Armenians Who Converted To Islam

[phantom22]

The Turks are living a "big lie." Hopefully the Pamuk story will snowball to expose these other issues during a time that they are "under a microscope."

[Arpa]

Some clarifications.

No, I am not turk. Yes turk chem, yes hye am. Ev shat magur hyeren kxosem dzes het, sakajn bolors hyeren chen haskanum. Dra hamar, xosum The facts

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Barev Karen,

I had no doubt.

I think that whole confusion about your ethnicity was due to a misreading of my post above where I was alluding to the original originator of the thread. Please all, reread my post and look at who the originator is and what their purpose is.

Let us not get carried away and place our big feet in our mouths,and as Dave says, this whole charade is to deflect our attention and in a subtle way to show how Armenians would convert to Islam and not visa versa.

[Karen]

I am curreently working on the details and will come up with some good news. As I said, I found out more than 100 villages already, which were islamized during 1895 and earlier, therefore, survivng the Genocide. I expect about 500 villages in total, which might still remember who they are...

 

Besides this, there are several millions of Turks, who know they were born as a result of rapes of women, who were spared their lives only to get into turkish harems. Or who were born as an offspring of children saved by some Turks (usually, Ghizilbashs or Alevi turks, not really big fans of being turks either). And now, since the and of taboo on Armenian Genocide, this people struggle over their mixed identity. Be that Europe or US, there would have been no problem. But in Turkey, publicly acknowledge any "gyavoor" blood equalls to suicide. And that's in 21 century!

 

Read an article about it from BBC

 

Armenian quest for lost orphans

By Dorian Jones

Producer, Masterpiece, BBC World Service

 

 

 

Nahide Kaptan (front row, second from left) was taken in aged nine

Ninety years ago, hundreds of thousands of Armenians died in mass killings that still resonate through Turkey's social and political life.

 

Armenians say that up to 1.5m of their people were deported and died at the hands of the then Ottoman rulers of Turkey.

 

But it is believed that thousands of orphaned Armenian children were saved secretly by Turkish families.

 

Until now, the very existence of the children has remained largely an untold story, buried along with those who died between 1915 and 1916.

 

But the stories of those Armenian orphans are slowly being uncovered by their descendants. Turkish documentary maker Berke Bas is one of those people.

 

Family member Nahide Kaptan was saved in 1915 when she was nine years old. But uncovering the truth still remains a difficult and contentious issue.

 

What happened in 1915 still remains a hotly disputed subject. Armenia, along with the Armenian Diaspora, accuses the then Ottoman rulers of carrying out a "genocide". But Turkey disputes the charge, saying that a few hundred thousand died and that the deaths occurred in a civil war in which many Turks were also killed.

 

Kitchen hideout

 

Selim Deringil, a historian of the late Ottoman period at Istanbul's Bosphorus University, says "what you have is people talking at cross purposes and not really interested in what happened."

 

Professor Deringil himself fell victim to the controversy, being forced to postpone a conference on the subject earlier this year after intense government pressure.

 

This is the biggest issue, Christians becoming Muslims. They don't see themselves as outsiders but they remain silent about their past, afraid

 

Newspaper editor

 

The ongoing controversy can pose problems for those delving into the past.

 

Berke Bas, on returning to her birthplace - the Black Sea city of Ordu - admitted she had concerns.

 

"I am sure there will be people who will approach this with disdain, saying 'Why am I digging up this history?' So many families deny the fact they had Armenian family members."

 

According to Professor Deringil, such stories are not unusual. He says thousands of Armenian children were saved by Turkish families.

 

"We do know that it was on such a scale that the then rulers of the Ottoman Empire issued secret orders to punish families who saved Armenian children."

 

 

Berke returned to her birthplace in her search for the past

The first memory of Nahide for Berke was being told how she was hidden under the kitchen sink, when she first came to the family.

 

After speaking with relatives, Berke discovered that at least five Armenian children were taken in by both sides of her family.

 

But acknowledging Armenian ancestors within Turkish families still remains a taboo for many, according to the editor of the local newspaper.

 

"These children were brought up in Muslim families. This is the biggest issue, Christians becoming Muslims," he said.

 

"They don't see themselves as outsiders but they remain silent about their past, afraid. Now, as a Turk, a Muslim you say that your ancestors were Armenian then you are called a 'Gavur', you are without belief, without a soul, and you are an outcast."

 

'Stunning stories'

 

But despite the reluctance of many to talk about their Armenian ancestry, Berke discovered that Nahide had a brother who survived 1915 and eventually ended up in Istanbul. Although he has since died, it is believed his daughter is still alive.

 

 

Berke returned to Istanbul to try to find her. She visited Agos, a weekly Armenian newspaper.

 

Printing both in Turkish and Armenian, the paper seeks to be a bridge between the 60,000 Istanbul Armenians living in the city and wider Turkish society.

 

Agos editor Hrant Dink says he is inundated by requests from both Turkey and abroad to find Armenian relatives.

 

"The mails I receive, the e-mails, the phone enquiries! The people who knock on my door, they contact me every day," he said.

 

"There are so many people from here and from abroad. They learn that they have a past. They're looking for information, wanting history and references, looking for relatives. I am involved in it personally everyday. There are stunning examples, so many stories reaching me."

[phantom22]

Karen stated "But in Turkey, publicly acknowledge any "gyavoor" blood equals to suicide. And that's in 21 century!"

 

This should show Europe that Turkey is just like Nazi Germany. When is the USA going to stop supporting the Turkish regime?

[Takoush]

Some clarifications.

No, I am not turk. Yes turk chem, yes hye am. Ev shat magur hyeren kxosem dzes het, sakajn bolors hyeren chen haskanum. Dra hamar, xosum em angleren.

Vorov kerpov el apahovem im hyeutjunes?

 

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Karen: As Arpa explained to you just above he/she was concerned about the originator of your source/sources. At first I thought that he/she was also referring about you as well; but my friends as well as myself are concerned about the validity of these so called sources. You see, as we have just been told, the Turks play all kinds of malicious games to deflect us from our attention to show how Armenians would convert to islam and not vice versa.

[phantom22]

Anahid,

 

That the prominent architect Sinan was an Armenian is well known and has been discussed in many Armenian contexts. The other two names are new to me.

 

Please don't approach any of this like the Turks do, outright rejecting what you see. It is possible that the information presented about the other two is true. The Turkish archives have much information about us that we have not been privy to.

 

What happened in the far reaches of the past is inconsequential compared to what is transpiring in the present. Armenian, Greek and Assyrian church properties have been confiscated. It is almost impossible to get a permit in Turkey to get churches repaired.

 

Turks who have converted to Christianity are being persecuted in Turkey at the same time that Turkey is trying to get into the EU.

 

What is discussed here is really not that important. There is nothing wrong with opening our minds. What is important is "keeping our eyes on the ball" when it comes to our rights, and that is meant for Armenians in the Diaspora as well. Armenians in the ROA, within Turkey and in the Diaspora have been wronged by the Turkish state.

 

Let them throw out these possible facts. Are we to be so mentally weak that we allow this type of discussion to divert our focus upon justice for Armenians worldwide?

[Takoush]

Turks who have converted to Christianity are being persecuted in Turkey at the same time that Turkey is trying to get into the EU.

 

What is discussed here is really not that important. There is nothing wrong with opening our minds. What is important is "keeping our eyes on the ball" when it comes to our rights, and that is meant for Armenians in the Diaspora as well. Armenians in the ROA, within Turkey and in the Diaspora have been wronged by the Turkish state.

 

Let them throw out these possible facts. Are we to be so mentally weak that we allow this type of discussion to divert our focus upon justice for Armenians worldwide?

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What exactly are you suggesting Phantom? So now I am thinking like the Turks do because I am cautious and not absolutely sure how some of these old Armenian children left from the Armenian Genocide so they say, as well as the half and half Armenians in the old Armenia now they suddenly appeared and want our support to get out? Don't you think we have to approach this matter with extreme caution knowing very well that since we don't know the very source of these websites we can't jump the gun?

 

And pray tell; who are we to discuss this matter and even try to take action? If truly the sources are exact, then let our organizations and governments first make absolutely sure that these people have first Armenian hearts and souls, they are truly Armenian thinkers and doers and this is not a mere gimmick; then if they will see it fit they'll take action themselves. It is not my job and it is certainly not your job.

 

Please abstain using derogatory sayings as you have used about my way of thinking process.

 

Think again. I certainly am a true Armenian thinker with a true Armenian soul. However I am beginning to think twice about you. Perhaps you're thinking process is more like a Turk?

 

Takouhi

[phantom22]

Anahid Takouhi,

 

I was not referring specifically to you in my post, but to Armenians in general.

 

My thinking process is that of those who initially trained me, primarily old maids who had gone to "normal schools" in the nineteenth century (late 1800's) and my Loosavorchagan Armenian grandmother who had attended French schools. My mother was busy attending to her career.

 

Ara states that Armenian thinking and Turkish thinking are very similar. From my perspective, I would tend to agree with him. After living under the Ottomans for at least 600 years Armenians have been Ottomanized. Other Armenians lived in a Stalinist Regime. The free thinkers under the Soviets all ended up as food for the wolves. The AGBU produced a video showing where all the bodies of the free-thinkers ended up, along with mentioning how their remains were eaten by wolves.

 

I think like an American odar. I do not have an Armenian soul. I can see things more clearly from a perspective.

Edited September 4, 2005 by phantom22

[Takoush]

Anahid Takouhi,

 

My thinking process is that of those who initially trained me, primarily old maids who had gone to "normal schools" in the nineteenth century (late 1800's) and my Loosavorchagan Armenian grandmother who had attended French schools. My mother was busy attending to her career.

 

Ara states that Armenian thinking and Turkish thinking are very similar. From my perspective, I would tend to agree with him. After living under the Ottomans for at least 600 years Armenians have been Ottomanized. Other Armenians lived in a Stalinist Regime. The free thinkers under the Soviets all ended up as food for the wolves. The AGBU produced a video showing where all the bodies of the free-thinkers ended up, along with mentioning how their remains were eaten by wolves.

 

I think like an American odar. I do not have an Armenian soul. I can see things more clearly from a perspective.

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Phantom22:

 

You yourself have suggested in another topic to take everything that I read on this Forum with a grain of salt. Then Why is it that you are believing Ara's previous post suggesting that Armenian thinking and Turkish thinking are very similar. Follow through and please be consistent about what you preach. I disagree about Armenians are similar thinkers to that of Turks.

 

My family are the descendents of the survivors from the Armenian Genocide. They came from the heart of the Armenian Plateau "Partsr Hayk" who lived as an Armenian, breathed Armenian, sang in Armenian and certainly spoke Armenian. I have been brought up by very deeply rooted Armenian free thinking true blue Armenian family. Where I was brought up, we were free to exercise and live as free thinking Armenians. I know, being born in America you become more Americanised than Armenianized (generally speaking). This does not apply to everyone of course. This was not the case for me. We never spoke a word of Turkish at home and I was brought up to be an Armenian individual that I am. We disliked any Turkish sayings, words, music and everything that had to do with any Turkishness. So perhaps, I am not your normal Armenian who is influenced neither by Turkish or by Soviet regime. I have been brought up to be a real Armenian person that I am.

That's why I take it as an offense for what you said.

 

Anahid Takouhi

[phantom22]

Anahid,

 

I repeat, why do you think that I am referring specifically to you?

 

When I agree that Armenians have been Ottomanized, I do not refer to the language or the music, etc. but to the thought process of shutting up those who do not follow the traditional thinking.

 

My family who were from historic Armenia, but had become so well-off that they held properties in Bolise, never listened to Turkish music, etc. My parents only spoke Turkish to one another when they didn't want the children to understand what they were saying, since we knew Armenian well.

 

Both my grandfathers, my mother's sister and brother, all four of my parent's grandparents and whole families of their aunts/uncles/cousins perished in the Genocide.

 

There are individual free-thinking Armenians, yes. This is not what Ara is referring to. It is our institutional hierarchy.

Edited September 4, 2005 by phantom22

[phantom22]

Anahid,

 

I stated that one should view EVERYTHING on the internet with a "grain of salt," not specifically this forum, and that one should get verification from established sources.

 

If you or I were an odar reading Azeri propaganda about Khojaly, you would think that Armenians massacred Azeris, when it was the Azeri leadership who had engineered this to bring the downfall of an Azeri political rival.

Edited September 4, 2005 by phantom22

[Takoush]

Anahid,

 

I stated that one should view EVERYTHING on the internet with a "grain of salt," not specifically this forum, and that one should get verification from established sources.

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If you check my previous post before your post that you have stated about reading information from the Forum with a "grain of salt"; you will see that I have already said that I will have to dig out the information from books about the so called the Armenians' names; then I said, I will verify the validity of the information that I have so read in this Forum.

[Dave]

Yeah, Turks are keeping some two Armenian villages in the villayet of Hatay, next to Musa-Ler. Those are villages of Qnay and Yaggubia, which survived due to intervention of Western Catholic mission

 

I thought that village was called Vakif.

[phantom22]

Anahid,

 

Good that you plan to verify what you read here.

 

I have searched for years to come up with the comments I make here that agitate some. I search the net over the last few years, but before tht my research was always in books in old archives and the like. I have spent many a day with my nose in dusty old papers three floors underground.

[Karen]

Dam, how typical Armenian this is...

 

From an all-Armenian topic we degradated into interpersonal fights. Enough!

 

I am not saying that this whole business of ges-ges Armenians is more than suspicious. It really IS suspicious.

What I am trying to say, that we should look into this with more care and interest, because there MIGHT be some secret Armenians remaining in the Ergir. My best guess is more then several hundred thousand. According to turkish Armenians - about 2 million. But, as I said, numbers don't matter. What matters is that if there is one Armenian village left in turkey, it is our duty, as Armenians, to make sure that Armenian diaspora and ROA are aware of the existance of that village, that the village is allowed to profess its true faith, that it is allowed to have Armenian school, etc., etc. It is about human rights, mostly. But there are much more villages than just one. And what should we do about it? That's the question nobody wants to think about in their comfortable LAs, NYs, Detroits, Bostons, Marselles and Yerevans. Unfortunately, we are as weak as we used to be.

And, once again, nobody is saying that we should help islamized Armenians to get out. To the contrary, we should help them to stay where they are with more protection, with more assurances of their human rights. That will change the ethnic landscape of turkey in our favour.

As far as the validity of reports on islamized Armenians is concerned, I can only say that half of this reports are coming from Armenians themselves, people I know personally, people I totally trust. Chances them being recruited by turkish MIT are pretty low.

The other half of the reports come from "turks", who, starnegly enough, believe they are Armenians, who admit the Genocide, privately acknowledge their Armenian heritage, etc., etc, etc. These are the kind of people I also tend to trust. Not because I want to, but because these kind of people, according to many reports, prove to exist. It's not a sham, not some sort of a turkish "trap". These are islamized ges-ges Armenians, and to expect them to stand in front of Ataturk mossoleum in Ankara, crying "I am Armenian, you hear that, Turks" - is more than naive. But, whether we want it or not, we must work with this people. If we show them or disrespect and indifference, in several generation they will be gone, becoming turks.

[Arpa]

Dam, how typical Armenian this is...

 

From an all-Armenian topic we degradated into interpersonal fights. Enough!

 

I am not saying that this whole business of ges-ges Armenians is more than suspicious. It really IS suspicious.

What I am trying to say, that we should look into this with more care and interest, because there MIGHT be some secret Armenians remaining in the Ergir. My best guess is more then several hundred thousand. According to turkish Armenians - about 2 million. But, as I said, numbers don't matter. What matters is that if there

As far as the validity of reports on islamized Armenians is concerned, I can only,

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(Donmeh/convrt, you have not told us who and what the hell you are and what your screen name means. ATA as in "American Turkish Associaton" or "donmeh" as in "convert", whatever the hell that means? Convert to what from what? Until you do that you will get nothing but challenges to your statements. Until you that we will make minced meat , chevirma, doner kebab of you)

 

It is a wonder and a relief we have not heard from the likes of Djrak and Ludwig of late. My sincere and ardent hope is that they are in the hinterlands of Asia Minor and Persia proseletyzing and preaching to those poor souls and re-converting them to the true faith. Showing them how fortunate and blessed (ne mutlu??) they would be to become Christian Armenians rather than Muslim Turks. Can we really??!!

Good riddance!

Doddamit!

Get off my back!

Go find our "lost brothers" and bring them back to the fold.

Every time I heard my doorbell, be it wooden or virtual I feel like obliging their wish of martyrdom and send them to that "Armenia" in the sky.

 

Goddamit!

 

We have been Christians longer than anyone else. "Go tell it on the Mountains", the mountains of Anatolia, and leave us alone, we who may know about the "message" than they ever will.

Ejmiatsin may have its work cut ou for it, with millions of poor souls waking up from a century of spiritual void. What is the excuse of the diaspora for having four churches in communities of a couple thousand of which more than half don't even subscribe to an Armenian church?

How much spiritual guidance do we need?

Why is not one priest/miniister/pastor enough to minister to our needs and spare the rest to go and preach to our "lost brothers".

Are we not repeating the sins of the missionaries of yore who found it to be easier to re-convert the coverts(Armenian) rather than risk their lives trying to convert the infidel(read Muslim). And there may still be those who wonder why 'there are Armenian Protestants".

Is it because some people preach to the 'unpreached"?

 

We have been preached up to her!

 

In other words; Go preach to the unpreached!

 

Goddamait!!

Edited September 5, 2005 by Arpa

[Arpa]

Is this why our "fearless missionaries" come here and preach to us?

This is one of many. You may find more about Turkey, Iran and others. Oddly enough Armenia and Azerbaijan are fetured, even if Armenia has been cited by many other orgs and governments for mistreating the like of Jehovah's etc.

This is of course our "staunch ally". See higlights (by me), specially that of the US Ambassador.

 

=======

http://www.compassdirect.org/en/index.php

 

30/08/2005

TURKEY : PROTESTANTS FACE PERSONAL ABUSE

Violent attacks continue despite government’s EU reforms.

August 30 (Compass) -- Bektas Erdogan never expected his Christian faith of 11 years to jeopardize his career as a fashion designer in Turkey.

Hired five months ago by a designer jeans company in the Beyazit district of Istanbul, Erdogan was assured by his Muslim boss that he would be evaluated on the basis of his work, not his religion.

After his first collection sold successfully in Russia, Erdogan thought the phone call he received earlier this month from his employer -- asking him to come to work on a Sunday afternoon -- boded well. Maybe there was a surprise company dinner.

But that evening at the shop, his supervisor angrily accused him of “missionary work” and “brainwashing.” With the help of two employees and a relative, he beat Erdogan for two hours. The men repeatedly struck the designer’s head and face with their fists and the butt of a pistol. Three times Erdogan’s boss attempted to shoot him, but the gun failed to fire.

“He really wanted to kill me. It wasn’t just to scare me,” said Erdogan, who told Compass that he prayed for help and meditated on Bible verses while his attackers threatened to murder him and hide his body.

His co-workers released the 32-year-old Erdogan with a swollen and bloody face around 9 p.m., warning that they would kill him later. Since then, he has received three anonymous phone calls threatening his life.

Erdogan did not report the August 7 incident to the police, fearing that his boss’ ties with local officials might make him the target of further aggression. He also felt that once the authorities learned he was a Christian, they would be unwilling to help.

He believes that his employer’s anger stemmed from shop employees’ interest in Christianity. During his last three months at the job, Erdogan said, “Almost every meal [at work] became a question-and-answer session about my religion.”

Plainclothes Police Brutality

Erdogan is not the only victim of increasingly overt, anti-Christian sentiment within Turkish society. On the same day that he was attacked, Istanbul police beat two Protestant converts in their early twenties and told them they could not be both Turks and Christians.

Umit and Murat-Can, who asked to have their last names withheld, were on their way to one of Istanbul’s 25 Turkish-speaking Protestant churches on August 7 when they saw American David Byle and his 3-year-old daughter surrounded by a small crowd of police and civilians.

Byle had been exercising the legal right to distribute Christian tracts on Istiklal Caddesi, one of Istanbul’s main pedestrian thoroughfares, when two plainclothes policemen accosted him. One of them grabbed his chin and shouted at him for distributing literature, quickly drawing a crowd of police and passersby.

When the two Christians tried to intervene on behalf of Byle, whom they recognized as a member of a local church, a scuffle broke out between Umit and one of the plainclothes policemen. According to Murat-Can, about 15 policemen forced Umit to the ground, where they kicked and hit him before handcuffing him and carrying him inside a nearby building.

“That’s when I first realized they were police,” said Umit, whose plainclothes attacker never identified himself as an officer. The policemen continued to beat Umit for three minutes before taking him to a local police station with Murat-Can, who had followed the group inside.

“They never showed us any ID or read us our rights,” Murat-Can told Compass as he described the following hour in the police station. After finding 100 Christian tracts in Murat-Can’s backpack, police accused the youths of being “missionaries” who were bent on “dividing Turkey.” Although finally releasing them without filing any formal report, they told the young men that they could not be both Turks and Christians.

In another incident last month in Eskisehir (120 miles southeast of Istanbul), three strangers in Kanli Kavak park assaulted Protestant Salih Kurtbas. They attacked him from behind at 6 p.m. as he waited for an anonymous caller who had asked to meet and discuss Christianity.

Shortly after arriving home with a bloody nose, split lip, black eyes and a swollen ear, he received an irate phone call from his attackers. They accused him of missionary activity and threatened to kill anyone associated with a local U.S. businessman whom they claimed was spreading Christian propaganda.

Eskisehir evangelicals have faced constant delays in obtaining legal permission to start the city’s first Protestant church. “We applied to the governor and haven’t received an answer, and the city government has said that the building is not up to earthquake safety standards,” Kurtbas told Compass. “Everything’s kind of gone downhill.”

Kurtbas didn’t even think of going to the police, explaining, “If they found out that I was a Christian, nothing good would have come of it.” Umit also wanted to avoid further problems with authorities, fearing that legal proceedings might hurt his brother’s chances of entering the police academy.

Fear of Court

“These sort of attacks are not shocking for me,” admitted Orhan Kemal Cengiz, legal consultant for Turkey’s Alliance of Protestant Churches (APC). “I was expecting them … but [Christians] should take this very seriously.”

With European Union (EU) accession talks looming on October 3, Turkey is attempting to improve its human rights image. A package of legal reforms passed in June reasserted freedom of religion, instituting a three-year prison sentence for anyone obstructing the expression of religious beliefs.

But the EU has remained skeptical, challenging officially 99-percent-Muslim Turkey to implement these religious freedoms among its non-Muslim minority communities. Fewer than 100,000 citizens follow the ancient Christian traditions of the Armenian, Greek and Syrian Othodox churches, which remain exclusively ethnic congregations.

By contrast, the emerging community of an estimated 3,500 Turkish Protestants challenges the centuries-old perception that to be a Turk is to be a Muslim.

Over the last 10 months, violence against Protestant Christians in Turkey has become publicly visible, prompting former U.S. Ambassador to Turkey Eric Edelman to make formal inquiries with Ankara officials in April and again in June regarding 10 incidents.

“Turkey is not aware of the gravity of the problem,” Cengiz said. “Some officials have good intentions, but I have a strong suspicion that they don’t really grasp the freedom of religion issues.”

While most Turkish Protestants remain reluctant to open court cases for fear of further persecution, others feel that the church can gain from aggressive legal action without undermining its message of love.

“I’m a big fan of opening a court case,” APC spokesperson Isa Karatas told Compass. “When we look at things from a Christian perspective, of course we need to be forgiving. But this is not an obstacle for us to pursue our rights.”

Cengiz, the legal consultant to the APC, also advises that abuse victims go to court to protect themselves. “If you do not file a case against the police, you may find yourself before a court or even in jail, in spite of the fact that you are the victim of police misconduct,” Cengiz said. Turkish law enforcers often sue abuse victims preemptively, Cengiz said, in order to shield officers from legal prosecution.

Turkish Protestant church leaders have opened seven libel cases this year against three TV stations to combat accusations aired nationally. Statements on the television programs claimed that local Christians spy for foreign governments that pay Turks to change their religion.

In the face of anti-Christian rhetoric from some government officials and the latest attacks against Protestants, many Turkish Christians admit that they are not expecting either the government or society to change overnight.

“There is a segment of the government that supports anti-Christian sentiment, but along with this section is a larger segment that opposes it,” Karatas of APC told Compass. He said that if Christians who suffered persecution for their faith “would open court cases now, I believe they would receive support from the government.”

“In theory we have a free environment,” Umit told Compass only 10 days after being beaten by the police. “I don’t think that there is a problem with the state. But the Turkish people have not yet understood democracy. They still see the state as a father. They don’t know that it’s meant to serve us. Therefore, when people working for the state say something bad about Christians, the people believe it.”

Despite ongoing death threats, Erdogan has no plans to leave the country. When asked how he felt about losing his job, enduring a severe beating and being threatened with death -- all in one evening -- he smiled. Even if his situation doesn’t improve, he said, “God tells me to rejoice, because He can bring glory to His name.”

[phantom22]

Thank you, Arpa.

 

This kind of news should be disseminated throughout the capitols of Northern Europe, North America and Australia.

 

Turkey is at a crossroads, either she reforms herself or she will become a pariah in the eyes of the world community. The microscope is on her and so far she has scored an "F."

[Ata Donme]

Thanks  For the Link - good  info  -  most of  it  i have been  loking for  some  time now

Thanks

 

MOvses

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Anytime, great leader!

slthough, I back track about Mumtaz being an Armenian, though certainly the wife of Emperor Akbar was, and so was his step-son.

[Ata Donme]

I respectfully apologyze, but who is this Mr. Ata Donmeh? Turkish provocator?

 

Honestly, what Indian princess or Iranian poet have to do with Armenian converts? I see no relation.

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Fascinating links, I will look them up.

 

Do you live in Turkey? You surely know what 'Donme' means?

It means convert!

It is a take on Mustafa Kemal's Jewish Ancestry!

LOL!

So even if I had chosen a username like 'Turkish Ars*hole' you would automatically gnash your teeth and type frentically that I am a Turkish provocator lol!

 

Arpashkvili wrote:

 

"I t is beyond me how some of us will be sucked into such a blatant trap set by an obvious Turk whose only aim is to solicit and elicit off color comments, and in doing so to hijack the debate and deflect our attention. It is obvious that the originator of this thread is a Turk, openly and brazenly using a Turkish nickname and reinforcing it by declaring his connection to ATA (American Turkish Association, the nemesis of the Armenian Assembly and ANCA)."

 

Oh dear me, the 'Nobility' has also no idea of this play on a name!

My god they say the Americans have no sense of Irony!

Ooo a blatant trap, discussing ignored aspects of Armenian History!

Off colour, my oh my! Discussing aspects of our history, such as those who converted or rose to power in Islamic countries is off colour oooo sooorrrrryyy! lol!

Hijack what debate, most of what I read here prior to joining was literal mass-debation

Look at how many times this thread has been viewed, over 1,000 times, that says something surely?

That people like to read new subjects!

 

Or maybe it is because Lord Arpashkvili did not come up with this thread himself? mmmm?

[Ata Donme]

Barev Karen,

I had no doubt.

I think that whole confusion about your ethnicity was due to a misreading of my post above where I was alluding to the original originator of the thread. Please all, reread my post and look at who the originator is and what their purpose is.

Let us not get carried away and place our big feet in our mouths,and as Dave says, this whole charade is to deflect our attention and in a subtle way to show how Armenians would convert to Islam and not visa versa.

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Poor Arpaskvili, it is clear he is upset how a popular thread like this with 1,000 viewings could be thought up by a newbie like me.

And pity his inibility to see Irony in my username 'Ata Donme' i.e. Father of Converts...

Armenians in history did convert to Islam, mostly by force, but some in the case of Emir Karaman and Emir Danishmend, did so for personal gain, becoming rulers of Emirates.

So the purpose of this Thread is to highlight such famous characters who were Armenian, religion aside.

After all, we all praise Takavor Tigran, but he was a pagan, so does that mean he is not Armenian? lol!

 

Arpashkvili, you are conducting a fine charade of illustrating Hyots culture to the masses!

[Ata Donme]

Karen:  As Arpa explained to you just above he/she was concerned about the originator of your source/sources.  At first I thought that he/she was also referring about you as well; but my friends as well as myself are concerned about the validity of these so called sources.  You see, as we have just been told, the Turks play all kinds of malicious games to deflect us from our attention to show how Armenians would convert to islam and not vice versa.

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Oh dear me these is getting hilarious!

I thought the Germans had no sense of humour!

 

But these 'so called sources' come from the online Wikipedia

 

Oh it is sooo malicious, discussing the taboo that Armenians converted to Islam in history

[Ata Donme]

Let them throw out these possible facts. Are we to be so mentally weak that we allow this type of discussion to divert our focus upon justice for Armenians worldwide?

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Phaanton22, the focus of this popular thread is to highlight the fact that some Armenians in history converted to Islam, if it piss*ss anyone off here then they should go to the graves of these people and p*ss on them if it makes them feel sooo Armenian

[MosJan]

ok i'm going to close the topick for now

 

.....

 

Just a friendly reminder to all of you !!!

Tray to engage in civilized discussions - no harsh words / Language or personal attacks & insults

 

It will be nice if you can use that energy for something productive instead of getting on each others neck

 

 

MOvses

[MosJan]

Մահմեդականացված հայերի որոշ մասը եկել է Հայաստան

[ 2009/06/20 | 14:58 ] հասարակություն

Շուշան Ստեփանյան http://hetq.am/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/tvardanyan_150409.jpg«Ընդհանրապես չի կարելի կիրառել մահմեդական հայ հասկացությունը, այդպիսի բառակապակցություն գոյություն չունի: Մենք պետք է կիրառենք մահմեդականացված հայերի սերունդներ»,-այսպիսի խորհուրդ տվեց Հայելի ակումբում պատմաբան Թամարա Վարդանյանը:

 

«Իսկ բուդդիստ ամերիկացին նորմալ է՞» հարցին Թ. Վարդանյանը պատասխանեց, որ հայկական ինքնության մասին խոսելիս չի կարելի առաջնորդվել ընդունված տեսություններով: «Ազգերը իրենց ինքնության մակարդակով տարբեր են: Հայկական ինքնությունը շատ ավելի ձեւավորված եւ կայացած է, ուստի առաջնորդվելով այլ կատեգորիաներով` կընկնենք թակարդը: Ամերիկացին դա քաղաքացիություն է, եւ նրանք էթնիկ ընդհանրություն չունեն»,-ասաց Թամարա Վարդանյանը:

 

21-րդ դարում էլ, ըստ պատմաբանի, ինքնության խնդիրներում գործում է նույն տրամաբանությունը, ինչ առաջներում: Սակայն օրինակ Ադրբեջանն ու Վրաստանը սկսել են ավելի կարեւորել այդ հարցը, քան նրանց նախնիները. «Նրանք առաջ են քաշում մեկ ազգ, մեկ կրոն հասկացությունները: Այս տենդեցները մենք պետք է տեսնենք: Ադրբեջանում այսօր այլ ուղղություն են որդեգրել` ադրբեջանական իսլամ, ազգայնացված իսլամ»:

 

Ըստ պատմաբանի` ինքնությունն ազգային անվտանգության կատեգորիա է եւ դրա լղոզումը մարտահրավեր է. «Մահմեդականացված հայերի որոշ մասը եկել է Հայաստան, որոշ մասը Ստամբուլում է: Հայրենադարձները շատ կարեւոր քայլ են կատարել, բայց կարեւոր է, թե այդ սերունդների մոտ հայրենիքի գիտակցությունն առկա է արդյոք, եւ որն է նրանց հայրենիքը: Ստամբուլի հայերի համար իրենց հայրենիքը Թուրքիան է, նրանք աշխատում են Թուրքիայի բարեկեցության համար»:

 

Հայերի կողմից մահմեդականության ընդունումը պատմաբանի կարծիքով նշանակում է նաեւ նրանց աշխարհայացքի փոփոխություն, իսկ եթե հայը մահմեդականացվել է հանգամանքների բերումով, ապա «նրանք պետք է ապրեն, գոյատեւեն վերադարձի գաղափարով, եթե այդ չկա, ուրեմն նրանք հեռանկար չունեն»:

 

http://hetq.am/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/20_06-G-Yazchyan.jpgՊատմաբան Գեւորգ Յազըճյանն էլ կարծում է, որ հայերը իսլամացել են բռնի ուժով. «Բայց միայն հայախոս քրիստոնյային էլ հայ չի կարելի համարել: Հայաստանում կան հայերի հին հավատքի դավանորդներ, ուստի վերցնել բանաձեւը` հայը հավասար է հայ քրիստոնյային, ուրեմն նրանք հայեր չեն, անհեթեթություն է»:

 

Բանախոսը գտնում է, որ մահմեդական կրոն դավանողն իրեն հայ չի համարում. «Հայաստանը միակ երկրներից է, որտեղ իսլամական համայնք գոյություն չունի, դրանք քաղցկեղի նման են, դրանք կկլանեն եւ կփոխեն: Մեր պետությունը պատրաստ չի, մենք ազգային անվտանգություն չունենք, սրանք ազգային անվտանգության խնդիրներ են: Թուրքիայում այս հարցերով զբաղվում է իրենց ԱԱԾ-ի 6-րդ գլխավոր վարչությունը, որը կոչվում է հոգեբանական պաշտպանության, ուրեմն դա պետական խնդիր է նրանց համար: Ես չգիտեմ` մեր ԱԱԾ-ն նման հարցերով գոնե հետաքրքրվում է»:

 

Նա դժբախտություն որակեց ցուցանիշը, որ երեք հազար սփյուռքահայերից միայն մեկն է Հայաստանի քաղաքացիություն ստանում. «Ուրեմն չկա հավատք պետության նկատմամբ»:

 

Յազըճյանը հիմարություն է համարում նաեւ Հայաստանում տարածված այն տեսակետը, թե հայ ազգը բաղկացած է տարբեր էթնոսներից. «Այս տեսակետը արտահայտել էր նաեւ Իգոր Մուրադյանը, եթե ազգայնի անվտանգությունը գոյություն ունի, պետք է նրանից բացատրություն պահանջեր: Հայաստանում ապրում եւ ռուսերեն են խոսում օրինակ Իգոր Մուրադյանը, Ալեքսանդր Իսկանդարյանը, Ռուբեն Սահակյանցը, ուրեմն նրանք այս պետության նկատմամբ հավատք չունեն: Իսկ հայությունը չունի ինքնության խնդիր: Մեզ համար ինչ-ինչ անբարյացակամ տրամադրված ուժեր ստեղծում են ինքնության խնդիր»:

 

Օրինաչափություններ գոյություն ունեն, որոնց վրայով, ըստ Յազըճյանի, չպետք է ցատկել. «Ինչպես Սերժ Սարգսյանը Նյու-Յորքում հաճոյանալու համար ասաց, թե մենք ինչու մշակութային, լեզվական, կրոնական տարբերություններ դնենք: Այ սիրելիս, ինչպես է այդ դեպքում որոշվում հայը»: