“oldest Christian Nation” Wrestles Against

[MosJan]

“oldest Christian nation” wrestles against tolerance in matters of religion

 

By Mariam Badalyan & Gayane Mkrtchyan

ArmeniaNow reporters

 

Every morning 69-year-old Albert Khashkhashyan opens a small ramshackle booth to spend his day. He is not rushing to return home, as no one is happy for his return. It is eight years that he is rejected by his family.

 

“I have a large family, but there is no one waiting for me at home. The Jehovah’s Witnesses have destroyed my family,” says Khashkhashyan.

 

The Khashkhashyans live in a four-room apartment in a suburb of Yerevan. A construction engineer by training, Khashkhashyan headed the construction of five flour-mills in Iran in the 1980s. Those were happy days for a father of four children.

 

His life turned shambles in 1992 when his elder daughter, Elen, became a Jehovah’s Witness. Gradually, she was joined by her two sisters, brother and mother.

 

“My heart aches because of my children’s delusions,” says Khashkhashyan. “My daughters have forgotten about everything – education, career, leisure, marriage. They spend days attending religious gatherings and preaching. And my son refuses to serve in the army... I find my children lost for the society.”

 

Albert Khashkhashyan considers himself a victim of Jehovah’s Witnesses religious organization, or ‘sect’, as he calls it.

 

When Armenia gained independence in the 1990s, citizens also gained the right to explore “alternative” religions. Some, like Jehovah’s Witness (and including Mormons) are a striking departure from the traditional Christianity for which Armenia is famous. Contrary beliefs, habits, practices, dogma, are met not only with suspicion but with fear and intolerance by those who see the “sects” as a threat to the national religion – and the national character.

 

Currently, there are 56 religious organizations registered in Armenia. They represent 12 religious trends, out of which 8 are Christian confessions: Apostolic, Catholic, Russian Orthodox, Evangelical, Baptists, Adventists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Pentecostals. Moonies and Mormons in Armenia are not registered as a religious organization.

 

Freedom of religion has become a hot topic in Armenia within the past year. In the fall of 2004 the registration of Jehovah’s Witnesses, a religious organization with 22,000 members in Armenia, which had been denied registration for more than ten years, was received differently.

 

Despite some discriminatory provisions in the new law on alternative service (link to Vahan’s story?) international organizations and some NGOs considered the registration of Jehovah’s Witnesses, a big step forward on the way towards establishment of a democratic society.

 

The same fact, however, aroused the frustration of many citizens and even some local NGOs. Numerous TV, radio programs, newspaper articles periodically highlight the problems of religious rights.

 

The Center for the Rehabilitation and Help to Victims of Decadent Sects NGO, the Association for the Protection of Individual and Family, as well as a public committee consisting of 44 youth organizations led by the Republican Party’s youth division find addressing the problem critical for society.

 

Currently, courts are considering seven complaints that relate to property disputes. People come alleging that a sectarian family member had sold a common property and gave the money to the organization he or she attends without considering the will of other family members. Albert Khashkhashyan has a similar claim against his wife, who sold an apartment belonging to the family, which Khashkashyan inherited from his grandmother. The wife, he says, gave most of the money to the Jehovah’s Witnesses organization.

 

“At stake is the Armenian statehood, physical and mental health of the society, unity of families,” declares the head of the Republican Party’s youth division and National Assembly member Armen Ashotyan.

 

“If a military dodger throws himself out of the balcony on the 8th floor and his parents, at the dismal scene of their boy’s smashed body, say it was Jehovah’s will, whose rights is the sect violating? Should the state ignore such kind of cases?” says lawyer Ruzanna Ter-Vardanyan, who currently is involved in a civil case dealing with a deprivation of maternity rights of a Jehovah’s Witness.

 

MP Ashotyan considers the religious provisions of the ‘sects’ that put mental and physical health of people at risk to be particularly dangerous. A doctor by training and occupation Ashotyan says he has witnessed numerous cases in hospitals when a patient is near death, but his family did not allow life-saving blood transfusion for religious reasons. (According to Jehovah’s Witnesses interpretation of the Bible, blood transfusion is a sin as it equals to the biblical ban “to eat meat with its blood”. Since 1961 when this interpretation was declared by Jehovah’s Witnesses, many members of their organization worldwide, including children, died. Recently, under external pressure they had to modify this doctrine and now allow blood transfusion, but it is allowed only among their members. )

 

According to Ashotyan many family arguments occur on the ground of religious “intolerance”, which weaken the society.

 

Head of Jehovah’s Witnesses religious organization Hrach Keshishyan denies all accusations: “How can a philosophy that preaches tolerance sow discord? I think the reasons are different, but people link them to the religion.

 

“Our name is often speculated upon,” he says. “But a Jehovah’s Witness neither steals, nor embezzles. Can there be a better patriotism than this?.”

 

“Often a woman’s husband is against her visits and there emerges the problem of the family’s destruction,” says pastor Karen Khachatryan. “In similar cases, we advise our members to preserve family peace and leave the church community. Since 2000 Karen is the founding Pastor of “Rema” Pentecostal Church.

 

Instead, Pastor Karen asserts, that their organization, like any other non-apostolic religious organization in Armenia, is discriminated against.

 

“If you periodically attend a gathering to read the Bible with a non-Apostolic group, you are a ‘sectarian’; people will point at you,” Pastor Karen says. “But if you attend the Apostolic church you are a Christian.”

 

Apostolic church priest Ghevond Mayilyan, the head of the Christian education center of the Holy See of St. Echmiadzin claims that religious organizations like Jehovah’s Witnesses or Rema, use suspicious methods to attract and keep members.

 

Pastor Khachatryan says his church preaches family values

Pastor Khachatryan says his church preaches family values

“They use the ‘bombardment of love’ to attract a person,” Fr. Ghevond says. “Treating a man with love and giving him/her social aid they tie him/her to themselves. Central bodies of many financially powerful totalitarian sects make large investments in Armenia for attracting even more members. What is it done for?.”

 

Hrach Keshishyan claims Jehovah’s Witnesses do not use methods other than the ones by the Apostolic church, which serve the same goal – to sow the best qualities in a person. Members of their organization are honest and law-abiding.

 

“The cultivation of externally safe and even praiseworthy qualities in a person contains grave risks,” MP Ashotyan is convinced. “Even the sectarian pastors themselves do not know why it is done. In reality it has one aim – to make the people governable. There is danger for the statehood, health of the society and unity of families.”

 

Armen Ashotyan thinks a well-coordinated approach is needed to make room for misunderstood beliefs.

 

“The state, church and society must struggle together,” he says.

 

Referent of the Department for Religion and National Minorities Affairs of the RA Government staff Vardan Astsatryan says the state should not become over involved in controlling the religious organizations. The society itself must be able to give its own assessments and fight with acceptable methods.

 

Astsatryan says that currently, the only control that the state has over religious organizations is through their registration, which would enable it to operate freely, for example rent premises, invite guests from abroad, publish newspapers, etc.

 

“Only by registering a religious organization we will bring it to the legislative field,” says Astsatryan. “And if it avoids registration, then it has something to hide.”

 

Despite the advantages offered by registration, there are organizations in Armenia, which prefer to stay out of the legislative field. According to the head of the Center for the Rehabilitation and Help to Victims of Decadent Sects Amaryan some 10 organizations including Satanists, Scientologists, Transcendentalists exist in Armenia, but are not registered.

 

“Try to find a person openly declaring he or she is a Satanist, whereas the place they gather in Yerevan is commonly known. Rituals of Satanists contain dangerous elements, there is no doubt they are anti-humane. Naturally, they will not get registered in Armenia,” says Amaryan. “Other trends such as scientologists or transcendentalists do not consider themselves to be a religion. However, their activities are related to the spiritual field and should be controlled as well.”

 

The state does not even count the number of members of religious organizations absolutely relying on the data submitted by religious organizations, which according to Astsatryan may be faked for different reasons.

 

“The number may be presented as large if the organization wants to get funds from abroad,” says Astsatryan. “And, on the contrary, it can be presented as small, if they feel pressured in the country.”

 

Nevertheless, Astsatryan thinks this approach is rather proportionate with the rights of the religious organizations.

 

Astsatryan admits, however, there are shortcomings in the legislation.

 

“Since in 1991 (when the Law on the Freedom of Conscience and Religious Organizations was adopted) the religious diversity was a new phenomenon for our society, it didn’t have time to give assessment to it,” Astsatryan explains.

 

One of the shortcomings of the current law according to Astsatryan is that although it foresees bans for violations, it does not give its legal consequences, that is, does not stipulate punishment for them (whether administrative or of other nature). In these cases a corresponding body – the prosecutor’s office, contents itself with only a warning.

 

Currently, a group of experts work on a new law, which involves members of NGOs and among them is the Helsinki Committee in Armenia.

 

The chairman of Helsinki Committee Avetik Ishkhanyan, finds that in the new law first of all the monopoly of the Armenian Apostolic church and discrimination towards other religious organizations must be abolished.

 

“There is no definition to the word proselytism,” Ishkhanyan says, “which is banned by the current law. The absence of definition leads to ambiguities, which for sure work not on the side of religious organizations other than the Apostolic church.”

 

Notwithstanding with what Ashotyan and Amaryan claim, Helsinki Committee, an international non-governmental organization in Armenia, claims that according to the complaints they receive, it is the religious organizations that mostly complain of rights violations.

 

The Helsinki Committee receives several serious complaints each year from religious organizations during a year. Among them are discriminations at workplace, humiliation during alternative service, beatings during preaching, and torture during forced military service.

 

However, although not excluding that serious violations by religious organizations might have taken place, the chairman says the Committee has received only one complaint against a religious organization so far.

 

“A man came saying that his wife – a Jehovah’s witness – has taken their children abroad,” Ishkhanyan recalls. “He blamed the religious organization for the breakup of the family. We were ready to help him, but he never came back again.”

 

Ishkhanyan says the field needs serious expertise and research.

 

“So far we have rumors and a couple of journalistic articles, but no serious research. Whereas, without an expert’s assessment there is a fear to appear with even more bans on the right to freedom of religion in the new law.”

[Ludwig9]

“oldest Christian nation” wrestles against tolerance in matters of religion

 

By Mariam Badalyan & Gayane Mkrtchyan

ArmeniaNow reporters

 

Every morning 69-year-old Albert Khashkhashyan opens a small ramshackle booth to spend his day. He is not rushing to return home, as no one is happy for his return. It is eight years that he is rejected by his family.

 

“I have a large family, but there is no one waiting for me at home. The Jehovah’s Witnesses have destroyed my family,” says Khashkhashyan.

 

The Khashkhashyans live in a four-room apartment in a suburb of Yerevan. A construction engineer by training, Khashkhashyan headed the construction of five flour-mills in Iran in the 1980s. Those were happy days for a father of four children.

 

His life turned shambles in 1992 when his elder daughter, Elen, became a Jehovah’s Witness. Gradually, she was joined by her two sisters, brother and mother.

 

“My heart aches because of my children’s delusions,” says Khashkhashyan. “My daughters have forgotten about everything – education, career, leisure, marriage. They spend days attending religious gatherings and preaching. And my son refuses to serve in the army... I find my children lost for the society.”

 

Albert Khashkhashyan considers himself a victim of Jehovah’s Witnesses religious organization, or ‘sect’, as he calls it.

 

When Armenia gained independence in the 1990s, citizens also gained the right to explore “alternative” religions. Some, like Jehovah’s Witness (and including Mormons) are a striking departure from the traditional Christianity for which Armenia is famous. Contrary beliefs, habits, practices, dogma, are met not only with suspicion but with fear and intolerance by those who see the “sects” as a threat to the national religion – and the national character.

 

Currently, there are 56 religious organizations registered in Armenia. They represent 12 religious trends, out of which 8 are Christian confessions: Apostolic, Catholic, Russian Orthodox, Evangelical, Baptists, Adventists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Pentecostals. Moonies and Mormons in Armenia are not registered as a religious organization.

 

Freedom of religion has become a hot topic in Armenia within the past year. In the fall of 2004 the registration of Jehovah’s Witnesses, a religious organization with 22,000 members in Armenia, which had been denied registration for more than ten years, was received differently.

 

Despite some discriminatory provisions in the new law on alternative service (link to Vahan’s story?) international organizations and some NGOs considered the registration of Jehovah’s Witnesses, a big step forward on the way towards establishment of a democratic society.

 

The same fact, however, aroused the frustration of many citizens and even some local NGOs. Numerous TV, radio programs, newspaper articles periodically highlight the problems of religious rights.

 

The Center for the Rehabilitation and Help to Victims of Decadent Sects NGO, the Association for the Protection of Individual and Family, as well as a public committee consisting of 44 youth organizations led by the Republican Party’s youth division find addressing the problem critical for society.

 

Currently, courts are considering seven complaints that relate to property disputes. People come alleging that a sectarian family member had sold a common property and gave the money to the organization he or she attends without considering the will of other family members. Albert Khashkhashyan has a similar claim against his wife, who sold an apartment belonging to the family, which Khashkashyan inherited from his grandmother. The wife, he says, gave most of the money to the Jehovah’s Witnesses organization.

 

“At stake is the Armenian statehood, physical and mental health of the society, unity of families,” declares the head of the Republican Party’s youth division and National Assembly member Armen Ashotyan.

 

“If a military dodger throws himself out of the balcony on the 8th floor and his parents, at the dismal scene of their boy’s smashed body, say it was Jehovah’s will, whose rights is the sect violating? Should the state ignore such kind of cases?” says lawyer Ruzanna Ter-Vardanyan, who currently is involved in a civil case dealing with a deprivation of maternity rights of a Jehovah’s Witness.

 

MP Ashotyan considers the religious provisions of the ‘sects’ that put mental and physical health of people at risk to be particularly dangerous. A doctor by training and occupation Ashotyan says he has witnessed numerous cases in hospitals when a patient is near death, but his family did not allow life-saving blood transfusion for religious reasons. (According to Jehovah’s Witnesses interpretation of the Bible, blood transfusion is a sin as it equals to the biblical ban “to eat meat with its blood”. Since 1961 when this interpretation was declared by Jehovah’s Witnesses, many members of their organization worldwide, including children, died. Recently, under external pressure they had to modify this doctrine and now allow blood transfusion, but it is allowed only among their members. )

 

According to Ashotyan many family arguments occur on the ground of religious “intolerance”, which weaken the society.

 

Head of Jehovah’s Witnesses religious organization Hrach Keshishyan denies all accusations: “How can a philosophy that preaches tolerance sow discord? I think the reasons are different, but people link them to the religion.

 

“Our name is often speculated upon,” he says. “But a Jehovah’s Witness neither steals, nor embezzles. Can there be a better patriotism than this?.”

 

“Often a woman’s husband is against her visits and there emerges the problem of the family’s destruction,” says pastor Karen Khachatryan. “In similar cases, we advise our members to preserve family peace and leave the church community. Since 2000 Karen is the founding Pastor of “Rema” Pentecostal Church.

 

Instead, Pastor Karen asserts, that their organization, like any other non-apostolic religious organization in Armenia, is discriminated against.

 

“If you periodically attend a gathering to read the Bible with a non-Apostolic group, you are a ‘sectarian’; people will point at you,” Pastor Karen says. “But if you attend the Apostolic church you are a Christian.”

 

Apostolic church priest Ghevond Mayilyan, the head of the Christian education center of the Holy See of St. Echmiadzin claims that religious organizations like Jehovah’s Witnesses or Rema, use suspicious methods to attract and keep members.

 

Pastor Khachatryan says his church preaches family values

Pastor Khachatryan says his church preaches family values

“They use the ‘bombardment of love’ to attract a person,” Fr. Ghevond says. “Treating a man with love and giving him/her social aid they tie him/her to themselves. Central bodies of many financially powerful totalitarian sects make large investments in Armenia for attracting even more members. What is it done for?.”

 

Hrach Keshishyan claims Jehovah’s Witnesses do not use methods other than the ones by the Apostolic church, which serve the same goal – to sow the best qualities in a person. Members of their organization are honest and law-abiding.

 

“The cultivation of externally safe and even praiseworthy qualities in a person contains grave risks,” MP Ashotyan is convinced. “Even the sectarian pastors themselves do not know why it is done. In reality it has one aim – to make the people governable. There is danger for the statehood, health of the society and unity of families.”

 

Armen Ashotyan thinks a well-coordinated approach is needed to make room for misunderstood beliefs.

 

“The state, church and society must struggle together,” he says.

 

Referent of the Department for Religion and National Minorities Affairs of the RA Government staff Vardan Astsatryan says the state should not become over involved in controlling the religious organizations. The society itself must be able to give its own assessments and fight with acceptable methods.

 

Astsatryan says that currently, the only control that the state has over religious organizations is through their registration, which would enable it to operate freely, for example rent premises, invite guests from abroad, publish newspapers, etc.

 

“Only by registering a religious organization we will bring it to the legislative field,” says Astsatryan. “And if it avoids registration, then it has something to hide.”

 

Despite the advantages offered by registration, there are organizations in Armenia, which prefer to stay out of the legislative field. According to the head of the Center for the Rehabilitation and Help to Victims of Decadent Sects Amaryan some 10 organizations including Satanists, Scientologists, Transcendentalists exist in Armenia, but are not registered.

 

“Try to find a person openly declaring he or she is a Satanist, whereas the place they gather in Yerevan is commonly known. Rituals of Satanists contain dangerous elements, there is no doubt they are anti-humane. Naturally, they will not get registered in Armenia,” says Amaryan. “Other trends such as scientologists or transcendentalists do not consider themselves to be a religion. However, their activities are related to the spiritual field and should be controlled as well.”

 

The state does not even count the number of members of religious organizations absolutely relying on the data submitted by religious organizations, which according to Astsatryan may be faked for different reasons.

 

“The number may be presented as large if the organization wants to get funds from abroad,” says Astsatryan. “And, on the contrary, it can be presented as small, if they feel pressured in the country.”

 

Nevertheless, Astsatryan thinks this approach is rather proportionate with the rights of the religious organizations.

 

Astsatryan admits, however, there are shortcomings in the legislation.

 

“Since in 1991 (when the Law on the Freedom of Conscience and Religious Organizations was adopted) the religious diversity was a new phenomenon for our society, it didn’t have time to give assessment to it,” Astsatryan explains.

 

One of the shortcomings of the current law according to Astsatryan is that although it foresees bans for violations, it does not give its legal consequences, that is, does not stipulate punishment for them (whether administrative or of other nature). In these cases a corresponding body – the prosecutor’s office, contents itself with only a warning.

 

Currently, a group of experts work on a new law, which involves members of NGOs and among them is the Helsinki Committee in Armenia.

 

The chairman of Helsinki Committee Avetik Ishkhanyan, finds that in the new law first of all the monopoly of the Armenian Apostolic church and discrimination towards other religious organizations must be abolished.

 

“There is no definition to the word proselytism,” Ishkhanyan says, “which is banned by the current law. The absence of definition leads to ambiguities, which for sure work not on the side of religious organizations other than the Apostolic church.”

 

Notwithstanding with what Ashotyan and Amaryan claim, Helsinki Committee, an international non-governmental organization in Armenia, claims that according to the complaints they receive, it is the religious organizations that mostly complain of rights violations.

 

The Helsinki Committee receives several serious complaints each year from religious organizations during a year. Among them are discriminations at workplace, humiliation during alternative service, beatings during preaching, and torture during forced military service.

 

However, although not excluding that serious violations by religious organizations might have taken place, the chairman says the Committee has received only one complaint against a religious organization so far.

 

“A man came saying that his wife – a Jehovah’s witness – has taken their children abroad,” Ishkhanyan recalls. “He blamed the religious organization for the breakup of the family. We were ready to help him, but he never came back again.”

 

Ishkhanyan says the field needs serious expertise and research.

 

“So far we have rumors and a couple of journalistic articles, but no serious research. Whereas, without an expert’s assessment there is a fear to appear with even more bans on the right to freedom of religion in the new law.”

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

 

So if the Armenians in Armenia democratically vote not to have any other religions allowed in the country is it considered not democratic?

 

Now, if these religions are not recognized will they cease to exist?

 

It is quite disheartening to read how the JW’s destroyed the families listed in the articles.

[kakachik77]

if this was some oil rich muslim country banning various christian groups or sects converting its people then the entire world would silently "respect" their wishes since islam does not allow conversions.

 

in any case, I have lost my respect for armenow.now periodical after reading John Hughes self-humiliating piece about Armenian women having extra layers of ass b/c of too many loafs of lavash bread. John Hughes should worry about the obesity epidemic in America. And I stop here.

[Sasun]

Not to sound like I am justifying negative tendencies of JW's or others, there is a lot of bigotry towards alternative religious/spiritual directions in Armenia like many other places. Sometimes you can hear baseless and ridiculous accusations much like what we find in this thread http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=12157&hl= . Edited August 3, 2005 by Sasun

[Sasun]

“The cultivation of externally safe and even praiseworthy qualities in a person contains grave risks,” MP Ashotyan is convinced.

How is that? The ideal of all religions is to cultivate "praiseworthy" qulities in their followers. If that was not the case then what is religion for? It seems like Mr. Ashotyan is against religions in general. He should not be in charge of anything that has to do with religious organizations.

 

“Even the sectarian pastors themselves do not know why it is done. In reality it has one aim – to make the people governable. There is danger for the statehood, health of the society and unity of families.”

In other words, they see some kind of an international conspiracy. One would want to see evidence of such danger before they make ridiculous implications.

[Djrak]

Currently, there are 56 religious organizations registered in Armenia. They represent 12 religious trends, out of which 8 are Christian confessions: Apostolic, Catholic, Russian Orthodox, Evangelical, Baptists, Adventists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Pentecostals. Moonies and Mormons in Armenia are not registered as a religious organization.

style_images/master/snapback.png

and they foget the church founded by the Apostles of Christ, and they forget the faith of 1,5 million martyrs not to mention all the others throughout our history, and they rebel against our Church deceived by opportunist western cults. Lord have mercy.

[Sasun]

and they foget the church founded by the Apostles of Christ, and they forget the faith of 1,5 million martyrs not to mention all the others throughout our history, and they rebel against our Church deceived by opportunist western cults. Lord have mercy.

style_images/master/snapback.png

Don't you think people have the right to choose their own church/religion/temple? Lord have mercy indeed to the fanatical, intolerant and dogmatic.

[Djrak]

Don't you think people have the right to choose their own church/religion/temple?

people are free to choose whatever they want

Lord have mercy indeed to the fanatical, intolerant and dogmatic.

style_images/master/snapback.png

fanatical: if you mean extreme, then yes God is extreme, and love is extreme

intolerant: i agree they need our prayers

dogmatic: which dogma? on what basis?

 

it's all a matter of perspective, you fearing love because it is extreme doesnt make love evil.

[Sip]

If it's not Jewhova's Witnesses, it's those damn Scientologists ... when will humanity ever evolve to a point beyond having the need for any religion?

[Sip]

it's all a matter of perspective, you fearing love because it is extreme doesnt make love evil.

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

Anything extreme is evil (Even "good").

[Sasun]

people are free to choose whatever they want

This contradicts to what you said above. If you truly believe people are free to choose then you shoul not have any problem Armenians having any religion and I would expect no complaint about other religious/spiritual paths. However, you called them deceptive cults.

fanatical: if you mean extreme, then yes God is extreme, and love is extreme

How do you know that God is extreme? And what do you mean love is extreme?

intolerant: i agree they need our prayers

So you agree that you are intolerant??? Well, what can I say? Only that I would suggest you to have some of the tolerance that Jesus Christ demonstrated through his life and crucificion. And if you think someone needs your prayers then by all means pray for them. Nobody can tell you must pray, or you must not pray.

dogmatic: which dogma? on what basis?

Many dogmas, such as claim that everyone must be a Christian or go to eternal hell, etc...

it's all a matter of perspective, you fearing love because it is extreme doesnt make love evil.

style_images/master/snapback.png

I am not fearing love - in fact I don't see any love coming from dogmatic people and institutions But I would be fearing that someone would take extreme steps based on some dogma and mental beliefs. Jehova's witnesses have a lot of dogmas of their own, but at least they are not displaying extreme behavior towards others.

[Sasun]

when will humanity ever evolve to a point beyond having the need for any religion?

style_images/master/snapback.png

When everyone knows God and is perfect.

[Sasun]

Anything extreme is evil  (Even "good").

style_images/master/snapback.png

Are you sure about that?

[Ludwig9]

Don't you think people have the right to choose their own church/religion/temple? Lord have mercy indeed to the fanatical, intolerant and dogmatic.

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

People will choose their own religion whether they have a right to or not. Just like all the Armenian Christians, over the last 2000 years could have changed their religion to what ever the ruling majority was and they didn’t. Now, my point is a bit general, but I do find it quite disappointing that most of the Armenians that I have met have completely abandoned their religion, a religion which countless Armenians have died for so their future generations could be preserved. I wish to say it is completely the fault of the Church that Armenians have abandoned Christianity, but, I also understand that the Church is a community of people, young and old and it is the people that compose a Church not just a building or monks or priests.

 

And about being fanatical, intolerant and dogmatic, people in an open society have every right to be fanatical and intolerant because that is the measure of democracy.

[vava]

And about being fanatical, intolerant and dogmatic, people in an open society have every right to be fanatical and intolerant because that is the measure of democracy.

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

Um. No. I'll have to disagree on this one. There is a line when being fanatically intolerant and/or dogmatic begins to encroach upon the rights of the other individuals within a society. Freedom of opinion may be based on democratic values, but when those 'free' opinions become discriminitory and impede the freedom and development of some segments of society on the basis of religion, race, colour, age or what have you, then a line has been crossed.

 

In fact, fanatic and intolerant attitudes are often at the root of cataclismic divides within societies that lead to opression, war, genocide so forth. People having the 'right' to be intolerant fanatics (for democracy's sake, no less) paints a bleak picture of the future...

Edited August 16, 2005 by vava

[armjan]

Anything extreme is evil  (Even "good").

style_images/master/snapback.png

this is the smartest thing i've heard this month.

keep talking/writing...

Edited August 16, 2005 by armjan

[armjan]

Don't you think people have the right to choose their own church/religion/temple? Lord have mercy indeed to the fanatical, intolerant and dogmatic.

style_images/master/snapback.png

they sure do.

as far as tolerance,

most religions, as far as I am aware require an abandment of the rest (exclusive/intolerant).

even those passive buddists.

[Djrak]

This contradicts to what you said above. If you truly believe people are free to choose then you shoul not have any problem Armenians having any religion and I would expect no complaint about other religious/spiritual paths. However, you called them deceptive cults.

no it doesnt contradict what i said, people are free, everyone has free will, yo are free to do whatever you want, that doesnt mean whatever you do is beneficial or good.

 

How do you know that God is extreme? And what do you mean love is extreme?

because He is the Light and in Him there is no darkness. Love is extreme because in it there is no selfishness.

 

So you agree that you are intolerant??? Well, what can I say? Only that I would suggest you to have some of the tolerance that Jesus Christ demonstrated through his life and crucificion. And if you think someone needs your prayers then by all means pray for them. Nobody can tell you must pray, or you must not pray.

i didnt say i'm intolerant, you are accusing me of that. As you said Jesus demonstrated full acceptance and we should follow Him. But you can't expect me to stand and watch others get deceived by lies. I am free to speak arent I?

 

Many dogmas, such as claim that everyone must be a Christian or go to eternal hell, etc...

well, that depends on what you understand by "Christian" and what is your understanding of "hell" and "faith" and "life" and "sin" and "salvation" and "eternal life" and many other things

 

I am not fearing love

do you know love?

in fact I don't see any love coming from dogmatic people and institutions

ok, that may be very true in your case, i cant comment on that.

But I would be fearing that someone would take extreme steps based on some dogma and mental beliefs. Jehova's witnesses have a lot of dogmas of their own, but at least they are not displaying extreme behavior towards others.

style_images/master/snapback.png

anyone basing their life on dogmas is following death as the Apostle Paul said the letter kills but faith gives life.

[Djrak]

a religion which countless Armenians have died for so their future generations could be preserved.

do you think that is the only reason for which they died for ?

 

I wish to say it is completely the fault of the Church that Armenians have abandoned Christianity, but, I also understand that the Church is a community of people, young and old and it is the people that compose a Church not just a building or monks or priests.  

style_images/master/snapback.png

i agree completely, so what are you going to do about it?

Edited August 16, 2005 by Djrak

[Sasun]

as far as tolerance,

most religions, as far as I am aware require an abandment of the rest (exclusive/intolerant).

even those passive buddists.

style_images/master/snapback.png

I think there is a big difference, abandonment does not mean intolerance. To make a simple example, suppose I like blue shirts and don't like red shirts. I wear blue shirts and don't wear red shirts (in other words I abandon red shirts). However, I am quite tolerant of people who wear red shirts.

Tolerance of other religions does not mean you have to practice them, it only means you have to be tolerant to their presence, ideas, beliefs, practices, everything that a bona fide religion implies provided nobody gets hurt or otherwise negatively affected by such practices. And even if there are some negative tendencies in other religions, the tolerant way is to give a friendly and compassionate advice, much like Jesus Christ would dine with Pharisees and teach and advice them in a humble and friendly manner.

[Sasun]

no it doesnt contradict what i said, people are free, everyone has free will, yo are free to do whatever you want, that doesnt mean whatever you do is beneficial or good.

I know that people have free will, I am not asking you that. My question is, do people have the right to practice whatever religion they like? Is that (morally) right to have a religion other than Christianity? You said something about treason to 1.5 million people and things like that. Excuse me, but that's quite unreasonable to accuse people of treason which has no connection at all. This is another thing that falls in the category of dogma, you have a certain belief - fine, have whatever belief you wish, but be kind and don't accuse people of treason where there is none. 6 million Jewish people died because of being Jewish, so does that mean now we have to practice Judaism in order not to be traitors? I don't think so. Each man picks his religion.

because He is the Light and in Him there is no darkness. Love is extreme because in it there is no selfishness.

Let it be your way of defining, however, I fail to see how you connect unselfish love with intolerance.

i didnt say i'm intolerant, you are accusing me of that. As you said Jesus demonstrated full acceptance and we should follow Him.

I am not accusing you. You actually said "intolerant: i agree they need our prayers". So I am wondering what you were agreeing then.

But you can't expect me to stand and watch others get deceived by lies. I am free to speak arent I?

You are free to speak, but the problem is that you are seeing deception and lies in other religion's teachings. Correct me if I am wrong but it looks like if something does not correspond to your beliefs you call it deception. That does not sound right. A while back Christianity was new in Armenia, with the same attitude one could conclude that Apostles and Christian preachers were also deceiving.

So can you tell me what are the lies and deceptions you are talking about?

well, that depends on what you understand by "Christian" and what is your understanding of "hell" and "faith" and "life" and "sin" and "salvation" and "eternal life" and many other things

do you know love?

That's a matter of personal belief, freedom of religion allows one to have any belief, and one cannot conclude any deception or lie from whatever other religious folks would preach just from the content of the preaching.

anyone basing their life on dogmas is following death as the Apostle Paul said the letter kills but faith gives life.

style_images/master/snapback.png

Do you think you have no dogmas?

Edited August 16, 2005 by Sasun

[Ludwig9]

do you think that is the only reason for which they died for ?

i agree completely, so what are you going to do about it?

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

Only reason, no, main reason, yes. Again, I was making a general point.

 

In short, I attend the Armenian Orthodox Church, I help serve on the Alter, I share the Gospel, and I pray for people. I also am an amateur apologist, I have written articles in other forums where the Armenian Church has been attacked, in a theological, historical and doctrinal context. When I was younger, I was a Sunday school teacher, a camp counselor, and a youth group board member.

 

How about you?

[Zartonk]

Look, no Armenian is or can be forced into believing anything.

 

But when an alien religion (whatever it may be) comes along that creates such division and blind, idiotic dogmatism among families and the community and succeedes in seperating the people, it should be fought against for the sake of union.

 

The greatest porpuse of Armenia's NATIONAL Apostolic church throughout her existence has been the preservation (and sometimes even protection) of an Armenian identity. At some points in history, the Church subsituted Armenia when Armenia herself was under a yoke .

 

So I think this is beyond individual rights, religous liberty and democracy of a country. It is about what is really sacred for a people: they're culture and their very survival.

 

The Armenian church is a human institution: It isn't perfect.

Don't agree with her Doctrine, but do realize the Church's significane.

[Sasun]

But when an alien religion (whatever it may be) comes along that creates such division and blind, idiotic dogmatism among families and the community and succeedes in seperating the people, it should be fought against for the sake of union.

Such words are bound to create animosity and separation. These people need not ask anyone what religion to pick, it is their choice, not the choice of the country. So if you are for unity of the nation such attitude is actually countreproductive to unity.

The greatest porpuse of Armenia's NATIONAL Apostolic church throughout her existence has been the preservation (and sometimes even protection) of an Armenian identity. At some points in history, the Church subsituted Armenia when Armenia herself was under a yoke .

Now that there is an Armenian statehood it maybe time for the Armenian church to be a spiritual guide for Armenians rather than a governing/social institution - something unnecessary for the church in Armenia.

So I think this is beyond individual rights, religous liberty and democracy of a country. It is about what is really sacred for a people: they're culture and their very survival.

What are you suggesting here? To not allow religious minorities to have liberty?

The Armenian church is a human institution: It isn't perfect.

Don't agree with her Doctrine, but do realize the Church's significane.

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

The same could be said about Jehovah's Witnesses and other religious paths. They are not perfect as human institutions, and have significance for their followers. So let them be .

[Ludwig9]

Look, no Armenian is or can be forced into believing anything.

 

But when an alien religion (whatever it may be) comes along that creates such division and blind, idiotic dogmatism among families and the community and succeedes in seperating the people, it should be fought against for the sake of union.

 

The greatest porpuse of Armenia's NATIONAL Apostolic church throughout her existence has been the preservation (and sometimes even protection) of an Armenian identity. At some points in history, the Church subsituted Armenia when Armenia herself was under a yoke .

 

So I think this is beyond individual rights, religous liberty and democracy of a country. It is about what is really sacred for a people: they're culture and their very survival.

 

The Armenian church is a human institution: It isn't perfect.

Don't agree with her Doctrine, but do realize the Church's significane.

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

Who is forcing Armenians to believe in anything?

 

The greatest purpose of the Armenian Church is to fulfill what Christ commanded her to do; it seems that you have a misunderstanding of the mission of the Armenian Church. The Armenian Church, established and conserved, history, music, literature and created the alphabet. The Christianity in infused in almost every aspect of Armenian Culture. Unfortunately, there are individuals who try to create nonsensical and arbitrary reasons that an Armenian society can exist as being Armenian without the Church. What happens most of the time when Armenians assimilate into other religions is they basically cease to exist, look at the Hamshem’s and the Armenian community that was in Poland. Again, people regardless of being Armenian or not will choose whatever they want to believe. Additionally, the Armenian Church in Doctrinal and Theological grounds is perfect.