TigranG Posted September 29, 2005 Report Share Posted September 29, 2005 (edited) Lately I have been hearing a lot of Armenian people on this forum depicting Armenia to be a European country and its culture as European... I still cant understand why people ignore facts so here is a little information on this matter... Lonely Planet website states the following: "If you're unsure what the flavour of southwest Asia is, a quick look around Yerevan will tell you it's Middle Eastern, albeit Middle Eastern without mosques and Islam". http://webcenter.travel.aol.com/travel/lon...ia/culture.html Although "Lonely Planet" recognizes the correct geographical area of Armenia (Southwest Asia), with much ignorance they still list it as part of Europe... I believe that in certain areas, America, though being an Industrial giant, lacks much education, or atleast the common Americans do... Edited September 29, 2005 by TigranG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arvestaked Posted September 29, 2005 Report Share Posted September 29, 2005 You've created a thousand topics with the same goddamn subject. Honestly, if I ever did, I no longer give flying crap about your issue with people claiming the Europeanness or Caucasianness of the Armenians. Move on, already, for Hell's sake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigranG Posted September 29, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 29, 2005 (edited) I will not move on untill the people who claim Armenia to be culturally European, explain their reasoning for such statements! This topic has nothing to do with the race issue... Edited September 29, 2005 by TigranG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arvestaked Posted September 29, 2005 Report Share Posted September 29, 2005 Ok. Not moving should include not typing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted September 29, 2005 Report Share Posted September 29, 2005 i would like you to descibe the european and middle eastern cultures, so i can identify to which one of them the armenian culture belongs to... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted September 29, 2005 Report Share Posted September 29, 2005 Tigran, I fail to see the aim of starting multiple threads. Are you attempting to alienate those that support your position? It's a worthless discussion, Europe is a social construct, debating about this, is like debating if race exists as biological basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanetsi Posted September 29, 2005 Report Share Posted September 29, 2005 Why do you feel the need to categorize Armenians? You act as though we're refusing to make the concession of being Middle Eastern... as though we're claiming to be European to feel superior. This is simple-minded bigotry. NO RACE IS INNATELY BETTER THAN ANY OTHER. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigranG Posted September 29, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 29, 2005 (edited) MUSIC "Folk music is still very much alive in Armenia and in the diaspora. Armenian music in its authentic, unadulterated form belongs to the Middle Eastern tradition". (zurna,davul,dhol,doumbek,santur,kemenche,tar,oud, kanoon, saz, etc)... http://www.geocities.com/tomzara/tai.htm FOOD Shish kebab, lavash, kofta, pilaf, matnakash, tabouleh, etc... CUSTOMS Tradition of rug making (mostly middle eastern), the use of henna with the wedding ceremonies (middle eastern), traditional clothes (middle eastern to a certain degree), traditional dances (middle eastern to a certain degree)... ANCIENT ARMENIAN CULTURE Armenians worshiped Assyrian and Zoroastrian gods in the pre-christian era... (Khaldi,Tesiheba, Shivini, Khutuini, Turani, Ua, Nalaini, Shebitu, Arsimela, Anapsha, Mihr, Astghik, Vahagn, Tir, and Anahit) Armenian culture strongly resembled the pre-islamic Persia... Even now Armenian culture is the closest to Persian, without Islam of course... Edited September 29, 2005 by TigranG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigranG Posted September 29, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 29, 2005 (edited) I agree that no race is better than any other... The reason why I started with these topics is because I am tired of Armenian people disguising themselves in America and Europe, to be European, falsifying that Armenia is in Europe... I am sick and tired of Armenians trying to disconnect themselves from the rest of the middle eastern people... I am not starting a new thread to gain support, I started this spacific topic to break away from the issues in my other thread such as race... Because I did not receive any explanations as to why Armenian people consider their culture to be European, that is all... "Europe" in its purest form is nothing more than a region which was created by ethnically/culturally political and physically geographical borders... Edited September 29, 2005 by TigranG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantom Posted September 29, 2005 Report Share Posted September 29, 2005 I agree that no race is better than any other... The reason why I started with these topics is because I am tired of Armenian people disguising themselves in America and Europe, to be European, falsifying that Armenia is in Europe... I am sick and tired of Armenians trying to disconnect themselves from the rest of the middle eastern people... I am not starting a new thread to gain support, I started this spacific topic to break away from the issues in my other thread such as race... Because I did not receive any explanations as to why Armenian people consider their culture to be European, that is all... "Europe" in its purest form is nothing more than a region which was created by ethnically/culturally political and physically geographical borders... style_images/master/snapback.png I touched on this in the other thread under History, but I think that "Europe" does not so much identify a particular culture as it does a unique idealogy or set of values. There is no one "culture" in Europe. The Swedes have their own culture, holidays, foods, music and traditions, while the Greeks have a totally different set, which is different from the Dutch. But they all embrace a set of values relating to civil rights, women's rights, education, high literacy, respect for different religeons and cultures, etc. I think it is this idealogy that forms the concept of "Europe". It's not a geographic limitation, a religious limitation, or a physical limitation. If Armenians tend to embrace the same values, then we can say that we embrace European values or that our tendencies are European. What's wrong with that. Plus, I think it is true, particularly when compared to everyone else in our neighborhood? Don't we embrace the values of Europe more than we do those of Iran and the rest of the middle east today? Perhaps, we don't fully embrace all of the "European" values that, e.g., Denmark embraces, but we certainly embrace more European values than the majority of Turks and they are aspiring to be part of the EU. So when we hear Armenians saying they are European or more European than others, I think they are referring to European ideals more than they are to geography or genetics, wouldn't you agree that in that sense we are certainly more European than any of our neighbors. Also, if being European is only about the color of your skin, then we are more European than the Portuguese, Italians, and Spaniards, because they are generally darker than us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigranG Posted September 29, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 29, 2005 (edited) The correct way to interpret that, is to say that Armenians are thriving towards the western ideology not spacifically European, because the first nation in the west to adopt "freedom" and "open-minded" ideas was America when they wanted more freedom from Europe... You are wrong in terms of "Europe being an Ideology", it is a region/a geographical term. What you are describing is the western Ideology... Many Asian countries practice the same ideology, without the claim of being European! Edited September 29, 2005 by TigranG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantom Posted September 29, 2005 Report Share Posted September 29, 2005 The correct way to interpret that, is to say that Armenians are thriving towards the western ideology not spacifically European, because the first nation in the west to adopt "freedom" and "open-minded" ideas was America when they wanted more freedom from Europe... You are wrong in terms of "Europe being an Ideology", it is a region/a geographical term. What you are describing is the western Ideology... Many Asian countries practice the same ideology, without the claim of being European! style_images/master/snapback.png I guess I need to clarify. I realize that Europe is a geographical location. But what I meant to say is that when Armenians say they are European or like Europeans, I think they are thinking of the term "European" as an idealogical identification rather than a geographical identification. And frankly, I tend to hear Armenians argue that they are Western in orientation more than they say they are European. So perhaps your view that the ideology I described is better described as Western has not been lost on most Armenians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigranG Posted September 29, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 29, 2005 (edited) Well said! I wish more people had the mentality to explain it as well as you have... Instead of arguing... Edited September 29, 2005 by TigranG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigranG Posted September 29, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 29, 2005 So we have finally come to a conclusion after all this time... Armenians are geographically and culturally middle eastern, but with western orientation, which they very are proud of... Finally Phantom, thank you for your dead-on explanation... I am glad for this lengthly topic to end! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zartonk Posted September 29, 2005 Report Share Posted September 29, 2005 (edited) European or Middle Eastern? I say none, because it is Armenian. Now, I am not dismissing the Western ideological orienation, nor the Eastern antiquity it posseses, but Europe and Middle East are just georgraphical terms, best left to the cartographer. As QueBeceR mentioned, this is a topic of social construct. European or Middle Eastern: how and why does it matter..? Edited September 29, 2005 by Zartonk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kakachik77 Posted September 30, 2005 Report Share Posted September 30, 2005 if we are so welcome in the Middle East why did they have to ethnically cleanse us from Anatolia based on our religion/value system etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kakachik77 Posted September 30, 2005 Report Share Posted September 30, 2005 So we have finally come to a conclusion after all this time... Armenians are geographically and culturally middle eastern, but with western orientation, which they very are proud of... Finally Phantom, thank you for your dead-on explanation... I am glad for this lengthly topic to end! style_images/master/snapback.png ONLY YOU came to that conclusion. As you understand, we Armenians don't like to be dogmatized and think alike. We cherish our individualism and the idea that we can have a pluralist society idealogicly speaking. While there are numerous disaggrements about this very topic that you keep bringing up God only knows for what reason - you get as much variety in answers as possible. And I feel extremely sorry for you to categorize America as the first country to adopt values of freedom. One simple example, in 1918 when Armenia became independent women where given the right to vote without any debate, in America women got this right only in 1919 after years of struggle. Something to ponder about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hytga Posted September 30, 2005 Report Share Posted September 30, 2005 (edited) don't you have anything else to talk about other than posting the same topic under different titles and slightly modified versions? Edited September 30, 2005 by hytga Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted October 19, 2005 Report Share Posted October 19, 2005 I will not move on untill the people who claim Armenia to be culturally European, explain their reasoning for such statements! I'm afraid you don't know much of Armenian culture. What you have been saying all along is the fact that the Armenian culture was Middle EAsternized which is undenying fact. However, if you keep reading the forum you might discover things that otherwise your petite and stagmatized brain have no chance to comprehend. Elaborate Tigranoglu, elaborate... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melikian Posted March 1, 2006 Report Share Posted March 1, 2006 Lately I have been hearing a lot of Armenian people on this forum depicting Armenia to be a European country and its culture as European... I still cant understand why people ignore facts so here is a little information on this matter... Although "Lonely Planet" recognizes the correct geographical area of Armenia (Southwest Asia), with much ignorance they still list it as part of Europe... I believe that in certain areas, America, though being an Industrial giant, lacks much education, or atleast the common Americans do... Tigran Present day Armenia is technically in Europe, the continental line is not straight. I was surprised when I discovered this from a encyclopedia. Both of my parents were Armenians as am I, we all consider ourselves as Europeans. I was born in the US and think that Americians are well educated, but are not knowledgeable on many things, history, culture, geography, politics, ETC. Educated people can be ignorant. Respectfully Melikian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexan Posted March 6, 2006 Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 Maybe I’m wrong, but the general tone of the first answers made me think that the starter of this topic had been already involved in general discussions like the present one. And, in doing so, always provocative. I’m not aware of past discussions, so I’m going to write some lines just about something the pretended polarization European/Middle Eastern has evoked in me. The side of the debate as it interests me is in some way more a psychological one than anything else. Obviously it’s not a question of cultural or racial/ethnic superiority, in being European or whatever else. But, first of all some precision about the terms. From a geographic point of view, present and, even more, past Armenia are neither in Europe nor in Middle East: the correct term should be Near East. Not in Europe. Present Turkey is in a very small part in Europe (more precisely a part of ancient Tracia) while the rest is in Asia. On the other side the Caucasus range is the border between Europe and Asia. Doesn’t matter what kind of extension we would like for Armenia: definetely it will remain South of Caucasus. As regarded by institutions the concept of Europe doesn’t overlap geography: for instance Armenia (since 2001), Georgia (since 1999), Azerbaidjian (since 2001) and Turkey (since 1949!) are members of the Council of Europe. The same four countries (plus Israel and Kazakhstan!) also belong to UEFA (soccer fans know what I’m talking about). After Turkey, Morocco (!) is deemed the next appliant to European Union. Coming to the topic, what always confused me in the attitude of Armenians in diaspora was their taking a distance from the image Armenians had (to the eyes of Europeans) as long as they lived on the mainland. I mean, before genocide Armenians were citizens of the Ottoman Empire. History (and literature, see 40 days of MD) is full of anecdotes about their refusal of being aware of what was happening to them, the favourite millet. During those ferocious years, and after the treaty of Lausanne, Armenians became known to the large european public as victims or refugees. The great majority of Armenians who arrived in Europe as a consequence of the genocide were looked upon as poor people. The first generation worked hard, and you have to consider that they were already used to affirm themselves through work, perhaps in even harsher conditions. Armenians I lived among in Europe would have never described themselves to european friends, as Middle Easterners. And I suspect that they did so, in some way understandably, because they didn’t like to be confused with the image that average Europeans had of other people from the Middle East: they were no more the poor ones, they had integrated (or were trying to) in their guest countries. Moreover, many facts gave them the right to do so: religion, attitude toward work, cultural interchanges with Europe throughout history, and so on. In doing so, however, they were also rejecting the fact that Armenia is an eastern people. So I agree with those saying that the polarization it’s not Europe/Middle East but more of the Western/Eastern kind. Even nowadays it’s easy to hear “we’re totally different from them (those living around us)”. And my point of view is that this is already hard to be accepted. Before genocide the saying would have been “we’re totally different from them (those among whom we live)”. Obviously we were/are different, but that’s not all. I’m 100% a citizen of the European country I live in and 100% Armenian (well, it’s not that simple). I consider that as a richness. I think we Armenians should in some way do the same with the Western/Eastern legacies. Why to refuse we are also an Eastern people? Many treasures lie in that feeling too. Much better than my words would be a visit to the Sarian and Paradjanov houses in Yerevan ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted March 6, 2006 Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 All in all it is a complex issue that should be examined on an individual level. Speaking in terms of categories, i.e. ethnicity, people, nation, the answer is that most Armenian are European, not neseserally in terms of geography. The East/West and let me add South/North issue would be a matter of a prolonged debate. At least for another few milenia. In the ancient past Armenians were regarded as the advanced Northerners by our Southern (not less advanced) neighbours. For those North of us, we were mudy, laid back southerners. As to East/West the borders are also blured. Europe, before the Middle ages was a cultural desert. The WEST at that time were the borders of the Roman Empire - mostly around Mideteranean and the bordering regions, Armenia included. Later with the division of the Roman Empire to Eastern and Western, Armenians were the leading force in Byzantium. The invasion of the Seldjuk Turks, Arabs and Mongols were devastating blow to our development. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arvestaked Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 Anyone know anytthing about a tribe called the Chalybes from around the 14th century BCE and how they related to Armenians? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zartonk Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 (edited) Chalybs or the Khalib were a tribe native to the south-eastern coast of the Black Sea, or the Pontic portion of Anatolia. They are later mentioned as the Chalybis of Pontus Cappadocicus, or the Cappadocian region of the Roman province of Pontus. Most of what we know about them today comes from the histories of Xenophon and Strabo (although Homer also makes note of them in his works). They were immediate kins and neighbors to the Mossynoikoi, the Tubal/Tabal/Tibarenoi tribe, and the Khaldi, who are in turn the oldest indigenous tribe of Eastern Anatolia and the founders and peoples of the Kingdom of Urartu. Edited March 7, 2006 by Zartonk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanetsi Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 I had never heard of that. You really do learn something new everyday. I've spent hours upon hours reading about Armenian prehistory, focusing mainly on the peoples that are our progenitors, and I've never even heard of the Chalybs/ Khalibs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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