Why Do You Want Recognition?

[baboula]

Why is recognition so important?

 

I see, hear and read from some people that all they want is for turkey to recognize the genocide and nothing more. They don't want reperations/compensation, they don't want land, they only want recognition.

 

Recognition for what? So you can wallow in self pity?

 

Spare me the private message nonsense you don't want to write in the forum about how the turks will get tricked by being told that there will be no demands for lands or reperations, but once they recognize the genocide, they'll have to pay up. If you think you will fool the turks this way, you're only fooling yourself.

Edited June 19, 2005 by baboula

[shaunt]

Two reasons:

 

1) For the sake of justice

 

and

 

2) Some sort of compensation

 

Those Armenians who state that they only want recognition do not understand the legal implications of genocide. That being said, I'm not the one to demand of Turkey that they return Western Armenia to Armenia, and pay Armenians billions upon billions of dollars in compensation.

 

But there are certain things I expect Turkey to do upon recognition of the genocide.

 

Remember that recognition should be like a bandage that is being applied to an open cut; it must heal our people. Both Armenians and Turks must recognize this.

Edited June 19, 2005 by shaunt

[baboula]

Two reasons:

 

1) For the sake of justice

 

and

 

2) Some sort of compensation

 

Those Armenians who state that they only want recognition do not understand the legal implications of genocide. That being said, I'm not the one to demand of Turkey that they return Western Armenia to Armenia, and pay Armenians billions upon billions of dollars in compensation.

 

But there are certain things I expect Turkey to do upon recognition of the genocide.

 

Remember that recognition should be like a bandage that is being applied to an open cut; it must heal our people. Both Armenians and Turks must recognize this.

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OK, but I'm talking about those who do not want any compensation of any sort. They only want recognition and nothing more. Recognition alone is not justice in any sense of the word.

 

As for those who only want recognition, some understand the implications of the "G" word and some don't. Those who don't understand are living in a dream world where once the turks recognize the AG, we will all live together happily ever after. Those who do understand the implications, think that they will pull a fast one on the turks, but they too are living in a dream world.

 

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "That being said, I'm not the one to demand of Turkey that they return Western Armenia to Armenia, and pay Armenians billions upon billions of dollars in compensation. ", please clarify and what are the "certain things" you expect.

 

Maybe it should be like a bandage, but it can never be, because any recognition of the AG by the turks would only happen out of their self intrest and not out of any remorse and any apology would be insincere.

 

Let me put it to you in a more personal way instead. Supposing some thugs broke into your house, killed off half your family after raping all the women and the girls incuding your mother, your wife and your daughters. Looted all your belongings, valuables and moved into your house while you're out on the street. Many years later after all the lies and denials, these thugs (for their own self intrest) said, OK we did do it, but we will not return any of your property or valuables, we will not pay any compensation and we will not return your house to you. Would that bandage heal your wound?

 

For me, there are only two ways to heal those wounds and recognition isn't one of them.

Edited June 19, 2005 by baboula

[Verginne]

Hmmmmmm, do you apply a bandage to a gunshot wound and expect the victim to be good as new???? Edited June 19, 2005 by Verginne

[gamavor]

Why is recognition so important?

 

Very simple!

 

1.Restitution of ALL Armenian properties brutally expropriated in the period 1914-1923 starting from Edirne and Rodosto to Sebastia and Kars.

 

2.Ratification by Turkey of the Treaty of Sevres.

 

Those have nothing to do neither with Turkish aceptance in Europe nor with any "love overtures" between Turks and Armenians. Those are simply a must do things for Turks.

 

And I forgot that those are my personal demands!

[armjan]

Let me put it to you in a more personal way instead. Supposing some thugs broke into your house, killed off half your family after raping all the women and the girls incuding your mother, your wife and your daughters. Looted all your belongings, valuables and moved into your house while you're out on the street. Many years later after all the lies and denials, these thugs (for their own self intrest) said, OK we did do it, but we will not return any of your property or valuables, we will not pay any compensation and we will not return your house to you. Would that bandage heal your wound?

 

For me, there are only two ways to heal those wounds and recognition isn't one of them.

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ok so what do u suggest ?

 

What are the two ways u refer to?

[baboula]

ok so what do u suggest ?

 

What are the two ways u refer to?

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I suggest our day in court. When that happens, it won't matter whether turkey recognizes the AG or not. I really cannot fathom why a criminal would have to admit his guilt in the face of all the evidence and to top it off, the criminal decides if he will pay restitution or return the stolen property to the victims. Their trial should be held in Armenia with the FULL participation and equal say of diaspora Armenians. Or it could be held in a neutral country, but that would be very difficult since it's in many countries intrests for turkey to get away with the crime because many countries benefited and even profited from the AG, so if a trial was to be held, all the dirt would come out and it would be clearly evident that the turks were not in this alone and other countries such as Germany would also have to pay some reperations.

 

The two ways I'm referring to are justice and I'm not talking about ten bucks to buy two boxes of kleenex and a package of bandaids. Or revenge, which I also consider as a form of justice. Either one will do fine.

[baboula]

OK, I'll rephrase my question.

 

Is anyone here willing to accept a recognition of the AG from turkey, without reperations or return of lands.

 

Maybe a poll is in order.

[Dave]

I also want reparations and the return of Western Armenia, but it will not be given to us on a golden plate.

 

I suppose a Turk's main argument against reparations is that the Ottoman Empire/Ittihadist regime and modern Turkey are two different things. If you compare this with Germany's payments to Jews, a Turk would say that Germany chose to pay.

[Arpa]

Why is recognition so important?

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Baboula,

Welcome, we hope you stay.

You raise good thought provoking questions.

First off, are you asking these questions as an Armenian or a Turk provocateur?

These questions have been raised before. Even I, at times have asked.

What if Turkey acknowledeges and RECOGNIZES the Big G?

They may shed some crocodile tears, beat their chests, and recite “mea culpa”. They may say; “Yes we did it, we are guilty. Don’t test and provoke us. We will do again, and again, and again”.

 

We used the R (recognition) word above.

 

I concur with Gamavor. That R word is only a code word. It is only a beginning, we will not recite the rest at the presen, there are several other R words that will surfacde when Ankara acknowledges. Words like REPENTANCE, RESTITUTION, REPARATION and RECLAMMATION (of lands).

Don’t kid yourself, and’t derail us as we know why Ankara is so terrified of the G word, because they know full well that it implies “murder”(of innocent citizens, remember that Saddam had "murdred hi own citizens?)), expropriation of assets, ethnic cleansing of people off their ancestral lands.

Ankara knows that, once it acknowledges the R (recognition) word many other R words will follow, “recognition” of the Armenian Genocide is only the tip of the iceberg which will follow with claims by the Assyrians, the Syrians, the Iraqis, the Pontians, the Greeks, the Lazes, the Bulgarians, and Hamshen Armenians…

Did I leave anyone out?

All bravado aside. Turks are the world’s cowardliest bastards alive. Have you been fol, Have you been following that 'bastard' of ruffled feathers Erdogan’s shuttling between Washington and Berin lest our voice be heard.

That “turkey” has never had its feathers so ruffled before.

 

Keep the cards and letters coming.

 

Those bastards sided with the Central Powers during WWI and the Nazis during WWII. And now it is time for “reckoning”, in Armenian we use the word “hashvehardar”/even-ing of accounts. Speaking of which, we, as followers of that bankrupt Christian nonsense of the “Golden Rule”, we will not rest until we are in a position to “do unto them as they did unto us”.

Genocide” you say?

So be it!

We will not rest until that last turkey is butchered on ourThanksgiving Table.

 

THOSE BASTARD TURKEYS!!!

 

G

Edited June 20, 2005 by Arpa

[armjan]

I suggest our day in court. When that happens, it won't matter whether turkey recognizes the AG or not. I really cannot fathom why a criminal would have to admit his guilt in the face of all the evidence and to top it off, the criminal decides if he will pay restitution or return the stolen property to the victims.

well it's natural in almost every civilized court of justice in the world to prosecute and sentence if/when guilt is found. I don't know why u cannot fathom that!

 

 

The two ways I'm referring to are justice and I'm not talking about ten bucks to buy two boxes of kleenex and a package of bandaids. Or revenge, which I also consider as a form of justice. Either one will do fine.

u'r option 1 is to do nothing about it, so how will this help this issue in any way.

 

so who would you go revenge against. Can u imagine the world news hearing that armenians have started killin turks off? What are u saying.

[armjan]

OK, I'll rephrase my question.

 

Is anyone here willing to accept a recognition of the AG from turkey, without reperations or return of lands.

 

Maybe a poll is in order.

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If the question is about guilt, what's the difference?

 

By asking that question, I assume you have accepted that Turkey is FULLY responsible and u are simply asking for details for the punishment phase.

[DominO123]

The recognition of the crime is considered important by psychoanalists for wound healing.

 

It is like a girl having been raped, and having the criminal next to him laughing and denying and even accusing the girl.

 

The recognition is as well about putting an end to this attempt of burial of the memory of the event with the courps of the victims.

 

While recognition is a collective task, seaking reparation is something more individual.

[DominO123]

The recognition of the crime is considered important by psychoanalists for wound healing.

 

It is like a girl having been raped, and having the criminal next to him laughing and denying and even accusing the girl.

 

The recognition is as well about putting an end to this attempt of burial of the memory of the event with the courps of the victims.

 

While recognition is a collective task, seaking reparation is something more individual.

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I should also add that I don't believe Turkey will ever recognize the genocide.

[Verginne]

, seaking reparation is something more individual.

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How so? Not even remotely possible in most cases. And even then if they get their family property back, what are they supposed to do? Go back and live with turks? You have got to be kidding.

 

What you are saying, as I see it, is asking for nothing in a collective manner.

Edited June 20, 2005 by Verginne

[baboula]

I also want reparations and the return of Western Armenia, but it will not be given to us on a golden plate.

 

I suppose a Turk's main argument against reparations is that the Ottoman Empire/Ittihadist regime and modern Turkey are two different things. If you compare this with Germany's payments to Jews, a Turk would say that Germany chose to pay.

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I would really like to see them try to use that in court.

 

Germany didn't choose anything, they had no choice in the matter. If Germany had said that it was The Third Reich or the Nazi regime who did it, would that have let them off the hook? Today it is called the Federal Republic of Germany, so why are they still paying for something allegedly done by Nazi Germany?

 

Another thing to look at is that it was called turkey back then and even as early as 1895 and probably before that too and not just after the Lausanne treaty and the establishment of the turkish republic in 1923. They also still use the same flag and they're in posetion of the stolen goods.

[baboula]

Baboula,

Welcome, we hope you stay.

 

That will depend. From what I have seen so far of a couple of moderators who seem to like acting real big here on the forum threatening people they don't like and I'm not impressed with their bullying and tough guy acts. Their level of intellect or lack of that shows in their stupid one liners doesn't impress me either. This isn't the first time I have been to a forum where a couple or a few individuals think they're next to godlyness simply because they are a moderator in a forum as they are absolute nobodys in real life and a forum is the only way they can be a somebody, but guess what, to me they're still nobodys. I saw one post where a moderator warned someone about racist remarks. Is this guy retarded or what? So no I don't think this place is for me as I find these types of individuals as am embarrassment to Armenians.

 

You raise good thought provoking questions.

 

If a question doesn't provoke thought, then it's not worth asking.

 

First off, are you asking these questions as an Armenian or a Turk provocateur?

 

What's the difference? It's a question that needs to be asked and needs to be answered, so why would it matter who asks it!? What if I said, yes I'm a turk provacateur, would you believe me? Let's just say I'm an Armenian provacateur and leave it at that.

 

These questions have been raised before. Even I, at times have asked.

 

I have never asked myself that question as to me it is quite simple. Criminals should not be rewarded, they should be punished and the victims should be compensated. Or is it just crazy me that thinks this irrational way?

 

What if Turkey acknowledeges and RECOGNIZES the Big G?

They may shed some crocodile tears, beat their chests, and recite “mea culpa”. They may say; “Yes we did it, we are guilty. Don’t test and provoke us. We will do again, and again, and again”.

 

Quite often there are turks who don't deny there was a genocide and they are proud of it as they think it was some great accomplishment and would give anything to do it again. Don't forget what it was like in them good old days. Can you imagine today where you live suddenly it was open season on a group of people where you could go rape, kill and steal anything you wanted without fear of punishment. Not only that, but you might even get a medal for a job well done. I think the turks miss those days and would like nothing more than a chance to do it again. Azerbaijan 1988 was the proof of that.

 

We used the R (recognition) word above.

 

I concur with Gamavor. That R word is only a code word. It is only a beginning, we will not recite the rest at the presen, there are several other R words that  will surfacde when Ankara acknowledges. Words like REPENTANCE, RESTITUTION, REPARATION and RECLAMMATION (of lands).

 

You forgot redemption. Do you think the turks are capable of redeeeming themselves or repentance? I don't.

 

Don’t kid yourself, and’t derail us as we know why Ankara is so terrified of the G word, because they know full well that it implies “murder”(of innocent citizens, remember that Saddam had "murdred hi own citizens?)), expropriation of assets, ethnic cleansing of people off their ancestral lands.

Ankara knows that, once it acknowledges the R (recognition) word  many other R words will follow, “recognition” of the Armenian Genocide is only the tip of the iceberg which will follow with claims by the Assyrians, the Syrians, the Iraqis, the Pontians, the Greeks, the Lazes, the Bulgarians, and Hamshen Armenians…

Did I leave anyone out?

All bravado aside. Turks are the world’s cowardliest bastards alive. Have you been fol, Have you been following that 'bastard' of ruffled feathers Erdogan’s shuttling between Washington and Berin lest our voice be heard. 

That “turkey” has never had its feathers so ruffled before.

 

That's why I was asking the question. It seems that some people think that the turks will recognize the AG and leave thenselves wide open. This will not happen. Some think that with a simplre recognition, we can kiss and make up. This will not happen either.

 

Keep the cards and letters coming.

 

Those bastards sided with the Central Powers during WWI and the Nazis during WWII. And now it is time for “reckoning”, in Armenian we use the word “hashvehardar”/even-ing of accounts. Speaking of which, we, as followers of that bankrupt Christian nonsense of the “Golden Rule”, we will not rest until we are in a position to  “do unto them as they did unto us”.

Genocide” you say?

So be it!

We will not rest until that last turkey is butchered on ourThanksgiving Table.

 

THOSE BASTARD TURKEYS!!!

 

G

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Remember the Count of Monte Cristo. We as a people are the Count of Monte Cristo.

Edited June 20, 2005 by baboula

[baboula]

The recognition of the crime is considered important by psychoanalists for wound healing.

 

It is like a girl having been raped, and having the criminal next to him laughing and denying and even accusing the girl.

 

The recognition is as well about putting an end to this attempt of burial of the memory of the event with the courps of the victims.

 

While recognition is a collective task, seaking reparation is something more individual.

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

Sorry, but I can't agree with you. It's not at all like a girl being raped. It's more like a girl watching her mother being raped, getting raped herself, then watching as her pregnant mother gets her belly cut open and the babt she is carrying get smashed against a wall and everyone in her family get hacked to pieces and the turk movers into the house. Now the turk says, OK so I did it, but I'm not returning any of the propert I stole, I'm not compensating her and I'm not giving her back the house either. I'm so sure her wounds will heal instantly.

 

Recognition is no more a collective task than is reperations. With your logic, we could also say that the genocide was also an individual task.

[baboula]

I should also add that I don't believe Turkey will ever recognize the genocide.

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If they are given guarantees that they will never have to make reperations, give compensation or return lands, they will, because they will have nothing to lose and everything to gain, but they certainly won't be doing it out of good will. The only reason they are hesitant is because they know there can't be any such guarantee.

Edited June 20, 2005 by baboula

[gamavor]

If they are given guarantees that they will never have to make reperations, give compensation or return lands, they will, because they will have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

 

This is the Turkish plan "B". Recognize the crime, utter some false words of remorse so that the European got satisfied and get in the European train.

 

The truth is that Turks have never considered themselves seriously as Europeans. The only reason why they want to get there is to milk the system. They don't understand Europe. They look at Europe as a holy cow and their membership there is a matter of wrongly perceived pride in order to overcome their imence inferiority complex.

[armjan]

That will depend. From what I have seen so far of a couple of moderators who seem to like acting real big here on the forum threatening people they don't like and I'm not impressed with their bullying and tough guy acts. Their level of intellect or lack of that shows in their stupid one liners doesn't impress me either. This isn't the first time I have been to a forum where a couple or a few individuals think they're next to godlyness simply because they are a moderator in a forum as they are absolute nobodys in real life and a forum is the only way they can be a somebody, but guess what, to me they're still nobodys. I saw one post where a moderator warned someone about racist remarks. Is this guy retarded or what? So no I don't think this place is for me as I find these types of individuals as am embarrassment to Armenians.

 

I have been at this forum longer than you have, and I find this not true. The moderators have done a very good job with quality control.

 

If a question doesn't provoke thought, then it's not worth asking.

I don't find your question to be a provoking, matter of fact, I find it misleading.

Guilt is about intent, severity and participation in the crime. Accountability for the consequences of the crime are upon the perpetrators. So the victims have a right to retrieve what was taken illegally from them.

 

Criminals should not be rewarded, they should be punished and the victims should be compensated.

ok done deal. what's the point of asking your question when you've already figured out the answer.

 

 

Don't forget what it was like in them good old days... suddenly it was open season on a group of people where you could go  rape, kill and steal anything you wanted without fear of punishment. Not only that, but you might even get a medal for a job well done. I think the turks miss those days and would like nothing more than a chance to do it again. Azerbaijan 1988 was the proof of that.

yes, it looks like you've confirmed the bloody nature of past turks.

You seem to know & portray them pretty accurately.

 

 

You forgot redemption. Do you think the turks are capable of redeeeming themselves or repentance? I don't.

They need to accept it first before redemption can happen.

that's the pt, so far it's been all denial.

 

 

Remember the Count of Monte Cristo. We as a people are the Count of Monte Cristo.

who do you mean "we"?

Edited June 20, 2005 by armjan

[Hellektor]

OK, I'll rephrase my question.

 

Is anyone here willing to accept a recognition of the AG from turkey, without reperations or return of lands.

 

Maybe a poll is in order.

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Hi everyone,

 

I've been visiting Hyeforum for quite some time now, finally I decided to participate now and again.

Usually I'm trying to talk some sense into damaged Turkish brains at http://www.armeniangenocide.com

It takes up much time and energy but it's impossible to change their attitudes which are "formed" through some serious lobotomy by their system.

Anyway, is there anyone who could tell me why the treaty of Sèvres is not good enough? It was signed by Turkey, Armenia and the other victorious countries, whereas the Lausanne treaty was imposed on Armenia.

[DominO123]

Sorry, but I can't agree with you. It's not at all like a girl being raped. It's more like a girl watching her mother being raped, getting raped herself, then watching as her pregnant mother gets her belly cut open and the babt she is carrying get smashed against a wall and everyone in her family get hacked to pieces and the turk movers into the house. Now the turk says, OK so I did it, but I'm not returning any of the propert I stole, I'm not compensating her and I'm not giving her back the house either. I'm so sure her wounds will heal instantly.

 

Recognition is no more a collective task than is reperations. With your logic, we could also say that the genocide was also an individual task.

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You're pulling my leggs here. Smashed, butchered etc..., you can add and add..., the general idea was there with the raping analogy. There is no: "OK! I did it" here. There is an: "No, I didn't do it, I didn't raped you, you wanted to have sex, you excited me..." and this with a smile on his face.

 

As for your second paragraph, I can't quite understand how you came from what I wrote, to the conclusion that from the same logic, genocide could be as well interpreted as an individual task. It was the murder of a nation(collectivity) before anything else. There is homeland reconstitution, and there is personal property reparation, both are different.

[DominO123]

Hi everyone,

 

I've been visiting Hyeforum for quite some time now, finally I decided to participate now and again.

Usually I'm trying to talk some sense into damaged Turkish brains at http://www.armeniangenocide.com

It takes up much time and energy but it's impossible to change their attitudes which are "formed" through some serious lobotomy by their system.

Anyway, is there anyone who could tell me why the treaty of Sèvres is not good enough? It was signed by Turkey, Armenia and the other victorious countries, whereas the Lausanne treaty was imposed on Armenia.

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

Treaties mean st, during war, populations are butchered, pushed out, and people signe treaties excluding people that should be involved. There are legal ground for the Sevres Treaty, but there is no any single international court that would ever force it getting ratified, because of what it might involve. Turkey is worlds 6st most armed(army) country, The United states close ally, Israels first(and only) ally on the entire region.

 

We've lost it, they have destroyed the people, and stolen the land..., it is a genocide afteral, if it is not a lost, what is it?

 

It is always easier to take Artsax away from Armenians, than angering Turkey and the Muslim world.

[DominO123]

If they are given guarantees that they will never have to make reperations, give compensation or return lands, they will, because they will have nothing to lose and everything to gain, but they certainly won't be doing it out of good will. The only reason they are hesitant is because they know there can't be any such guarantee.

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Come with me and discuss with Turks for 5 years, and after, let see if you will maintain this. Turks do not only deny the genocide because they are afraid to have to give the land back.