Ata Donme Posted August 28, 2005 Report Share Posted August 28, 2005 This is a Topic to post research on Armenians who converted to Islam, and inadvertedly helped build Turkey. For starters I can give you 3 classic examples: 1) Karamanoglu Mehmed Bey in 1246 captures the Greek town of Laranda, near Konya, and renames it Karaman, thus founding the Karaman Emirate. He was born a christian Armenian in Cilicia. 2) Malik Danishmand also in the 13th century serving in the Seljuk Sultanate of Konya, rebels and founds his own Emirate based around Sivas. He mints coins with the Armenian cross on it, well that was because he too was born a christian Armenian. 3) Sinan the master architect of the 16th century Ottoman Empire was born a christian Armenian, from Cilicia, by then under Ottoman control. You see compatriots, the more you look into Turkish history, the more you see it as Armeno-Greek culture with a Islamic veneer... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantom22 Posted August 28, 2005 Report Share Posted August 28, 2005 There were also numerous Armenians who took Turkish names, assimilated into Turkish ways but MAINTAINED their Christian religion who were instrumental in building Turkey. All this is now buried so that present-day Turkey can feel comfortable with its myths. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted August 29, 2005 Report Share Posted August 29, 2005 (edited) 3) Sinan the master architect of the 16th century Ottoman Empire was born a christian Armenian, from Cilicia, by then under Ottoman control. A small correction - Sinan was not born in Cilicia. He was born in an Armenian village near Kesaria (Kayseri). 2) Malik Danishmand also in the 13th century serving in the Seljuk Sultanate of Konya, rebels and founds his own Emirate based around Sivas. He mints coins with the Armenian cross on it, well that was because he too was born a christian Armenian. Is this the coin you're talking about? http://www.islamicart.com/main/coins/s_armenia.html King Hetoum of Lesser Armenia was one of the few Armenian Kings who established good relations with Lesser Armenia's Islamic neighbours, rather than with the Crusaders. The coin with Armenian on one side and Arabic on the other side clearly depicts this rare Seljuk-Armenian friendship... I don't think it has to do anything with the origins or that Seljuk emir. There was one Cilician Armenian King who converted to Islam - Mleh. He was King from 1169 to 1175. He converted to Islam before he even became King, and he was very close with Nureddin, the Sultan of Aleppo. Mleh despised the Byzantine Empire, probably because the Byzantines occupied Cilicia for 7 years. Mleh persecuted the Armenian clergymen, who obviously didn't like him because of his religion and beacause of closer relations with Aleppo. So in the end, he was killed during an Armenian rebellion in Sis. Edited August 29, 2005 by Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ata Donme Posted August 29, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 29, 2005 Also worth noting, though prior to the Turkish era of Anatolia, is the number of Armenians who rose to prominance in the Abbasid and Fatimid Caliphate from the 9th century onwards. Of course in order to get to the position of Emir of Vizier they converted to Islam. Some information can be found here Al Ahram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ata Donme Posted August 29, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 29, 2005 (edited) Armenians in India During the Moghul period of India, Armenians rose to prominance, some as adopted sons of Emperors, others as governors of Indian cities. One even has a tomb in Delhi near the Masjid Mosque and is venerated by Muslims and Hindus, even though he was a Christian. A great deal of information can be found Here Though outside the main topic of Muslim Armenians/ Armenians in Muslim countries, that website also discusses the startling revelation that there were Indian colonies in Armenia by 149 BC ! Read on in that page and you will find out... Edited September 11, 2007 by Zartonk Typo correction Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ata Donme Posted August 29, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 29, 2005 The ' ian' ending of Muslim Iranian surnames. Is it possible that the number of Iranian surnames that end in ' ian' derive from Armenian ancestors who converted to Islam, yet retained their surnames? A typical example is the classical Iranian musician Mohammed Reza Shajarian, see more here Another example is Indian actress Perizaad Zorabian, see more here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantom22 Posted August 29, 2005 Report Share Posted August 29, 2005 The Taj Mahal was built by the grieving Moghul husband of an Armenian princess, in her honor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takoush Posted August 29, 2005 Report Share Posted August 29, 2005 The Taj Mahal was built by the grieving Moghul husband of an Armenian princess, in her honor. style_images/master/snapback.png I never knew that. Live and learn. Takouhi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artaxias Posted August 29, 2005 Report Share Posted August 29, 2005 I never knew that. Live and learn. Takouhi style_images/master/snapback.png Because it's not true http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shah_Jahan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takoush Posted August 29, 2005 Report Share Posted August 29, 2005 Because it's not true http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shah_Jahan style_images/master/snapback.png Artaxias; I feel foolish, I didn't read the posts previous to Phantom's post and I took it for real. I didn't realize that he was joking or being sarcastic about it. Oops I goofed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted August 29, 2005 Report Share Posted August 29, 2005 Because it's not true http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shah_Jahan style_images/master/snapback.png Sorry Artaxias your wrong she was Armenian please see >>> http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=7382&hl= or just do a search on the web http://www.luxurytour.com/travcoa/orientch...bangladesh.html Built in 1872, Ahsan Manzil Museum was the home of the Nawab (ruler) of Dhaka. On the bank of the River Buriganga, the majestic pink Ahsan Manzil has been renovated and turned into a museum of the nation’s rich cultural heritage. It now has 23 galleries displaying portraits, furniture and household articles used by the Nawab. In Armanitola there was an Armenian colony of wealthy landlords in the mid-19th-century. The Armenian Church, built in 1781, is still being maintained with care. Lalbagh Fort was built in 1678 by Prince Mohammad Azam, son of Mughal Emperor Aurangazeb. Outstanding among the monuments of the Lalbagh Fort are the tomb of Pari Bibi (Fairy Lady), Lalbagh Mosque, an elegant Audience Hall and the Hammam (public bath) of Nawab Shaista Khan, now housing a museum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arvestaked Posted August 29, 2005 Report Share Posted August 29, 2005 (edited) There is a great rise in numbers within two groups of Armenians: those that want to convert and be ethnically Black American and those that want to convert and be ethnically Mexican. A major social study should be funded to really get an understanding of these strange and useless people and the implications of the nature of culture that manifest themselves in this perplexing phenomenon. Edited August 29, 2005 by Arvestaked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted August 29, 2005 Report Share Posted August 29, 2005 Armenian Community or the Armenians of India war one of the richest at one time the money that was left by them for Free and independent Armenia was on "hold" by Indian government - end was paid to Soviet Armenia part by part - many of you might remember the Indian moves and souvenirs that was flooding eth stores in Armenia - that was part of the $$$$$$$$$ money that India was holding for free and independent Armenia The "Big Politicians" at the Kom-Aygi Park was saying that it's big money KomAygi was a park in center of Yerevan during the Soviet times - and a popular ground for elders of the city to spend time and talk politics - some say that distraction of Soviet union was blueprinted in this park by our "big politicians" during a game of chess or Nardi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted August 29, 2005 Report Share Posted August 29, 2005 poet SARMAD Sarmad, a convert to Sufism from an Armenian Jewish ? family in Iran, arrives in Sind around 1631 and soon becomes (in)famous for his passionate love of a Hindu boy named Abhay Chand; he wanders naked in the streets, reciting Persian poetry. A defender of Dara Shikoh's, he is executed by Aurangzeb around 1661/2. Discussion: Link > http://www.crda-france.org/fr/6histoire/pa...nde_sarmad1.htm Some of his work > 1/ Thou hast made thyself famous in winning hearts, Also in the art of friendship and affection, Those eyes which are vigilant are observant of thyself; Every moment thou showest thyself in a hundred colors. - 2/ If I am a devotee, my object is the Friend, What have I to do with the rosary and the sacerdotal thread ! This woolen garment wherein lie a hundred evils Never shall I put on my shoulder : it is disgusting to me. - 3/ Our every-day avocation is villainy and wickedness. Our flatterers and vessels have been filled with sins. Creation is laughing and life is wailing At our prayers, genuflections and fastings. - 4/ Sarmad is a body, his soul is in the hand of another: An arrow, but its bow is in the hand of another. He wished to be a man in order to jump out of the nest. He became a cow whose tether is in the hand of another. -5/ Not only are these temples and sanctuaries His house This earth and this sky are entirely His abode. The whole world is mad about His fictions. He is truly mad who is mad about Him. - 6/ His tyrannous passion, ho ! is Satan : Always visible, yet hidden. Thou art thyself the Devil, why are thou ill-disposed to the Devil? Before thy thoughts, he is bewildered. - 7/ Sarmad ! If He is true to his word, He Himself will come : If His coming is permissible, He Himself will come. Why shouldst thou wander aimlessly after Him? Sit down : if He be the Khud-a(*3) ; He Himself will come. - 8/ Sarmad ! the pang of love is not given to the self-seeking, The fire in the heart of the moth is not given to the fly. It takes a life-time for the beloved to come to the lap : This everlasting wealth is not given to every one. - 9/ Although a hundred friends have turned mine enemies, Owing to the friendship of the one, my mind has become contented. I have accepted Unity and been freed from multiplicity At last I became of Him and He of me. - 10/ He who gave thee the sovereignty of the world, Gave me all the causes of anxiety. He covered with a garment those with whom He found fault. To the faultless He gave the robe of nudity.(*4) - 11/ O King of Kings. I am not a hermit like thee, I am not nude, I am frenzied, I am distracted, but I am not depressed, I am an idolator, I am an infidel, I am not of the people of the faith, I go towards the mosque, but I am not a Mussulman. - 12/ Pass on from the wordly fancy, thought and care. Like the breeze of morn pass on from the garden and field. Be not mad on the colour and smell of the rose and wine, Be wise, pass on from these hallucinations. - 13/ Sarmad ! thou shouldst shorten thy murmurings. Thou shouldst adopt one course out of these two courses— Either, thou shouldst give thy body for the pleasure of the Friend; Or, thou shouldst sacrifice thy life in His way. - 14/ To put trust in the promises of the man of the world is wrong : Yea wrong, verily wrong to-night wrong, to-morrow wrong. Of the copy of the inquiry of our Book of life do not ask. Its transcriptions are wrong, meaning wrong, composition wrong, and spellings wrong. - 15/ I have no business with the fancy and thought of others. In composing a ghazal, I adopt the manner of Hafez. But in a rubai (quatrain) I am the disciple of Khayyam, But do not quaff much of his wine.(*5) - 16/ Sarmad ! speak not of the Kaaba and of the temple. In the valley of doubt do not wander like the strayed wayfarer. Go and learn from Satan(*6) how to worship. Accept one qebla and do not bow before every stranger. - 17/ Say, who is in the world that has not committed a sin? He who has sinned not : say, how could he live? I do evil thou requitest with evil, Then say, what is the difference between me and thee? - 18/ Sometimes thou are a cypress, sometimes a hyacinth and sometimes a jasmine, Now a mountain, a wilderness, and at another time a flower-garden. Now thou are the light of a candle, now the scent of a rose, Sometimes thou art in a garden, and sometimes in an assembly. - 19/ Sarmad ! thou hast done strange injury to the religion, Thou hast bartered thy faith for one with an intoxicating eye. With supplication and belief —thy entire wealth— Thou didst go and squander on an idol-worshipper.(*7) - 20/ He who believed in the secret of esoteric doctrine, Became more expanded than the expanded heavens. The Mulla [doctor] says that Ahmad [Mohammad] went up to heaven, Sarmad says that heaven came down into Ahmad [Mohammed ](*8) (*1) Kaaba is the inner part of the temple at Mecca. "Hajrul Aswad", or the black stone, has come down from the time of heathenism in Arabia, and is venerated by the pilgrims who flock to Mecca every year from all parts of the Mohammedan world. (*2) A "qalandar" is a darwish of a different sect. (*3) "Khuda" is here used in a double sense. "Khuda" is the Persian word God and "Khud-a" means a self-comer. (*4) Sarmad's clothes' philosophy or "Sartor resartus" is beautifully expressed in this quatrain. (*5) Sarmad who himself was a great poet, pays a well-deserved compliment to two of the greatest poets of Persia—Hafiz the master of "ghazal", justly called the Anacreon of the East and Omar Khayyam, the tent-maker philosopher of Nishapur whose quatrains are greatly admired in the East and in the West. (*6) According to Mohammedan tradition, the Devil fell for refusing to pay homage to Adam at the command of God. (*7) In this beautiful quatrain, Sarmad apparently refers to his prosperous and happy days at Thatta, his love for the Hindoo lad Abhai Chand, his neglect of his flourishing business as a merchant and his renunciation of the exoteric religion of Islam, being a faithful follower of the esoteric doctrine of the Safis. (*8) This fatal distitch brought on his head the wrath of the Emperor Aurungzebe—the bigot, the fanatic and the assassin— and he was beheaded by the order of the Emperor for blasphemy, in 1661 A.D. the capital city of Delhi where his grave can be seem to this day. “Armenians in India”, Mesrovb Jacob SETH, Calcutta 1937, (pp 188-192) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takoush Posted August 30, 2005 Report Share Posted August 30, 2005 Because it's not true http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shah_Jahan style_images/master/snapback.png Artaxias: So, my perception was right about Phantom's post being true and you chuckled at me for nothing. You see I was right. Anahid Takouhi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakharar Posted August 30, 2005 Report Share Posted August 30, 2005 That the wife of Shah Jahan was Armenian is news to me and very unlikely. Just like some people still claim that Gregory Peck or Gwen Stefani are Armenian. I couldn't find anything Armenian about her: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumtaz_Mahal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantom22 Posted August 30, 2005 Report Share Posted August 30, 2005 This was stated in an article that I read. I believe that it was in Groong. It appears that the article was wrong about this. Obviously someone mistook Persian for Armenian. As for Peck, this all stated when my French Armenian cousin visited me in Hermosa Beach shortly after having dinner with her husband's cousins in Bel Air who were next door neighbors with Veronique and Gregory Peck. They told me that the cousins told them Peck was part Armenian and was taking Armenian lessons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takoush Posted August 30, 2005 Report Share Posted August 30, 2005 As for Peck, this all stated when my French Armenian cousin visited me in Hermosa Beach shortly after having dinner with her husband's cousins in Bel Air who were next door neighbors with Veronique and Gregory Peck. They told me that the cousins told them Peck was part Armenian and was taking Armenian lessons. style_images/master/snapback.png I have also heard that Gregory Peck was part Armenian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted August 30, 2005 Report Share Posted August 30, 2005 This is a Topic to post research on Armenians who converted to Islam, and inadvertedly helped build Turkey. The Balian family of architects built many Ottoman palaces, mosques, and Armenian churches, and they didn't convert to Islam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ata Donme Posted August 30, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2005 The Taj Mahal was built by the grieving Moghul husband of an Armenian princess, in her honor. style_images/master/snapback.png Yes, if you read this page you will find out more about her It is very startling when learning these things, just how global our people have been in the past, as they are now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ata Donme Posted August 30, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2005 There is a great rise in numbers within two groups of Armenians: those that want to convert and be ethnically Black American and those that want to convert and be ethnically Mexican. A major social study should be funded to really get an understanding of these strange and useless people and the implications of the nature of culture that manifest themselves in this perplexing phenomenon. style_images/master/snapback.png Jeex, your telling me! I wonder what will happen to the CA Armenian youth in time! BUUUUTTTTTTTTT thats outside this topic! Lets just say that these kind of topics show that not all us Diasporans have sold out and retain a keen interest in our culture and history, and of course, our future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ata Donme Posted August 30, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2005 poet SARMAD Sarmad, a convert to Sufism from an Armenian Jewish ? family in Iran, arrives in Sind around 1631 and soon becomes (in)famous for his passionate love of a Hindu boy named Abhay Chand; he wanders naked in the streets, reciting Persian poetry. A defender of Dara Shikoh's, he is executed by Aurangzeb around 1661/2. Discussion: Link > http://www.crda-france.org/fr/6histoire/pa...nde_sarmad1.htm Some of his work > 1/ Thou hast made thyself famous in winning hearts, Also in the art of friendship and affection, Those eyes which are vigilant are observant of thyself; Every moment thou showest thyself in a hundred colors. - 2/ If I am a devotee, my object is the Friend, What have I to do with the rosary and the sacerdotal thread ! This woolen garment wherein lie a hundred evils Never shall I put on my shoulder : it is disgusting to me. - 3/ Our every-day avocation is villainy and wickedness. Our flatterers and vessels have been filled with sins. Creation is laughing and life is wailing At our prayers, genuflections and fastings. - 4/ Sarmad is a body, his soul is in the hand of another: An arrow, but its bow is in the hand of another. He wished to be a man in order to jump out of the nest. He became a cow whose tether is in the hand of another. -5/ Not only are these temples and sanctuaries His house This earth and this sky are entirely His abode. The whole world is mad about His fictions. He is truly mad who is mad about Him. - 6/ His tyrannous passion, ho ! is Satan : Always visible, yet hidden. Thou art thyself the Devil, why are thou ill-disposed to the Devil? Before thy thoughts, he is bewildered. - 7/ Sarmad ! If He is true to his word, He Himself will come : If His coming is permissible, He Himself will come. Why shouldst thou wander aimlessly after Him? Sit down : if He be the Khud-a(*3) ; He Himself will come. - 8/ Sarmad ! the pang of love is not given to the self-seeking, The fire in the heart of the moth is not given to the fly. It takes a life-time for the beloved to come to the lap : This everlasting wealth is not given to every one. - 9/ Although a hundred friends have turned mine enemies, Owing to the friendship of the one, my mind has become contented. I have accepted Unity and been freed from multiplicity At last I became of Him and He of me. - 10/ He who gave thee the sovereignty of the world, Gave me all the causes of anxiety. He covered with a garment those with whom He found fault. To the faultless He gave the robe of nudity.(*4) - 11/ O King of Kings. I am not a hermit like thee, I am not nude, I am frenzied, I am distracted, but I am not depressed, I am an idolator, I am an infidel, I am not of the people of the faith, I go towards the mosque, but I am not a Mussulman. - 12/ Pass on from the wordly fancy, thought and care. Like the breeze of morn pass on from the garden and field. Be not mad on the colour and smell of the rose and wine, Be wise, pass on from these hallucinations. - 13/ Sarmad ! thou shouldst shorten thy murmurings. Thou shouldst adopt one course out of these two courses— Either, thou shouldst give thy body for the pleasure of the Friend; Or, thou shouldst sacrifice thy life in His way. - 14/ To put trust in the promises of the man of the world is wrong : Yea wrong, verily wrong to-night wrong, to-morrow wrong. Of the copy of the inquiry of our Book of life do not ask. Its transcriptions are wrong, meaning wrong, composition wrong, and spellings wrong. - 15/ I have no business with the fancy and thought of others. In composing a ghazal, I adopt the manner of Hafez. But in a rubai (quatrain) I am the disciple of Khayyam, But do not quaff much of his wine.(*5) - 16/ Sarmad ! speak not of the Kaaba and of the temple. In the valley of doubt do not wander like the strayed wayfarer. Go and learn from Satan(*6) how to worship. Accept one qebla and do not bow before every stranger. - 17/ Say, who is in the world that has not committed a sin? He who has sinned not : say, how could he live? I do evil thou requitest with evil, Then say, what is the difference between me and thee? - 18/ Sometimes thou are a cypress, sometimes a hyacinth and sometimes a jasmine, Now a mountain, a wilderness, and at another time a flower-garden. Now thou are the light of a candle, now the scent of a rose, Sometimes thou art in a garden, and sometimes in an assembly. - 19/ Sarmad ! thou hast done strange injury to the religion, Thou hast bartered thy faith for one with an intoxicating eye. With supplication and belief —thy entire wealth— Thou didst go and squander on an idol-worshipper.(*7) - 20/ He who believed in the secret of esoteric doctrine, Became more expanded than the expanded heavens. The Mulla [doctor] says that Ahmad [Mohammad] went up to heaven, Sarmad says that heaven came down into Ahmad [Mohammed ](*8) (*1) Kaaba is the inner part of the temple at Mecca. "Hajrul Aswad", or the black stone, has come down from the time of heathenism in Arabia, and is venerated by the pilgrims who flock to Mecca every year from all parts of the Mohammedan world. (*2) A "qalandar" is a darwish of a different sect. (*3) "Khuda" is here used in a double sense. "Khuda" is the Persian word God and "Khud-a" means a self-comer. (*4) Sarmad's clothes' philosophy or "Sartor resartus" is beautifully expressed in this quatrain. (*5) Sarmad who himself was a great poet, pays a well-deserved compliment to two of the greatest poets of Persia—Hafiz the master of "ghazal", justly called the Anacreon of the East and Omar Khayyam, the tent-maker philosopher of Nishapur whose quatrains are greatly admired in the East and in the West. (*6) According to Mohammedan tradition, the Devil fell for refusing to pay homage to Adam at the command of God. (*7) In this beautiful quatrain, Sarmad apparently refers to his prosperous and happy days at Thatta, his love for the Hindoo lad Abhai Chand, his neglect of his flourishing business as a merchant and his renunciation of the exoteric religion of Islam, being a faithful follower of the esoteric doctrine of the Safis. (*8) This fatal distitch brought on his head the wrath of the Emperor Aurungzebe—the bigot, the fanatic and the assassin— and he was beheaded by the order of the Emperor for blasphemy, in 1661 A.D. the capital city of Delhi where his grave can be seem to this day. “Armenians in India”, Mesrovb Jacob SETH, Calcutta 1937, (pp 188-192) style_images/master/snapback.png Vay Astdavdz! If that is the kind of words Sarmad, the Armenian from Isfahan, was saying, then no wonder Sultan Aurangzebe had him beheaded! I just thought it was down to this.... " It is said that Mohammed went to heaven, But I Sarmad say that Heaven came to Mohammed" And of course he was walking arounf stark naked in the fashion of a Guru ! Most unacceptable in the cities of Moghul Islamic India. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ata Donme Posted August 30, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2005 This was stated in an article that I read. I believe that it was in Groong. It appears that the article was wrong about this. Obviously someone mistook Persian for Armenian. As for Peck, this all stated when my French Armenian cousin visited me in Hermosa Beach shortly after having dinner with her husband's cousins in Bel Air who were next door neighbors with Veronique and Gregory Peck. They told me that the cousins told them Peck was part Armenian and was taking Armenian lessons. style_images/master/snapback.png Very interesting I am sure, but very outside this topic! lol! It is easy to poo poo our history and gobble up all the crap that is pumped into your heads via the idiot box as Gospel But Armenians have any fame in history, nahhhhh! You do the gossip, I do the history, deal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artaxias Posted August 30, 2005 Report Share Posted August 30, 2005 I doubt she was Armenian, even if there was a any Armenian blood how can anyone give a rats ass about such a sorry excuse for a human being? A mudslim cannot be Armenian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takoush Posted August 30, 2005 Report Share Posted August 30, 2005 How about Rouben Mamoulian the genious ex Hollywood Director. Talking about turning into Islam. This guy Mamoulian didn't even want to change his name; and because of it, no matter how genious he was, I believe they told him to leave the industry if he refuses to change his name and he left. Takouhi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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