Eastern Armenian-western Armenian

[Gor-Gor]

^ Shahan, while I agree with most everything you stated, we should point out (before he does) that Arpa is Western Armenian by birth. This doesn't make any difference, since you can be prejudiced and biased against your own group -- which describes Arpa to a tee. I just wanted to point this out before Arpa used this point in his reply to try to not respond to the substance of your post (not that he will, anyway). Edited May 25, 2007 by Gor-Gor

[Harut]

It is used in some Eastern Armenian dialects as well. I think the Gyumri dialect uses it. Can anyone confirm? anoushik? Harut...?

 

how do cats meow in gyumri?

 

"meow g@"...

[Arpa]

This middle-aged Eastern Armenian man (Arpa) thinks that by REPEATING his same THEORY (which we have debunked) a hundred times to three Western Armenians under the age of 25 (Elia, Gor Gor, and I) he can convince us that the Western Armenian language is "bad", that it is Turkified, and that we should be ashamed of it. But guess what? We can choose to do the same with Eastern Armenian and its influence from Moscow and Tiflis -- after all, the greatest Eastern Armenian intellectuals of the 19th to early 20th century who created standard Eastern Armenian resided in Tiflis and studied in Moscow! But we (Western Armenians here - Elia, Gor Gor, and I) don't make this claim, even though we can. Why don't we? OUT OF MUTUAL RESPECT and HUMANITY!

 

So, who is this Arpa? Doesn't he have anything better to do, especially when his THEORY has already been debunked by Vahan79? Perhaps a family to raise? Be involved in an Armenian community organization?... CREATE and BUILD Armenian organizations as Western Armenians have been doing for decades in the Armenian Diaspora?

 

We are Western Armenians, and we are proud of the Western Armenian language we speak. We don't claim that the Western Armenian language is superior to Eastern Armenian, and recognize that BOTH Western Armenian and Eastern Armenian have diverged and evolved from the SAME Classical Armenian over centuries (in Phonology, Morphology, Orthography, and sometimes Vocabulary). Both languages have EQUAL standing, as they are both creations of humans....

 

And "-GOR" has legitimate usage in Western Armenian, as does "-OOM" in Eastern Armenian, both for expressing a present continuous tense.

 

Our resolve to speak, cherish, and use the Western Armenian language only INCREASES when confronted which such Eastern Armenian imbeciles as Arpa, who claim superiority of Eastern Armenian and who though have grown physically, are still very juvenile and immature in their social interactions and approach to life.

 

Respect your fellow Armenian's language, so that you in turn are respected. This is an example of the Golden Rule of life.

 

And if you're not going to respect your fellow human and Armenian, then you have no place in this online discussion. You already have nothing valuable to add to this discussion, because you simply continue to parrot your same RACIST theories (toward Western Armenians), even after they have been debunked.

 

You have been revealed as an Eastern Armenian racist towards Western Armenians as evidenced in your comments above, as well as an imbecile for not being able to partake in an academic discussion -- resorting to personal attacks and repeating the same self-created theories which we have already debunked.

 

The only way you can redeem your honor is by treating your fellow Armenians with respect from now on.

YOU KNOW WHAT? ALL OF YOU AND YOUR SO CALLED TURKO-WESTERN ARMENIANS CAN ALL GO TO HELL.

When did I defend Tiflis or Moscow?

How far is Tiflis from Ani, and how far is Istanbul?

And if you still, insist that WA revolves around to "GOR' or not to "GOR", up your "Gor-vor" too.

When it comes to what I have done raising generations of Armenians and contributed to th welfare of our homeland... I will leave that aside, modesty is a part of my non-orthodox upbringing.

Have you looked up and seen how many times I have quoted Varuzhan, Siamanto, Tourian and others? How many times have you or your "gor" brothers?

If your so called western armenian culture is based on "gor" then up your "vor-gor" too.

Edited May 25, 2007 by Arpa

[Zartonk]

Thats it. ENOUGH. One more insult and I will close this down.

[nairi]

You can tell this because the "possessive" form is used for nouns, too (so it follows it would be used for pronounces). For instance: Seghani mot(table's near). Thus, it's "im mot" (my near), but yes, we say "indz mot", too.

 

First of all, no English speaker would say "my near." Instead, they would say "near me." Perhaps that may clarify the rest. "Mot" is not a noun and therefore it cannot be 'possessed' by a person or object. "Seghani vot" (leg of a table) is not the same as "seghani mot" (near the table). The first is a possessive (requiring a noun like "vot") and the second is a locative (requiring a preposition of place like "near" in English, or a postposition like "mot" in Armenian). The confusion with nouns in Armenian is that they look the same as possessives or locatives (e.g. seghani). For pronouns, this is not the case. Just like in English, where there is a difference between "my" and "me," so too in Armenian there is a difference between "im" and "indz." "Im" is possessive, "indz" is locative, in this particular case. So we get "im vot@" (my foot) and "indz mot" (near me). Which is why certain grammarians have opted for "indz" as being the 'correct' form in this case.

[Էլիա]

Էլիա, we love you. Please "remain faithful". , I just stole the nickname of of one our members.

Այո ես շատ լաւ Հայոց Պատմութիւն գիտեմ. Ոչ թէ միայն այն որ քո վարդապետները քեզ կուսուցանեն այլ շատ աւելին. Եւ լեզուականօրէն խօսելով, երեւի ես աւելի հմուտ էմ թե Հայերէնի եւ թե Անգլիերէնի, մի կողմ մի կարք մը այլ լեզուներ.

Dear Elia, can you please elaborate?

You are urging me to learn Armenian History?

Did you understand what I said above?

Did not I say, to get the hell out of Istanbul, be it historically, culturally and linguistically and instead concentrate on Sasu, Moush and Van.

Alright, teach me hitory. When was Istanbul part of Armenia by even a thousand miles?

Go back and find my thread of "MAYRAQAGHAQ" and tell us when Istanbul was a "mayraqaghaq" of Armenia. And tell us where Halep, Beirut or Glendale were capital cities of Armenia. If you were to suggest that Tigranakert, Kars, or Ani, not to forget Erebuni once again become our "mayraqaghaq" I'll go with you all the way, but no force, not all the gods of Armenia will ever force me to even set a foot in Istanbul.

Խնդրեմ ուշ դիր եւ տես թէ մեզմէ ոմանք, շատեր արդէն եղած են այդ բոլոր տեղերը որ դու պիտի այցելես, թէ մենք վերադառնանք այդ ճանապարհէն որ դու տակաւին պիտի ճամբորդես: Եւ պիտի սովորիս որ այդ ճանապարհը լիք է խոչնդոտներով potholes/obstacles որոնք այդտեղ զետեղուած են մեր ոսոխների կողմէ: Գուցէ պիտի հարց տաս թէ ինչու ես երբեմն գրեմ այսպէս կոչուած Արեւելա/ Արեւմտա հայերէնով: Պատասխանը? Ես ծոյլ եմ եւ դիմեմ ամենակարճ ձեւին; Օրինակ մինջ այս դու պիտի անպայման տեսած ըլլաս իմ ալլեերժին/ զգայնումը ի դէպ “ութիւն”: Ինչպէս Յարութիւնը աւելի գերազանց է Յարումին? Սա բառը հիմնուած է Յառնէլ Ելնել կանքնել գալ to come as in “արի“. The Ր becomes Ռ when placed before the N as in արիւն /առնանման Why? I don’t know. Is it because at one time the Ր was elided to Y as in the Zeitun and Hamshen dialect? That is, was it pronounced as “aynanman” instead of “arnanman”?

So! Shoot me. Hang me for jumping to XYZ/ Ւ Փ Ք assuming that the general reader already knows the ABC/ Ա Բ Գ of our culture.

Արփա, ինչո՞ւ կը շարունակես Իսթանպուլի մասին խօսիլ, երբ անյարմար է մեր նիւթին: Յարմար կ'ըլլար, եթէ թուրքահայերու մասին կը խօսէինք, բայց պարագան ասիկա չէ՛: Եթէ պիտի արեւմտեան հայերու մասին խօսիս, ընդհանրութեամբ, հաճիս Իսթանպուլը մի՛ յիշատակեր: Եւ Իսթանպուլը ինչպէ՞ս կապուած է արեւմտեան հայերու հետ. կը կարծես, որ բոլո՞ր արեւմտեան հայութիւնը այդ մասնաւոր քաղաքին մէջ կ'ապրէր: Շա՜տ աւելի քաղաքներ կային, ու դեռ կան, ուր արեւմտեան հայեր կ'ապրէին: Եւ ո՞վ ըսաւ մենք՝ արեւմտեան հայեր, կ'ուզենք Իսթանպուլին երթալ: Այո, Իսթանպուլը Քանսթէնթընոփլն է՛ր, եւ այո, անիկա քաղաք մըն էր, ուր մեծ հայ բնակչութիւն կար, բայց ասիկա ըսել չէ, որ մենք «թուրքութեան» վերածուեցանք: Մենք հայ եղած ենք, դեռ հայ ենք, եւ մի՛շտ հայ պիտի մնա՛նք:

Edited May 26, 2007 by Էլիա

[Էլիա]

YOU KNOW WHAT? ALL OF YOU AND YOUR SO CALLED TURKO-WESTERN ARMENIANS CAN ALL GO TO HELL.

When did I defend Tiflis or Moscow?

How far is Tiflis from Ani, and how far is Istanbul?

And if you still, insist that WA revolves around to "GOR' or not to "GOR", up your "Gor-vor" too.

When it comes to what I have done raising generations of Armenians and contributed to th welfare of our homeland... I will leave that aside, modesty is a part of my non-orthodox upbringing.

Have you looked up and seen how many times I have quoted Varuzhan, Siamanto, Tourian and others? How many times have you or your "gor" brothers?

If your so called western armenian culture is based on "gor" then up your "vor-gor" too.

Արփա, չեմ ուզեր քեզ աւելի բարկացնել, բայց անցեալ «փոստի» մը մէջ, անձ մը (չեմ յիշեր ով) ցոյց տուաւ, որ «կոր»ը կապ չ'ունի թուրքերէնին հետ: Կրնա՞ս հաճիս վերակարդալ՝ «կոր»ին մասին խօսելէն առաջ: Նոյնիսկ «կոր»ը թուրքերէնի հետ կապուած չէ, ես դեռ պիտի չգործածեմ, որովհետեւ եթէ կ'ուզեմ լաւ գրող կամ խօսող ըլլալ, այլ պէտք է բնօրինակ հայերէնին վարժուիմ:

Edited May 26, 2007 by Էլիա

[nairi]

Hi Nairi,

 

Thank you for that insight. But I know it's possible to express a present continuous verb in Eastern Armenian. My question was for Western Armenian (please re-read the challenge). Therefore, already realize that "gor" is not required in E.A. I already gave an example earlier on how it's done in Eastern Armenian using "-??? ??" like in "?? ?????? ??" and "??? ?????? ??".

 

I claim that the "-gor" suffix is how it's done in Western Armenian; and that there's nothing wrong with this. The dialect is what it is. Using "-gor" is no worse or no better than using "-oom."

 

The point was, dear Shahan, that there is no need for "gor" in WA. I don't have an issue with you using "gor" with your friends or fellow dialectal speakers, but why not strive for a "formal" Armenian when you're speaking to speakers of other Armenian dialects or writing in Armenian? When you write in English, do you not strive to write in the English that you were taught at school, rather than the one you learned on the streets? Why not do the same with Armenian? That is, being aware of the difference between slang, local dialect, and standard WA/EA. Perhaps it is this that Arpa has been trying to explain all along.

 

As for an alternative in WA for the present continuous, I think Arpa already gave one: "k@ grem k@." Or even simpler "k@ grem."

[Arpa]

Արփա, չեմ ուզեր քեզ աւելի բարկացնել, բայց անցեալ «փոստի» մը մէջ, անձ մը (չեմ յիշեր ով) ցոյց տուաւ, որ «կոր»ը կապ չ'ունի թուրքերէնին հետ: Կրնա՞ս հաճիս վերակարդալ՝ «կոր»ին մասին խօսելէն առաջ: Նոյնիսկ «կոր»ը թուրքերէնի հետ կապուած չէ, ես դեռ պիտի չգործածեմ, որովհետեւ եթէ կ'ուզեմ լաւ գրող կամ խօսող ըլլալ, այլ պէտք է բնօրինակ հայերէնին վարժուիմ:

Անիկա ես էի.

Խնդրեմ նորէն կարդայ.'Այդ մեր խուլ եղբայրները եւ քոր քոյրերն են որոնք չեն տէսներ թէ ես ինչ կըսեմ: Ես քո ուսուչիցներուն նման”կոր” ը արքիլելու չեմ, այլ այդ Հայերէն յետածանց “ԿԸ” ն ազատել թուրքացած “ԿՈՐ” ից: Թող որ գործ ածենք նա բայց իր բնիկ Հայերէն ձէւով, այսինքն ԿԸ ոչ ԿՈՐ:

Իսկ եթէ իմ պատգամը անընթերնելի է այդ նշանակի որ ես կարող չեմ ոչ Հայերէն խօսիլ ոչ ալ գրել

Edited May 26, 2007 by Arpa

[vartahoor]

I'm not sure what you mean. Vartahoor, I believe, is Barsgahay, and therefore his mother dialect is Eastern Armenian. However, like all Barsgahays, he uses the original orthography. Barsgahays and Western Armenians use all the same spelling rules, with the exception of "ու" and "ւ." For instance, Barsgahays would spell the word գտնուիլ as գտնւիլ. I'm not 100% sure about this, but I believe I'm right. Anyway, I'm going off on a tangent...

 

Vartahoor sometimes also spells according to the abomination that is Soviet orthography. I'm not sure why he does so.

Yes, you are 100% right.

There are three schools of thought regarding «վ», «ու» and «ւ»

1.

2.

3.

The famous lexicographer Stepan Malkhasyants belonged to the first school of thought, iranahays adopted the 3rd school of thought and the WA stuck to the grabar version.

Although I adhere to all the principles of classic orthography, I am sruprised that someoe has called this which in armenian means «մեռած, վախճանւած» and in the case of «the defunct = հանգուցեալ»:

The main reason that I use the classic orthography is to make the postings comprehensible to all.

vartahoor

[Էլիա]

Անիկա ես էի.

Խնդրեմ նորէն կարդայ.

Ոչ, ոչ, ոչ... ես ա՛յս «փոստին» մասին կը խօսէի՝

 

I hadn't read your post at that point and I planned to amend, but too late. Deafness has nothing to do with it, so let's not be silly.

 

In any event, I don't agree that that is necessarily the truth. It is an interesting guess, but I am not sure that that even makes sense:

 

(1) Turkish doesn't use "yor" to mean present continuous, it is used for both regular present and present continuous (as we have said many languages including written WA and written/spoken EA). So, I cna't be convinced that it has to be from that.\

 

(2) When you say "geliyor" and "gediyor" (you mean "gidiyor", I guess, unless you are speaking Azeri), that doesn't really help either because that is only THIRD PERSON SINGULAR. Why would "guh krem guh" change to "guh krem gor" for turkish when the same phrase in Turkish would be "yaziyorum" (I am writing OR I write). Not only is the "yor" embedded in the word, it doesn't really follow why Armenian would extract that root from the center and add it to the end of Armenian words to make it sound the same, even when it doesn't sound even remotely similar.

 

Ben yaziyorum = Yes guh grem (why add gor? how would it sound more like Turkish)

 

In other words, IT DOESN'T RHYME like you are saying it does!!!

 

(3) Even if it is Turkish, who cares?!?! That other dude's argument about Turkish is from different roots than Armenian, unlike Persian, Latin, Russian, etc. That is just stupid. What about Arabic, you forgot Arabic. Is that because you'd have to admit that Arabic is a SEMITIC language, not even Indo-European...???

 

[Էլիա]

Yes, you are 100% right.

There are three schools of thought regarding «վ», «ու» and «ւ»

1.

2.

3.

The famous lexicographer Stepan Malkhasyants belonged to the first school of thought, iranahays adopted the 3rd school of thought and the WA stuck to the grabar version.

Although I adhere to all the principles of classic orthography, I am sruprised that someoe has called this which in armenian means «մեռած, վախճանւած» and in the case of «the defunct = հանգուցեալ»:

The main reason that I use the classic orthography is to make the postings comprehensible to all.

vartahoor

Գիտեմ, որ ասիկա անյարմար է ներկայ նիւթին հետ, բայց հարցում մը ունիմ այբուբենին համար: Երբ այբուբենը կ'ըսես, «վ»ը «vev»ով կ'ըսես եւ «ւ»ը՝ «hyun»ով, չէ՞: Շնորհակալ եմ:

Edited May 26, 2007 by Էլիա

[Shahan Araradian]

The point was, dear Shahan, that there is no need for "gor" in WA. I don't have an issue with you using "gor" with your friends or fellow dialectal speakers, but why not strive for a "formal" Armenian when you're speaking to speakers of other Armenian dialects or writing in Armenian? When you write in English, do you not strive to write in the English that you were taught at school, rather than the one you learned on the streets? Why not do the same with Armenian? That is, being aware of the difference between slang, local dialect, and standard WA/EA. Perhaps it is this that Arpa has been trying to explain all along.

I don't think you understand my point:

 

There is NO other way to express/communicate a present continuous tense in Western Armenian without using the "կոր" suffix. I will give some examples:

 

Western Armenian:

1) "I walk" (simple present tense) --> "Ես կը քալեմ" "Yes gu kalem"

Example usage with context: I walk, then I run, then I bike. Կը քալեմ, կը վազեմ, եւ յետոյ հեծանիւ կը նստիմ:

 

2) "I am walking" (continuous present tense) --> "Ես կը քալեմկոր" "Yes gu kalemgor"

Example usage with context: "I am walking to my car" (Not "I walk to my car"). --> "Ես դեպի ինքնաշարժս կը քալեմկոր:" (Not "Ես դեպի ինքնաշարժս կը քալեմ:")

 

Therefore, by leaving out the "-gor" suffix in writing, you actually LOSE information communicated in speech. I argue that not writing "-gor" is a ridiculous and artificial rule imposed by someone that's caught on. And my logic is self-contained above.

 

As for an alternative in WA for the present continuous, I think Arpa already gave one: "k@ grem k@." Or even simpler "k@ grem."

If a suffix is needed for present continuous (which I think I've shown above), then why should I and other Western Armenians use the "k@" suffix when we already use "kor"/gor/կոր for this purpose? His claim that կոր is Turkish is unproven and has been debunked by Vahan79 above.

Edited May 26, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[Arpa]

I don't think you understand my point:

 

There is NO other way to express/communicate a present continuous tense in Western Armenian without using the "կոր" suffix. I will give some examples:

 

Western Armenian:

1) "I walk" (simple present tense) --> "Ես կը քալեմ" "Yes gu kalem"

Example usage with context: I walk, then I run, then I bike. Կը քալեմ, կը վազեմ, եւ յետոյ հեծանիւ կը նստիմ:

 

2) "I am walking" (continuous present tense) --> "Ես կը քալեմկոր" "Yes gu kalemgor"

Example usage with context: "I am walking to my car" (Not "I walk to my car"). --> "Ես դեպի ինքնաշարժս կը քալեմկոր:" (Not "Ես դեպի ինքնաշարժս կը քալեմ:")

Why should I and other Western Armenians use the "k@" suffix when we already use "kor"/gor/կոր? His claim that կոր is Turkish is unproven and has been debunked by Vahan79 above.

What an idiot! When did I say "kor" is Turkish? I said, and will repeat that it is turkified/istanbulized form of our VERY ARMENIAN K@ DUHHHH!!!!

All I say is. GOR is so vulgar and ugly sounding խժալուր that I will not miss it if I never heard it sgain. Send it back to the sewers of Istanbul. Give us back our noble "k@.

Edited May 26, 2007 by Arpa

[Shahan Araradian]

What an idiot! When did I say "kor" is Turkish? I said, and will repeat that it is turkified/istanbulized form of our VERY ARMENIAN K@ DUHHHH!!!!

Turkish/Turkified --> same essential meaning --> that of deriding the Istanbul dialect. Even if it IS Turkified (which Vahan79 has argued and shown that it's not) what's wrong with borrowing from Turkish when we've also borrowed from Latin, Greek, Hebrew, Persian, Arabic, and Georgian?

 

So what! Turkish is just another language!

[Էլիա]

I don't think you understand my point:

 

There is NO other way to express/communicate a present continuous tense in Western Armenian without using the "կոր" suffix. I will give some examples:

 

Western Armenian:

1) "I walk" (simple present tense) --> "Ես կը քալեմ" "Yes gu kalem"

Example usage with context: I walk, then I run, then I bike. Կը քալեմ, կը վազեմ, եւ յետոյ հեծանիւ կը նստիմ:

 

2) "I am walking" (continuous present tense) --> "Ես կը քալեմկոր" "Yes gu kalemgor"

Example usage with context: "I am walking to my car" (Not "I walk to my car"). --> "Ես դեպի ինքնաշարժս կը քալեմկոր:" (Not "Ես դեպի ինքնաշարժս կը քալեմ:")

 

Therefore, by leaving out the "-gor" suffix in writing, you actually LOSE information communicated in speech. I argue that not writing "-gor" is a ridiculous and artificial rule imposed by someone that's caught on. And my logic is self-contained above.

If a suffix is needed for present continuous (which I think I've shown above), then why should I and other Western Armenians use the "k@" suffix when we already use "kor"/gor/կոր for this purpose? His claim that կոր is Turkish is unproven and has been debunked by Vahan79 above.

LOL, Շահան, երբ ես «Տղու Հոգի» կարդացի, տեսայ, որ «կոր»ը այսպէս կը գործածուի՝ «Ես կ'ընեմ կոր», ո՛չ «Ես կ'ընեմկոր»...

[nairi]

I don't think you understand my point:

 

There is NO other way to express/communicate a present continuous tense in Western Armenian without using the "???" suffix. I will give some examples:

 

Why are you so hung up on the continuous tense anyway? Did Grabar have a continuous tense that was different in form from the simple tense? How come EA can express both simple and continuous with one form (yes qaylum em), but WA needs two forms (k@ qaylem and k@ qaylemkor)? I also question to what degree "kor" should be viewed as a suffix. Would that not make it a double suffix -em and -kor = -emkor?

 

Why should I and other Western Armenians use the "k@" suffix when we already use "kor"/gor/????

 

You can always use the simpler alternative and simply say: "k@ qaylem" for both the continuous tense and the simple tense.

 

His claim that ??? is Turkish is unproven and has been debunked by Vahan79 above.

 

Is Vahan the same guy who couldn't tell the difference between "im" and "indz"?

[Էլիա]

Արփա, ես չըսի, որ դուն ըսիր, որ «կոր»ը թուրքերէն է, բայց դուն ըսի՛ր, որ «կոր»ը թուրքերէնի հետ կապուած է, բայց Վահանը ստուգեց, որ անիկա սխալ է:

[Shahan Araradian]

All I say is. GOR is so vulgar and ugly sounding խժալուր that I will not miss it if I never heard it sgain. Send it back to the sewers of Istanbul. Give us back our noble "k@.

Good. Now that we've established that it's your personal OPINION that you don't like the sound of "-gor" we're making progress.

 

You're entitled to an opinion. There are over 6 billion opinions.

 

I personally don't like the sound of ejectives in Eastern Armenian. But what can I do? The dialect is what it is.

 

We are creatures of habit. It's extremely likely that if if I spoke Eastern Armenian natively, then I would find ejectives beautiful or at least not have any particular problem with them.

 

Similarly, you shouldn't be surprised to find that Western Armenians like "-gor" or find that "-gor" is quite normal in speech.

 

Would you like it if I said that the vulgar sounding ejectives of Eastern Armenian should be sent back to the sewers of Tiflis where they came from (where they were borrowed into the Eastern Armenian dialect)? I don't think so.

 

Again, Golden Rule.

Edited May 26, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[Gor-Gor]

Maybe "կը գրեմ կը" evolved into "կը գրեմ կոր" because the former sounds ridiculous and is confusing. The latter makes a clear distinction between the present and present-continuous tenses, whereas the former seems sloppy.

[AK-47]

Կը յիշեմ երբ շարադրութիւն կ՛ընէինք դասարանը միշտ հարց կ՛ունենայի with the "-gor". One of the միջոց I would use was to say «Երբ կը քալէի» or just use «ես կը քալէի»: I agree with Shahan, this anti-gor rule is ridiculous. Man I gotta find my old Armenian teacher and ask him these questions...

 

Btw ամոթ է որ իրարու հայհոյանքներ կը նետէնք ԿՈՐ ասանկ, թուրքը որ կը կարդայ ինչ որ լատիներէն տարերով գրուէր է must be laughing his ass off at how «իրարու միսը կ՛ուտենք ԿՈՐ»... լոլ: Ուրեմն բորցենք աւելի գիչ հայհոյանքներ գործածել, գոնէ հայերէնով գրենք since this entire discussion is about Armenian anyway.

[Arpa]

Արփա, ես չըսի, որ դուն ըսիր, որ «կոր»ը թուրքերէն է, բայց դուն ըսի՛ր, որ «կոր»ը թուրքերէնի հետ կապուած է, բայց Վահանը ստուգեց, որ անիկա սխալ է:

Այո անշուշտ: Քանի Վահանը թուրքագիտութեան եւ հայագիտութեան կաճառների նախագահն է:

[Էլիա]

Maybe "կը գրեմ կը" evolved into "կը գրեմ կոր" because the former sounds ridiculous and is confusing. The latter makes a clear distinction between the present and present-continuous tenses, whereas the former seems sloppy.

Ես կը համաձայնիմ, որ «կը գրեմ կը»ն շիտակ ձայն չ'ունի եւ կրնայ շփոթութիւն ստեղծել:

 

[Էլիա]

Այո անշուշտ: Քանի Վահանը թուրքագիտութեան եւ հայագիտութեան կաճառների նախագահն է:

Արփա, Վահանը նախագահ չէ, բայց ըսել չէ, որ ան սխալ է:

 

[Shahan Araradian]

Why are you so hung up on the continuous tense anyway?

If we can express something in another language, why not be able to express it in Armenian in our speech AND in our writing?

 

In English we can differentiate between "He walks" and "He is walking" why shouldn't we be able to do the same in Armenian?

 

Did Grabar have a continuous tense that was different in form from the simple tense?

Don't know.

 

How come EA can express both simple and continuous with one form (yes qaylum em), but WA needs two forms (k@ qaylem and k@ qaylemkor)?

There's a loss of information in EA: you can't differentiate continuous and simple as you can in English. Western Armenian uses "-gor" to make this differentiation.

 

I also question to what degree "kor" should be viewed as a suffix. Would that not make it a double suffix -em and -kor = -emkor?

No, you don't say "-emkor" in Western Armenian. That would happen in Eastern Armenian if you would use it that way; but "-gor" isn't used in Eastern Armenian. (Although people from Gyumri do sort of use a double suffix like you're saying "Ես կ'երդամկը" "Ես or կ'երդամ կը" (not sure how it's written))

 

"I am walking"

"Ես կը քալեմկոր"

 

You can always use the simpler alternative and simply say: "k@ qaylem" for both the continuous tense and the simple tense.

I would like to differentiate the two as I do in spoken Western Armenian, and as I can in spoken and written English.

 

Is Vahan the same guy who couldn't tell the difference between "im" and "indz"?

That's not a valid argument. No one is flawless. Based on his detailed examples, he seemed to have a better understanding of the Turkish language than any of us.

Edited May 26, 2007 by Shahan Araradian