vava Posted August 19, 2005 Report Share Posted August 19, 2005 Ok now... let's avoid getting personal. I will advise everyone on this thread to avoid 'unchristian' behaviours and rather try to turn the other cheek (as Jesus would have done, for those he believe in Jesus) Religion, Christianity, Jesus, God - when we begin to mix these subjects with Armenians we inevitably get a fight It is obviously a very sensitive issue. What does this tell us about ourselves? What could this be saying about our 'religion'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted August 19, 2005 Report Share Posted August 19, 2005 ... and rather try to turn the other cheek (as Jesus would have done, for those he believe in Jesus) style_images/master/snapback.png "Turning the cheek" simply means "to see things from a different angle". You view it this way, then you turn your cheek and view it that way. But no matter how hard I try and select different angles to generate a correct point of view on the last couple of posts I cannot help myself but think that when Christ comes back he's gonna make some very serious additions in the Christian code of conduct. The passage you mentioned, Vava jan, is gonna sound like "turn the other cheek, avoid the blow and perform a powerful right uppercut*, Armen". Megha indz Ter Astvats. Megha, megha, megha .... ---------------------------------- * The right uppercut is a very powerful and effective inside punch. The target must be at short or medium range punch distance. The uppercut is directed either high, towards the head under the chin, or low to the body, often in the solar plexus area. The uppercut can be thrown effectively with either the right hand or the left hand, with the right uppercut being slightly more powerful. http://www.theonetwopunch.com/uppercut.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djrak Posted August 19, 2005 Report Share Posted August 19, 2005 No wonder we are in such dire straits with morons telling us what our religion is. style_images/master/snapback.png fine, ask our church then. Ask your priest what our religion is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted August 19, 2005 Report Share Posted August 19, 2005 (edited) What you just wrote here is a heresy. It is not the gospel. Do you believe that Jesus was the Christ? That He is God? You speak as if Jesus was a prophet or a man who earned God's approval. This is NOT what Christianity is about. It is not mere consiousness or a state of the mind. If you dont KNOW that God became man, and that he carried our burden and lived a life without sin and died on the cross and was resurrected to grant us everlasting life then you are not a Christian yet. If you think you can exercise yourself thru meditation and reading and other means to acheive a "peace" or "state" you call "christ-consiousness" you are deceived those are all lies and in time will fail. We are called to be Holy just as our Father who calls us is Holy if you don't know the father then how can you go to him and who knows the father, only he who came from Him and is in Him as the Father is in Him-> The Son and once you accept this then you abide in Him and the Holy Spirit gives you life, peace and understanding. One God head 3 persons. That's the Holy Trinity. style_images/master/snapback.png You are saying what the church tells you, not really what Jesus Christ has said. Heresy? Hmm... yeah, according to some church fathers I am a heretic But I do not care, from my point of view they have removed themselves from the original teachings of Christ. P.S. I am not in complete disagreement with all of what you said, but I completely disagree on your point about meditation. Edited August 19, 2005 by Sasun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted August 19, 2005 Report Share Posted August 19, 2005 you still don't get it, theology and ideas come after faith faith is not based on theology but it starts the other way around. You are accusing me of judging when i'm talking the truth. For your information i have many muslim friends, and i love them all equally and i dont judge them i share my faith with them and i pray for them and they never once accused me of judging. style_images/master/snapback.png Actually I get your point, you are saying theology is based on faith. Guess what, I have faith but my theology is quite different from yours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted August 19, 2005 Report Share Posted August 19, 2005 Hi Sasun, who decides what a bona fide religion is? Unfortanetely, you will only be with us for the next 100 yrs or so, what then. Who do we elect to define "bona fide" religion. Barev Armjan, I see your point. There is no hard and fast rule to define what is bona fide religion. I don't have a definition, it is something you know it when you see it. While I can't give a fail-proof definition of what true religion is, I can tell you that Jehovah's Witnesses, all the other Christian churches operating in Armenia are valid religious paths. It is a mistake to call them deceivers or what not. my take on it is...a religion is a religion as it's believers/followers define it as. Like it or not, it is what they say it is. As soon as you start thinking about if it should qualify as a religion or not, then a fair amount of personal biases will be used in the decision making process. Remember, this is the same thing your asking Djrak not to do. Importance is subjective. It all depends who you ask. What is important to him may or maynot be important to you! as with most events in history, order(age) does matter. current state = past state + transition or future state = current state + transition what has ensued is a shameless power struggle that humans have perfected over ages. Well, if you are going by age then Judaism is at least twice as old as Christianity. Would you say that it is more truthful? Remember that different authors have different intentions. None of us may conclusively conclude what the intentions of these writers were. We can only infer thru consistency(gospels). Incoherent material as we know today is considered highly circumstantial and may have been fabricated to empower rivaling philosophies. Remember, a sh!t load of jews started disagreeing, what came next is documented pretty well and thrown at every christians face as a consequence of Christ himself. Who opened this can of worms anyway... style_images/master/snapback.png That is true that different authors have different intentions. Also, different authors see things differently. They may all have true intentions to write down gospels but because they see and understand things differently what they write will be different. So the four canonical gospels have a lot in common but also considerable amount of details are different. We will have to live with that and try to understand each one of them. So, St. Thomas, the Apostle of Christ also wrote a gospel, things that he saw and heard from Christ. But guess what, certain people called fathers of church determined that Thomas's gospel is not true and banned it. Doesn't it seem awfully wrong? They banned many other books too. And the idea of heresy - it is a false concept, there is no heresy, there are only different understandings and different degrees of truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted August 19, 2005 Report Share Posted August 19, 2005 many of the church fathers were saints so were all the Apostles, there was no conflict or major dispute whithin the One Holy Universal Apostolic Church until the council of Chalcedon. what is excluded from the canon is not considered wrong but it is not scripture. You shouldnt be worried about such things, have you read the gospel of Thomas? What is it exactly that you find essntial in it? What is essential? It is a gospel, a first hand account, isn't it essential? Also, it has things that none of the other gospels have and tells us more what Jesus Christ said. there is a lot of truth in what you are saying but it isnt the complete truth of the matter. Jesus' commandment was to love your God with all your heart, soul and strength and to love yur brother as yourself. Those commandments do not exclude the law, the prophets and doctrines of the Church, in fact they are a summary of them. So if you take a few doctrines and try to follow thm without having Christ as the base you are heading for destruction (parable of the man who build his house on sand and the one who build it on the rock with deep foundations and the storm didnt affect it). 2 can follow the same doctrines but one can be a true son and the other a free lancer, one can worship God with the spirit and another with his lips. From my point of view when church is build on dry dogmas and doctrines it is like building on a sand. Doctrine/dogma implies intellectualizing spirituality, something impossible to do. It also limits the truth to certain words and ideas. You can't confine the truth to words, it is not only impossible but also stops one from advancing in truth. As it is we have many limitations, now add to that doctrines and you will be stuck where you are. That is of course if you take spirituality as a process of development. However, that is not what the church says. that is the sad truth of the fallen world and how the devil entered the Church and seperated and corrupted it. But those who stay faithful till the end will inherit the kingdom, that is His promise and God doesnt lie. "We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me." - 1 Tim 1:8-11 "You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine. 2Teach the older men to be temperate, worthy of respect, self-controlled, and sound in faith, in love and in endurance." - Titus 2:1 "In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry. " - 2 Tim 4:1-5 why do you think the Apostle paul gave so much importance to doctrine? style_images/master/snapback.png It is easy to confuse teachings with doctrines. Doctrines as statements of absolute and universal truth are wrong. Specific moral, religious teachings given to specific people is different. You can call it doctrines, it is a matter of semantics. Since truth is infinite it cannot be defined with limited words, therefore, have doctrines if you must, but don't assume that they are absolute and universal. In that case they will be considered guidelines, teachings, law, morality, etc... So, in other words, my take is this: take the contents of the doctrines if you find them useful and practice soulfully. But understand that they maybe appealing to you and not to others. Those doctrines cannot be universal, neither by hook nor by crook. There is nothing wrong if somebody else has different ideas. On the other hand, teachings about the universe are absolute. There are laws that operate in the universe, and they are made one way. So if a doctrine states those truths (e.g. earth is rotating, people die, man has 2 eyes, etc.) then you can't fail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig9 Posted August 19, 2005 Report Share Posted August 19, 2005 Oh, so how long can you last before resorting to personal attacks? Here is a test for your Christianity, try to discuss with patience and decency and give and example of true Christian brotherhood. It is very easy for me to say that your comments are delusion or what not. But such a debate leads nowhwere, so I suggest you revise your attitude. I am sure you won't impress God with your knowledge of doctrines, believe or not. Even if your doctrines were invented 10000 years ago they could be wrong. On the other hand, different churches have conflicting doctrines, and they all maybe more than 1000 years old. So age does not really matter. By the way, Apostles and Saints were not wrong, it was church fathers who were wrong. They were the ones that came up with doctrines and arbitrarily banned a lot of books. Why would they consider Jesus's disciple Thomas's book wrong and exclude from canon? Having a doctrine does not hurt others, but what they did was very damaging because they acted based on their doctrines. Jesus Christ didn't leave any of those doctrines, they were made by later individuals who made churches and doctrines according to their limited understanding and political considerations. Then it got even worse, sectarian conflicts, inquisitions and all sorts of sins followed - all based on doctrines made by themselves, but done in the name of God. These are not personal attacks I am making these observations according to your posts; IE You, Sasun, believe you know more about Christ and Christianity than 2000 years of historically grounded Scripture and Tradition and the people who have spent there lifetime studying Scripture and Tradition. These types of statements are blatantly egotistical and I hope that you recognize that. The reason why your comments are delusional, is that you make contradictory statements, which may I add that other forum members have pointed out is well, and continue to make arbitrary posts without clear resolution or you change your verbiage around to mean something else. Not mentions posts like; I am sure you won't impress God with your knowledge of doctrines, believe or not. How do you know what will and won’t impress God? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted August 19, 2005 Report Share Posted August 19, 2005 These are not personal attacks I am making these observations according to your posts; IE You, Sasun, believe you know more about Christ and Christianity than 2000 years of historically grounded Scripture and Tradition and the people who have spent there lifetime studying Scripture and Tradition. These types of statements are blatantly egotistical and I hope that you recognize that. The reason why your comments are delusional, is that you make contradictory statements, which may I add that other forum members have pointed out is well, and continue to make arbitrary posts without clear resolution or you change your verbiage around to mean something else. Not mentions posts like; How do you know what will and won’t impress God? style_images/master/snapback.png Look, I already said. Number of years is not test for truth. There are older things that are not exactly truthful. By the way, I have learned a lot from Eastern spiritual traditions, and they are much older than Christianity. Having said that, it is not egotistical to point out disagreement with old doctrines. I disagree and speak about it. As to contradictory statements, perhaps you are misunderstanding, or perhaps I am not clear. Either way, I can always try to clarify my point if somebody really wants to know what I mean. In your case, you would rather call me delusional than attempt to understand. But I have better things to do than getting involved in meaningless arguments with individuals who are unwilling to see beyond some doctrines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted August 19, 2005 Report Share Posted August 19, 2005 (edited) fine, ask our church then. Ask your priest what our religion is. style_images/master/snapback.png I wish the priests would find something useful to do. I should not even participate in this debate simply because I cannot understand the intricacies of theology, doctrine and dogma, and I could cre less. Every time I see or hear someone preach Christianity to the Christian I cannot contain myself. I must apologize for using such harsh language, but I hope you understand. In the above post I referred to moving one’s pulpit to Ankara or Baku, I neglected o mention Tehran. Below one such case, and if my memory serves me right there was another similar incident. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haik_Hovsepian_Mehr Haik Hovsepian Mehr (killed January, 1994), was an Iranian bishop, born in Tehran on January 6, 1945. He was the Bishop of the Jamiat-e Rabbani church (part of the Assemblies of God church movement) until his death. While Armenian by ethnicity, he had a strong motivation to evangelize Iranian Muslims. He was an outspoken Christian apologist and evangelist and a gifted musician. Many of his sermons and songs are still available on the Internet. He was responsible for initiating increased collaboration between evangelical churches within Iran after the Iranian Revolution. He was the Chairman of the Council of Protestant Ministers of Iran. Hovsepian Mehr spoke up for the rights of Christians in Iran. In 1993 he was one of only two church leaders to refuse to sign a declaration stating that they would not allow Muslims or Muslim converts into their churches… This is the kind of preaching I m talking about. Do I remember you mentioning the Hamshitsis? Reminds me of the parable of the lost sheep. Matt.18 [12] How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? [13] And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. How many missionaries have we sent to regain them? How many missionaries since the time of Sts. Sahak and Mesrop have we had? It is easy to and safe to preach to us, look what happens when one preaches to them. This will be my last reponse to this thread. I wish Arnenians would go a step further and live the Christian life rather than simply being one. Edited August 19, 2005 by Arpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armjan Posted August 20, 2005 Report Share Posted August 20, 2005 Barev Armjan, I see your point. There is no hard and fast rule to define what is bona fide religion. I don't have a definition, it is something you know it when you see it. While I can't give a fail-proof definition of what true religion is, I can tell you that Jehovah's Witnesses, all the other Christian churches operating in Armenia are valid religious paths. It is a mistake to call them deceivers or what not. this is getting interesting So if religion BIGMAMA is defined by... members must dress up in coco outfits and eat oatmeal. and suppose there was a member claiming to be a follower of BIGMAMA but didn't dress in coco outfits and eat oatmeal, moreover, he claimed that they must eat cereal instead. Is he not considered by his colleagues to be a deciever? The point of this stupid example i gave, if there exists one, is that if a member of a given religion is given/declares membership, and they don't conform to practices as agreed by many within the SAME religion, then they are percieved as deceivers. As you mentioned earlier, the bigger issue here is tolerance, and as soon as you come across human beings that are tolerant of things they can't stand, let me know so I can move there. Don't get me wrong, i can give a hoot less about what John or Vartan believe in, I got my own problems and payments to pay, I don't need no more headache. Well, if you are going by age then Judaism is at least twice as old as Christianity. Would you say that it is more truthful? I don't know what truth is or what it means in general. I was just noting that order is of consequence, I don't think I was inferring anything about truth. Truth as you know is subjective, it means different things to different ppl. And the idea of heresy - it is a false concept, there is no heresy, there are only different understandings and different degrees of truth. style_images/master/snapback.png i want to take this opportunity and appluad your patience Sasun. Count and count again in this forum, you've shown a great deal of respect for ppl who disagree with you/vice versa and still able to present a convincing arguement without enforcing your beliefs on others. You are one of few forum members that i make a point to read what they write, b/c I may just learn something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted August 20, 2005 Report Share Posted August 20, 2005 this is getting interesting So if religion BIGMAMA is defined by... members must dress up in coco outfits and eat oatmeal. and suppose there was a member claiming to be a follower of BIGMAMA but didn't dress in coco outfits and eat oatmeal, moreover, he claimed that they must eat cereal instead. Is he not considered by his colleagues to be a deciever? The point of this stupid example i gave, if there exists one, is that if a member of a given religion is given/declares membership, and they don't conform to practices as agreed by many within the SAME religion, then they are percieved as deceivers. I think the question here is, who defines what to wear and what to eat. Suppose the founding guy only said that members should wear clothes and eat food, leaving it up to the follower to choose the specifics. Then some later dudes determined for whatever reason that anything besides coco outfits and oatmeal is not acceptable. Then it will become a narrow sect of BIGMAMA though it will claim to be the BIGMAMA, the cereal eater also could say that oatmeal eaters are the deceivers right? Then there would be sectarian fights i want to take this opportunity and appluad your patience Sasun. Count and count again in this forum, you've shown a great deal of respect for ppl who disagree with you/vice versa and still able to present a convincing arguement without enforcing your beliefs on others. You are one of few forum members that i make a point to read what they write, b/c I may just learn something. style_images/master/snapback.png Thanks man, I am glad to hear that and appreciate your saying it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djrak Posted August 22, 2005 Report Share Posted August 22, 2005 I wish the priests would find something useful to do. I wish that for everyone not just priests I should not even participate in this debate simply because I cannot understand the intricacies of theology, doctrine and dogma, and I could cre less. Every time I see or hear someone preach Christianity to the Christian I cannot contain myself. I must apologize for using such harsh language, but I hope you understand. don't worry about it, i've been insulted many times for my faith. I hope you are ok and not feeling guilty about it. In the above post I referred to moving one’s pulpit to Ankara or Baku, I neglected o mention Tehran. Below one such case, and if my memory serves me right there was another similar incident. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haik_Hovsepian_Mehr Haik Hovsepian Mehr (killed January, 1994), was an Iranian bishop, born in Tehran on January 6, 1945. He was the Bishop of the Jamiat-e Rabbani church (part of the Assemblies of God church movement) until his death. While Armenian by ethnicity, he had a strong motivation to evangelize Iranian Muslims. He was an outspoken Christian apologist and evangelist and a gifted musician. Many of his sermons and songs are still available on the Internet. He was responsible for initiating increased collaboration between evangelical churches within Iran after the Iranian Revolution. He was the Chairman of the Council of Protestant Ministers of Iran. Hovsepian Mehr spoke up for the rights of Christians in Iran. In 1993 he was one of only two church leaders to refuse to sign a declaration stating that they would not allow Muslims or Muslim converts into their churches… This is the kind of preaching I m talking about. Do I remember you mentioning the Hamshitsis? Reminds me of the parable of the lost sheep. Arpa, are you a pentecostal? I fell in their trap and attendended their church for a while. And I thank God everyday that He took me out of that cult and lead me back to Orthodoxy. I found Christ's Peace and real teachings there, I found His rest there. If you want to discuss it, start a new thread. Peace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djrak Posted August 22, 2005 Report Share Posted August 22, 2005 (edited) What is essential? It is a gospel, a first hand account, isn't it essential? Also, it has things that none of the other gospels have and tells us more what Jesus Christ said. how do you know it's authentic? anyone can write one and claim it authentic. If there is something specific in it that YOU think should be discussed then say it. From my point of view when church is build on dry dogmas and doctrines it is like building on a sand. Doctrine/dogma implies intellectualizing spirituality, something impossible to do. It also limits the truth to certain words and ideas. You can't confine the truth to words, it is not only impossible but also stops one from advancing in truth. As it is we have many limitations, now add to that doctrines and you will be stuck where you are. That is of course if you take spirituality as a process of development. However, that is not what the church says. well dogmqs and doctrines may be dry and may not. You are right you cannot confine the WHOLE truth to words and that is why us humans could never understand the divine which is so much beyond our capabilities AND THAT is exactly why God became man. So we can SEE the truth and be in full communion with Him. What the Church teaches is not mere theory it is the teachings and traditions put by the Apostles for a clear purpose. To bring man closer to God. Then Jesus answered and said: “A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side. But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion. So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, ‘Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.’ So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?” And he said, “He who showed mercy on him.” Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.” - Luke 10:30-37 In the parable of the good samaritan, where the samaritan represents Christ, he healed the wounded man, put him on his annimal (carries our burden) then he took him to the inn which represents the church, where he was to stay and be TREATED, we need treatment and our hospital is the Church and the head doctor is Christ, and nurses are the priests and members of the church. Jesus said do like him meaning care for the sick and poor and at the same time meaning lead my people to my church to get proper intensive care and treatment. And He promises to take care of all the needs just as we should do to our neighbors. It is easy to confuse teachings with doctrines. Doctrines as statements of absolute and universal truth are wrong. Specific moral, religious teachings given to specific people is different. You can call it doctrines, it is a matter of semantics. Since truth is infinite it cannot be defined with limited words, therefore, have doctrines if you must, but don't assume that they are absolute and universal. In that case they will be considered guidelines, teachings, law, morality, etc... So, in other words, my take is this: take the contents of the doctrines if you find them useful and practice soulfully. But understand that they maybe appealing to you and not to others. Those doctrines cannot be universal, neither by hook nor by crook. There is nothing wrong if somebody else has different ideas. On the other hand, teachings about the universe are absolute. There are laws that operate in the universe, and they are made one way. So if a doctrine states those truths (e.g. earth is rotating, people die, man has 2 eyes, etc.) then you can't fail. style_images/master/snapback.png your example is great, about the universe and laws of physics and natural laws. Just as there are universal laws in nature there are universal spiritual laws. Now how accurately do doctrines and teachings translate or lead us to live those is a question of which doctrines, set by whom, and for what purpose. Edited August 22, 2005 by Djrak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig9 Posted August 22, 2005 Report Share Posted August 22, 2005 (edited) I wish the priests would find something useful to do. I should not even participate in this debate simply because I cannot understand the intricacies of theology, doctrine and dogma, and I could cre less. Every time I see or hear someone preach Christianity to the Christian I cannot contain myself. I must apologize for using such harsh language, but I hope you understand. In the above post I referred to moving one’s pulpit to Ankara or Baku, I neglected o mention Tehran. Below one such case, and if my memory serves me right there was another similar incident. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haik_Hovsepian_Mehr Haik Hovsepian Mehr (killed January, 1994), was an Iranian bishop, born in Tehran on January 6, 1945. He was the Bishop of the Jamiat-e Rabbani church (part of the Assemblies of God church movement) until his death. While Armenian by ethnicity, he had a strong motivation to evangelize Iranian Muslims. He was an outspoken Christian apologist and evangelist and a gifted musician. Many of his sermons and songs are still available on the Internet. He was responsible for initiating increased collaboration between evangelical churches within Iran after the Iranian Revolution. He was the Chairman of the Council of Protestant Ministers of Iran. Hovsepian Mehr spoke up for the rights of Christians in Iran. In 1993 he was one of only two church leaders to refuse to sign a declaration stating that they would not allow Muslims or Muslim converts into their churches… This is the kind of preaching I m talking about. Do I remember you mentioning the Hamshitsis? Reminds me of the parable of the lost sheep. Matt.18 [12] How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? [13] And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. How many missionaries have we sent to regain them? How many missionaries since the time of Sts. Sahak and Mesrop have we had? It is easy to and safe to preach to us, look what happens when one preaches to them. This will be my last reponse to this thread. I wish Arnenians would go a step further and live the Christian life rather than simply being one. style_images/master/snapback.png I mentioned the Hamshems. You have some strong convictions. Please be aware of making strong comments about people from "preaching from the pulpit" while you are standing on your "soapbox". If you don't care for the Armenian priests then please do yourself a favor and stop using the alphabet they invented, the history they wrote and the literature, music and culture the preserved. Is it easy and safe to preach to one of "you"? One person makes a comment of - Amen -, and "you" start telling them to get the hell out. The lost sheep are not only the people you mention but, it is also the people are around us as well. I whole heartedly agree with your last point, that is a point well made. Edited August 23, 2005 by Ludwig9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 (edited) how do you know it's authentic? anyone can write one and claim it authentic. If there is something specific in it that YOU think should be discussed then say it. I assume it is as authentic as the other 4 Gospels. We really have no ordinary means to prove that any of of the Gospels are true beyond any doubt. There are other ways to determine the authenticity though... As to Thomas's gospel, I would be happy to discuss it sometime soon. I will open a new thread, right now I am super busy. In the parable of the good samaritan, where the samaritan represents Christ, he healed the wounded man, put him on his annimal (carries our burden) then he took him to the inn which represents the church, where he was to stay and be TREATED, we need treatment and our hospital is the Church and the head doctor is Christ, and nurses are the priests and members of the church. Jesus said do like him meaning care for the sick and poor and at the same time meaning lead my people to my church to get proper intensive care and treatment. And He promises to take care of all the needs just as we should do to our neighbors. This is an interesting interpretation, I wish the existing churches really were the Church that you are talking about. Just as there are universal laws in nature there are universal spiritual laws. Now how accurately do doctrines and teachings translate or lead us to live those is a question of which doctrines, set by whom, and for what purpose. style_images/master/snapback.png This is a very interesting topic, I would like to discuss at length about spiritual laws. Can you bring an example of a spiritual law? I will post later on this subject. I think we can have a fruitful discussion. Maybe we should do so in designated threads because we are getting off topic. Edited August 23, 2005 by Sasun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 I wish that for everyone not just priests don't worry about it, i've been insulted many times for my faith. I hope you are ok and not feeling guilty about it. Arpa, are you a pentecostal? I fell in their trap and attendended their church for a while. And I thank God everyday that He took me out of that cult and lead me back to Orthodoxy. I found Christ's Peace and real teachings there, I found His rest there. If you want to discuss it, start a new thread. Peace style_images/master/snapback.png No Ludwig. Not so much "get the hell out here'" but go where the Avetaran has not been heard. We have heard it, we live it. We don't need to be reminded day in and day out. Am I pentecoocoomanga-caca? What is that? A brand of motor oil For your information I am neither a Pentecostal nor am I apostolic. I am a cynical agnostic. I pick and choose what I want to believe. I have turned off many a door knocker with-” Go find yourself an infidel, we have been Christians many millenia while the likes of you were still worshipping the phallus”. I don’t need another “cult” to justify my existence. I am glad that I waited long enough to see what your alter ego-Ludwig had to say about the subject. Ludwig wrote; I mentioned the Hamshems. You have some strong convictions. Please be aware of making strong comments about people from "preaching from the pulpit" while you are standing on your "soapbox". If you don't care for the Armenian priests then please do yourself a favor and stop using the alphabet they invented, the history they wrote and the literature, music and culture the preserved. Is it easy and safe to preach to one of "you"? One person makes a comment of - Amen -, and "you" start telling them to get the hell out. The lost sheep are not only the people you mention but, it is also the people are us as well. I whole heartedly agree with your last point, that is a point well made It seems both you and Ludwig have fair command of the English language but you may have not noticed that the above is all in the past tense. Let me reiterate, I adore Mesrop, and I adhere to his guidelines, as in Mesrop, not Mesrob, Mashtots not Mahdots. Yet speaking of “past tense”, I wonder if Laudwig, as masterful of the English//Latin languages, does he know the meaning of “anachronism”? Yes, our priests invented the Ayb Ben Gim and they wrote our history, you will notice that all that was in the past tense. What system/font did they use? Was it MS or Unicode? This is the 21st century, let’s talk accordingly. Pentecostal, whatever that may mean, the Armenian church is known as Araqelakan/Apostolic, which means in the model of the Apostles. You tell us what the Apostles did. They went into dangerous territory to spread the Gospel, and speaking of dangerous, many did pay with their lives. That is where the example of that Bishop Haik Hovsepian comes into play, he went into dangerous territory and paid with his life. So! What do say? Are you guys going into such places as Muslim Iran, Muslim Asia Minor and preach the Gospel or following the example of the 19th century European and American missionaries who realized preaching to the Muslim was a virtual death sentence shifted their attention the already Christian Armenian? Isn’t that what you are doing here, preaching to me and our captive (Christian) audience? (I may refer to that under another topic.) I am still waiting to see if you have traveled deep into the hostile and murderous hinterlands of Persia and Anatolia to spread the WORD. There have been others before you on this forum spreading similar garbage, You may searchfind my response to them using any part of Ee Zen Hayer, or Onward Christian Soldiers. Ee Zen Hayer, Onward Christian Soldiers!!! Take your war somewhere else!! We are in peace with our faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djrak Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 No Ludwig. Not so much "get the hell out here'" but go where the Avetaran has not been heard. We have heard it, we live it. We don't need to be reminded day in and day out. if that was the case, you wouldnt have been repulsed by it. Am I pentecoocoomanga-caca? What is that? A brand of motor oil For your information I am neither a Pentecostal nor am I apostolic. I am a cynical agnostic. I pick and choose what I want to believe. I have turned off many a door knocker with-” Go find yourself an infidel, we have been Christians many millenia while the likes of you were still worshipping the phallus”. I don’t need another “cult” to justify my existence. I am glad that I waited long enough to see what your alter ego-Ludwig had to say about the subject. Arpa, your understanding of Christianity and mission is very distorted. You don't want to hear the Word but want others to hear it. Why? Are you claiming to be perfect and not in need of God and His truth in your life anymore? There must be something hidden. Is it revenge? Ludwig wrote; It seems both you and Ludwig have fair command of the English language but you may have not noticed that the above is all in the past tense. Let me reiterate, I adore Mesrop, and I adhere to his guidelines, as in Mesrop, not Mesrob, Mashtots not Mahdots. OH so you blame it on western armenians? is that it? maybe you dont even consider us armenians? or we should have evangelized the world and we failed to quench your avenging thirst against "infidels"? How do you know how God works and what He does and who responds and how? Yet speaking of “past tense”, I wonder if Laudwig, as masterful of the English//Latin languages, does he know the meaning of “anachronism”? Yes, our priests invented the Ayb Ben Gim and they wrote our history, you will notice that all that was in the past tense. What system/font did they use? Was it MS or Unicode? This is the 21st century, let’s talk accordingly. please do Pentecostal, whatever that may mean, the Armenian church is known as Araqelakan/Apostolic, which means in the model of the Apostles. You tell us what the Apostles did. They went into dangerous territory to spread the Gospel, and speaking of dangerous, many did pay with their lives. That is where the example of that Bishop Haik Hovsepian comes into play, he went into dangerous territory and paid with his life. So! What do say? Are you guys going into such places as Muslim Iran, Muslim Asia Minor and preach the Gospel or following the example of the 19th century European and American missionaries who realized preaching to the Muslim was a virtual death sentence shifted their attention the already Christian Armenian? Isn’t that what you are doing here, preaching to me and our captive (Christian) audience? (I may refer to that under another topic.) God's plan of salvation is much deeper and simpler than you think. You say the Apostles were martyred spreading the gospel and that we should do likewise. I agree but as you also said this is the 21st century and let us talk accordingly: God wants everyone to be saved and His plan from the start was to prepare a PEOPLE for Him, not individuals but a PEOPLE and the role the Church has is to prepare that people and keep them in a state of spiritual awareness and alertness just as Jesus instructed the apostles in the garden before His betrayal. If you think you are saved because you have heard the word then YOU ARE WRONG! It is gradual purification as if from fire (as Paul said). And as he sais in Hebrews we should always try to enter His rest so that we dont loose the promise. You are deceived if you think youand the armenian people are saved or are Christians because you are baptized or because you are called "Christians". God took the Jews out of Egypt into the desert to prepare them for the promosed land, and likewise we are now living in the desert and we need preparation. I am still waiting to see if you have traveled deep into the hostile and murderous hinterlands of Persia and Anatolia to spread the WORD. There have been others before you on this forum spreading similar garbage, You may searchfind my response to them using any part of Ee Zen Hayer, or Onward Christian Soldiers. Ee Zen Hayer, Onward Christian Soldiers!!! Take your war somewhere else!! We are in peace with our faith. style_images/master/snapback.png If that is His will and If God gives a believer the mind opportunity and strength to go on such a mission then YES we should, But when i look at our people and see the work that needs to be done, I dont know how i can afford to go to Persia or wherever but i do talk about my faith to muslims and i am not afraid of them nor death. And to be a martyr for His name would be an honour. You just don't know anything about it. Faith is a WHOOOOOOLE different life. You are viewing it from the outside and judging it because you are afraid of it. It is fire let it purify the dirt accumulated on you so that the gold that's underr it may show and shine. God is love and he is a purifying fire, if you are repulsed by it then that would be your loss. The same fire the same word the same love will be salvation for teh one who accepts and condemnation for the one who refuses. Have Peace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djrak Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 I assume it is as authentic as the other 4 Gospels. We really have no ordinary means to prove that any of of the Gospels are true beyond any doubt. There are other ways to determine the authenticity though... As to Thomas's gospel, I would be happy to discuss it sometime soon. I will open a new thread, right now I am super busy. the only means i know of prooving it authentis is if it is alligned with the rest of scripture and the Holy Spirit which serves us as guide. anytime you want to discuss anything in it is cool with me This is an interesting interpretation, I wish the existing churches really were the Church that you are talking about. and don't forget that we are also churches as individuals being temples for the Holy Spirit, so church doesnt only mean the building or institution but it also means the group of believers (dead and alive) and individuals as members of the body of Christ, having Christ as the head seated in Heaven on teh right side of teh father breathin the Holy Spirit into His body as blood flows in our physical bodies. This is a very interesting topic, I would like to discuss at length about spiritual laws. Can you bring an example of a spiritual law? I will post later on this subject. here's one: The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. - John 12:25 I think we can have a fruitful discussion. Maybe we should do so in designated threads because we are getting off topic. style_images/master/snapback.png i learn a lot from discussions and it can be very fruitful as you said, each man has a treasure stored up inside and sharing that with others is like having a feast. Start a new thread anytime bro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armjan Posted August 25, 2005 Report Share Posted August 25, 2005 (edited) No Ludwig. Not so much "get the hell out here'" but go where the Avetaran has not been heard. We have heard it, we live it. We don't need to be reminded day in and day out. So how is your intolerance of D's and L's beliefs any different than their intolerances of other religions? I don’t need another “cult” to justify my existence. Does there need to be a justification for your existence? If you don't wonder about the question, then why bother commenting on the answer? Moreover, why write hurtful remarks against individuals who have decided to answer this question thru their faith. I am still waiting to see if you have traveled deep into the hostile and murderous hinterlands of Persia and Anatolia to spread the WORD. There have been others before you on this forum spreading similar garbage, You may searchfind my response to them using any part of Ee Zen Hayer, or Onward Christian Soldiers. Ee Zen Hayer, Onward Christian Soldiers!!! Take your war somewhere else!! We are in peace with our faith. They will go as soon as you decide to jump out of an airplane without a parachute! A life threatening scenario is just that, life threatening. What's that got to do with the circumstances that got one there? I would prefer a self-reflecting thought over a timely response, and it wouldn't matter if neither occur. Edited August 25, 2005 by armjan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armjan Posted August 25, 2005 Report Share Posted August 25, 2005 (edited) i learn a lot from discussions and it can be very fruitful as you said, each man has a treasure stored up inside and sharing that with others is like having a feast. style_images/master/snapback.png that may be true, but some ppl sound like they are just full of dodo. But that's not what bothers me, it's the fact that they believe that their dodo doesn't stink and they point at others for why others sh!t stinks. That's the irony. They read a couple of books in school and they think they've got it all figured out. Edited August 25, 2005 by armjan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djrak Posted August 25, 2005 Report Share Posted August 25, 2005 But that's not what bothers me, it's the fact that they believe that their dodo doesn't stink and they point at others for why others sh!t stinks. That's the irony. style_images/master/snapback.png we're all sinners we're all dirty and unworthy but that awareness accompanied by faith and repentance allows God to purify us. In that process we start seeing both the dirt that comes out and the treasure that was hidden beneath the surface. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig9 Posted August 26, 2005 Report Share Posted August 26, 2005 we're all sinners we're all dirty and unworthy but that awareness accompanied by faith and repentance allows God to purify us. In that process we start seeing both the dirt that comes out and the treasure that was hidden beneath the surface. style_images/master/snapback.png AMEN!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig9 Posted August 26, 2005 Report Share Posted August 26, 2005 It seems both you and Ludwig have fair command of the English language but you may have not noticed that the above is all in the past tense. Let me reiterate, I adore Mesrop, and I adhere to his guidelines, as in Mesrop, not Mesrob, Mashtots not Mahdots. For your information I am neither a Pentecostal nor am I apostolic. I am a cynical agnostic. Can you please clarify your post, you state that you’re a cynical agnostic and you also adhere to the guidelines of Mesrop Mashtots. Mesrop undoubtedly was not an agnostic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted August 26, 2005 Report Share Posted August 26, 2005 AMEN!! style_images/master/snapback.png Don’t stop please. Tell us how we deserve every calamity befalling us just because we are sinners.. It brings to mind this exchange between Hovsep Emin and the Armenian peasant. When asked why they would not rise from hundreds of years of slavish stupor; Sir, our liberty is in he next world; our king is Jesus Christ“ Emin asked, how? Who told you that? The holy fathers of the Church, who say the Armenian nation has been subject to Mohammedans from the creation of the world and must remain so till the day of Resurrection, otherwise we could soon drive the Othmans out of our country , and it goes further to show how God had sent the Ottomans to punish us for our sins. And please, don’t ever bring the matter of original sin, one of the most cruel and misanthropic inhumane tenets, (just because babies are the fruit of “fornication“?). Sick! Sick! Sick! Speak for yourself. I don’t feel sinful. If you do then subject yourself to the harshest atonement, including but not limited to extending your sinful neck to the Turk for eternal “salvation”. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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