Genocide Obsession

[TigrannesIII]

I'll probably be called a traitor. Thank God I have anonymity or some of the more radical Armenians might actually try to harm me physically. Of course, they would only do so because in their minds they are far more patriotic than I am- something I wholeheartedly doubt.

 

I was born in the US, have lived my whole life here, and am part of an Armenian community where I find myself very quickly being pushed out from someone in favor to someone no longer trustworthy. I am in such a position because I have feelings relating to the topic title.

 

We Diaspora-Armenians, particularly American-Armenians, have become obsessed with the Genocide. While I understand how the shared, collective trauma of the Genocide dictates a level of fixated interest in the event, the pure obsession has greatly inhibited our abilities as a community to grow, and our abilities as a political entity to realize change.

 

Our community leaders trumpet Genocide recognition. A quick look at the competing lobby groups' websites, the ANC and the Assembly, are transfixed on the Genocide. Everything is Genocide, Genocide, Genocide. All efforts are for Genocide recognition, all monies donated go to Genocide recognition. All marches and demonstrations organized seek Genocide recognition, mainly by the United States' and Turkish governments. So what?! What has it brought us?!

 

After decades, the Turkish and American governments have failed to condemn the Genocide. No reparations have been paid. I cannot go back to my ancestral land in Kharpert. Lake Van is still in Turkey. Others will counter that while those two governments have feigned recognition, others, such as France, Argentina, the Netherlands, and Russia, have in fact recognized the Genocide. Again, I refer to the point above? Ararat may tower over Yerevan, but it remains nothing more than a tease; it's still on internationally recognized Turkish territority.

 

Like every Spiurkahye, I lost family and property in the Genocide. Sure, holding up a sign that says 'We will not forget!' or 'Turkey: Guilty of Genocide' makes me feel good. I'm sure it gives everyone who has done it a sense of victory, that we have somehow honored our ancestors' memories. But at what cost? Countless dollars and hours have been spent on fruitless efforts. Instead of compelling Turkey to admit their wrongdoings, we have permitted their government to propagate and reinforce pre-existing stereotypes of Armenians as sneaky, back-stabbing traitors, trying once again to hurt the 'innocent' Turk.

 

In the process of focusing on the Genocide at all costs, we have hurt ourselves. How many times has an Armenian group backed a Republican candidate promising to vote favorably on Armenian issues? What we fail to recognize is that it is the propagation of realist political ideologies and activities that creates the political environment in which Turkey, a member of NATO, is able to muscle around less-equipped neighbors, and keep its military strong politically (relating to domestic politics). By supporting conservatives in ANY country, espeically the USA, we are reinforcing the preexisting regimes and hurting Armenia-even if said candidate wants to vote favorably on "Armenian issues".

 

The scope of Genocide has not just limited us in seeing the broader political picture, it has consumed the fascination and attention of "Armenian issues". A mobilized Armenian lobby focusing on procuring international aid from foreign governments for the homeland does the Republic of Armenia and the people of that country far greater good than holding up a sign at a protest and shouting 'Turkey is guilty! We demand our lands!'

 

The other 'burning' Armenian issue is Karabagh. Part of this problem is ethno-centrism in the pan-Armenian international community. Spiurka-hayer have chosen to remember the sufferings of Western Armenians, and neglect the sufferings of 'those other' Eastern Armenians, those purged from Karabagh, Baku, Sumgait, and Kirovabad. We have a situation on our hands now where we can influence policy-makers in many countries to seek resolutions favoring Armenia over Azerbaijan. As communities, we can organize direct aid to Stepanakert (from our own pockets and initiatives); the same can be said about aid to ARMENIA. Instead, the money goes to funding Genocide recognition projects.

 

As an Armenian, I found it sad to see that most drives to help the local communities on the ground in Armenia were initiated by odars in NGOs or the Peace Corps. While I would never reject their help because of their background, nor am I trying to imply that their help is sad, it's sad for me that Armenians, "proud Diasporan Armenians who love their country so much", have failed to deliver.

 

To truly do our ancestors proud and to truly defeat the Genocide, we must find new focus in our efforts. With the Genocide being the central issue and diverting attention needed in other areas we are in effect carrying out the final steps of the Genocide; instead of the Turks directly hurting us, we are hurting ourselves now. If nothing else, what would enable to thumb our nose more at the Genocide and the Turks than working to create a strong Republic of Armenia and not allowing our past sufferings to trip us up any more than they already have?

Edited January 14, 2005 by TigrannesIII

[Boghos]

Dear Tiger,

 

Good to see you. The topic you mention has been discussed in this forum and elsewhere at great depth. Searching around a bit might be a good idea.

[Arpa]

Barev Tigran,

Tsav@d Tanem!

Literally. I feel your pain!

Are you Abovian resurrected?

Do you want to be the next Khachatur A? We need one! Are you going to write the next "Verq hayastani"? (Lower case H to encompass all 8(?) million of us, not necessarily natives of Hayastan).

Do you want to run for King of Armenia?

I'll vote for you!

As Boghos indicates this subject has been discussed on numerous occasions, and I have expressed similar opinions. You are welcome to elaborate further. Below one of such. Oddly enough, but not surprising that every subject somehow finds its way into the Big G. How a subject like "Srika" turns into a debate on G is beyond me, but it illustrates well our "obsession" and the ensuing "paralysis". I am not afraid to state that, at times we may have brought on our calamities just so we can have an excuse for our cultural sterility. Just like those who would deliberately get in situations so they would have a broken leg and an excuse to avoid going to work.

I even have a problem that this forum has a whole category about the subject, and sadly enough it is the category most visited. A simple internet search using "armenia/n" as keyword will reveal hundreds of sites the majority of which are dedicated to the subject of the G. It is as if we bask in the warmth of it, as if we find a scapegoat for our failures. If I were so brave I would state that we brought the Genocide upon ourselves just so we would have an excuse. As if, if there were no Genocide we would create one to cover our voriks. If you think the last statement is too harsh consider the fact that, of all the calamities we have seen the Genocide was that "most shameful" era of our history that was in the making for at least a thousand years and we did nothing to avert it, we did not act until the knife "voskorin er hasel". No, it had way past the "voskor", it had "hogiyin er hasel". We were so smug and content when the Turk took over the administration and the soldiering and we were pushed on the sidelines as slaves, the "loyal minority" to tend to the secondary arts and trades that we were best at. No, not administration and governance but the menial arts and trades to buttress the Turk's hegemony. We retired to our so called pacifistic endeavors and created a whole new "cottage industry" like "koshkar/shoemaker" for the Turkish soldier, "demirjian/darbin" to make swords and daggers for the Turkish soldier, "tufenkjian" forging muskets for the Turkish soldier, "topjian", the cannon maker for the Turkish army...It was an almost self fulfilling prophesy when we went our merry ways knowing that some day those "shoes" would walk all over us, those swords and daggers would cut our own throats, those muskets and cannons would be used to massacre us en masse...

And now! We create a whole new "cottage industry" known as the Big G.

 

Fire away!

 

Maybe someone will hear you!!

 

Maybe now, finally we will take our own destiny in hand and in spite of the Turk we will be the "captain of our ship".

What ship?

We don't even have navigable waters!!

:

 

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=1602&hl=

 

Hello Rouben,

Once again you fail to seen who the author of the above quoute is.Of all the forumers I always try to bring the positive about us. You may go to my profile and see what I have written. As I said previously I may be one of the most incurable chauvinists. If what you say is true and you believe so then you owe us and explanation as to why 90 percent of us are stuck at the Genocide and are obssessed and paralyzed by its wake. How many Daniels and Siamantos have we produced since, how many Arams and Armens? Granted, we have produced Sevaks and Charentses but you will notice that they are all natives of Erevan Province. What have we accomplished in the Diaspora, specially in the arts and sciences since?

It is time we got off our big fat buffs and live and produce rather than hide behind our tragedies and blame our sterility to events that we had no control over. I lied again. We had a lot of control over our destiny but we let them happen regardless, perhaps so we can weep and lament, something we have become masters of.

Edited January 14, 2005 by Arpa

[kakachik77]

well, we have a country of ONLY 3 million people 50% of whom live in dire poverty. To me the more immediate problem is to try to help those people, rather that allocating all that money for the Genocide recognition, although we should never forget what happened because history can repeat itself.

[TigrannesIII]

Dear Tiger,

 

Good to see you. The topic you mention has been discussed in this forum and elsewhere at great depth. Searching around a bit might be a good idea.

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Sorry I missed the debate(s). I was busy getting educated at school I actually took the majority of my arguments from my letter of resignation from the AYF, one I am debating submitting or not; I will resign, I just don't know which letter to choose. It's been an interesting two and a half years, going from nearly joining the ARF outright to where I am now.

[MosJan]

Tigrannes nice to see you

[THOTH]

Nice post (1st one) Tigrannes. Nice to see you again and to see that you have grown up a bit. Though I fully see where you are comming from - and agree with a lot of what you say - I still think the Genocide is a very impotant issue for us - and I for one - am not yet ready to sell the memories of my lost kin so cheaply by letting Turkey off the hook and allowing what occured to be forgotten...of course much could be said about how poorly this issue has been handled by most all organized Armenian groups and we also understand that perpetuation (of the status quo) sometimes means more to some then resolution...

[TigrannesIII]

Thoth, I am not saying forgive and forget. I prefer LTP's policy of pursuing Genocide recognition (at government-to-government levels) with everyone but Turkey. Once Turkey is engaged in neighborly relations with us the stereotypes will cease to stick. And if they do stick, it won't be by much. Once those stereotypes are gone Turks will be able to objectiviely question their history better; not just extreme, fringe liberals like Taner Akcam, but moderates and maybe even some leaning right.

 

Genocide recognition by Turkey will be a slow process, and our efforts to compel them to make such a recognition have had the opposite effect.

 

Forgive and forget? No. Realize a new focus centered on serving our people (as opposed to being self-serving), now, post-haste.

[DominO123]

Genocide recognition by Turkey will be a slow process, and our efforts to compel them to make such a recognition have had the opposite effect.

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Lets not fool ourselves, the recognition by Turkey is not a slow process, it is an impossible process.

 

For some the genocide issue is a chance to feel somehow Armenian, when they have been already assimilated, neither speak the language, neither give the possibility to perpetuate the culture by giving their children the possibility to learn the language.

 

The fight for genocide recognition should continue, but not the fight to get Turkey recognise it, because for me this is mission impossible, neither in a near future, neither in a distant future. The genocide recognition should not be the only thing gluing Armenians together, neither be the only thing that would make someone feel Armenian.

[phantom]

Lets not fool ourselves, the recognition by Turkey is not a slow process, it is an impossible process.

 

For some the genocide issue is a chance to feel somehow Armenian, when they have been already assimilated, neither speak the language, neither give the possibility to perpetuate the culture by giving their children the possibility to learn the language.

 

The fight for genocide recognition should continue, but not the fight to get Turkey recognise it, because for me this is mission impossible, neither in a near future, neither in a distant future. The genocide recognition should not be the only thing gluing Armenians together, neither be the only thing that would make someone feel Armenian.

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Amen!

[TigrannesIII]

Lets not fool ourselves, the recognition by Turkey is not a slow process, it is an impossible process.

 

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Wrong. When Turkish professors at Turkish universities are publicly declaring the Genocide a truth, the process is already further along than we had ever imagined. A younger generation of Turks, many of whom I have personally engaged, are interested in these questions- these are the beginnings, beginnings that should have been realized decades ago but, in large part due to our own meddling, are only occurring now.

Edited January 14, 2005 by TigrannesIII

[DominO123]

Wrong. When Turkish professors at Turkish universities are publicly declaring the Genocide a truth, the process is already further along than we had ever imagined. A younger generation of Turks, many of whom I have personally engaged, are interested in these questions- these are the beginnings, beginnings that should have been realized decades ago but, in large part due to our own meddling, are only occurring now.

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`

I have exchanged with over a hundred of Turks, probably over two hundred, and I am not exagerating, many of whom are young, the endoctrination is too intense.

 

Turkish professors at Turkish universities? Yeh true, there was Turkish professors recognising it in the 20s, 30s, 40s, 50sm 60s(during the 60s, some are reported using the Turkish term for genocide), 70s, 80s(during the years of terrorist activities, targeting Turkish interests), 90s, until present time. They always existed, and will probably always exist, some truly open minded people exist in every group of people that even during very intense nationalism will still keep common sense.

 

I have exchanged with young Turks that were questioning the Turkish theses, and those persons were the kind that havn't still visited Turkish denialist web-sites or havn't talked about the topic extensivaly... and what happen later? They end up actualy reading denialist sites, and their nationalist hearth take the control over common sense.

 

Bertkays and Akcams, there will always be, and there already were, the only differences now is that they can actualy talk without being afraid of being shut, but this is just very little in a nationalistic regime that endoctrinate its people since their birth and until they die.

Edited January 14, 2005 by Fadix

[TigrannesIII]

Right, and the fact that there exists no fear about being shut up signals a fundamental change. I find it extraordinary that every single one has a nationalist heart takeover..... believing that only dehumanizes the 'other'.

[DominO123]

Right, and the fact that there exists no fear about being shut up signals a fundamental change. I find it extraordinary that every single one has a nationalist heart takeover..... believing that only dehumanizes the 'other'.

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Not quite true.

 

It is true that in one hand individual rights are more respected, but now, there is a law in the new Turkish prenal code, forbidding to discuss about the genocide.

[TigrannesIII]

Not quite true.

 

It is true that in one hand individual rights are more respected, but now, there is a law in the new Turkish prenal code, forbidding to discuss about the genocide.

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And as Turkey creeps closer and closer to EU ascension those things will disappear.

[DominO123]

And as Turkey creeps closer and closer to EU ascension those things will disappear.

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But the new Turkish Penal Code was specifically designed to please the EU.

 

I will believe you once you give me any signe of change in the Turkish psychi, and this is not about more freedom for professors, but about the typical Turk that would be open to recognise.

 

How many nationalist Turk whom were close minded denialists have you been able to convince, give me just a single example please.

[vava]

While I'm inclined to agree with much of the above, and I fully support the idea that greater things can be achieved by helping Armenia and her interests as opposed to a one-track minded pursuit of Genocide recognition, I'm not prepared cast aside the years of efforts (albeit, haphazard and inconsitent) to attain genocide recognition amongst foreign governments. It is precisely the fact that many european nations accept the AG as given, that may lead the way towards some sort of pressure for the Turkish concessions.

 

As a matter of fact, now may be the time where we must make concerted efforts to reinforce what little we've gained in terms of genocide recognition and not risk taking a step backwards once Turkey becomes a full fledged EU member state.

[Stormig]

But the new Turkish Penal Code was specifically designed to please the EU.

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That process should be far from over. It, among others, shall have to be revised again. I can't see it any other way.

[Siamanto]

TigrannesIII,

I understand that you are somehow disappointed with either - or both - the Armenian Community's or Leadership's priorities and approaches/solutions, but, unfortunately, your complaints fail to suggest an alternative plan: enumerating shortcomings/risks without suggesting solutions/mitigations can only be - at least most of the time - negative.

If you have a different approach, a different plan; then simply focus on putting together your plans instead of undermining the other teams' project and weakening your potential allies- NOT YOUR OPPONENTS.

Furthermore, your understanding - at least, description- of the existing situation seems somehow exaggerated and not necessarily accurate.

 

 

I was born in the US, have lived my whole life here, and am part of an Armenian community where I find myself very quickly being pushed out from someone in favor to someone no longer trustworthy. I am in such a position because I have feelings relating to the topic title.

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It seems understandable to me: what is confusing you?

Can it be that the ONLY - or MAIN - reason why you were - or you thought you were - "in favor" was based on your activities/views related to the Genocide. Look at it this way: when a specialist - hired for a specific task - fails to perform, the team members will naturally change/correct their assessment!

Furthermore, changing drastically views can be either a sign of mental health - open minded - or an unstable/confused person! Those who are risk averse will opt for the latter! It's up to you to manage the perception that others have of yourself!

I'm sorry! Such is life!

 

 

 

We Diaspora-Armenians, particularly American-Armenians, have become obsessed with the Genocide. While I understand how the shared, collective trauma of the Genocide dictates a level of fixated interest in the event, the pure obsession has greatly inhibited our abilities as a community to grow, and our abilities as a political entity to realize change.

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For the record, there's nothing particular about American-Armenians, besides the fact that YOU know them better than the rest of the Diaspora!

First of all, what you call "obsession," I call determination and perseverance!

Second of all, Armenians did grow relatively faster than most other immigrant communities!

The Jewish Community is far more "obsessed" with the Genocide, they are also among the fastest growing /stronger communities! Considering where we started after the Genocide, we did great!

I am far more "obsessed" with the Genocide than most Armenians; yet, I don't think that I did grow less - mentally, culturally and professionally - than others!

 

 

 

Our community leaders trumpet Genocide recognition. A quick look at the competing lobby groups' websites, the ANC and the Assembly, are transfixed on the Genocide. Everything is Genocide, Genocide, Genocide. enocide recognition, mainly by the United States' and Turkish governments. So what?! What has it brought us?!

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First of all, Community Leaders have the tendency of exploiting anything that may help them: IT HAS NOTHING TO DO with the Genocide! A bit more realistic understanding of Politics may prove useful!

Second of all, EVEN a "quick look" at the AAA's and ANCA's websites would indicate that

1- The word "genocide" DOES NOT OCCUR even once on AAA's home page - as of 01/15/2005 16:00 ET. There's ONLY one article related to the Genocide

2- Yes, the ANCA is more focused on the Genocide.

 

Personally, I find that "balanced!"

 

 

 

 

All marches and demonstrations organized seek Genocide recognition, mainly by the United States' and Turkish governments. So what?! What has it brought us?!

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First of all, it brought us CLOSER! That has no price and is the foundation of any Community!

Second of all, it puts us on the Political Map: the AG is a "joker" card that can be used - by the West - against Turkey when convenient! That may help us!

Most of all, if you don't feel like it, then focus on other projects!

 

 

 

 

After decades, the Turkish and American governments have failed to condemn the Genocide. No reparations have been paid. I cannot go back to my ancestral land in Kharpert. Lake Van is still in Turkey. Others will counter that while those two governments have feigned recognition, others, such as France, Argentina, the Netherlands, and Russia, have in fact recognized the Genocide. Again, I refer to the point above? Ararat may tower over Yerevan, but it remains nothing more than a tease; it's still on internationally recognized Turkish territority.

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Do you believe in Magic and effortless achievements??

What were you expecting? Were you expecting to recover the Armenian Lands from TEMPORARILY SO CALLED Turkey in a couple of decades of dedication and struggle!

With all due respect, you need to be a bit more realistic in your expectations!

It takes time to build a Nation! I'm quite conformable with our achievements!

 

 

 

 

 

Like every Spiurkahye, I lost family and property in the Genocide. Sure, holding up a sign that says 'We will not forget!' or 'Turkey: Guilty of Genocide' makes me feel good. I'm sure it gives everyone who has done it a sense of victory, that we have somehow honored our ancestors' memories. But at what cost? Countless dollars and hours have been spent on fruitless efforts. Instead of compelling Turkey to admit their wrongdoings, we have permitted their government to propagate and reinforce pre-existing stereotypes of Armenians as sneaky, back-stabbing traitors, trying once again to hurt the 'innocent' Turk.

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"we have permitted their government to propagate and reinforce pre-existing stereotypes of Armenians as sneaky, back-stabbing traitors, trying once again to hurt the 'innocent' Turk.?"

Is that how you feel? Is that your perception of the "sneaky, back-stabbing" Armenian? Please, speak for yourself! Thanks!

Is there any data/polls that substantiate your baseless statement? Thanks!

Please check the facts!

 

 

 

The scope of Genocide has not just limited us in seeing the broader political picture, it has consumed the fascination and attention of "Armenian issues". A mobilized Armenian lobby focusing on procuring international aid from foreign governments for the homeland does the Republic of Armenia and the people of that country far greater good than holding up a sign at a protest and shouting 'Turkey is guilty! We demand our lands!'

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Please allow me to repeat myself:

1- I chose to say that Armenians are not "obsessed" but determined!

2- Being focused and determined DID NOT PREVENT us from growing and seeing the big picture!

Another example would be the Jewish Community!

 

 

 

 

 

The other 'burning' Armenian issue is Karabagh. Part of this problem is ethno-centrism in the pan-Armenian international community. Spiurka-hayer have chosen to remember the sufferings of Western Armenians, and neglect the sufferings of 'those other' Eastern Armenians, those purged from Karabagh, Baku, Sumgait, and Kirovabad. We have a situation on our hands now where we can influence policy-makers in many countries to seek resolutions favoring Armenia over Azerbaijan. As communities, we can organize direct aid to Stepanakert (from our own pockets and initiatives); the same can be said about aid to ARMENIA. Instead, the money goes to funding Genocide recognition projects.

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First of all, so called Karabagh does not exist: those lands are called Artsakh! Thanks!

 

Second of all, as a descendant of Western Armenians, my - and my friends - perception of the Artsakhahays has never been "those other Eastern Armenians!" (Personally, sometimes I call Armenia the "Republic of North-Eastern Armenia" for Political reasons and for the NON-ARMENIAN public. My goal being ONLY to emphasize that:

1- Most of our Lands are still occupied

2- I live in exile: after all, my grand parents did not leave WILLINGLY their home.)

 

Third of all, in the Diaspora, we DO LOBBY in favor of Artsakh's and Armenia's interests!

Besides your perceptions and "personal battles," do you take into consideration facts?

 

 

 

 

As an Armenian, I found it sad to see that most drives to help the local communities on the ground in Armenia were initiated by odars in NGOs or the Peace Corps. While I would never reject their help because of their background, nor am I trying to imply that their help is sad, it's sad for me that Armenians, "proud Diasporan Armenians who love their country so much", have failed to deliver.

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Would you care to present a list of NGOs operating in Armenia including the following data:

1- Who initiated the project

2- The personnel/staff members

 

It is secondary who funds the NGOs! In any case, if funded by non-Armenians, but initiated and operated by Armenians; then your previous statement that Armenians do not lobby for the interests of Armenia would be FALSE!

For the record, I doubt that the number of non-Armenian NGOs/Associations/Individuals assisting - operating in - Armenia is significant relatively to the Armenian ones!

Check the facts! Thank you!

 

 

 

 

To truly do our ancestors proud and to truly defeat the Genocide, we must find new focus in our efforts. With the Genocide being the central issue and diverting attention needed in other areas we are in effect carrying out the final steps of the Genocide; instead of the Turks directly hurting us, we are hurting ourselves now. If nothing else, what would enable to thumb our nose more at the Genocide and the Turks than working to create a strong Republic of Armenia and not allowing our past sufferings to trip us up any more than they already have?

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I don't know if "we must?"

I'm afraid that as long as you have no plausible plans, solutions or realistic assessment of the realities you would be wasting our time!

Good Luck!

[Siamanto]

Dear Tiger,

 

Good to see you. The topic you mention has been discussed in this forum and elsewhere at great depth. Searching around a bit might be a good idea.

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Only once!!!!

The (re)invention of the wheel is a cylic event!!

[Siamanto]

Oddly enough, but not surprising that every subject somehow finds its way into the Big G. How a subject like "Srika" turns into a debate on G is beyond me, but it illustrates well our "obsession" and the ensuing "paralysis".

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=1602&hl=

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You call it "obsession," I call it a "determination." It does not have to "paralyze" it can also "motivate!"

Digressions are facts of life: I've seen discussions about "srika" turning into "erika" "amerika" "pabrika" or "intch g@ses ka!"

It's not true that most discussions "turn into a debate on G!"

 

 

 

 

I am not afraid to state that, at times we may have brought on our calamities just so we can have an excuse for our cultural sterility. Just like those who would deliberately get in situations so they would have a broken leg and an excuse to avoid going to work.

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=1602&hl=

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That is a very serious accusation and a very complex subject i.e. what is "Armenian Culture" in the Diaspora!

 

 

 

 

I even have a problem that this forum has a whole category about the subject, and sadly enough it is the category most visited. A simple internet search using "armenia/n" as keyword will reveal hundreds of sites the majority of which are dedicated to the subject of the G.

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=1602&hl=

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Facts (accessible to everybody:)

 

1- Hyeforum Statistics

Topic Posts Views

Armenia(Armenian Nation) 150 13000 (Approximative total of Forums in ARMENIA)

Life 303 9946

Love and Romance 223 8442

Genocide 668 5686

Chit Chat 175 5816

Science and Technology 376 5496

Humor 665 5061

Music 498 4178

 

(Very disapointing in Arts & Literature!)

 

2- Website Statistics (Based on Google)

"armenia" 13.5M

"+armenia +genocide" 196K or 0.15%

"armenian" 4M

"+armenian +genocide" 260K or 7%

 

Apparently, the numbers disagree with you!

 

 

 

 

It is as if we bask in the warmth of it, as if we find a scapegoat for our failures. If I were so brave I would state that we brought the Genocide upon ourselves just so we would have an excuse. As if, if there were no Genocide we would create one to cover our voriks. If you think the last statement is too harsh consider the fact that, of all the calamities we have seen the Genocide was that "most shameful" era of our history that was in the making for at least a thousand years and we did nothing to avert it, we did not act until the knife "voskorin er hasel". No, it had way past the "voskor", it had "hogiyin er hasel". We were so smug and content when the Turk took over the administration and the soldiering and we were pushed on the sidelines as slaves, the "loyal minority" to tend to  the secondary arts and trades that we were best at. No, not administration and governance but the menial arts and trades to buttress the Turk's hegemony. We retired to our so called pacifistic endeavors and created a whole new "cottage industry"  like  "koshkar/shoemaker" for the Turkish soldier, "demirjian/darbin" to make swords and daggers for the Turkish soldier, "tufenkjian" forging muskets for the Turkish soldier, "topjian", the cannon maker for the Turkish army...It was an almost self fulfilling prophesy when we went our merry ways knowing that some day those "shoes" would walk all over us, those swords and daggers would cut our own throats, those muskets and cannons would be used to massacre us en masse...

And now! We create a whole new "cottage industry" known as the Big G.

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=1602&hl=

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A very serious accusation!

Your reasoning remind of those abusive males who accuse women - their victims - of encouraging such abusive behavior in themself! That's only one view, not mine!

Even if we admit that it may have been the case, Armenians/Women, today, are willing to fight for their rights. Period!

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe now, finally we will take our own destiny in hand and in spite of the Turk we will be the "captain of our ship".

What ship?

We don't even have navigable waters!!

:

 

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=1602&hl=

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Check with Maral, she may be looking for a "captain" for her Arche!

Personally, I don't intend to join you! As a Pisces, I will be staying here with the Mermaids: I enjoy their company!

By the way, please make sure it leaves shore and does not sink! As a Nation, we can't afford more misfortunes!

[Siamanto]

Once Turkey is engaged in neighborly relations with us the stereotypes will cease to stick. And if they do stick, it won't be by much. Once those stereotypes are gone Turks will be able to objectiviely question their history better; not just extreme, fringe liberals like Taner Akcam, but moderates and maybe even some leaning right.

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Of course! Isn't that obvious!

 

 

 

 

 

Wrong. When Turkish professors at Turkish universities are publicly declaring the Genocide a truth, the process is already further along than we had ever imagined. A younger generation of Turks, many of whom I have personally engaged, are interested in these questions- these are the beginnings, beginnings that should have been realized decades ago but, in large part due to our own meddling, are only occurring now.

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Is your goal seeking the Truth?? or simply proving YOUR points?

Didn't you say, earlier:

Countless dollars and hours have been spent on fruitless efforts. Instead of compelling Turkey to admit their wrongdoings, we have permitted their government to propagate and reinforce pre-existing stereotypes of Armenians as sneaky, back-stabbing traitors, trying once again to hurt the 'innocent' Turk.

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Did we or did we not have achievements?

 

 

 

 

And as Turkey creeps closer and closer to EU ascension those things will disappear.

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Of course! It is also "true" that tomorrow, I will drive to Las Vegas, make a fortune and become a millionaire!

Does anybody want to share my winnings? If yes, you'll have to invest my risk free business proposition!

[gamavor]

Armenian Genocide is NOT Armenian Issue!!! It is Turkish Issue and those that are alies of Turkey (i.e. USA, EU, Israel, number of Arab countries).

 

The reason why many Diaspora Armenians are engaged with this issue is becasue of their citizenship. As citizens of USA, Europe, etc. they are entilted to express their views.

 

In order to put an end to this story, the Government of Republic of Armenia should demand putting the Armenian Genocide issue in the agenda of the United Nations without participation in any commissions and deliberations with the Turkish representatives.

 

The validity of Kars Treaty, as well as Moskow Treaty concerning the state border between Armenia and Turkey, and demand for material compensation and restitution of the land to the heirs of Genocide surviviors should also be included in the UN prospective resolution.

[DominO123]

Armenian Genocide is NOT Armenian Issue!!! It is Turkish Issue and those that are alies of Turkey (i.e. USA, EU, Israel, number of Arab countries).

 

The reason why many Diaspora Armenians are engaged with this issue is becasue of their citizenship. As citizens of USA, Europe, etc. they are entilted to express their views.

 

In order to put an end to this story, the Government of Republic of Armenia should demand putting the Armenian Genocide issue in the agenda of the United Nations without participation in any commissions and deliberations with the Turkish representatives.

 

The validity of Kars Treaty, as well as Moskow Treaty concerning the state border between Armenia and Turkey, and demand for material compensation and restitution of the land to the heirs of Genocide surviviors should also be included in the UN prospective resolution.

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Quite logical, I think your view could be shortened by only saying this: "Since we should not try pleasing the Turks to recognise the genocide, because they won't recognise it in the first place, we can question their territorial intergrity, since that we do that or don't, won't changed anything in what concerns Turkey and the recognition of the genocide."

 

One of the reasons why Armenian organisations were easy questioning Turkey's integrity, was because in their opinion, this would only prevent Turkey to recognise the genocide.

 

They do not understand that, by having idiots like Hala***oglus disgustly reverting the role of the victims and the aggressors, they are making understand Armenians, that we don't need to try pleasing them.

Edited January 15, 2005 by Fadix

[Sasun]

Siamanto, you are making some good points, I particularly liked the statistics part which was quite surprising to me. The reason is in this forum we are told quite obsessively day in and out that there is a Genocide obsession. And it seems as if it is true, because a lie told many times creates the impression that it is true.

 

I will be short, to me it is more simple, and there are two parts in it.

 

1. As a moral question - Genocide recognition is a matter of basic justice. Any moral person would be for the acknowledgement of the truth, and if we Armenians did not consider this an important issue something would be wrong.

2. As a practical question - Genocide recognition would be an important asset for our republic. Landlocked, small Armenia will always have a hard time to become a decent country in terms of economy and its ability to contain challenges by hostile neighbors. A lot has been stolen from us, and if we get back what belongs to us then we can easily be what we deserve to be - a decent country where life is not very hard. A widespread recognition of the Genocide would much help our cause of getting what rightfully belongs to us.

Edited January 16, 2005 by Sasun