Eastern Armenian-western Armenian

[Gor-Gor]

I realize that you were right how?

Is it because you pronounce the name of that entryway ԴՈՒՌ the same as the English “door” as “tour/թուր” which means chisel. You’re not alone. Even one of literary gods Petros Dourian did not know the difference when he petrified their surname from Zmbajian(chisel maker) to Dourian which should have been Tourian/Թուրեանղ And when our supreme god of WA literature Daniel (not Taniel please) totally shed his Turkish surname of Chboukiarian(pipe maker) to Varuzhan, just like Atom Yarjanian adopted Siamanto as his penname.. It has been over a hundred years since and we are still struggling with, can’t rid ourselves from that damn “turkahayeren”. Let me ask one more time. When is the last time you saw Varuzhan, Siamanto or Tourian use “gor”?

Ինչ կ’ըսես կոր ծո, լան ակա!!

 

Blah blah blah.

 

Go back a few pages either in this thread or the other one and re-read your garbage about Bedros Tourian and "chisel."

 

(BTW, yeah, and ignore the rest of my post. Typical.)

[Shahan Araradian]

I realize that you were right how?

Is it because you pronounce the name of that entryway ԴՈՒՌ the same as the English “door” as “tour/թուր” which means chisel. You’re not alone. Even one of literary gods Petros Dourian did not know the difference when he petrified their surname from Zmbajian(chisel maker) to Dourian which should have been Tourian/Թուրեանղ And when our supreme god of WA literature Daniel (not Taniel please) totally shed his Turkish surname of Chboukiarian(pipe maker) to Varuzhan, just like Atom Yarjanian adopted Siamanto as his penname.. It has been over a hundred years since and we are still struggling with, can’t rid ourselves from that damn “turkahayeren”. Let me ask one more time. When is the last time you saw Varuzhan, Siamanto or Tourian use “gor”?

Ինչ կ’ըսես կոր ծո, լան ակա!!

Arpa, I have a challenge for you. If you can meaningfully answer the following question, then I'll retract my claim that you are an imbecile :

 

"Can you tell us how to say "I am walking" (present continuous) in Western Armenian WITHOUT USING the -GOR suffix?"

 

Until you can answer the above, you are an imbecile in my book who throws things out, shit-disturbs for the fun of it and to get kicks, and really has nothing meaningful to contribute when it comes to the phonology of the Armenian language, nor to the morphology of Western Armenian.

 

I claim that there is NO OTHER WAY of expressing the present continuous tense in Western Armenian other than the use of the "-gor" suffix, and there is NOTHING WRONG WITH USING IT. It doesn't matter if Siamanto or anyone in 1900 used it in writing. It is DE FACTO used today, and it actually serves a useful purposes.

 

HUMAN LANGUAGES EVOLVE or they DIE. Western Armenian has chosen to EVOLVE in order to LIVE. The use of "-gor" is part of that evolution.

Edited May 24, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[AK-47]

Ինչ կ’ըսես կոր ծո, լան ակա!!

This expression is street slang and is used as a joke. No one uses these words inside Armenian schools, in literature etc. And why are you making fun like this? Doesn't the Eastern Armenian language abuse Russian words like "davay" too? Or those weird Rabizoid terms the "Rabiz sub-culture" invents

[Dave]

Bullcrap, Լիբանան եղեր եմ եւ նաեւ ընտանիքս Պուրճ Համուտէն է եւ բնաւ այնպիսի բան նկատի չէմ արած: Of course there will be a mix of "odar" words into the Armenian, this is inevitable as we diasporans do not live in Armenia but in "host" countries. Lebanon has been the heart of the Armenian diaspora for decades. I have met plenty of people from Lebanon and the majority can read and write Armenian. There are tons of Armenian schools in Lebanon. If no one is sending their children there anymore, I wonder how these schools are remaining open. People, including my parents, who immigrated from Lebanon often find themselves sending their children to Armenian schools in such places as the USA and Canada. Lebanon permitted people to preserve their Armenianness and this criticism is ridiculous. The Armenians in Lebanon have preserved their Armenianness better than other diasporans I find.

 

Yeah I agree. ALL of my cousins who live in Lebanon go to Armenian schools, except one. That one has graduated.

[Էլիա]

I realize that you were right how?

Is it because you pronounce the name of that entryway ԴՈՒՌ the same as the English “door” as “tour/թուր” which means chisel. You’re not alone. Even one of literary gods Petros Dourian did not know the difference when he petrified their surname from Zmbajian(chisel maker) to Dourian which should have been Tourian/Թուրեանղ And when our supreme god of WA literature Daniel (not Taniel please) totally shed his Turkish surname of Chboukiarian(pipe maker) to Varuzhan, just like Atom Yarjanian adopted Siamanto as his penname.. It has been over a hundred years since and we are still struggling with, can’t rid ourselves from that damn “turkahayeren”. Let me ask one more time. When is the last time you saw Varuzhan, Siamanto or Tourian use “gor”?

Ինչ կ’ըսես կոր ծո, լան ակա!!

Դուն հիմա՞ր ես կամ ի՞նչ: «Կոր»ը (եւ ասիկա շա՜տ անգամ բացատրուած է) երբեմն խօսուած արեւմտեան հայերէնի մէջ կ'ըլլայ, ո՛չ բնօրինակ գրուած արեւմտեան հայերէնի մէջ: Եւ ամէն մարդ (օրինակի համար՝ ես) «կոր»ը կամ «լան»ը չի գործածեր: Միայն անմիտ մարդ մը կը կարծէ, որ բոլոր հայերը օտար բառեր կը գործածեն, երբ հայերէն կը խօսին:

Edited May 24, 2007 by Էլիա

[Zartonk]

Քաք շպրտել և ուրիշ ոչինչ:

[Arpa]

Arpa, I have a challenge for you. If you can meaningfully answer the following question, then I'll retract my claim that you are an imbecile :

 

"Can you tell us how to say "I am walking" (present continuous) in Western Armenian WITHOUT USING the -GOR suffix?"

 

Until you can answer the above, you are an imbecile in my book who throws things out, shit-disturbs for the fun of it and to get kicks, and really has nothing meaningful to contribute when it comes to the phonology of the Armenian language, nor to the morphology of Western Armenian.

 

I claim that there is NO OTHER WAY of expressing the present continuous tense in Western Armenian other than the use of the "-gor" suffix, and there is NOTHING WRONG WITH USING IT. It doesn't matter if Siamanto or anyone in 1900 used it in writing. It is DE FACTO used today, and it actually serves a useful purposes.

 

HUMAN LANGUAGES EVOLVE or they DIE. Western Armenian has chosen to EVOLVE in order to LIVE. The use of "-gor" is part of that evolution.

Did you read that Hamshen dialect wher the K@ is placed after the verb? Have you heard Sebastatsis speak when they say "կը գրեմ կը" which is the present continuous tense. That K@ turned to "gor" in Istanbul to rhyme with the Turkish "yor" as in geliyor, gediyor.

Learn Armenian, not just turkarmenian, Oh how I hate that term, what an oxymoron. Speaking of morons!

Methinks it is time to exit this thread when it has stooped so low as to using words like imbecile, moron and idiot. It only shows the linguistic inadequacy of our correspondents when they have to resort to name calling and using foul language when they cannot prove their pont in a civilized manner.

Edited May 24, 2007 by Arpa

[Armenak]

Did you read that Hamshen dialect wher the K@ is placed after the verb? Have you heard Sebastatsis speak when they say "կը գրեմ կը" which is the present continuous tense.

It is used in some Eastern Armenian dialects as well. I think the Gyumri dialect uses it. Can anyone confirm? anoushik? Harut...?

[Shahan Araradian]

Did you read that Hamshen dialect wher the K@ is placed after the verb? Have you heard Sebastatsis speak when they say "կը գրեմ կը" which is the present continuous tense. That K@ turned to "gor" in Istanbul to rhyme with the Turkish "yor" as in geliyor, gediyor.

Is this ORIGINAL research by you? If not, then please cite a reliable source: book, author, page number. Otherwise, it's a meaningless theory.

 

Now, I ask the obvious question: what is so wrong with Armenian borrowing from Turkish? It has borrowed from Persian, Greek, and Latin. What is the sensitivity with Turkish? It's just another language that the Armenian population has been in contact with. Mind you word borrowing is bi-directional.

 

Learn Armenian, not just turkarmenian, Oh how I hate that term, what an oxymoron. Speaking of morons!

Yet another insult, and combined with the fact that you weren't able to answer the question and indeed have re-affirmed that "-gor" actually is REQUIRED in Western Armenian and you can't convey a present continuous verb any way else, I stand by my claim regarding your character.

Edited May 24, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[Shahan Araradian]

It is used in some Eastern Armenian dialects as well. I think the Gyumri dialect uses it. Can anyone confirm? anoushik? Harut...?

I sort of can confirm. I have a friend from Gyumri who also uses it: «Ի՞նչ կ'ընեսկը»

[Shahan Araradian]

[d] Edited May 24, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[Shahan Araradian]

I sort of can confirm. I have a friend from Gyumri who also uses it: «Ի՞նչ կ'ընեսկը» (Instead of «Ի՞նչ ես անում).

 

Would an Eastern Armenian like it if a Western Armenian were to criticize the use of "-ում" as a present continuous suffix in Eastern Armenian? I don't think so.

 

Then how an Eastern Armenian criticize the use of "-կոր" as a suffix for present continuous verbs in Western Armenian?

 

Golden Rule.

 

They're just suffixes... A bunch of letters forming a phoneme... GOR or OOM. Can we criticize them? NO! They're just what they are! They're how they've evolved. They're both beautiful in their own ways. They're BOTH creations of Humans.

Edited May 24, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[nairi]

"Can you tell us how to say "I am walking" (present continuous) in Western Armenian WITHOUT USING the -GOR suffix?"

 

In EA: "Yes hima man em galis."

 

EA requires an adverbial like "now" or "at the moment," like many other languages that do not have a specific tense for the present continuous. In other words, there is no need for "gor" in EA, and that's also why I don't see the need for it in WA either.

[Eurocentric]

Now, I ask the obvious question: what is so wrong with Armenian borrowing from Turkish? It has borrowed from Persian, Greek, and Latin. What is the sensitivity with Turkish? It's just another language that the Armenian population has been in contact with. Mind you word borrowing is bi-directional.

 

Everything is wrong. Nothing is wrong with borrowing from Persian, Greek, Latin or Russian for that matter. Turkish is an alien Altaic language. The others are closely related IE languages. One is evolution, the former is degeneration. Nevermind the cultural and historical aspects...Shame. Same goes for the filthy animalistic Arabic.

[Eurocentric]

This expression is street slang and is used as a joke. No one uses these words inside Armenian schools, in literature etc. And why are you making fun like this? Doesn't the Eastern Armenian language abuse Russian words like "davay" too? Or those weird Rabizoid terms the "Rabiz sub-culture" invents

 

Right, but rabizoid slang is used by the rabiz alone. The former is used practically by all akhpars. That is those that actually prefer speaking Armenian and not Arabic.

 

Hayde lan peroujan...kaken khntaliq par eh...

What's the etymology of peroujan btw?

[vahan79]

Mr. self acclaimed grammarian and linguist, you should know by now that western armenian grammar is defective and there is no difference between the simple present tense and present continuous tense. There is also no «կրաւորական» in western armenian.

vartahoor

 

Someone explain a couple of things to me:

 

(1) Is it me or does Vartahoor write in a mix of WA and EA? I mean, I understand what you are saying, but there is something off about it.

 

(2) I don't get the contraversy over "gor." We all know it isn't considered "proper" WA, but that everyone uses it in speech. That doesn't make it wrong. There are rules in language that we observe, but we can't impose rules where the language is naturally opposing them. "Gor" to me is completely acceptable in speaking. I don't get what Vartahoor is saying because there is no difference between continuous present tense and present tense in EA either!

 

I am walking (right now) = Yes kayloum em (hima).

I walk to school every day = Yes kayloume em deprotsin amen or.

He is walking to me = Im (or Indz) mot e kayloum.

He walks to me and I say hello to him = Im (or Indz) mot e kayloum yev yes nran barevoum em.

 

(3) You (Arpa) can't blame "gor" on Turks either, because there is nothing like "gor" in Turkish. Like Armenian (sans gor), Turkish only has one present tense.

 

[Eurocentric]

Someone explain a couple of things to me:

 

(1) Is it me or does Vartahoor write in a mix of WA and EA? I mean, I understand what you are saying, but there is something off about it.

 

He's using the defunct archaic orthography.

 

[Johannes]

Հայաստանեան կայքերում էսպէս դիմում են. «ժող ջան»

Ուրեմն Ժող (ժողովուրդ) ջան,

Արեւելահայերէնում -ես կը քայլեմ (ընդհանրապէս) ներկայ ժամանակ

Կամ՝«ես քայլում եմ» ներկայ շարունակական ժամանակ:

Ուտում եմ-Կուտեմ

Սիրում եմ-Կը սիրեմ

Այո Արեւելահայերէը ունի կը սիրեմ, կուտեմ, կը հազամ, կը ցաւիմ , Կը ԿըԿըԿըԿը

Բայց այս պարագան չշփոթել գիւմրեցոց կամ ջաւախեցոց «կերթամ կը» ձեւի հետ, որ ներկայ շարունակական ժամանակ է present continious tens եւ արեւմտահայ բարբառ:

Դուք բոլորդ պատուի խնդրի վերածեր էք. պարագաներ որ այնպէս չեն, ինչպէս կը կարծէք:

Յարգանօք

Edited May 24, 2007 by Johannes

[Arpa]

Someone explain a couple of things to me:

(3) You (Arpa) can't blame "gor" on Turks either, because there is nothing like "gor" in Turkish. Like Armenian (sans gor), Turkish only has one present tense.

Damn it! Can you read? Never mind Armenian or English. Can you read?

Do you see where "gor" comes from?

It is the "k@/կը" placed after the verb, as in "կը գրեմ կը" that was turkified to " կը գրեմ կոր"/gor" to rhyme wirh that f language of "geliyor/gediyor/gor".

If you are so deaf and blind to see and hear, then I'd better shut up. And I will.

Why can't our so called Western Armenian brothres and sisters get out of the sewers of Istanbul and search for their roots in places like Sebastia, Kharberd, Moush, Sasun and yerevan?!!!

Edited May 24, 2007 by Arpa

[Johannes]

Այո Սիրելի Արփա,

Մենք այսքան գլխացաւ, վէճ եւ բանք չէինք ունենար, եթէ գրաբարէն չի հրաժարէինք, Մեսրոպեան ուղղագրումէն, Մեսրոպեան արտասանումէն չի հրաժարէինք:

Այս ամէն ներկայի եւ ապագայի գլխացաւի պատճառը անոնք են, ովք լեզուն հեշտացնելու, ժողովուրդին մօտեցնելու համար առաջարկելով գործադրած են. իրենց տան բարբառի գրականացումը:Բաժանէ, որ տիրես քաղաքականութիւնը հայի օրհնանքով, միջոցով եւ մշակութային իմաստով գործադրուեցաւ, այստեղ (Պոլիս) եւ այնտեղ (Թիֆլիս):

Յարգանօք

Edited May 24, 2007 by Johannes

[vahan79]

Damn it! Can you read? Never mind Armenian or English. Can you read?

Do you see where "gor" comes from?

It is the "k@/կը" placed after the verb, as in "կը գրեմ կը" that was turkified to " կը գրեմ կոր"/gor" to rhyme wirh that f language of "geliyor/gediyor/gor".

If you are so deaf and blind to see and hear, then I'd better shut up. And I will.

Why can't our so called Western Armenian brothres and sisters get out of the sewers of Istanbul and search for their roots in places like Sebastia, Kharberd, Moush, Sasun and yerevan?!!!

 

I hadn't read your post at that point and I planned to amend, but too late. Deafness has nothing to do with it, so let's not be silly.

 

In any event, I don't agree that that is necessarily the truth. It is an interesting guess, but I am not sure that that even makes sense:

 

(1) Turkish doesn't use "yor" to mean present continuous, it is used for both regular present and present continuous (as we have said many languages including written WA and written/spoken EA). So, I cna't be convinced that it has to be from that.\

 

(2) When you say "geliyor" and "gediyor" (you mean "gidiyor", I guess, unless you are speaking Azeri), that doesn't really help either because that is only THIRD PERSON SINGULAR. Why would "guh krem guh" change to "guh krem gor" for turkish when the same phrase in Turkish would be "yaziyorum" (I am writing OR I write). Not only is the "yor" embedded in the word, it doesn't really follow why Armenian would extract that root from the center and add it to the end of Armenian words to make it sound the same, even when it doesn't sound even remotely similar.

 

Ben yaziyorum = Yes guh grem (why add gor? how would it sound more like Turkish)

 

In other words, IT DOESN'T RHYME like you are saying it does!!!

 

(3) Even if it is Turkish, who cares?!?! That other dude's argument about Turkish is from different roots than Armenian, unlike Persian, Latin, Russian, etc. That is just stupid. What about Arabic, you forgot Arabic. Is that because you'd have to admit that Arabic is a SEMITIC language, not even Indo-European...???

 

[vahan79]

He's using the defunct archaic orthography.

 

Thanks!

 

Hmm, I figured, but who does that? (and I am not sure it's all correct) It's weird, especially when no matter how you frame it, he is still using EA, which has been grammatically affected by Russian standardization processes. It wasn't just the spelling my friends!

[Eurocentric]

Even if it is Turkish, who cares?!?! That other dude's argument about Turkish is from different roots than Armenian, unlike Persian, Latin, Russian, etc. That is just stupid. What about Arabic, you forgot Arabic. Is that because you'd have to admit that Arabic is a SEMITIC language, not even Indo-European...???

 

It sounds stupid too you because you don't see Turks or Arabs and their cultures or lack thereof as foreign and alien. They are your kin, so why should their linguistic influences bother you?

[Eurocentric]

It is.

 

...which has been grammatically affected by Russian standardization processes.

 

Thank God for that!

 

[Gor-Gor]

Thanks!

 

Hmm, I figured, but who does that? (and I am not sure it's all correct) It's weird, especially when no matter how you frame it, he is still using EA, which has been grammatically affected by Russian standardization processes. It wasn't just the spelling my friends!

 

I'm not sure what you mean. Vartahoor, I believe, is Barsgahay, and therefore his mother dialect is Eastern Armenian. However, like all Barsgahays, he uses the original orthography. Barsgahays and Western Armenians use all the same spelling rules, with the exception of "ու" and "ւ." For instance, Barsgahays would spell the word գտնուիլ as գտնւիլ. I'm not 100% sure about this, but I believe I'm right. Anyway, I'm going off on a tangent...

 

Vartahoor sometimes also spells according to the abomination that is Soviet orthography. I'm not sure why he does so.