sen_Vahan

"hay mard, tanjvats, tsavid arjhani, ches karogh dadrel hoghum hayreni: piti tapares ashkharhe ashkharh, vor hetqd toghnes gortsov qo ardar:" expromt Expromt? Are you the author? "the last word in the last line is a joke of course." And the rest to inspire armenians to leave the country more? By the way, What does it mean "tsavid arjani"??? What a sadomasohism?!

Sovats porov chen gagaparachosum:

"Of course! Consider what happened to Russians. Chekhov was right when he predicted the generation that follows will be one of crocodiles. Dostoevsky was damn wrong to think that Russians were destined to play a messianic role.... Turgenev and Tolstoy were far more critical of Russians and they had no illusions about them. I think that's one of their assets." This is an interesting issue. I think that's because Chekhov was "more contemporary" in a sense that he belonged to the next generation of writers after Dostoevsky, he was closer to the "collapse" in minds. Yes, and he was more practical realist than Dostoevsky who was probably a realist with the elements of mysticism. But one should not forget that Anton Pavlovich grew up in a dusty and dirty southern Taganrog full of jews which had a trace in his memmories "vechno ggggggugggali" and he did not get a mystical religious family education from the soil as Dostoevsky. "At the turn of the century the West, including Russia, was divided into Dreyfusards and anti-Dreyfusards. The first were for justice, the second were anti-Semites. Suvorin was an anti-Deyfusard, Chekhov was for justice!" I would say Chekhov was an anti-semite but for justice. The topic of anti-semitism is all along his life, that's what one can see from his letters and memmories which is hard to argue with. "I am a great admirer of Solzhenitsyn. I believe he belongs with the great ones of the 19th century, except for his nationalism, which is his weak point, a liability. But i agree that writers, as human beings, should be allowed their own share of blind spots and defects. Nobody has a right to demand perfection from them. But that doesn't mean we should cover up, explain away and justify their weaknesses." Ara, probably I don't understand the word nationalism in your language. Maybe you mean he is a patriot? I do not try to justify anybody's weaknesses, it is not reasonable. I just want to say that the so called psychological aberration standing for many great men's anti-semitism is absolutely wrong. What might be the reason for such a collective aberration in minds in last 3 or 4 hudred years? And I do not require a perfection from a writer, I do not share your attitude towards armenian people as anti-semits. What I would like to see is a more careful and thorough approach to this problem otherwise we look like ugly paranoics in your writings and jews being victims of our hatred. And one gets tired reading you. I know you may say do not read. If that is the solution then keep on in the same direction, lose your readers.

Stormy, I don't get why you posted it as an answer to my last post? All I mean is that a wise commander/army general/ should never start a war knowing in advance he will lose. It is just "don't begin a war if you want to win but know you will lose", the wars need to be won. That's it. Avarayri chakatamart' was lost and there was no doubt it would be. A vivid example is Chechnya - no way to win it for chechens (or whoever fights there) and they just rape own people, it is not heroism.

If I understand MJ's point right then I would add that it is rediculous to be involved in the war which you will lose for sure knowing it in advance. if the army is not ready yet for the attack or defend then keep growing untill it is otherwise you are going to lose peoples' lives with absolutely no result. But I might get the point wrong, Vahan

Ara, First,I just don't understand the attitude to Dostoevsky as a nationalist. Was he a nat-ist if he considered a special historic role for his country? Second, yes, there was a great rumor about Suvorin's anti-semitism. I woul bring a peace from D. Galkovskiy's "Beskonechniy Tupik" in russian exactly about that: "Odnovremenno Anton pavlovich metal gromi i molnii po povodu antisemitizma Suvorina (kotori nikogda sebe podobnix vixodok ne pozvolyal). Velikiy pisatel' zemli Russkoy vstal goroy za unigennix i oskorblennix detey evreyskix millionerov. No stoilo kakomu-nibud' "shmule" nastupit' Chekhovu na mozol', i tut ge pokaznoe teoreticheskoe yudofil'stvo smenilos' vpolne konkretnoy yudofobiey." That's all about it. As far as my attitude is concerned , I think it is irrelevant here since the issue was about YOUR writings in general about armenians (who by the way are not all from the Middle East). At least, there is probably another non-anti-semite - you. Or maybe you are also one? You are not an exclusion, everybody writes about X-s,Y-s,Z-s hatred toward jews,ah,ah,ah... poor jews... become another Chekhov and close them,protect all by your large shoulders. Maybe someone can write all the way around sometime, showing their hatred to others including armenians. Solgenizin's last writing "Dvesti let vmeste" ("Two hundred years together") is about this topic where he tries to show why there were/are many problems and hatred btw russians and jews during last 200 years. There is nothing intrinsically new or unique but at least Solgenizin tried to show that the hatred is from both sides. Perhaps an armenian scholar can also show that sometime which will require more serious approach than yours. Yes, serious otherwise is not acceptable when you deal with the inter-national problems.

"Anyway, sorry for responding to your feelings I'll leave you alone now " Nairi, The lack of logics in your posts makes me think that you need to strengthen your logical and analytical skills.

Ara, Chekhov called his two dogs Brom and Khina and to be philologically sharper he attached surnames to them - Brom Isaevich and Khina Markovna. In his letter from Paris to his sister he wrote: Dear Masha, tell Khina Markovna that I had a dinner with Mark Matveevich Antokol'skiy. Want more examples? "On pisat' ne umeet i voobshe bezdaren, kak i vse kreshenie shmuli" (he cannot write and in general is a dull(untalented) as all baptized shmules(jews were called so)) "Ne lyublyu, kogda jidki treplyut moe imya.Eto portit nervi."(I don't like when jids (jews) play with my name, it makes me nervous) Want more? Read his letters, please, you will find more than enough. About armenians: your generalizations don't hold water, one can easily say they are made by a non-philosopher. Armenians don't hate russians, first. (in their vast majority) They would not hate turks if there was no genocide. I can tell you about my personal attitude to turks - I do really like that people, the only thing that makes me mad is the fact of the killings/genocide which "puts" a bridge/border btw us. Tell me please, were there any sharply represented examples of arm's hatred towards turks in the Ottoman Empire among armenian scholars,writers,poets. Are there any poems or novels written before the genocide showing our hatred to turks? No! Now , please, compare that with the jewish case. The thing that Zarian, Shahnur,etc were anti-semits don't give an answer to my question - why?? Why these people, as well as Chekhov,etc, were anti-? What did make them to become anti-? Saying "they were" and nothing else shows your ignorance.

Guys form Russia, does any of you know whether Arm Embassy will allow citizens of Armenia to vote for the president? They did not post it on their webpage.

An interesting page: http://pear.netfirms.com/cgi-bin/vote/vote...ent&action=view look at statistics

Nairi, Read more carefully This is a free country, I don't need j-ion to hate or love And I don't think two giants of literature lost their humanity. Do more research I started to write about this not to show my feelings but to ask why is it so dense in Ara's posts. The more you write about that the more the problem will go deeper. Have a good time, Vahan

Generalization is all over his thread. Right, I don't need to read it and he should not lose his readers if cares about them as I said before. If Dostoevsky and Chekhov were mediocre citizens/writers then imagine how poor the 20th century was (and the 21st is). Is it why modern writers don't find anything else but refering to them? Probably you should read them first (Dostoevsky&Chekhov) and then the conversation will be much nicer OK, enough about this otherwise we will disturb Mr. Baliozian too much to write more and more about nasty, hooligan and anti-semite armenians His writings are supposed to be a mirror for us to see how ugly we are, ahh, ohh, ehh

Originally posted by ara baliozian: Armenian anti-Semitism interests me because it exposes some of us as racists" Exactly , some of us not all and not the majority. So, why does he need to do generalizations? I thought you were against any kind of generalization " And paraphrasing (if I may Ara): "Only those who recognize themselves in my writing feel insulted". In other words,why would you feel insulted about something that isn't about you? " Why do I need to read so much about that problem which is given as if all of us were that kind. Ara talks about armenianism, about anti-semite armenians, etc here which is as somebody called 'Armenia online'. The way he puts things may easily insult many of us who don't share his thoughts and who does not fit into his "HEROES". So, your paraphrasing is wrong, sorry "I'm not sure if it's strange or not, but there was certainly no reason for them to give up their intellect, objectivity, and more importantly, humanity just because of a few idiot Jews. " First, not a few but a lot Second, as I said I can hardly imagine that people LIKE THEM had that feeling towards jews. I am asking why? The way you put it equals Dostoevsky and Chekhov to mediocre citizens and modern writers.(also mediocre in thier majority) "Thanks for the translation. I trust your word " Khndrem Misht hamezek

Did you guys know this online dictionary? not bad... http://www.troy.am/dictionary/

Thanks , Harut! I will try to find it.

Thanks, vava! Ok, I went there and the first book appearing when you search armenian dictionary is exactly what I was talking about And it has a very high ranking! I don't know about others there, I would like to see or would like someone to tell me which one deserves to be paid for The one I bought before was returned on the next day

"Esli ug zashla rech' o predrassudkax, to kak vi dumaete: evrey menee pitaet predrassudkov k russkomu,chem russkiy k evreyu?" Ne pobol'she li?... u menya pered glazami pis'ma evreev, da i ne iz prostolud'ya, a obrazovannix evreev, - i skol'ko nenavisti v etix pis'max k "korennomu naseleniyu"! A glavnoe , - pishut, da i ne primechayut etogo sami." "If talking about prejudice one may ask: a jew has less prejudice to a russian or vice versa? isn't that more?... I have letters from jews in front of me, and not from poor jews but from educated ones, and how much of hatred are in there towards the native population! What is most important is that they write and do not even see it." Hope this helps. Yes we are all individuals but also belong to certain group of peoples/nations/races with own interests,etc. I can hardly imagine that such an educated and talented writer as Chekhov was an anti-semite. He was. How come, what happened to a big russian literature star to roll down to the so-called anti-semitism? Moreover, even some of Dostoevsky's biographers agree upon his being the same. Isn't this strange? As for anti-... crap in this forum I think it is not so sharply represented. At least we have good moderators. But unfortunately they do not delete what Ara posts about jews here. If I follow your approach of individualism in relations then sorry but what Ara posts about them/us is complete crap because in majority we are not anti-semits here and we can be insulted to read it. He should find another classroom

I have recently bought an Arm/english/arm vocabulary here in university bookstore by two ****yan-s. (Hipocrine), an ugly yellow compact dictionary. That they don't give good transcripts there etc is not maybe so important. But in the introduction section they say that arm alphabet consists of 38 letters.Wasn't it 39?Or the authors neglect one I don't know, or maybe it was just a mistake? Does anybody know whether there is any good dictionary arm/english/arm here? Those made in Armenia are very good (at least all I saw) but here for some reason they are very mediocre.

Arpa, In high school in Erevan we were thougth that Musa Ler means musaneri ler because of its beauty. Musa has nothing to do with Mose or Movses, what a nonsense.

Ara, I will use latin letter for russian here. From "Dnevnik Pisatelya" (Writer's Diary): "Esli ug zashla rech' o predrassudkax, to kak vi dumaete: evrey menee pitaet predrassudkov k russkomu,chem russkiy k evreyu?" Ne pobol'she li?... u menya pered glazami pis'ma evreev, da i ne iz prostolud'ya, a obrazovannix evreev, - i skol'ko nenavisti v etix pis'max k "korennomu naseleniyu"! A glavnoe , - pishut, da i ne primechayut etogo sami." My point was not that he was an anti-semite as some of his biographers think but to show that the thought "he did not care at all about jews" is wrong. This does not mean though that he was an anti-semite, he never was. I have never heard about anti-semitism among armenians in Armenia (in Soviet Union one could never hear about anti-semitism in Armenia). The "worst" attitude towards them among us is usually that of Lebanese Armenians (or close to them) . Let me guess why... Sometimes I understand people having that feeling because I worked and studied with jews, they provoke that attitude towards themselves because of THEIR attitude to others like "use and throw away", their xenophobia,and looking to others "from the top of the hill". I happened to hear a conversation btw two famous american jewish scientists-academicians about the war in Israel. The point was that there is no solution to the problem unless all the b*** arabs are exterminated there. Do I need to continue? They came to the point that there may be no solution to the national problem unless it is wiped out. Hmmm, I recalled nazi german and the Ottoman Empire. That you write so much about this confuses me because I can't remember when armenians made jewish pogroms (don't tell me please about events that might have happened in Byzantine), or had a war with them.

Thanks, TB. Do these words in Sumerian and Armenian have the same meaning? Very interesting... Mosjan, PM aneluz ed nkar' karog es im haszen el avelaznel Te "All Rights Reserved" harz ka?

"I can't fathom anybody with even half a brain be otherwise." So,I am > half a brain Hmmmm...

Hey, TB! Nice to see you! The legend in Gigamish was about Babeli King Family or Sumeri King? When I was a high school student for some reason I thought Sumerians were Armenians

Arpa, I was very honest in my cynicism

Look, look,look, there is no ark over there