Eastern Armenian-western Armenian

[Arpa]

It is because of PEOPLE LIKE YOU that there is sometimes a "vs." between Eastern Armenian and Western Armenian.

 

Shame on you.

Is it me?

Has anyone else noticed that this debate does not even belong in the category of “language”?

Of course. By now it should be obvious that I am a blithering idiot and I “don’t understand”.

So far none of the participants have shown us how the two differ with examples.

Very little has been said about language except to see how many insults we can think of.

Would it not be more apt to move this thread to “politics”, or better yet to “tribalism”?

Speaking of EA v WA, each of them have cliches about the subject at hand.

 

“Բողկի համ է տալիս” -VS- “Դդումի համ կ’ուտայ”

 

:goof:

Can someone please tell us the difference between

Ես իմ անուշ Հայաստանի արեւահամ բարն եմ սիրում

And

Ես իմ անուշ Հայաստանի արեւահամ բարը (կը) սիրեմ

 

Edited May 16, 2007 by Arpa

[Eurocentric]

Ներողութիւն Իւրոսէնթռըք, բայց արեւմտեան հայերէնը պիտի չջնջուի, եթէ կը սիրես կամ ոչ, որովհետեւ մենք անպայման պէտք չունինք Հայաստան վերադառնալ, շատ արեւմտեան հայերէն դպրոցներ ունինք աշխարհին մէջ, եւ մեր բարբառը կ'անցնի սերունդէ սերունդ: Դուն կը կարծես, հպարտութեանդ պատճառով, որ արեւմտեան հայերէնը կը կորսուի, բայց իրականութիւնն է, որ չի տարբերիր ի՛նչ քան կը փորձես ջնջել՝ մեր բարբառը միշտ պիտի մնայ մեր միտքերուն մէջ: Աւելին, արեւմտեան հայերէնը բարբառն է, որ մօտաւորապէս ջնջուեցաւ՝ թուրքերուն պատճառով, բայց զօրութեամբ եւ քաջութեամբ պահեցինք: Հաճիս մի՛ ըսէր, որ կ'ուզես մեր ազատուած եւ փրկուած լեզուն հեռանայ:

 

Ներված էս Էլիա, շատ մի հուսահատվիր: Փոթորիկի դիմաց չես: Թող չջնջվի, ես չեմ ասում ջնջվի: Ուզում ե՞ք, զարմացեք: Ես միայն ցավալի փաստն եմ հայտնում: Դպրոցները չեղածից լավ են բայց սերունդից սերունդ ձեր օտար «գնչուական» հասարակություններում և գաղութներում ձեր բարբարը միայն աղավաղվում է գնալով: Նորից եմ ասում որ հազարից մեկ ա մարդ պատահում որ նորմալ և սիրուն արևմտահայերեն է խոսում:

[Eurocentric]

Is it me?

Has anyone else noticed that this debate does not even belong in the category of “language”?

Of course. By now it should be obvious that I am a blithering idiot and I “don’t understand”.

So far none of the participants have shown us how the two differ with examples.

Very little has been said about language except to see how many insults we can think of.

Would it not be more apt to move this thread to “politics”, or better yet to “tribalism”?

Speaking of EA v WA, each of them have cliches about the subject at hand.

 

“Բողկի համ է տալիս” -VS- “Դդումի համ կ’ուտայ”

 

:goof:

Can someone please tell us the difference between

Ես իմ անուշ Հայաստանի արեւահամ բարն եմ սիրում

And

Ես իմ անուշ Հայաստանի արեւահամ բարը (կը) սիրեմ

 

The differences never bothers us. I can "speak" WA fluently and nobody would ever guess that i'm not a native speaker. WA speakers can't speak EA without actually learning it for a while. It's the same language but ask yourself why do EA speakers have no trouible with WA but WA speakers often act as if EA is like a different language? It's them that usually make a big fuss about insignificant differences. The only thing that somewhat bothers me is hearing "parev" instead of "barev" or "gedron" instead of "kentron" etc. Nevermind the senistivities of others, to me it just sounds like someone is making fun of my language but again it's not a big deal. When WA is spoken graget-ly the differences are even less. No gor gors and all that .

[Zartonk]

Is it me?

Has anyone else noticed that this debate does not even belong in the category of “language”?

Of course. By now it should be obvious that I am a blithering idiot and I “don’t understand”.

So far none of the participants have shown us how the two differ with examples.

Very little has been said about language except to see how many insults we can think of.

Would it not be more apt to move this thread to “politics”, or better yet to “tribalism”?

Speaking of EA v WA, each of them have cliches about the subject at hand.

 

“Բողկի համ է տալիս” -VS- “Դդումի համ կ’ուտայ”

 

goof.gif goof.gif goof.gif

Can someone please tell us the difference between

Ես իմ անուշ Հայաստանի արեւահամ բարն եմ սիրում

And

Ես իմ անուշ Հայաստանի արեւահամ բարը (կը) սիրեմ

 

Tribalism It sounds like we're from different clans. When it first started, I never thought that a topic as purposeless as this would gain so much ground for so long. It is pathetic.

[Arpa]

Tribalism It sounds like we're from different clans. When it first started, I never thought that a topic as purposeless as this would gain so much ground for so long. It is pathetic.

So! Which is the “real McCoy“?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Real_McCoy

"The real McCoy" is an idiom used throughout much of the English-speaking world to mean "the real thing" or "the genuine article" e.g. "he's the real McCoy". Its origins, though generally thought to be nineteenth or early twentieth century, are somewhat obscure.

In non English-speaking parts of the world, this idiom is frequently spelled "The real MacCoy".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatfield-McCoy_feud

The Hatfield-McCoy feud (1878–1891) is an account of American lore that has become a metaphor for bitterly feuding rival parties in general. It has been described as an Appalachian Capulet-Montague rivalry[1] involving two warring families of the West Virginia-Kentucky backcountry along the Tug Fork River, off the Big Sandy River.

 

The McCoys and the Hatfields have been shooting each other for centuries while in the meantime the country is being taken over by the McMahmoods and the McHameeds.

Let’s continue this masturbatory, basturmatory debate and see who will end up owning EA and WA.

Will it be the Abdul-etsis or the Aliyevich-es.

 

[Էլիա]

Let’s continue this masturbatory, basturmatory debate and see who will end up owning EA and WA.

Will it be the Abdul-etsis or the Aliyevich-es.

I'm not trying to countinue any debate between EA and WA. I'm just trying to prove to you that WA is equal (no, not greater than, equal to) EA and vice-versa! If you (and the other people) accept this fact, then we wouldn't be having any debate about this, at all.

 

[Eurocentric]

 

 

The McCoys and the Hatfields have been shooting each other for centuries while in the meantime the country is being taken over by the McMahmoods and the McHameeds.

Let’s continue this masturbatory, basturmatory debate and see who will end up owning EA and WA.

Will it be the Abdul-etsis or the Aliyevich-es.

 

That's true. Towelheads from the shithole that's called the middle east and iran are buying property all over and not just in Yerevan. It's a myth that it's only students...

[Arpa]

I'm not trying to countinue any debate between EA and WA. I'm just trying to prove to you that WA is equal (no, not greater than, equal to) EA and vice-versa! If you (and the other people) accept this fact, then we wouldn't be having any debate about this, at all.

Slowly but surely you are getting the idea.

You may have noticed that none of our Yerevantsi, Gumretisi or Loretsi. or our brothers from Stepanakert or Stepanavan have participated in this debate, except that, our Javakhetsi brother SAS, who has, at numerous times expressed his deep admiration at the likes of Varuzhan and Siamanto.

You will see that neither Charents or Sevak have attacked the so called WA, nor any self respecting editor of Zartonk, AZG or Azdak.

Where is the problem? Except maybe by those whose knowledge of the Armenian Language is limited to that of Bourj Hammoud or Beluchistan.

Is it because one says "Գրում եմ " and the other " (կը)գրեմ կը".?

Let's find another way to divide the nation. How about, Gavaretsi and Aparantsi, Apostolic, Catholic or Protestant? Did I hit another senstive nerve?

ZZZZZZZZZ

Wake me up when both the Bourj Hammoudtsis and Yerevantsis stop using such terms as "dolma, sarma and basturma".

ZZZZZZZZZ

Edited May 16, 2007 by Arpa

[ED]

I just have two questions regarding this Topic,

if I may say

 

why is the topic title Eastern Armenian Vs Western Armenian?

it should be Eastern Armenian and Western Armenian perhaps?!

[Էլիա]

Slowly but surely you are getting the idea.

You may have noticed that none of our Yerevantsi, Gumretisi or Loretsi. or our brothers from Stepanakert or Stepanavan have participated in this debate, except that, our Javakhetsi brother SAS, who has, at numerous times expressed his deep admiration at the likes of Varuzhan and Siamanto.

You will see that neither Charents or Sevak have attacked the so called WA, nor any self respecting editor of Zartonk, AZG or Azdak.

Where is the problem? Except maybe by those whose knowledge of the Armenian Language is limited to that of Bourj Hammoud or Beluchistan.

Is it because one says "Գրում եմ " and the other " (կը)գրեմ կը".?

Let's find another way to divide the nation. How about, Gavaretsi and Aparantsi, Apostolic, Catholic or Protestant? Did I hit another senstive nerve?

ZZZZZZZZZ

Wake me up when both the Bourj Hammoudtsis and Yerevantsis stop using such terms as "dolma, sarma and basturma".

ZZZZZZZZZ

Arpa, are you kidding me? You have put down WA so many times in the past. For example, your most recent insult was calling it "Turkahayeren" and telling us to forget about it... This is what I'm talking about.

I just have two questions regarding this Topic,

if I may say

 

why is the topic title Eastern Armenian Vs Western Armenian?

it should be Eastern Armenian and Western Armenian perhaps?!

Well, it wasn't really meant to be that title... and yes, it should have been Eastern Armenian and Western Armenian.

 

[ED]

in India where is 50 plus dilicts of Hindu and a country of 1 billion never failled to divide along the line of the dialect they spoke

 

my son attanded to rose and alex pilipos school here in LA, one day i gave a novel by Samvel Pterosian "INDZ BAH TVEQ" basicaly the life of GEVORK CHAUSH and the history teacher (armenian history) gave it right back to me saying "chem krnal asiga gartal" inchu? i said "jghayn kllam ad arevela-hayerenen" asats

 

i dont think i should comment further

 

[Gor-Gor]

Is it me?

Has anyone else noticed that this debate does not even belong in the category of “language”?

Of course. By now it should be obvious that I am a blithering idiot and I “don’t understand”.

So far none of the participants have shown us how the two differ with examples.

Very little has been said about language except to see how many insults we can think of.

Would it not be more apt to move this thread to “politics”, or better yet to “tribalism”?

Speaking of EA v WA, each of them have cliches about the subject at hand.

 

“Բողկի համ է տալիս” -VS- “Դդումի համ կ’ուտայ”

 

:goof:

Can someone please tell us the difference between

Ես իմ անուշ Հայաստանի արեւահամ բարն եմ սիրում

And

Ես իմ անուշ Հայաստանի արեւահամ բարը (կը) սիրեմ

 

Once again, you respond to my posts without actually responding. You just love to shit-stir. This post wasn't even directed to you.

 

And it's spelled կու տայ not կ’ուտայ.

 

Next.

[Gor-Gor]

Ներված էս Էլիա, շատ մի հուսահատվիր: Փոթորիկի դիմաց չես: Թող չջնջվի, ես չեմ ասում ջնջվի: Ուզում ե՞ք, զարմացեք: Ես միայն ցավալի փաստն եմ հայտնում: Դպրոցները չեղածից լավ են բայց սերունդից սերունդ ձեր օտար «գնչուական» հասարակություններում և գաղութներում ձեր բարբարը միայն աղավաղվում է գնալով: Նորից եմ ասում որ հազարից մեկ ա մարդ պատահում որ նորմալ և սիրուն արևմտահայերեն է խոսում:

 

Just what do you mean by "normal" -- I'd love to know.

 

Rest assured, I speak Western Armenian with ease and with a degree of sophistication you probably would not expect.

 

Next.

[Gor-Gor]

The differences never bothers us. I can "speak" WA fluently and nobody would ever guess that i'm not a native speaker. WA speakers can't speak EA without actually learning it for a while. It's the same language but ask yourself why do EA speakers have no trouible with WA but WA speakers often act as if EA is like a different language? It's them that usually make a big fuss about insignificant differences. The only thing that somewhat bothers me is hearing "parev" instead of "barev" or "gedron" instead of "kentron" etc. Nevermind the senistivities of others, to me it just sounds like someone is making fun of my language but again it's not a big deal. When WA is spoken graget-ly the differences are even less. No gor gors and all that .

 

Do you, and others on here, not realize that it is precisely because of statements and sentiments like the ones I have highlighted that there is a rift between the two dialects? Making fun?! Excuse me?! OF YOUR LANGUAGE?! That is some nerve you have.

 

I love that you qualified your statement with "but again it's not a big deal." If it weren't, you shouldn't have brought it up.

 

Onto your other comments -- "Gor" is an integral part of spoken Western Armenian. Just like the verb "a" in spoken Eastern Armenian. To my ears, and to the ears of all Western Armenians, "a" not only sounds incorrect, but also makes the listener think that the speaker is (for lack of a better term, and for purposes of illustrating my point) a "kyughatsi." Excuse me, maybe I should have typed "gyughatsi" so as not to make fun of your language.

Edited May 16, 2007 by Gor-Gor

[Gor-Gor]

in India where is 50 plus dilicts of Hindu and a country of 1 billion never failled to divide along the line of the dialect they spoke

 

my son attanded to rose and alex pilipos school here in LA, one day i gave a novel by Samvel Pterosian "INDZ BAH TVEQ" basicaly the life of GEVORK CHAUSH and the history teacher (armenian history) gave it right back to me saying "chem krnal asiga gartal" inchu? i said "jghayn kllam ad arevela-hayerenen" asats

 

i dont think i should comment further

 

Unless she was referring to the orthography (assuming the book was published using Soviet orthorgaphy), that is unacceptable, and she should not be teaching Armenian.

 

Both Eastern and Western Armenian literature are required portions of the curriculum at all Prelacy schools, Pilibos included.

[Gor-Gor]

Slowly but surely you are getting the idea.

You may have noticed that none of our Yerevantsi, Gumretisi or Loretsi. or our brothers from Stepanakert or Stepanavan have participated in this debate, except that, our Javakhetsi brother SAS, who has, at numerous times expressed his deep admiration at the likes of Varuzhan and Siamanto.

 

Assuming you are correct in that statement (which I do not concede) -- you would only be shedding light on the fact that you are the one with the deepest disrespect and stigma toward Western Armenian.

[Էլիա]

"Gor" is an integral part of spoken Western Armenian.

Սպասէ՛, ես կարծեցի որ «կոր» գործածելը սխալ էր. իմ ուսուցչուհիս ըսաւ, որ «կոր»ը չի գործածուիր երբ կը փորձեց շիտակ խօսիլ արեւմտեան հայերէնի մէջ:

 

[Gor-Gor]

Սպասէ՛, ես կարծեցի որ «կոր» գործածելը սխալ էր. իմ ուսուցչուհիս ըսաւ, որ «կոր»ը չի գործածուիր երբ կը փորձեց շիտակ խօսիլ արեւմտեան հայերէնի մէջ:

 

"Gor" is integral in spoken Western Armenian in order to differentiate between the present tense and the present continuous tense.

 

For instance:

 

I go = Yes g'ertam [present tense]

I am going = Yes g'ertam gor [present continuous]

 

Written (standard) Western Armenian does not recognize "gor" and there is therefore no way of differentiating between the 2 tenses without adding other words, for example "Yes hima g'ertam" or changing the tense entirely in order to approximate the meaning, for example "Yes bidi yertam hima."

 

Eastern Armenian, of course, has a standard present continuous tense -- by adding "oom" to the end of the verb.

[Էլիա]

"Gor" is integral in spoken Western Armenian in order to differentiate between the present tense and the present continuous tense.

 

For instance:

 

I go = Yes g'ertam [present tense]

I am going = Yes g'ertam gor [present continuous]

 

Written (standard) Western Armenian does not recognize "gor" and there is therefore no way of differentiating between the 2 tenses without adding other words, for example "Yes hima g'ertam" or changing the tense entirely in order to approximate the meaning, for example "Yes bidi yertam hima."

 

Eastern Armenian, of course, has a standard present continuous tense -- by adding "oom" to the end of the verb.

Կը հասկնամ ինչպէս «կոր»ը կը գործածուի, եւ նոյնպէս կը նկատեմ ինչպէս սխալ կը լսուի եթէ «կոր» չես գործածեր, երբ բայը այդ ժամանակին կ'ընես: Բայց, կրնա՞ս հաճիս ըսել որմէկը աւելի շիտակ է՝ «կոր»ը գործածել կամ չգործածել: Եւ կը կարծե՞ս որ պէտք ունիմ արեւելեան հայերէնը սորվիլ (գոնէ քիչ մը), կամ ոչ:

Edited May 17, 2007 by Էլիա

[Arpa]

Assuming you are correct in that statement (which I do not concede) -- you would only be shedding light on the fact that you are the one with the deepest disrespect and stigma toward Western Armenian.

Disrespect? When is the last time you or your teammates posted any Varuzhan or Siamanto? Serach and see how many I have.

You guys don’t understand do you?

I have pleaded, I have urged, I have tried to stimulate us to drop the subject since the more we talk about it, the more we think we are defending it the more we are sinking, and the more damage we are inflicting to the beautiful language of Varuzhan and Siamanto. The issue here is not te language of Varuzhan which we all admire, including those of Yerevan. What we are talking about is that so caled western Armenian parodied in those videos of Shidag Khosink (?).

The debate is about the likes of that so called teacher that Edward wrote about. The reason those of Yerevan etc. don’t participate is that they don’t feel the need like some us do, solely based on a position of weakness and inferiority complex, weith no reason may I add. I was accused of Calling it “turkahayeren”, the writer ignores that in that same sentence I also used “russahayeren”. Why did not the Yerevanites take that as an insult, is it because they know it is “russaharyeren” while we are trying our damnedest to convince OURSELVES that Istanbul Armenian is not “turkahayeren”. One example, to which you alluded, “gor” is not Armenian, well strictly speaking, it is the turkified form of K@/ԿԸ as used by Sebastatsis and Kharberdtsis after the verb, like-Բերերմ կը etc. which in Istanbul turned to “gor” to rhyme with the Turkish “gediyor/geliyor” etc. I don’t remember Varuzhan or Siamanto using “gor”, do you ? Does Tourian say- “Ինչու կապշիս կոր լճակ Ու չեն խայտար կոր քո ալեակք”

To repeat myself for the umpteenth time, I have said all of the above and more on many occasions.

There is no such thing as EA or WA, it is one language with slight variations, unless we are talking abourt turkahayeren and russaharyeren , the latter spoken on the streets of Yerevan and the former in Beirut. Te yerevanites will not deny it and they will not feel insulted because they know it as a fact. Then , what is our problem?

Once again, the more we argue the more we sink.

To repeat. Those who know Armenian (either) adequate enough see no problem or difference. Only those with limited mastery see a threat, like that teacher of Ed’s son. One wonders who certifies them as teachers. I bet you if a teacher in Yerevan were to say that about Varuzhan, Siamanto or Tourian they would be fired on the spot.

Edited May 17, 2007 by Arpa

[Arpa]

We all get bent out of shape when I use terms like "turkahayeren". Some day I will show how turkified Istanbul Armenian was until we began relearning it in Aleppo and Beurut. Some day I will show how much turkish words and idioms Baronian and Zohrab use, the latter for easy comprehension and the former for more comic relief and sarcastic crtiticism, a reflection of the prevailing vernacular of the time.

[Էլիա]

Disrespect? When is the last time you or your teammates posted any Varuzhan or Siamanto? Serach and see how many I have.

You guys don’t understand do you?

I have pleaded, I have urged, I have tried to stimulate us to drop the subject since the more we talk about it, the more we think we are defending it the more we are sinking, and the more damage we are inflicting to the beautiful language of Varuzhan and Siamanto. The issue here is not te language of Varuzhan which we all admire, including those of Yerevan. What we are talking about is that so caled western Armenian parodied in those videos of Shidag Khosink (?).

The debate is about the likes of that so called teacher that Edward wrote about. The reason those of Yerevan etc. don’t participate is that they don’t feel the need like some us do, solely based on a position of weakness and inferiority complex, weith no reason may I add. I was accused of Calling it “turkahayeren”, the writer ignores that in that same sentence I also used “russahayeren”. Why did not the Yerevanites take that as an insult, is it because they know it is “russaharyeren” while we are trying our damnedest to convince OURSELVES that Istanbul Armenian is not “turkahayeren”. One example, to which you alluded, “gor” is not Armenian, well strictly speaking, it is the turkified form of K@/ԿԸ as used by Sebastatsis and Kharberdtsis after the verb, like-Բերերմ կը etc. which in Istanbul turned to “gor” to rhyme with the Turkish “gediyor/geliyor” etc. I don’t remember Varuzhan or Siamanto using “gor”, do you ? Does Tourian say- “Ինչու կապշիս կոր լճակ Ու չեն խայտար կոր քո ալեակք”

To repeat myself for the umpteenth time, I have said all of the above and more on many occasions.

There is no such thing as EA or WA, it is one language with slight variations, unless we are talking abourt turkahayeren and russaharyeren , the latter spoken on the streets of Yerevan and the former in Beirut. Te yerevanites will not deny it and they will not feel insulted because they know it as a fact. Then , what is our problem?

Once again, the more we argue the more we sink.

To repeat. Those who know Armenian (either) adequate enough see no problem or difference. Only those with limited mastery see a threat, like that teacher of Ed’s son. One wonders who certifies them as teachers. I bet you if a teacher in Yerevan were to say that about Varuzhan, Siamanto or Tourian they would be fired on the spot.

I don't see any problem or difference between the two dialects. And I also don't use "gor" anymore, because even though it might sound a little weird, not using "gor" is the right way to speak Armenian (in both dialects, at least I think). Anyway, about the "Turkahayeren", then why did you say to forget it? Please correct me if by saying that, you didn't mean for people who speak Western Armenian to forget our dialect.

 

[Էլիա]

We all get bent out of shape when I use terms like "turkahayeren". Some day I will show how turkified Istanbul Armenian was until we began relearning it in Aleppo and Beurut. Some day I will show how much turkish words and idioms Baronian and Zohrab use, the latter for easy comprehension and the former for more comic relief and sarcastic crtiticism, a reflection of the prevailing vernacular of the time.

OK, but you're not saying that Western Armenian is more incorrect or worse than Eastern Armenian, right?

 

[Arpa]

OK, but you're not saying that Western Armenian is more incorrect or worse than Eastern Armenian, right?

Well! You asked for it, and you will force me to say it.. Yes I am saying that! So there.

Read Gor Gor's comment on the "gor" and "oom" above. How can a language be superior to te other with such incomplrtr and deffiient grammar!

Once again, you and your teammates are inflicting so much damage to tha so called WA, you don't need anybody's help.

All this because you and your teamamtes are teling us that Mashtots was an idiot for juxtaposing Ben against Beta and Da against Delta, yet you insist that Mesrop meant them to be pronounced as Pen and Ta respecively.

Edited May 17, 2007 by Arpa

[Էլիա]

Well! You asked for it, and you will force me to say it.. Yes I am saying that! So there.

Read Gor Gor's comment on the "gor" and "oom" above. How can a language be superior to te other with such incomplrtr and deffiient grammar!

Once again, you and your teammates are inflicting so much damage to tha so called WA, you don't need anybody's help.

Hello? I thought you just said that you guys weren't trying to insult Western Armenian! And last time I checked, the "oom" applies to Eastern Armenian, not Western Armenian.