baboula

Not less.

It's funny but you were the only one here at the time they dissapeared. Either you are able to delete and you are lying. Or you went crying to someone who could delete them. Either way, I know you had something to do with it.

You were the only one here when they were deleted. You left and then came back when I reposted averything that was deleted. Do you want to delete them again?

I saw what you did QueBecR! There were some replies made to those jew defenders and you deleted them.

I believe Gerald Levin is the CEO of Time Warner Communications. I also believe that since Armenians never objected when they should have, to such absurd full page ads with statements like "For 10,000 years Turkey has endured" , I guess they decided to take it to the next level since Armenians don't mind getting walked all over and spit upon.

No, it was a Canadian issue. It was a full page ad on the inside back cover page and I'm sure it wasn't the first or only time such false advertizing had been placed in that mag. I have that page seperate from the mag itself, but I can dig it up if you want to know the exact date of the issue. People who have old copies of TIME, should look through them to see if there are other such ads and they are usually full page color ads. P.S. A small correction. The statement actually says, "For 10,000 years Turkey has endured". Same difference but still it's better to quote it exactly.

You are all wrong. Turkey has a history of 10,000 years. I know, because I saw a full page ad in TIME magazine that said, "Turkey has endured for 10,000 years". Correction: It actually says, "For 10,000 years, Turkey has endured".

Who owns TIME?

Masturbation, muff diving hey, whatever turns you on little man. First of all, I think you should lose the attitude. Since I decided to read a few of your posts before making a reply, I noticed that you have a very ugly habbit of insulting people you don't agree with, be they posters or authors, political scientists or whatever and you don't impress me as a person worthy of serious dialog on any subject, but I'll give it a shot anyway just to feel you out a little and see if I'm right or wrong about you. Turkey is not the only way to the Black Sea and it's not waaaaaaaaaaaaaay over there as you imply, it's only around 150KM from Armenia and don't forget that we have land claims from Georgia too (Javakh). Yea I know, you don't want that land either, but that's not for you to decide. When the time comes and the Armenians of that rtegion are ready and willing to fight and retake what is righfully theirs, you can go there and tell them to stop. The other lands we are talking about are clearly identified in the Treaty of Sevres, so you don't really have to go knocking your head against the wall to figure that one out, unless of course you like to create problems where none exists just so you can have something to complain about. As for the azeris comming to terms, personally I don't really care what they come or don't come to terms with. Regardless of what anyone says, the reality of the world today is still the law of the jungle. If the Azeris had the means to take back that land, they would have already done so and the only reason they stopped their aggression was because they were losing more and more territory after every attack, so they finally realized (or "came to terms with" as you like to say) that they would lose it all if they didn't stop. Returning those lands to Azerbaijan is out of the question, because not only did they fight for those lands to win them, but they are Armenian lands, both historically and legally in my opinion, as that land was arbitrarily given to them by someone who had no right to do so, but he had the power to do so at the time (the law of the jungle). As for "military solutions cannot resolve this issue", I consider that as rhetoric. Might is right, you know it and I know it and the rest is just BS. And no, you cannot take that logic and apply it to "Western Armenia", even if generations of Turks who were born, lived and died on that land they call Turkey, reghardless of how many generations have passed, because those lands were aquired through the commission of a crime, a crime of genocide and as we all know, there is no statute of limitations on the crime of genocide and Artsax was not taken by the commission of any crime. Stolen propert is stolen property and it legally belongs to the rightful owner or their heirs, regardless of how many generations the theif has passed it down to. It's a simple and basic rule of law and if you can't understand that, you won't understand anything. Finally, I don't owe you anything. I don't owe you agreement, I don't owe you courtesy, I don't owe you anything. I don't have to tell you, who, what, when, where or why. If we didn't have NK in our posetion right now and someone had said we are going to take it, you would have been telling them they are crazy clowns and calling them this that and the other thing. However, "the reality on the ground" is that we did take it and we still have it, so you would have been completely in the wrong, yet insisting that you are right and everyone else is wrong. Nobody knows anything exept for Z'areh. Z'areh knows everything and everyone else knows nothing and everyone owes Z'areh an explanation of how they're going to achieve their objectives by explaing in detail from A to Z and Z'areh will let them know that their plan is no good, because only Z'areh has the plan and no one else. The day you show courtesy to others and stop calling people clowns, pea-brains or whatever other word from your wonderfully sophisticated vocabulary just because it doesn't follow your line of reasoning, is the day you can expect courtesy in return. BTW, the original topic of this thread and my question was. Do you think that a recognition of the AG by turkey WITHOUT LANDS OR REPERATIONS is acceptable?

No, the denial is out of fear. Fear of being convicted and having to pay reperations and returning lands. Even though I wasn't going to bother with your nonsense, I couldn't pass up this opportunity to put your BS about the "healing" in its proper perspective. You wrote: "Turks do not only deny the genocide because they are afraid to have to give the land back." You also wrote:"The recognition of the crime is considered important by psychoanalists for wound healing." Read and you will have a very good and clear answer to your foolishness. So who you working for QuebecR? TARC? The State Department" Israel?

What a great article! Thank you Skhara, it was just what I needed and so perfect to show that QuebecR here doesn't know what he's talking about and he doesn't realize the concequences to his foolish proposals and that article does it beautifully. It repeatedly states that recognition or acknowledgments without lands or restitution won't do. I agree with you 100% although the way I read some people here, I'm under the impression that they think we should give NK back to the azeris because otherwise we look bad and like aggressors who are only trying to grab land that rightfully belong to the azeris. We displaced the poor azeris and rendered them homeless. In other words, we did exactly the same thing that was done to us in 1915 and now we're no better than the turks as we commited a genocide on the defenseless azeri population. Hey, maybe some reperations to azerbaijan is in order along with returning those lands that don't belong to us and as a good will gesture, we should mark a day of rememberance to the 2 million azeris that perished and erect a monument in their memory in Yerevan. And the next time the turks or azeris attack us, we should shower them with flowers and blow kisses at them, because we want to show that we are not like the turks and the azeris. They rape my daughter, I'll just turn the other cheek and give them my other daughter to rape because that's what my bible tells me to do and after all is said and done, I'll sit in the rubble and ashes of my home surrounded by the death of my people and the destruction of my country so I can forgive, forget and love my azeri neighbor. Then we can say, "We are not like them, we are better."

Hey big shot. I have read some of your posts to other posters here and you haven't been all that respectful to others. In one thread you were threatening one poster about racism but I saw no racism in his/her posts, yet at the same time another poster in the same thread wrote "Why are talking about those f**** Jews again?" (which has now been changed to "Why are talking about those $#%^@ Jews again?" which is basically still the same thing), yet your response to the individual who wrote that was, "well said Arpa, and....." and you went on to threaten the other poster who made no racist remarks whatsoever other then calling them liars, oh what a sin, and you ended with, "Arpa jan nice to see you again here". There was other nonsense you went on and on about. Gorky's works. This isn't the arts section, this is the Genocide section in case you haven't noticed and posting about Gorky here would be somewhat off topi and doesn't belong here. Then you go on about this being an Armenian forum and you want to dictate how an Armenian should act? "This is an Armenian forum, we have so much to talk about, and we are Armenians! Act like one. If you don’t know what that means, do your self’s a favor and find out, hate is not the way to go!" Yes we have much to talk about but it seems we can't talk about anything that doesn't tickle your fancy. Yes this is an Armenian forum and not Edward's forum where he can go pushing his weight around bullying people. You were put as a moderator to see that this forum is productive and discussions kept at a decent level, but that's not what you do, you play the schoolyard bully. Don't confuse anger with hate and don't call truth hate either as that's reserved exclusively for the chosen tribe. There was another poster who refered to others as "clowns". Is it alright if I call you a clown Edward, or are those privelages only for you and your freinds? And that's just a couple of examples of your CONDUCT and that of two other moderators here, but there was much more I saw in a number of threads and as an Armenian, I find it offensive and revolting. Isn't saying turks commited a genocide, a racist hateful comment? I mean you would be accusing the turks by making a blanket statement accusing ALL turks of commiting a henious crime which is called generalizing and it most definately offends some turks and we wouldn't want to offend the turks would we, Edward!? And I guess I shouldn't say anything about Jews denying the AG or I'll get accused of anti-semitism or something. Yea, go ahead and threaten me with banning, this that or whatever and I'll tell you that there's no way I will put up with your, vava's or that guy with the cheese on his head's behaviour and I will leave. With people like you attacking their fellow Armenians in order to defend those who are clearly trying to do our people harm, it's no wonder we experienced a major genocide and we well deserved it as we had no unity then and we certainly don't have unity now and you're the living proof of that.

No it has nothing to hide, it has something to fear from turkey and her freinds.

The turks you seem to have been discussing with for five years are bafoons of no significance. They are not the ones making the decisions now nor will they be the ones making the decisions when the time comes for AG recognition. Also, I don't care how many copies of Taner Akcem's book you own. If it wasn't for fear of reperations and land returns, the turks would be boasting about the genocide they commited instead of terying to fit into a human mask in order to get into the EU. Anyway, from your writing style and thinking patterns, it shows you've been hanging with turkeys for the last five years. So as I requested perviously, please do not reply to my posts and stick to discussions whith turks who seem to be more on your level.

No the general idea was not there. I could even go as far as saying you were minimizing the AG to a simple rape with your analogy. YOU were talking about healing wounds with the recognition, hence "OK, I did it" is the recognition you seem to think will heal the wounds. I'm not surprised you don't understand the second paragraph and I don't think you understood the first one either. Do you even realize what you are writing? There was a murder of a nation collectively before anything? No there wasn't a murder of a nation colectively first. First there were Armenian INDIVIDUALS murdered. Listen buddy, you're no Toynbee, so try keeping your nonsense to a minimum. Churches and schools and such, were not personal property. If a nation is murdered collectively, then they are entitled to reperations collectively. Ever hear of a class action suit? Or do you think that there should be 1.5 million lawsuits against turkey for personal property? Do me and yourself a favor and don't respond to my posts, because I'm not interested in your brand of turkish style nonsense. I already put Armjan on my ignore list because of his comprehension skill deficiency and it looks like you'll be number two.

If they are given guarantees that they will never have to make reperations, give compensation or return lands, they will, because they will have nothing to lose and everything to gain, but they certainly won't be doing it out of good will. The only reason they are hesitant is because they know there can't be any such guarantee.

Sorry, but I can't agree with you. It's not at all like a girl being raped. It's more like a girl watching her mother being raped, getting raped herself, then watching as her pregnant mother gets her belly cut open and the babt she is carrying get smashed against a wall and everyone in her family get hacked to pieces and the turk movers into the house. Now the turk says, OK so I did it, but I'm not returning any of the propert I stole, I'm not compensating her and I'm not giving her back the house either. I'm so sure her wounds will heal instantly. Recognition is no more a collective task than is reperations. With your logic, we could also say that the genocide was also an individual task.

That will depend. From what I have seen so far of a couple of moderators who seem to like acting real big here on the forum threatening people they don't like and I'm not impressed with their bullying and tough guy acts. Their level of intellect or lack of that shows in their stupid one liners doesn't impress me either. This isn't the first time I have been to a forum where a couple or a few individuals think they're next to godlyness simply because they are a moderator in a forum as they are absolute nobodys in real life and a forum is the only way they can be a somebody, but guess what, to me they're still nobodys. I saw one post where a moderator warned someone about racist remarks. Is this guy retarded or what? So no I don't think this place is for me as I find these types of individuals as am embarrassment to Armenians. If a question doesn't provoke thought, then it's not worth asking. What's the difference? It's a question that needs to be asked and needs to be answered, so why would it matter who asks it!? What if I said, yes I'm a turk provacateur, would you believe me? Let's just say I'm an Armenian provacateur and leave it at that. I have never asked myself that question as to me it is quite simple. Criminals should not be rewarded, they should be punished and the victims should be compensated. Or is it just crazy me that thinks this irrational way? Quite often there are turks who don't deny there was a genocide and they are proud of it as they think it was some great accomplishment and would give anything to do it again. Don't forget what it was like in them good old days. Can you imagine today where you live suddenly it was open season on a group of people where you could go rape, kill and steal anything you wanted without fear of punishment. Not only that, but you might even get a medal for a job well done. I think the turks miss those days and would like nothing more than a chance to do it again. Azerbaijan 1988 was the proof of that. You forgot redemption. Do you think the turks are capable of redeeeming themselves or repentance? I don't. That's why I was asking the question. It seems that some people think that the turks will recognize the AG and leave thenselves wide open. This will not happen. Some think that with a simplre recognition, we can kiss and make up. This will not happen either. Remember the Count of Monte Cristo. We as a people are the Count of Monte Cristo.

I would really like to see them try to use that in court. Germany didn't choose anything, they had no choice in the matter. If Germany had said that it was The Third Reich or the Nazi regime who did it, would that have let them off the hook? Today it is called the Federal Republic of Germany, so why are they still paying for something allegedly done by Nazi Germany? Another thing to look at is that it was called turkey back then and even as early as 1895 and probably before that too and not just after the Lausanne treaty and the establishment of the turkish republic in 1923. They also still use the same flag and they're in posetion of the stolen goods.

OK, I'll rephrase my question. Is anyone here willing to accept a recognition of the AG from turkey, without reperations or return of lands. Maybe a poll is in order.

I suggest our day in court. When that happens, it won't matter whether turkey recognizes the AG or not. I really cannot fathom why a criminal would have to admit his guilt in the face of all the evidence and to top it off, the criminal decides if he will pay restitution or return the stolen property to the victims. Their trial should be held in Armenia with the FULL participation and equal say of diaspora Armenians. Or it could be held in a neutral country, but that would be very difficult since it's in many countries intrests for turkey to get away with the crime because many countries benefited and even profited from the AG, so if a trial was to be held, all the dirt would come out and it would be clearly evident that the turks were not in this alone and other countries such as Germany would also have to pay some reperations. The two ways I'm referring to are justice and I'm not talking about ten bucks to buy two boxes of kleenex and a package of bandaids. Or revenge, which I also consider as a form of justice. Either one will do fine.

OK, but I'm talking about those who do not want any compensation of any sort. They only want recognition and nothing more. Recognition alone is not justice in any sense of the word. As for those who only want recognition, some understand the implications of the "G" word and some don't. Those who don't understand are living in a dream world where once the turks recognize the AG, we will all live together happily ever after. Those who do understand the implications, think that they will pull a fast one on the turks, but they too are living in a dream world. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "That being said, I'm not the one to demand of Turkey that they return Western Armenia to Armenia, and pay Armenians billions upon billions of dollars in compensation. ", please clarify and what are the "certain things" you expect. Maybe it should be like a bandage, but it can never be, because any recognition of the AG by the turks would only happen out of their self intrest and not out of any remorse and any apology would be insincere. Let me put it to you in a more personal way instead. Supposing some thugs broke into your house, killed off half your family after raping all the women and the girls incuding your mother, your wife and your daughters. Looted all your belongings, valuables and moved into your house while you're out on the street. Many years later after all the lies and denials, these thugs (for their own self intrest) said, OK we did do it, but we will not return any of your property or valuables, we will not pay any compensation and we will not return your house to you. Would that bandage heal your wound? For me, there are only two ways to heal those wounds and recognition isn't one of them.

Why is recognition so important? I see, hear and read from some people that all they want is for turkey to recognize the genocide and nothing more. They don't want reperations/compensation, they don't want land, they only want recognition. Recognition for what? So you can wallow in self pity? Spare me the private message nonsense you don't want to write in the forum about how the turks will get tricked by being told that there will be no demands for lands or reperations, but once they recognize the genocide, they'll have to pay up. If you think you will fool the turks this way, you're only fooling yourself.