Eastern Armenian-western Armenian

[Էլիա]

Նոյնիսկ որեւէ կողմի վրայ չեմ՝ «կոր» նիւթին համար, բան մը գտայ «Տղու Հոգի» գիրքին մէջ, որ Շահանին կողմին կ'օգնէ՝ «Բան մը կ'ընենք կոր նէ, լմա՛ն ընենք, կնի՛կ»: Նայեցէ՛ք, թէ ինչպէս «նէ»ն շեղագիրի մէջ է՝ շիտակ հայերէն չըլլալու պատճառով, եւ թէ ինչպէս «կոր»ը շեղագրուած չէ՛: Edited May 31, 2007 by Էլիա

[Shahan Araradian]

lol, Իմ կարծիքովս, «Մի՛ մտահոգուիր...» աւելի յարմար կ'ըլլայ այս պարագային, չէ՞:

Այո: Ճիշտ ես: Ես սխալ կարդացի SASի գրածը: Կարծեցի թէ «անհանգստացնեք» (active verb) գրած էր, որ արդէն քիչ մը ինծի տարօրինակ կը թուէր...

[SAS]

Ծո մանչ, ՍԱՍն ատանկ բաներ չի գրեր:Դուն ինծի պատասխանե, թե արևմտահայերեն ինչպե՞ս կ'ըլլա պայմանական ապառնին:

 

Օրինակ՝

 

Ինչ էլ լինի կը գամ(EA) = Ինչ ալ որ ըլլա կու գամ(WA)

[Էլիա]

?? ????, ???? ????? ????? ?? ????:???? ???? ?????????, ?? ????????????? ??????? ?'???? ?????????? ???????:

 

???????

 

??? ?? ???? ?? ???(EA) = ??? ?? ?? ???? ??? ???(WA)

 

?????? ??????? ???? ??? ???????? ?????? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ????????? ???, ?? ?????? ??????????

 

 

[vahan79]

*** I'm not sure that EA has this distinction in future tense. "Կը" and "պիտի" both approximately mean "will" -- but when you use "պիտի" you are saying that you "actually will" do something, not just that you will. There is more immediacy/definiteness when you use "պիտի."

 

"պիտի" is different in EA and WA. In EA, it isn't really "will," it's more "must", virtually equivalent to "պետք է." So:

 

Pidi kaylem = I must walk

Pidi kaylei = I had to walk

 

[sorry I don't have armenian font, I just cut and paste what others write for the armenian parts...]

 

[Shahan Araradian]

Ծո մանչ, ՍԱՍն ատանկ բաներ չի գրեր:Դուն ինծի պատասխանե, թե արևմտահայերեն ինչպե՞ս կ'ըլլա պայմանական ապառնին:

 

Օրինակ՝

 

Ինչ էլ լինի կը գամ(EA) = Ինչ ալ որ ըլլա կու գամ(WA)

Կարծեմ թէ կ'ըլլայ՝ «Անպայման պիտի գամ»: Նաեւ կը լսենք «անպայման կու գամ»:

Edited May 31, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[vahan79]

What are you basing this on? I think you are right, but you have it backwards. Everyone says "indz," using "im" is not slang. I've had this discussion with Kevork Bardakjian who is a scholar and linguist of Armenian language and I think he is the one that told me that "im" was the correct version.

 

In any event, I don't care. Both are widely used, so both are "right" in my book...

 

Okay, I know I am replying to myself, but I forgot a crucial point on this debate...

 

The possessive/genitive form is probably the "correct" form for another reason. We often say "mot@s" (near me), etc. For example from an old TaTa song that I just happened to hear (and reminded me of this) [not sure I have the line exactly right]...

 

"Yete fayton@s ch'nstes, mot@s ch'gas, ch'sires, menak k'mnam yes arrants kez...arrants keeeeeez" (me "singing")

 

Wait, I just learned about the transliteration typer thingie...is that what everyone uses? Let me try it...it will probably come out all funky....

 

եթե ֆայթոնս չ ՚ նստես, մոտս չ ՚ գաս, չ՚սիրես, մենակ կմնամ ես առանց կեզ.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 5, 2007 by vahan79

[Arpa]

Since this debate has no business under this topic, it is moved out of here;

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=16...mp;#entry203971

Dear Kumkap,, does your screen name have anything to do with this? I deliberately corrupted the URL so as to not advertise them. You can find it using “kumkapi” as your keyword.

/www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7j1LZEt

It is funny that you bring the example of the Texas and New York vernacular. I am a New Yorker that recently happened to spend a week or so in Texas. I spoke to many Texas natives(?) and I did not hear any John Wayne Texan English. In fact, I did bring the subject up and the answer was that many Texans of today are in fact Boston and New York expatriates Of course, I was at the cosmopolitan cities of Texas, not in the hinterland. Our fearless leader GWB is a Texan. Have you heard him speak like John Wayne?

What is so difficult to understand that here we are talking about litereray and formal Armenian, not how some of us, be it Glendale-ian or Beirutsi, speak at home?

Does a Gumretsi speak like a Gorsetsi? They are only a 100 miles apart. But how does a Gumretsi write that is different from that of a Gorsetis. And when a Gumretsi or Gorsetsi becomes the president, how do they speak?

Does a Texan write any different from a New Yorker? Or does a Texan speak like John Wayne (howdy pardner!) when formally addressing the pubic?

armenians seem to be the only people who are so intolerant of one another. does a texan talk the same as a new yorker? does a londoner talk the same way as a geordie (someone from newcastle, nr. scotland)? no. does it matter? no! they're not trying to

inch vor e, tek ker @rek inkzinknit ha

This post has been edited by kumkap: Today, 04:17 AM

Dear Kumkap, you are mixing apples and oranges, or better yet, apricots and pomegranates.

When was the last time anyone criticized how you and others speak in the kitchens and living rooms? Whose business it is whether one speaks turkakharn Hayeren or Russakharn Hayeren, Arabakharn Hayeren or Amerikakharn Hayeren?

Once again, let me repeat. You are mixing apples with oranges . You are talking about how one speaks in their kitchens and how one speaks at the dais at a formal affair. Or better yet, how one speaks in their kitchens and how one writes a formal letter.

Can we please stick to the issues at hand and let MusaLeratsis speak the way they please and Beirutsis speak the way they please as long as they write, znd formally speak with one orthography/phonology that is legible by anyone who knows half way decent Armenian.

And, BTW, I do know furkish and I am aware of all those translations/expressions you used above, and I deliberately and consciously avoid them. Does it make it official just because your grandmothers used them?

Let us please stick to the issue at hand, and stop corrupting the subject. Does the fact my grandparents spoke exclusivelyTurkish, through no fault of theirs, mind you, give me the license to speak Turkish too? Our grandparents died just so that their children and grandchildren not speak that damned language or turkahayeren.

What is our excuse?

Edited June 21, 2007 by Arpa

[Arpa]

Once again these quotes by Kumkap are from that other thread

in my case i learned armenian before turkish so don't worry. you know what they say, inch kan lezu kides aytkan mart es. watching some armenians hysterical reactions to anything turkish is like witnessing Pavlov's dog experiment. i guess we should stop eating dolma, sarma, kofte, and all the other things our grandparents made for us (my grandma made a delicious karni yarik today btw. mmm).

I think my English is quite adequate, and my Armenian is passable too. In fact my English was much better before I came to America. I will spare the details.

Then, why is it that nobody understands what is being said here?

Dear Kumkap, when and who forbade you eating those foods? Maybe you can tell us why we would go out of our ways to avoid using such words as “hamburger, hot dogs, pork chops .. etc” and we try to invent ridiculous words instead? Why do we try to not say words like “computer, radio, television…etc.” and try and invent such ridiculously long and unpronounceable words? Are English and Latin such hateful languages?

“inchkan lezu gites…” Why don’t you tell us the origin of that phrase- “her lisan bir insan”?

we should also stop saying things like "bas barab" (bom bosh), "lep letsun" (dop dolu), "sep sev" (sim siyah), "arudur yelav" (alishverishe cikti), "klukhnis chi prner" (kafalarimiz tutmuyor), "khelk@ klukhn 'e" (akli bashinda), "peshen vazel" (peshinden koshmak) and a thousand other identical phrases in turkish that are part of colloquial armenian, both western and eastern ("qez a kashel" or whatever it is - sana cekmish). even grammatical structures like "desadz pan@s" (görduğum sey) and "yertalik degh" (gidecek yer) which are identical in turkish should be totally excised from the language.

Totally off line…

anyway, so all those examples i gave above are wrong armenian. fine, no argument from me. and western armenian doesn't pronounce armenian phonemes correctly. (by the way they don't pronounce "է" correctly in armenia, they pronounce it like "ա" for some weird reason). but actually my goal is not to speak armenian 100% correctly. it's

We are assuming that Mashtots was a sadistic practical joker for inventing three letters Բ Պ Փ to sound the same and also Գ Կ Ք and Դ Տ Թ.

The letters Ե and Է were never meant to sound the same. The reason why, as you say in Armenia they pronounce it to sound like A/ Ա. According to some the letter Է may have been meant to sound something between E and I, I don’t know what that is meant to sound like. The mere fact that the Է turns to Ի as in declension as in ՍԷՐ /Սիրահար must have a reason. How do you pronounce “eshek/էշէկ”? Do you pronounce it as E as in Եւ/ եշեկ? Don’t you pronounce it as A as in “bad”? We have been instructed to not pronounce the Է as the A as in “bad” and been told that therr is no such sound in Armenian. Are you sure?

Is it because, just like the westerns decided that the sound of E/Է as in “bad” was Turkish and decided to sound it like the “yech” and similarly the easterns decided to sound it like Ա like “Էս ինչ բան ա” rather than “Էս ինչ բան Է”. Do you also notice that այս and էս are interchangeable. Is it because at one time ԷՍ/ԱՅՍ sounded like the way we pronounce the name of the English letter S.

This whole thing started after we met the turks and decided that the A(bad) sound of the Է was from Turkish influence, just like we decided that Իւ (ini hyun) which was originally meant like the German U as in fuehrer was changed to sound like YOU since, once again it would sound like turkish. Ask Mosjan and see how the Musaleratsis still have the sounds of U as in fuehrer, E as in “bad” and OE as in the French “oef”. Ask him to recite “Kermer fstan ecouts e /Կէրմէր ֆստան էգուծ է ” and listen to the sounds. Ask him; "Չիւց իս, աղվիւր իս"? And listen how he pronounces those words. They may be the only Kiliketsi who can still speak their vernacular as it was spoken during the 12th and 13th centuries, with Marashtsis and Hajintsis having all but forgotten their Klilikian barbar, with perhaps the exception of Zeituntsis??? .

I can go on and on, but if we would avoid such English Latin words like “hamburger” but insist to call those Armenian delicacies by their damn names then I rest my case. Why is it that we are so turkified and ottomanized but resist being anglicized as if it were the plague?

How many Armenians do you know with surnames like Bostonian, NewYorkian, LosAngelesian, Smithian, Carpenterian? Look how many of us are called Haleblian, Kayserlian, Istanbulian, Demirjian, and Najarian.. Why is it shame to be called Smith but not a shame to be known as Demirjian? Which Smith, carter/arabajian genocieded us? Which demirji/Demirel?

You can gorge on dolma and sarma. I don’t use those words, we have such boble Armenia words for them like “lits” and “terev”. It took us a 1000 years to be ottoman zed, it may take another 1000 to detoxify.

In conclusion. Dear Kumkap, with all due respects to your grandmother. Did she know how to access this forum when she was at your present age? Now that we know so much more about our history, heritage and laguage.

What is our excuse?

Edited June 22, 2007 by Arpa

[Arpa]

DUH!!! And DOUBLE DUHHHH!!!

Leave it to osman to define which is the proper Armenian.

You mean there still are those among us who don't know the difference between "K@ QAQNENQ" and ""QAQNOUM ENQ" ??? Nrants beran@?

Yet, another stupid attempt to divide the Diaspora from the Homeland!!!

See also reference to the “tackling of the problem” by the Ministry of Diaspora. I wish I could find that debate.

----

ARMENIAN RADIO OF TURKEY SPEAKS "WRONG" DIALECT

 

armradio.am

10.04.2009 13:58

 

The new radio station launched by the Turkish Radio and Television

Corporation, or TRT, on April 2 is using the Eastern Armenian dialect

in its broadcast, used mainly in Armenia, Hurriyet Daily News reports.

 

The rest of the world's Armenian communities, including the one in

Turkey, use Western Armenian, also called "Askharhapar." While the two

dialects cannot be described as totally unintelligible to each other,

different uses of the same words and accents make most communication

between the speakers of the two dialects very problematic in the least.

 

The difference between the Western and Eastern Armenian dialects is

one of the forthcoming subjects on the agenda of the newly founded

Ministry of Diaspora of the Armenian Government.

 

Turkey's Chief Negotiator to the European Union Egemen BagıÅ~_

expressed surprise at the situation last Friday night and said he

will investigate.

 

When told most local Armenians did not understand the broadcasts,

BagıÅ~_ said: "I hadn't a clue. This is the first time I have heard

this. Perhaps TRT could only find news presenters speaking this

dialect, I just don't know. But I will look into it."

One of many threads about the subject;

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=11325&hl=DIALECT

Did not we say that those who KNOW, I mean REALLY KNOW the Armenian language, be it the kakstanbul or Yerevan version have no problem reading and understanding , be it Daniel Varouzhan or Paruyr Sevak???

Pardon me. But those who cannot read and understand Varouzhan or Sevak, simply put, DO NOT KNOW the ARMENIAN LANGUAGE, EAST or WEST.

Then ! Who understands Narek's language better EAST or WEST?

Edited April 12, 2009 by Arpa

[Harut]

this is funny.... but also sad that the armenian reporter has no clue either...

The rest of the world's Armenian communities, including the one in Turkey, use Western Armenian, also called "Askharhapar."

western armenian also called askharhapar???? what? i thought ashkharhabar (at least i think that's what they meant) is what is NOT grabar...

[Arpa]

this is funny.... but also sad that the armenian reporter has no clue either...

The rest of the world's Armenian communities, including the one in Turkey, use Western Armenian, also called "Askharhapar."

western armenian also called askharhapar???? what? i thought ashkharhabar (at least i think that's what they meant) is what is NOT grabar...

Yes, of course "the rest of them speak Grabar, or better yet, Artsakh Dialect"

As if it was enough that we have this battle between te "K@" family and the "OUM" family, now we have a new teacher, osman kakoglu to teach us "proper" Armenian.

[Zartonk]

This report uses the word unintelligible and and describes the exchange between Eastern Armenian and Western Armenian as 'very problematic'. I've said this, and I'll say it again: there just ISN'T such a chasm. Yes, you may have to squeeze those linguistic nooks of your brain slightly out of their comfort zone, but if what you speak is in fact Armenian -versus Armenian-tinged Persian, Russian,...- than failure of communication is simply im-po-ssi-ble. We can't afford to consent any such schismatic flatulence from anywhere.

[Arpa]

This report uses the word unintelligible and and describes the exchange between Eastern Armenian and Western Armenian as 'very problematic'. I've said this, and I'll say it again: there just ISN'T such a chasm. Yes, you may have to squeeze those linguistic nooks of your brain slightly out of their comfort zone, but if what you speak is in fact Armenian -versus Armenian-tinged Persian, Russian,...- than failure of communication is simply im-po-ssi-ble. We can't afford to consent any such schismatic flatulence from anywhere.

Perhaps a bit off topic. As long as we are talking about “language/dialect/ semantics etc.“ look at the headline below. We need better translations. Note the word ‘invaluable”. I ma sure the Armenian word was änarazheq/ անարժեք to mean “useless”/no value” but look what it ended to mean “priceless/valuable/of high value/արժեքաւոր/թանգարժեք” .

Kiro Manoyan: Opening Of The Armenia-Turkey Border Invaluable Without Establishment Of Relations

Goes without saying that we have to watch our “tongue”, and learn to sort vile propaganda from science. See how some people will twist our “words” around.. Remember the play on words about “ÿeghern/calamity/disaster” vs. the Big G., that we never used the G word until after Lemkin coined it. We did. We used words like “tseghaspanoutiun” just like Morgenthau’s “race murder”.

Getting back to “watch our tongue” , I have been reading a hot debate about the Armenian “orthography”, Abeghian v Mashtotsian. And, as always, see how many times we have spoken about the subject, many will take it out of context, when they run out of argument they will invoke the Eastern and Western dialects, not sparing words like “furkish Armenian and Russian Armenian”. One has nothing to do with the other. Some have brought the case of GAGIK, as how it will sound in the bolis dialect, regardless the fact ԳԱԳԻԿ is written as ԳԱԳԻԿ whether in Yerevan or Halep. Then how is that related to “orthography”?

Yes, let us concede that the bolis dialect is wrong and that "kakig", will sound like ,but how does that relate to “orthography” ?

We are so amenable to propaganda and panic.

Önce again, soviet style propaganda and panic state in work. The proponents of the abeghian style argue how much it will cost to revert back, that we don’t have enough teachers familiar with the “classical orthography”, that it will take a thousand years to re- teach our children. The whole argument is about three letters Է Ւ and Օ.

It will take generations for our children to relearn these letters?

Many of our children learn Russian, English, French… and… Aramazt mi Arastseh Chinese with their ten million characters. You mean ro tell me that they cannot learn where and why we have Է, Ւand Օ???

How stupid are our children?

While many of the participants confess to have no problem reading and understanding the likes of Varuzhan, Terian and Sevak

This whole thing is none other tan scare tactic and panic perpetrated by our soviet style so called “scientists” who don’t even know why we have Ե and Է Ոand Օ. Brings to mind when SAS confessed that he could not find reference to լՈշ, when the word is “լՕշծlaush/ԼԱՒՇ լաւաշ“:**

Some of the arguments are, and rightfully so that the Armenian Language has gone through so many phases throughout the centuries, all the way from Urartean, to Grabar, to Middle Armenian, to Ashkharhabar, to Araratian and bolis dialects, then, where is the problem when that stupid “abeghian”, which a shameless attempt to russify /sovietize “ our language, and eventually cyrilize our alphabet , is not even 90 years old, less than even a generation by today‘s standards.? Where is the «ՊՐՈԲԼԵՄ»? You mean an Helepahay like me will have problem understanding a Yerevanhay or visa versa?

WRONG!!!!“

**At the risk of repeating myself, we had no need for the 12th C additions of the letter O as we already had AU/ԱՒ. Those Frankish “ idiots” did not even speak Armenian, when they chose to name their daughter .FIMI/PHIMI/ՓԻՄԻ, an abbreviation of Philomena, instead of Փաարանցեմ. Just as we did not need the letter Ֆ/F as we already had the letter Փ=the Greek PHI as in Philip=Փիլիպոս/filipos/pilipos. See the scriptural similarity of the Greek PHI Φ and the Armenian Փ

PHILOMENA

Gender: Feminine

Usage: English, German

Pronounced: fil-ə-MEEN-ə (English) [key]

Means "friend of strength" from Greek φιλος (philos) "friend" and μενος (menos) "strength". This was the name of an obscure early saint and martyr. The name came to public attention in the 19th century after a tomb seemingly marked with the name Filumena was found in Rome, supposedly belonging to another martyr named Philomena. This may have in fact been a representation of the Greek word φιλομηνη (philomene) meaning "loved".

Edit; I just heard that in Yerevan they are teaching the children that YEV/ԵՒ is a WORD, not a LETTER. What will be next? That ՀՈՏ is odor/smell and ՀՕՏ is herd (of sheep)?? Not to forget, the perhaps incidental similarity of ՀՈՏ and ODOR/smell. Actually it is not incidental as the origin of all is from PIE.

Edited April 14, 2009 by Arpa

[Arpa]

At the risk of sounding like a broken record...

 

To be or not to be?

That is the question!

the two dialects is the word representing the verb “to be” — transliterated as linel in the Eastern

dialect and elal as used in Western Armenian. I have yet to understand how the two terms to mean

the same thing — the very act of being — were put into use, and no one that I’ve asked in the literary

world seems to know. Even the simple present third person singular form of “to be” is pronounced

differently — “eh” as spoken in classical and modern Armenian versus “ah” commonly used in

Eastern Armenian, which has even found its way into print.

 

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=13618&st=0&p=165857&fromsearch=1entry165857

Obviously the above writer does not know real basic Armenian.

We will get back to this…

Լինել թէ չ'լինել?

Ըլլալ կամ չ'լլալ?

Եղնիլ թէ չ'եղնիլ?

Էղնիլ կամ չ'էղնիլ?

 

Yet about the Է/ eh and “Ա/a”. What dialect does he speak?

In Aleppo when most Kiliketsis had lost their native dialects, except, maybe those from Moush and Sasoun, ironically the Assori’s(not Armenian by any definition)from Tigranakert (diyarbakir)and Edessa (oufa) would still use the “A “ to mean “E”.

What dialect dir Komitas speak when he wrote this.

 

Գարուն ա, ձուն ա արել,

Վայ, լէ,լէ,լէ, վայ, լէ, լէ,

 

Իմ յարն ինձնից ա սառել:

Ախ, չորնայ, վախ, այ յար

Չար մարդու լեզուն:

 

Քամին փչում ա պաղ-պաղ,

Լերդ ու թոքս անոմ ա դաղ:

 

Յար, ինձ բէմուրադ արիր,-

Սէրըդ ինձնէ զատ արիր:

 

Լինել թէ չ'լինել?

Ըլլալ կամ չ'լլալ?

Եղնիլ թէ չ'եղնիլ?

Էղնիլ կամ չ'էղնիլ?

 

Այդ է հարցը!

Այս է հարցը!

Դա է հարցը!

Սա է հարցը!

 

Below a thought provoking and timely article.

Timely?

Yes! Here we are splitting the hair and "picking nits" (see what nit-picking means).

Specially at a time when both so called dialects are fast on their way to the dustbin of “history”. Just as our most vociferous debaters, the likes of Shahan, who may have gone back to stanbol, and RIP - Vartahoor who went to that big library in heaven… both of whom spoke with passion, prejudice and hatred, and at times through apertures other than the mouth. Since then many of our "dialecticians" :, just like our "dieticians" have been silent.

We don’t know who the author is, at times he/she sounds like a Yerevantsi, and at other times like a Haleptsi.

Please read the comments.In particular by a one “rahagets”.

We will get and see the particular examples presented, like “լինել/linel/” and ըլլալ/@llal.

To also note that the whole article is talking about the relativel illiterate Yerevan “rabiz/street language” and the Diaspora “kitchen Armenian”. Those who know real Armenian there is no problem/պրոբլեմ չկայ.

http://blog.hetq.am/2011/05/16/case-one-armenian-dialect/comment-page-1/#comment-9396

 

The Case for One Armenian Dialect | Footprints - Armenia

Among the few rifts that exist between people

from the Armenian diaspora and citizens of

the Republic of Armenia are the nuances of

language. There is an ongoing debate,

although perhaps not well publicized, about

which Armenian is “proper” — that which is

taught and spoken throughout the diaspora,

known as Western Armenian, or the Eastern

Armenian dialect spoken by those born in the

Armenian republic and elsewhere, like Iran.

The notable differences between the two

dialects, particularly in vernacular, are such

that it can be quite difficult for Armenians from

opposite sides of the world to understand one

another.

Conversational Armenian spoken in the

republic is often riddled with Russian words

and phrases and also borrows some lexicon

from Turkish as well as Farsi. Spoken

Western Armenian, on the other hand, is often

sprinkled with Arabic or Turkish expressions

by those from the Middle East, while

Armenians in the US may use English or

Turkish words to name something, like food or

clothing. Yet bring two people together, each

speaking a different dialect, and you may find

gaps in comprehension between them. Unless pure, literary Armenian is spoken, which may not be

the case between a tourist visiting Armenia and someone working in the service industry, the dialog

could break down in frustration, with either side concluding that the other cannot speak properly.

This phenomenon does exist, and rather than bringing Armenians together, it can have the opposite

effect, pushing resentment and misunderstanding to the fore.

Of course Armenians from either side of Mount Ararat take pride in the language. Both sides

equally laud Mesrob Mashdots for creating the alphabet at the dawn of the fifth century and praise

the giants of Armenian literature with devout following. Yet the variances in pronounciation, grammar

and even spelling can be confusing. The sounds of several letters have been switched, for instance

p and b and, most remarkably, ts and dz. Perhaps the most intriguing issue of contension between

the two dialects is the word representing the verb “to be” — transliterated as linel in the Eastern

dialect and elal as used in Western Armenian. I have yet to understand how the two terms to mean

the same thing — the very act of being — were put into use, and no one that I’ve asked in the literary

world seems to know. Even the simple present third person singular form of “to be” is pronounced

differently — “eh” as spoken in classical and modern Armenian versus “ah” commonly used in

Eastern Armenian, which has even found its way into print.

There are also notable differences in verb conjugation and overall sentence structure.

The infinitive suffix of many verbs, -il, was phased out of the Armenian spoken in the republic,

replaced by one of the two other variants. Some words seem to have an extra syllable or have been

altered to some degree, for instance the verb “to learn” — sorvil in Western Armenian versus

sovorel in Eastern.

Communication is necessary for the common exchange of ideas, it is essential for creating bonds

between two or more individuals or groups regardless of ethnicity, spirituality or ideology.

Communication in any form, especially electronic in modern times, is defining how the world is

being shaped today. It also traces the development of human ingenuity and thought. Thus, the

inability to convey thoughts and emotions between individuals speaking the same language leads to

fragmentation and alienation in society.

The Armenian language in some ways is finding itself struggling to survive. Outside of Armenia, the

language is arguably decreasingly being used within the confines of diaspora-based communities.

The efforts to teach new diaspora-based generations in speaking and reading the language has

always been challenging with the temptation to assimilate always looming. Even in the republic

properly spoken modern Armenian, known as ashkharabar, runs the risk of being detrimentally

transformed in the next few decades as the slang spoken by the youth and even middle-aged

generations, what I call “Street Armenian,” is being spread via televised programming, which is in

turn broadcast via satellite and viewed by diaspora-based communities. In e-mail and messaging

correspondence the Latin alphabet is used in place of the Armenian for matters of convenience and

compatibility between various computing platforms.

In Armenia I found it problematic for people to understand the most rudimentary words commonly

spoken in Western Armenian but have been replaced by their Russian (or indirectly, French)

counterparts. Even stranger, words I have learned from Eastern Armenian dictionaries are

sometimes (albeit rarely) not understood when I use them in conversation. Moreover I often have

difficulty trying to decipher what teenagers and young men are talking about, and some of them will

potentially be the leaders of Armenia, which is disconcerting.

Thus there needs to be a commonly spoken Armenian taught and spoken around the world. A

consortium should be formed composed primarily of educationalists, modern literary figures

(including publication editors), and linguists. Such a consortium should be charged with developing

a modern, commonly spoken and written Armenian language used universally, thereby eliminating

both dialects in favor of a single, concise comprehensible tongue (village and regional dialects

should be excluded, even promoted to thrive–variances in vernacular and grammar can be found in

arguably any society where a common language is spoken). Once the dust has settled and a

consensus has been reached, the language should be adopted officially by the Republic of Armenia

and in all diaspora-based communities where the Armenian language is taught. Obviously, this will

not be an easy task and it will probably take years for a consensus to be reached, which makes it all

the more essential that efforts get underway without haste.

The Armenian language needs to survive, and in order to do so it needs to adapt to changing times

and alternative ways of communication. Given the current (and future) technological trends in how

we communicate, along with the regional dynamics in perpetual flux, it is already running the risk of

becoming nearly extinct in the next century or two. But by synthesizing the two diverse forms of

Armenian speech, the risks of losing the language to the race with technology and the struggle

against assimilation decrease dramatically. It’s still not too late to start.

What do you think — should the two dialects remain being spoken/written or is it better to have one

dialect used universally?

Edited May 18, 2011 by Arpa

[Arpa]

A totally separate subject maybe?

Where were our neo-dialecticians when Komitas wrote the following - Garun A and Ho ara yez@ ? And Ho Horovel?

Which “dialect” did Komitas speak. Kutahya or Kanaker?

 

Գարուն ա, ձուն ա արել,

Վայ, լէ,լէ,լէ, վայ, լէ, լէ,

 

Իմ յարն ինձնից ա սառել:

Ախ, չորնայ, վախ, այ յար

Չար մարդու լեզուն:

 

Քամին փչում ա պաղ-պաղ,

Լերդ ու թոքս անոմ ա դաղ:

 

Յար, ինձ բէմուրադ արիր,-

Սէրըդ ինձնէ զատ արիր:

 

 

Allow me to rewrite the above in the so called western vernacular.

 

Գարուն է ձիւն է եկեր**

Իմ սիրածը ինձնից է սառեր

Քամին կը փչի պաղ պաղ

Եար, ինձ ան իղձ ըրիր

Սէրըդ ինձմէ զատեցիր

 

**Եկուր եկուր աղուոր աղջիկ

Արի արի քԷ մատաղ

Հո արա եզը արա հօ

 

OH! How I miss this kind of music!!! Those beautiful boys! I cry every time. When did ivan ivinovich produce this kind of “rabizo “music?

Pleas no euro-voro vizhum!!

 

How many here watch that so called garbage “eurovision/vorovizhen?

Edited May 18, 2011 by Arpa

[Sarkis11]

I see that in this thread people are using the words թրքահայերէն and ռուսահայերէն with mistaken meanings and as insults. I am not at all insulted when they tell me I speak Turkish Armenian, or someone else speaks Russian Armenian. Let me elaborate.

 

As someone explained at the beginning, there were innumerable dialects all over the territories populated by Armenians. In the West, the people of Istanbul gathered all the dialects from the Western areas and systematized them in what is known today as Western Armenian. In the East, the Leningrad School gathered and systematized all the dialects from the Eastern areas. Keep this in mind: Istanbul and Leningrad, and a little bit from Tbilisi; not Yerevan, not Bourj Hammoud, not Aleppo, not Teheran, not Paris, not Hollywood, not Glendale.

 

So because one comes from Istanbul, is called Turkish Armenian, and because the other comes from Leningrad is called Russian Armenian. Russian Armenian is not the slang of Yerevan or a mixture of Russian and Armenian; it is the Armenian language systematized in Leningrad. And Turkish Armenian is not the slang of Istanbul or Bourj Hammoud, nor is a mixture of Turkish and Armenian; it is the Armenian language systematized in Istanbul. Therefore the Armenians who speak Eastern Armenian, whether it is in Yerevan, Moscow, Teheran. Hollywood or Pasadena, are speaking Russian Armenian, and the people who speak Western Armenian, whether in Istanbul, Beirut, Aleppo, Glendale or Paris, are speaking Turkish Armenian.

 

So there are պարսկահայեր, but there is no պարսկահայերէն. The language is either թրքահայերէն or ռուսահայերէն, or, with the politically correct names, արեւմտահայերէն and արեւելահայերէն։

 

There is nothing wrong with either one. They are both the same language. As Arpa said earlier, if you really know Armenian, you understand both languages when you read our poets or even our newspapers. Even though I cannot understand the slang of some people here in Glendale or Pasadena, I have no problem reading any Armenian authors from Yerevan, or newspapers or websites. It is the same language.

 

The local slang and the mixing with local languages, be it Russian, Turkish, Farsi, Arabic, French, Spanish or English, are totally different issues. Those “languages” don’t have names; they are not Persian Armenian, Arabic Armenian, or Spanish Armenian. They are just local hybridizations within the colloquial use of people who don’t have a formal education in the language. It is merely circumstantial. If they went to school and learned the proper Armenian words, they would not mix the local languages with Armenian.

 

Even though people often mean it as insults, I don’t feel insulted when someone accuses me of speaking Turkish Armenian. It is a perfectly valid variety of Armenian, as valid as Russian Armenian. Both varieties have outstanding literature. Both varieties are worth preserving and teaching to our children. To say that people who speak Turkish Armenian are lesser Armenians than the rest, or vice-versa, is not acceptable.

[Louise Kiffer]

Thank you for this explanation,it is very interesting. The alphabet is the same, and I can read it, that is important.

And as Arpa said, I can guess when russian armenian is spoken. In anyway the villages dialects are lost, only a few words

are remaining.

[Sarkis11]

In my previous post of July 20, 2011, I had said that Western Armenian had been compiled and systematized in Constantinople, today’s Istanbul, and that Eastern Armenian underwent the same process in Leningrad, Russia, and Tbilisi, Georgia. Well, it so happens that I had read about it long time ago, and didn’t remember the details very well. I just reread it again and realized I had made a mistake that I want to correct now.

 

The main center for the making of Eastern Armenian was not Leningrad (St. Petersburg), as I had said earlier, but Moscow’s Lazarian Armenian Institute. Yes, no doubt that there were Armenian intellectuals in St. Petersburg, but the principal place was Moscow. The other more important centers were Tbilisi, in Georgia, and Astrakhan, in Russia, a city at approximately 1000 km from Armenia, near the Northern tip of the Caspian Sea.

 

Apparently, the Lazarian Institute was founded in 1815 as a “gymnasium” (secondary school) by the Lazarian brothers —Lazarev in Russian— and in 1827 was transferred to the Ministry of Public Education and renamed Lazarev Institute of Oriental Languages. At some point its curriculum was expanded to include an in-depth study of languages for higher grades. Between 1919 and 1920 it was renamed Armenian Institute, then Central Institute of Modern Oriental Languages, and finally Moscow Institute of Oriental Studies.

 

In the 1930s, attendance shrunk dramatically, and the Institute was merged with the foreign language division of the more prestigious schools of Moscow.

 

The Lazarian building is utilized at the present time as the headquarters for the Armenian Embassy of Moscow.

 

In 2001 the Russian government honored the Lazarian Brothers and the Lazarian Institute with a postal stamp bearing the photos of Ivan Lazarian and of the school building. Many important Armenian writers and influential intellectuals were Lazarian Institute graduates.

 

There are some articles about the Lazarian Institute that can be found easily in the Internet. If you can read Armenian, click on the “Armenian” link of the Wikipedia article because the content of the article in Armenian is a little more detailed than that of the English version.