Why Do You Want Recognition?

[Dave]

Lebanon is the only Muslim country that has recognized the AG and that's because of the influential Christian minority.

 

Not to mention a large Armenian community...

 

 

Lebanon is technically not a Muslim country, because it was created for the Maronite Christians.

[Hellektor]

This might be a bit off-topic, but...

 

Isn't it ironic that Syria, where most of the genocide took place, hasn't recognized the Genocide yet ? (regardless Turkey's threats) Does IT have something to hide too??

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However, it doesn't really bother me that the Muslim countries (including Iran where I hail from!) according to their moral duties, don't recognize the AG, what pisses me off is that the axis of evil: The Zionist Israel, The United Kingdom of the Greatest Turkish Phallus Worshippers and their satellite state the United Slaves of Anglia shamelessly put their heads in the sand regarding the Armenian Genocide...

[baboula]

The denial is the result of perverted nationalism, inferiority complex, and inflated pride. They think there is no way the land could be returned back. And this is not only the "Akcams" of this world that think this. Ask Dadrian, Suny or any Armenian historians of the era, and see what they will answer you. This is not just my opinion.

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No, the denial is out of fear. Fear of being convicted and having to pay reperations and returning lands. Even though I wasn't going to bother with your nonsense, I couldn't pass up this opportunity to put your BS about the "healing" in its proper perspective.

 

You wrote: "Turks do not only deny the genocide because they are afraid to have to give the land back."

 

You also wrote:"The recognition of the crime is considered important by psychoanalists for wound healing."

 

Read and you will have a very good and clear answer to your foolishness.

 

 

 

Worldwide Armenian political demands on Turkey have always included land, restitution, and Genocide acknowledgment. Over time, however, the demand for acknowledgment has eclipsed the other demands.

 

Suppose, therefore, that Turkey 's Prime Minister announced today that " Turkey acknowledges that 90 years ago, during a time in which both Turks and Armenians were murdered, some individuals in the Ottoman regime committed genocide against Armenians. Let us and Armenia now begin a new era."

Dead End

 

Would that really heal our collective psyche? Would it be sincere and signify a genuine shift in Turkish attitudes? Would Turkish organizations and individuals cease their Genocide denial? Would the remaining survivors and their descendants receive restitution/reparations?

 

Would Armenia 's security be measurably enhanced? Would Turkey open its border with Armenia ? Would it end its pan-Turkic thrust - similar to the one that spawned the Genocide - into the Caucasus and Central Asia ? Could Armenians resettle in Anatolia/Western Armenia? Would Armenia recover even small amounts of that territory?

 

That the likely answer to each question is “No" should cause us to rethink our emphasis on acknowledgment. Among the political scientists doing that are Dr. Simon Payaslian, Nicolas Tavitian MS, and Dr. Khatchik Der Ghougassian (Armenian Forum, Vol. 2, No. 3, Gomidas.org).

Rethinking Acknowledgment

 

The “essential component” of "historic Armenian lands," says Payaslian, has been “redefined as, or totally replaced by, recognition." Western countries' "commemorative statements that ignore the territorial issue should be rejected."

 

He lists four goals of acknowledgment: territory, emotional healing, restitution, and enhanced international standing for Armenia . Only the last, Payaslian concludes, is realistically achievable through acknowledgment.

 

So is Tavitian: "Striving for genocide recognition has long been a reflex rather than an action toward a goal ... Armenians should rethink their approach."

 

The quest for acknowledgment, Der Ghougassian believes, maintains "vigilance against the Turkish threat.” Acknowledgment might be a "first step" towards "normalization of relations." Nevertheless, "A response to the Genocide must deprive Turkey " of the land it took in the genocide.

 

Clearly, then, we need to rethink the pursuit of acknowledgment. If not, we may regret it.

 

Land and Restitution

 

The European Union (EU), which Turkey aspires to join, is asking Turkey to recognize the Genocide. Suppose Turkey complies.

 

The EU and the US would likely conclude, since the land and restitution issues are not now prominently on the table, that Armenians had received everything they had asked for. For Armenians to subsequently try to drag those two issues into the spotlight would be difficult. And, as argued above, acknowledgment alone is unlikely to benefit Armenia much anyway.

 

Worse, an educated guess is that the West would accept a sham acknowledgment, such as " Turkey regrets the wrongful murder of Armenians in 1915 by the old Ottoman regime."

 

Frankly, acknowledgment, in the absence of the restoration of Armenian rights, may be undesirable. The pursuit of acknowledgment, rather than acknowledgment itself, helps to maintain a strong defensive posture against Turkey and is a valuable tool to keep Armenia 's foe off balance.

 

Placing restitution and territory near the front of our agenda, therefore, serves two purposes. First, Turkey is unlikely to issue an acknowledgment at all, for fear of the consequences. Second, if an acknowledgment does come, Turkey and the West would less able to close the book on the Armenian case.

 

In the meantime, efforts are underway to undermine the restitution and land issues.

State Department Trap

 

John Evans, the US Ambassador to Armenia , and David L. Phillips, a State Department consultant and moderator of the Turkish Armenian Reconciliation Commission (TARC), recently toured the US gleefully claiming that Armenians cannot ask for restitution or land from Turkey .

 

They cite a 2003 "report" sponsored by TARC. The report affirmed the factuality of the genocide, but deviously asserted that the UN's1948 Genocide Treaty cannot be applied retroactively to 1915 and that "legal, financial, or territorial" claims are invalid.

 

Indeed, Phillips hints that four years ago it was he who arranged for President Robert Kocharian to tell Turkish TV that Armenia will not press for restitution or territory.

 

This, then, is the trap being laid for us: the US, and possibly Turkey , may someday issue a Genocide "acknowledgment", but Armenians must abandon all claims, particularly territorial ones, against Turkey .

 

Why is America worried about Turkish territory? Because the State Department, not to mention Europe and Israel , regards eastern Turkey as a vital path to the Caspian Sea region's oil and gas. By disposing of Genocide acknowledgment and trashing Armenian land claims, the State Department hopes to both protect eastern Turkey and more easily penetrate the Caucasus .

The Future

 

Genocide acknowledgment is a vital, and perhaps permanent, weapon in Armenia and the Diaspora's arsenals. It must not be dealt away cheaply.

 

Armenia and the traditional Diasporan political parties should immediately place land and restitution alongside, or close to, the acknowledgment demand.

 

Realistically, of course, Armenia cannot recover territory anytime soon. Still, that territory is vital for long-term security. For example, Armenia requires a secure path to the Black Sea and, therefore, to Europe and Russia . Needless to say, to attain that goal, Armenia must become much stronger. (See "The Armenian Land Question: Misunderstood Terrain," Horizon Weekly, September 6, 2004.)

 

Recovering territory and obtaining material restitution someday will heal our wounds more than all the Turkish acknowledgments in the world. Notice, for example, that as Armenians now control Karabagh and the surrounding territory, the repression and massacres that Azerbaijan inflicted on Armenians in the last 100 years take a back seat.

 

Lastly, we need to better educate ourselves about land and restitution. Genocide related commemorations, lectures, and conferences should emphasize the ongoing geopolitical consequences of 1915: loss of historic lands and individual and historical property, and an adversary that remains committed to a dangerous, pan-Turkic philosophy. Younger generations, particularly - by nature action-oriented - crave such meaty political issues.

 

And if Turkey never acknowledges the Genocide? Security, and the restoration of rights and the Armenian homeland are more important.

 

 

So who you working for QuebecR? TARC? The State Department" Israel?

[Z'areh]

boboula, the above article you quote is a ridiculous piece of mental masturbation, it has all the qualities of demagoguery and not one ounce of seriousness and it makes me sick.

 

On one hand it puts demands of land and restitution...all the way to the Black Sea might I add, then in momentary laps of arguing in defense of his own thesis the author states clearly why the US has interests in keeping Turkey intact, never mind the logic of in whose interests does a pro-Armenian change of the status quo serve?

 

On one hand the author puts forward the need for land that's going to be, what? "given" to us as a vital element for the strengthening the security of Armenia, further proving his illogical child-like recitation without understanding the content that if the land was to be “given” or handed over to us then there would be no issues of “security” in the first place now would there? The only other option would be to take those lands, and taking lands means using force, which means war. Any talk about war naturally brings us to Artsax which the author freely indulges in without mentioning that a territory with 100% Armenian inhabitants it is proving so difficult to get the world powers to accept “the realty on the ground” [our leaders are fond of mentioning at every occasion], to this day it is still unclear what kind of solutions are going to be imposed on us, and what future sacrifices are in store for the people there to be able to maintain the feasibility of a truly independent Artsax enough to satisfy Artsax and Armenia?

 

and you "want" to go all the way to the Black Sea, a land where there are no Armenian inhabitants worth mentioning. Are we in total denial or what??????

 

Who has come forth in identifying what lands we are talking about, would Ararat and Ani be sufficient? do we go further West and ask Kars, go south and ask for Van or go straight North and ask for Trabizond, and what about Cilicia, why ignore that, are they less of Armenian historical lands? What about overlooking international laws that regulate issue between states, in this case the international law has to pass a judgement with an "Armenia" that did not even exist.

 

Also, if we are convinced that we deserve the fruits of the Sevres Treaty and then forget that Karabekir's army almost entirely overran whatever was left of Armenia, then why are we insisting on the Azeris to come to terms with the realities on the ground, why are we insisting that almost twenty years of independence the new generation in Artsax does not even remember being under Azeri rule so returning these lands back to Azerbaijan is out of the question, and military solutions cannot resolve this issue. Very well then, now take that logic and apply it to "Western Armenia", if generations of Turks who were born, lived and died on that land they call Turkey, and almost four generations have passed, and if military solutions are not the way to solve problems then tell me how do you expect to go to the Black Sea? Without getting a visa from the nearest Turkish Consulate, that is.

 

I am sick and tired of boshluff, and sick and tired of Armenian "experts" demanding lands knowing full well they are massaging the brain cells of brainwashed audiences, and I am sick and tired of seeing people allowing their brains to shrink to the size of a pea.

 

If you do not agree with me then have the courtesy in telling me how and with what do you go about in taking whatever land that you seem to want!?

 

I'm all ears.

Edited June 21, 2005 by Z'areh

[Hellektor]

I am sick and tired of Boshluff, and sick and tired of Armenian "experts" demanding lands knowing full well they are massaging the brain cells of brainwashed audiences, and I am sick and tired of seeing people allowing their brains to shrink to the size of a pea.

 

If you do not agree with me then have the courtesy in telling  me how and with what do you go about in taking whatever land that you seem to want!?

 

I'm all ears.

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I'm not an expert, but I think the treaty of Sèvres is one asset we shouldn't ignore for a moment.

How are we going to enforce its ratification?

Well, first of all, the Turkish phallus worshipping states must become disinterested in swallowing Turkish Delight for a change, I don't think that day is too far off.

 

Secondly, we have to find a way to bring back the several hundreds of thousands to a couple of million (other people's estimations not mine) Turkified Armenians who are eager to go back to their roots. I'm not BS-ing out of my head, I heard from some people who visit Western Armenia regularly, that they come and embrace the Armenian tourists, dance with them and express their warm feelings to their fellow Armenians. One of these tourists once said: We Armenians have never bothered to preach Christianity to others why not for a change try to bring back these people to their roots?

 

Thirdly, the treaty of Sèvres also envisages a Kurdish state and sooner or later the Kurds are going to get their way, I think you won't disagree on this.

Of course on one hand the Kurds "apologize" for the atrocities they committed against us, on the other hand they include Western Armenia in their map of Kurdistan, a state that never existed in history. We shouldn't let this happen, and once again the treaty of Sèvres will serve to prevent this.

Once the long awaited day arrives, the Kurds can gradually migrate south while Armenians hopefully will go to live in their homeland. Needless to say the perpetrator of the Genocide must accept all the expenses of the Kurdish migration at least.

This may sound like a dream but there is nothing wrong with it.

[baboula]

boboula, the above article you quote is a ridiculous piece of mental masturbation, it has all the qualities of demagoguery and not one ounce of seriousness and it makes me sick.

 

On one hand it puts demands of land and restitution...all the way to the Black Sea might I add, then in momentary laps of arguing in defense of his own thesis the author states clearly why the US has interests in keeping Turkey intact, never mind the logic of in whose interests does a pro-Armenian change of the status quo serve?

 

On one hand the author puts forward the need for land that's going to be, what?  "given" to us as a vital element for the strengthening the security of Armenia, further proving his illogical child-like recitation without understanding the content that if the land was to be “given” or handed over to us then there would be no issues of  “security” in the first place now would there? The only other option would be to take those lands, and taking lands means using force, which means war. Any talk about war naturally brings us to Artsax which the author freely indulges in without mentioning that a territory with 100%  Armenian inhabitants it is proving so difficult to get the world powers to accept “the realty on the ground” [our leaders are fond of mentioning at every occasion], to this day it is still unclear what kind of solutions are going to be imposed on us, and what future sacrifices are in store  for the people there to be able to maintain the feasibility of a truly independent Artsax enough to satisfy Artsax and Armenia?

 

and you "want" to go all the way to the Black Sea, a land where there are no Armenian inhabitants worth mentioning.  Are we in total denial or what??????

 

Who has come forth in identifying what lands we are talking about, would Ararat and Ani be sufficient? do we go further West and ask Kars, go south and ask for Van or go straight North and ask for Trabizond, and what about Cilicia, why ignore that, are they less of Armenian historical lands? What about overlooking international laws that regulate issue between states, in this case the international law has to pass a judgement with an "Armenia" that did not even exist.

 

Also, if we are convinced that we deserve the fruits of the Sevres Treaty and then forget that Karabekir's army almost entirely overran whatever was left of Armenia, then why are we insisting on the Azeris to come to terms with the realities on the ground, why are we insisting that almost twenty years of independence the new generation in Artsax does not even remember being under Azeri rule so returning these lands back to Azerbaijan is out of the question, and military solutions cannot resolve this issue. Very well then, now take that logic and apply it to "Western Armenia", if generations of Turks who were born, lived and died on that land they call Turkey, and almost four generations have passed, and if military solutions are not the way to solve problems then tell me how do you expect to go to the Black Sea? Without getting a visa from the nearest Turkish Consulate, that is.

 

I am sick and tired of boshluff, and sick and tired of Armenian "experts" demanding lands knowing full well they are massaging the brain cells of brainwashed audiences, and I am sick and tired of seeing people allowing their brains to shrink to the size of a pea.

 

If you do not agree with me then have the courtesy in telling me how and with what do you go about in taking whatever land that you seem to want!?

 

I'm all ears.

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

Masturbation, muff diving hey, whatever turns you on little man.

 

First of all, I think you should lose the attitude. Since I decided to read a few of your posts before making a reply, I noticed that you have a very ugly habbit of insulting people you don't agree with, be they posters or authors, political scientists or whatever and you don't impress me as a person worthy of serious dialog on any subject, but I'll give it a shot anyway just to feel you out a little and see if I'm right or wrong about you.

 

Turkey is not the only way to the Black Sea and it's not waaaaaaaaaaaaaay over there as you imply, it's only around 150KM from Armenia and don't forget that we have land claims from Georgia too (Javakh). Yea I know, you don't want that land either, but that's not for you to decide. When the time comes and the Armenians of that rtegion are ready and willing to fight and retake what is righfully theirs, you can go there and tell them to stop. The other lands we are talking about are clearly identified in the Treaty of Sevres, so you don't really have to go knocking your head against the wall to figure that one out, unless of course you like to create problems where none exists just so you can have something to complain about. As for the azeris comming to terms, personally I don't really care what they come or don't come to terms with. Regardless of what anyone says, the reality of the world today is still the law of the jungle. If the Azeris had the means to take back that land, they would have already done so and the only reason they stopped their aggression was because they were losing more and more territory after every attack, so they finally realized (or "came to terms with" as you like to say) that they would lose it all if they didn't stop. Returning those lands to Azerbaijan is out of the question, because not only did they fight for those lands to win them, but they are Armenian lands, both historically and legally in my opinion, as that land was arbitrarily given to them by someone who had no right to do so, but he had the power to do so at the time (the law of the jungle). As for "military solutions cannot resolve this issue", I consider that as rhetoric. Might is right, you know it and I know it and the rest is just BS.

 

And no, you cannot take that logic and apply it to "Western Armenia", even if generations of Turks who were born, lived and died on that land they call Turkey, reghardless of how many generations have passed, because those lands were aquired through the commission of a crime, a crime of genocide and as we all know, there is no statute of limitations on the crime of genocide and Artsax was not taken by the commission of any crime. Stolen propert is stolen property and it legally belongs to the rightful owner or their heirs, regardless of how many generations the theif has passed it down to. It's a simple and basic rule of law and if you can't understand that, you won't understand anything.

 

Finally, I don't owe you anything. I don't owe you agreement, I don't owe you courtesy, I don't owe you anything. I don't have to tell you, who, what, when, where or why. If we didn't have NK in our posetion right now and someone had said we are going to take it, you would have been telling them they are crazy clowns and calling them this that and the other thing. However, "the reality on the ground" is that we did take it and we still have it, so you would have been completely in the wrong, yet insisting that you are right and everyone else is wrong. Nobody knows anything exept for Z'areh. Z'areh knows everything and everyone else knows nothing and everyone owes Z'areh an explanation of how they're going to achieve their objectives by explaing in detail from A to Z and Z'areh will let them know that their plan is no good, because only Z'areh has the plan and no one else.

 

The day you show courtesy to others and stop calling people clowns, pea-brains or whatever other word from your wonderfully sophisticated vocabulary just because it doesn't follow your line of reasoning, is the day you can expect courtesy in return.

 

BTW, the original topic of this thread and my question was. Do you think that a recognition of the AG by turkey WITHOUT LANDS OR REPERATIONS is acceptable?

Edited June 21, 2005 by baboula

[MosJan]

At First to our new HyeForum Members - welcome

 

 

Now for all of our members - since i'm the only one up at this time -

 

lets be nice - and please no name calling or any insulting

 

we wish to see our forum nice and clean - so please keep it clean !!!

[Z'areh]

Masturbation, muff diving hey, whatever turns you on little man.

 

First of all, I think you should lose the attitude. Since I decided to read a few of your posts before making a reply, I noticed that you have a very ugly habbit of insulting people you don't agree with, be they posters or authors, political scientists or whatever and you don't impress me as a person worthy of serious dialog on any subject, but I'll give it a shot anyway just to feel you out a little and see if I'm right or wrong about you.

 

 

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where have I shown this "habitt" of insulting people?, you seem to be content with those who utter nonesense, otherwise why would you have quoted that article, to me that's an insult on intelligence.

 

and why the personal insults on your part, with a reaction like yours you seem to have some deep unresolved personal issues.

 

as for your answers about "taking back" lands, I'm sorry but you are repeating empty words of demagogues!

Edited June 21, 2005 by Z'areh

[vava]

Ok everyone...

 

It seems that this thread is becoming little more than a tit-for-tat insults. If picking fights and insults are all that's in order, then I'm afraid we'll have to simply close the thread. On the other hand, if you'd like to have a discussion, then great, please be our guest. I would be pleased to re-open this thread a little later once everyone decides to calm down and stop the insults.

 

Thanks