Eastern Armenian-western Armenian

[Arpa]

name='Shahan Araradian' date='May 5 2007, 08:51 PM'

=====

Glad we are on the same page here! (And you are implicitly, therefore, corroborating that the ejective sounds in Eastern Armenian did not exist in Classical Armenian.)

 

Now the question is: How were the other aspirated consonants in today's Armenian (Eastern and Western) pronounced in Classical Armenian? (The full list is: փ թ ք ց ճ).

We are?

Are we really?

I don’t think so.

Here we are to see how Mesrop spent his entire life trying to bring us together, In spite of the prevailing currents of Greek, Assyrian, Aramic, Hebrew and whatever the hell else, and you and your cohorts are trying your damnedest to tear us apart with eastern, western, northern, southern, Beirutsi and Yerevantsi gobbledygook.

Let me ask you one more time. When is the last time you heard how Khorenatsi, Shirakatsi, Narekatsi and Shnorhali spoke in that Classical, assuming you mean/Grabar, vernacular of yours?.

Edited May 5, 2007 by Arpa

[Shahan Araradian]

We are?

Are we really?

I don’t think so.

Here we are to see how Mesrop spent his entire life trying to bring us together, In spite of the prevailing currents of Greek, Assyrian, Aramic, Hebrew and whatever the hell else, and you and your cohorts are trying your damnedest to tear us apart with eastern, western, northern, southern, Beirutsi and Yerevantsi gobbledygook.

Let me ask you one more time. When is the last time you heard how Khorenatsi, Shirakatsi, Narekatsi and Shnorhali spoke in that Classical, assuming you mean/Grabar, vernacular of yours?.

You're mixing emotions into this. This is an intellectual debate on Classical Armenian phonology. NOT on dividing or uniting Armenians.

 

I've already referenced a Classical Armenian language text from a reputable source, showing that ejective consonants did not exist in Classical Armenian. You YOURSELF gave your opinion that փ was really like the Greek Phi. Now that leaves the two other bilabial plosives: բ and պ. The Classical Armenian text I referenced claims բ to represent /b/ (voiced bilabial plosive) and պ to represent /p/ (plain voiceless bilabial plosive). Therefore, there is no room for a fourth bilabial plosive -- that is, an Ejective one! -- since there are only three symbols in Armenian alphabet for bilabial plosives -- բ, պ, and փ.

 

Therefore, Eastern Armenian phonology (which contains ejectives) does not equal Classical Armenian phonology.

 

Make sense?

Edited May 5, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[Arpa]

You're mixing emotions into this. This is an intellectual debate on Classical Armenian phonology. NOT on dividing or uniting Armenians.

 

I've already referenced a Classical Armenian language text from a reputable source, showing that ejective consonants did not exist in Classical Armenian. You YOURSELF gave your opinion that փ was really like the Greek Phi. Now that leaves the two other bilabial plosives: բ and պ. The Classical Armenian text I referenced claims բ to represent /b/ (voiced bilabial plosive) and պ to represent /p/ (plain voiceless bilabial plosive). Therefore, there is no room for a fourth bilabial plosive -- that is, an Ejective one! -- since there are only three symbols in Armenian alphabet for bilabial plosives -- բ, պ, and փ.

 

Therefore, Eastern Armenian phonology (which contains ejectives) does not equal Classical Armenian phonology.

 

Make sense?

NO! YOU MAKE SENSE!

Aside from the gobbledigook of Classical and Assical .

Why are you still trying to draw lines between Gapan and Glendale?

If your knowledge of the Armenian language is limited to not see the connection between Aparantsi and Adanatsi... what can I say?

What the hell difference does it make how Yerevantsis and Beirutsis speak as long as they both claim to be speaking Armenian?

Edited May 5, 2007 by Arpa

[Zartonk]

Therefore, Eastern Armenian phonology (which contains ejectives) does not equal Classical Armenian phonology.

 

I think anyone who is versed enough in Armenian phonology will obviously know this.

[Arpa]

I think anyone who is versed enough in Armenian phonology will obviously know this.

How about Zartonk for king of armenia. (armenia with the lower case A to mean the entire world of Armenians, be they live in Armenia or Zululand.

Edited May 5, 2007 by Arpa

[Gor-Gor]

It is when our so called defenders write “harach and lourch/լուրչ/հարա/չհաչող not realizing that “hachogh/հաչող in fact means “barking(dog)”. The saddest is when a prestigious French-Armenian periodical transliterates ՅԱՌԱՋ as Haratch with that ubiquitous T to make sure that it sounds like the English CH and not the French SH, just like "champagne" is pronounced as "shampeyn". When will our crack intellectuals learn that the Mesropian ՅԱՌԱՋ is meant to sound like HARAJ, not HARACH..

...

Your teachers, whoever hey may be , seems to know beans about the structure of the Armenian language, just like that so called “armenologist" from Istanbul that claims we have three K’s, Գ Կ and Ք and three T’s Դ, Տ and Թ. And so on. Is it any different fro those so called teachers of Armenian in Glendale who still insist that Mesrop invented the AYP PEN QIM TA/ԱՅՓ ՓԵՆ ՔԻՄ ԹԱ and not ԱՅԲ ԲԵՆ ԳԻՄ ԴԱ, AYB BEN GIM DA, to coincide with Alpha Beta, Gamma and Delta. Not Alfa Peta Kama and Telta.

 

 

Aman Der Asdvadz, Arpa!!

 

I don't know how many times I can repeat this.

 

You never seem to actually want to listen -- you just keep spewing out the same things, over and over and over. WE ALL AGREE THAT WESTERN ARMENIAN HAS AN ALTERED PRONUNCIATION SYSTEM. WE ALL AGREE. WE ALL AGREE. WE ALL AGREE!

 

There.

 

WE *ALSO* ALL AGREE THAT NO ONE THINKS MESROB MASHDOTS INTENDED THE ARMENIAN ALPHABET TO SOUND LIKE "AYP PEN KIM TA." So, please -- stop repeating this! It's getting so old. WE ALL KNOW AND ACKNOWLEDGE THIS!

 

Now, having said that, there are 2 remaining issues:

 

1) Do Western Armenians have an obligation to change their pronunciation of the 10 consonants?

 

The answer to this is No. The way WA is pronounced today is a result of years, decades, centuries of evolution in the language. It was a natural progression, especially in the Western Ottoman Empire (ie, Constantinople). That today's Western Armenians are taught to pronounce their language in the way WA intellectuals of the 1800s pronounced it is not a problem. You will hate me for saying this, but this system of pronunciation is our heritage. For good or for bad, we inherited this pronunciation system.

 

Another issue is that even if Western Armenians decided to change the system of pronunciation, I truly believe it would be too difficult to do so. Also, this would create even more problems. The dialect itself is dying as it is -- it doesn't need any more help to die a quicker death. (Imagine, some Western Armenians speak in a certain way, others in another way -- it would create more divisions and help make the dialect even more useless.)

 

2) Second, Eastern Armenian's current pronunciation system is not perfect either. So, assuming Western Armenians wanted to change their pronunciation system, to what system would they change it?

 

---

 

And for the record, as a Western Armenian, I myself do hear the difference between the փ and պ, as they are pronounced in modern Eastern Armenian. After some practice and guidance from Hayastantsi friends, I have been able to pronounce the պ as well, although I can't pronounce it in quick conversation. (This applies also to the other sets of consonants as well.)

 

 

 

[Zartonk]

1) Do Western Armenians have an obligation to change their pronunciation of the 10 consonants?

 

...

 

No. The evolution of language is inreversable. With that in mind, why are we treating this as a wrong/right issue?This shouldn't be seen survival of the fittest.

 

2 variations of 1 language without geographic adjectives.

 

 

 

[Gor-Gor]

No. The evolution of language is inreversable. With that in mind, why are we treating this as a wrong/right issue?This shouldn't be seen survival of the fittest.

 

2 variations of 1 language without geographic adjectives.

 

Thank you!

[Arpa]

So! Why don't we all forget this qaqa about the Armenian language and rediscover our real Ottoman heritage, and resume speaking Turkish where the B/Barev is P as in Parev, and Gagik KAK-ig.

Mind you. Here we may be barking up te wrong tree, հաչում ենք մի ուրիշ ծսռի. We may off topic when we transliterate Hayastan as Հայասդան Hayasdan instead of Հայաստան/Hayastan

Edited May 5, 2007 by Arpa

[Gor-Gor]

So, WA pronunciation was affected by Turkish. SO WHAT!

 

Instead of seeing it as a bad thing, why don't you see the positive side? We lived SIDE BY SIDE with the Turks for 600 years, and the most they could take away from our language was involuntarily causing a change in the pronunciation of 10 consonants and the addition of Turkish words to our slang. We do not speak Turkish today, we do not practice Islam. We speak Armenian, with some Turkish influences. SO WHAT! That influence is part of our history, it is part of what makes us Western Armenian. They tried to kill us, they tried to take away our language, they CUT OUR TONGUES for speaking our language -- but we still speak Armenian! That the Turkish influence on Western Armenian is limited to the pronunciation of some consonants is a testament to the strength and vitality of the Armenian spirit.

 

I don't embrace WA pronunciation BECAUSE of its Turkish influence. I embrace it DESPITE of its Turkish influence. I embrace it because it shows our history and our resilience.

 

So, hate me.

[Zartonk]

2 variations of 1 language without geographic adjectives

 

I reemphasize without geographic adjectives. Have another look at the title of this threat. Yeah. It's STUPID. Call this emotional if you will.

 

Let's just drop it already.

[Shahan Araradian]

So! Why don't we all forget this qaqa about the Armenian language and rediscover our real Ottoman heritage, and resume speaking Turkish where the B/Barev is P as in Parev, and Gagik KAK-ig.

Mind you. Here we may be barking up te wrong tree, հաչում ենք մի ուրիշ ծսռի. We may off topic when we transliterate Hayastan as Հայասդան Hayasdan instead of Հայաստան/Hayastan

What Ottoman heritage? What are you talking about?

 

Ottoman has nothing to do with how Western Armenian phonology is. Point me to ONE academic research that says otherwise!

[Shahan Araradian]

That the Turkish influence on Western Armenian is limited to the pronunciation of some consonants...

This isn't true. No sounds were lost in Western Armenian! (Other than the SAME ones that were lost in Eastern Armenian) Only a SOUND SHIFT occured in Western Armenian. (e.g. /b/ (բ) --> պ; and /p/ (պ) --> բ)

 

Stop with this garbage of how Ottoman/Turkish changed the phonology of Armenian! It didn't!! All sounds REMAIN INTACT!

[Shahan Araradian]

NO! YOU MAKE SENSE!

Aside from the gobbledigook of Classical and Assical .

Why are you still trying to draw lines between Gapan and Glendale?

What are you talking about?

 

If your knowledge of the Armenian language is limited to not see the connection between Aparantsi and Adanatsi... what can I say?

What are you talking about? I have cited ACADEMIC sources from western universities.

 

What the hell difference does it make how Yerevantsis and Beirutsis speak as long as they both claim to be speaking Armenian?

Again. What are you talking about? This is a discussion of the phonologies of Classical, Western, and Eastern Armenian.

 

The debate is about what Classical Armenian phonology was and how it compares to the modern dialects of Western and Eastern Armenian. If you're not interested in this topic, what can I say: don't partake in the discussion!

[Shahan Araradian]

...we transliterate Hayastan as Հայասդան Hayasdan instead of Հայաստան/Hayastan

You are dillusional, my friend. No Western Armenian text writes Հայասդան. What are you talking about?

 

The real issue that needs to be resolved is what the true Classical Armenian phonology was.

 

I've come to the conclusion that You're just wasting time (mine and yours and others')... by your cyclical reasoning and not taking into consideration the evidence you've been presented and going off topic with completely irrelevant claims of "dividing Armenians", etc.

Edited May 6, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[Shahan Araradian]

And for the record, as a Western Armenian, I myself do hear the difference between the փ and պ, as they are pronounced in modern Eastern Armenian. After some practice and guidance from Hayastantsi friends, I have been able to pronounce the պ as well, although I can't pronounce it in quick conversation. (This applies also to the other sets of consonants as well.)

Yes Gor-Gor,

And I'm sure you've kept in mind that the Eastern Armenian պ that represents /p'/ (note: ejective) is a sound non-existent in Classical Armenian.

[Zartonk]

So much for that...

[Gor-Gor]

Yes Gor-Gor,

And I'm sure you've kept in mind that the Eastern Armenian պ that represents /p'/ (note: ejective) is a sound non-existent in Classical Armenian.

 

Oh no I realize that -- I'm just saying it's not impossible to discern a difference between the 2 sounds as they are pronounced today in Armenia and Iran. (It was in response to a comment made by Johannes, I believe, that he couldn't hear the difference.)

[Gor-Gor]

This isn't true. No sounds were lost in Western Armenian! (Other than the SAME ones that were lost in Eastern Armenian) Only a SOUND SHIFT occured in Western Armenian. (e.g. /b/ (բ) --> պ; and /p/ (պ) --> բ)

 

Stop with this garbage of how Ottoman/Turkish changed the phonology of Armenian! It didn't!! All sounds REMAIN INTACT!

 

I should have disclaimed by post by: "If, in fact, Western Armenian's consonant shift was due in part to its close proximity with and inferiority (in numbers) to Turkish, then..."

 

It's always been a hypothesis of mine that WA's pronunciation scheme was a result of being around Turks (and maybe others), who didn't have the so-called "middle sounds" (ejective), but this never explained why բ completely changed its sound. However, now that I have come to learn that ejective sounds are not native to Armenian (and perhaps were never even used by Western Armenians), my hypothesis doesn't have much basis...

[Shahan Araradian]

I should have disclaimed by post by: "If, in fact, Western Armenian's consonant shift was due in part to its close proximity with and inferiority (in numbers) to Turkish, then..."

 

It's always been a hypothesis of mine that WA's pronunciation scheme was a result of being around Turks (and maybe others), who didn't have the so-called "middle sounds" (ejective), but this never explained why բ completely changed its sound. However, now that I have come to learn that ejective sounds are not native to Armenian (and perhaps were never even used by Western Armenians), my hypothesis doesn't have much basis...

Right. Eastern Armenian borrowed ejective sounds from Trans-Caucasian languages such as Georgian.

[Armenak]

I wonder how the Chinese handle these linguistic/dialectal issues? Cantonese, Mandarin, Wu...?

[Էլիա]

Listen Arpa, I'm not trying to divide Armenians! I never said Western Armenian should be divided from Eastern Armenian... they are the same exact language! But, since you started saying things about how Western Armenian is incorrect and that Eastern Armenian is correct, that's why I was trying to show you that you are in fact dividing Armenians by trying to make one look wrong and the other look right! NO DIALECT OF ANY LANGUAGE IS INCORRECT!

 

Shahan and Gor-Gor, good job!

Edited May 6, 2007 by Էլիա

[Shahan Araradian]

NO DIALECT OF ANY LANGUAGE IS INCORRECT!

They are correct within the bounds of their own formal rules.

 

The problem is specifically when one claims the phonology of one to be more "correct" (i.e. closer to Classical Armenian) than another. I have shown that the phonologies of both dialects are flawed when compared to Classical Armenian phonology.

 

In terms of morphology, each form of Armenian has its own rules on how to conjugate verbs and decline nouns, etc.

 

In terms of orthography, the only "authentic" orthography is the traditional one.

[Arpa]

You guys are full of "it".

If you only knew how you are damagaing the cause of that so called western Armenian.

Shahan, please let us know when you locate that audio recording of Narekatsi speaking in classical phonology.

Like I said. This will be my last comment about the subject unless you can produce that audio to show us how Mashtots and Narekatsi pronounced their Բ/Bs and Դ/Ds.

Edited May 7, 2007 by Arpa

[Shahan Araradian]

You guys are full of "gaga".

If you only knew how you are damagaing the cause of that so called western Armenian.

Shahan, please let us know when you locate that audio recording of Narekatsi speaking in classical phonology.

Like I said. This will be my last comment about the subject unless you can produce that audio to show us how Mashtots and Narekatsi pronounced their Բ/Bs and Դ/Ds.

Hurling an insult: that is a typical response from someone who hasn't provided a shred of evidence to back his case. If you had any evidence, you would have cited it, instead of resorting to a personal attack.

 

I am not making a "case" for Western Armenian, nor am I for Eastern Armenian! I am making a case for classical Armenian phonology; and specifically that it did not contain ejective sounds which are present in Eastern Armenian.

 

We don't need audio tapes which are obviously non-existent. Academic research (which I have cited above) has been documented. That's the closest we're going to get in the present time in classical Armenian phonology... And in academia, there seems to be consensus that EJECTIVES are non-existent in classical Armenian.

 

Produce ANY academic text pointing otherwise! (Now *that*'s something you can do. Producing audio tapes of Naregatsi is impossible and therefore helps neither your case nor mine. Producing academic text will do you good, though. And I argue that academic text is on my side: that ejectives have NEVER existed in Classical Armenian phonology, and that Eastern Armenian has borrowed them from trans-caucasian languages).

Edited May 6, 2007 by Shahan Araradian