there is Christ's Body.

 

St. Francis of Assissi was so much devoted and in tune with Jesus Christ that he had unity in body, mind and soul with Jesus Christ. That is why he also had Jesus's wounds of crucifixion on his own body. This I call Christ's Body. As far as various churches of the world are concerned - no, in most cases they are not the Body of Christ, they are simply places to gather and listen to sermons without much devotion really.

I wasnt talking about the building or institution, neither does the Bible or our faith. sSebB lives on the other side of the globe and I don't know Him but we are 1. United by His Spirit.

I agree most churches (small 'c') are empty of God's Spirit. because the Holy Spirit is very sensitive, St Paul warns us not to sadden the Spirit. People (so called believers) trust in themselves instead of trusting God so that He leads them directly with His Spirit.

That is exactly why atheists and non believers have all these excuses. If the Church (capital 'C') stayed true to Him the world would have been different. But anyway,

I believe that the Body of Christ has reached a certain maturity now in the 21st cent and the future seems brighter because our Lord Himself told us that the end wont come until the gospel reaches all corners of the earth! The Body will grow! and our Lord will be glorified.

Edited February 15, 2006 by Djrak

[Djrak]

So the failure of all the men who were before Jesus Christ or just had no chance to hear of him was due to them having no Jesus, and all of their successes and advancements are unexplained?

Whatever happenned before Jesus was a preparation for His coming there was no salvation before Jesus, everything led to death. BUT all those who believed and put their hope in God were risen with Christ when He descended into hades and offered salvation because He defeated death and granted life to those trapped there.

Edited February 15, 2006 by Djrak

[Djrak]

sorry... double post... Edited February 15, 2006 by Djrak

[Sasun]

Sometimes people use humor to avoid directly insulting others.

I guess the question is, why would you want to insult someone, and then use humor to cover it?

[Sasun]

Koan

 

His Master told him

"Go and seek the truth of the lie. If you find it , let me know - by

clapping with one hand.

He left his home and master to sit on the top of a mountain surrounded

by a vast valley.

Focusing on the meditative silence of his heart, hoping for answers of

questions he never

asked. Somewhere, lost deep inside himself, he had a vision of a

beautiful child talking to

him:

 

"The reality of illusion which creates the illusion of reality still

carries the truth even it's a lie.

On the one hand are the things we need, on the other hand are the

things we want-

still buried under the shelter of relativity."

 

Now he knew! - It was so clear.

To reveal the truth covered by the lie, just want the things you need.

Suddenly he heard his master laughing.He opened his eyes and saw his

master standing right

in front of him. The master smiled and said " Ah...I heard you clapping

with one hand...."

[Zartonk]

my question to you is why not have faith in humanity

 

Thanks Anoushik.

[Azat]

For years people have taken photos of UFOs and then in 1970 the FBI put a simple contest that just said "If you take a picture of a UFO we will give you 10K if it can be proven to be authentic, however you get jail term if it is not authentic" I do know that until few years ago not a single photo was submitted to the FBI to claim the 10K.

 

I wonder how many of these great healers would submit to those kind of a contest if the AMA ran a similar contest. I do know thousands of doctors would but wonder about these healers. BTW there are a few Armenian healers in Glendale as well.

 

As for people who get curred of cancer because of "religion", I would point to 1000 cases that get curred by medical means for each one that you guys can point to to be healed by religion.

[vava]

No Vava, I have to disagree. Flat earth was never an observed fact. Portions of earth were observed to be approximately flat, that was all that was observed.

 

Same as in the case of "spiritual" healing. People are observed to heal - and their healing is being attributed to religion/prayer. Sometimes sick people just get better.

 

As to healing, it is an observed fact because you can see somebody is sick then somebody else heals him and he is no longer sick. I call it an observed fact. Often it is also repatedly observed which makes it a more reliable observation. The reason many people are skeptical regarding healing is because there are many cases of hoax, superstition or cases where the healing happened naturally while it was attributed to spiritual healing.

 

This (the bolded statement) has been my observation - and it is quite prevalent.

You guys can attribute healing to god or whatever - I securely believe that it is the "self" that heals. Whether it is through the belief in religion, homeopathic medicine, or sheer determination. It is mind over matter - what the mind believes, in fact. So the belief in religion can certainly be a healing force... but magically healing someone else is an entirely different matter.