sen_Vahan

But now honestly, which is more enjoyable eating or excercising? At least eating is always good and in any situation.

Artsax is not solved yet, both Azerbajan and Georgia are even in worse economic situation, Georgia moreover has Abkhazia's problem again not solved yet. You have great imagination!

Napoleon@ khelagarvez, erb imazav, vor ink@ @ndamen@ tkhvatsk a

Bravo! I expected somebody to say this. In homeland a dirty house in diaspora a bunch of pussies.

Thanks, Arpa! We are getting too far, lets concentrate on the issue that is how do we see this problem solved and what do we really want except the genocide international recognition - so far I saw opinions about Ani, Ararat, which makes me think that we understand that it is not real to demand lands and get them but just some fetishes. Is this what our diasporan political parties want too? Whatever we discuss and conclude is not probably going to change anything but I want to understand the armenians here and to see whether there can be any common points with today's young turkish generation (with some of them I constatnly keep in touch discussing this issue) Do you think that Turkey will do the step to compensate somehow? How hard may that be for Armenian government to deal with Turkey having the Diaspora behind?

THOTH, One needs to know the barbaric and savage opressor especially when you leave under its rule. The responsibility that armenian intelligents should care at the time was to be aware of that and not let the nation be massacred instead of giving a support to the raising new young turk government. Didn't they know what can happen to all, where did they forget their diplomacy if they had some? Again, it's too late to blame anybody but it is necessary to understand our fault that led to the genocide and we need to say that directly to modern turks, show them that yes we were wrong doing that but it is not a justification for killings of innocents. This is where the strength is absolutely important, and I have to agree with MJ that the weakness became the reason for killings and this is why the weakness is immoral.

No, TB, it means (direct translation, I am sure there's an english analog for that saying) is "No smoke without the fire". I posted it meaning that armenians would not be massacred without any reason. (no justification though, don't get me wrong)

TB, I don't know russians saying that. If you refer to what I posted ("net dima bez ognya") I am afraid you either misunderstood or don't know what it means. P.S. Those of you making personal attacks, plz either leave the thread (I started it so I don't want to see that here) or change the attitude please.

Vava, This is not an easy subject. As you know, almost every year there are some armenians, azeris or somebody else killed or bitten by skinheads either in the metro or in the city's markets. Unless you get a russian citizenship you are as they say "na ptich'ix pravax" since the laws for immigrants, workers from other countries, etc are not well established which gives a good chance to the authorities to grab money , which do not really care which one is the armenian and which one is the azeri. As for the common people they also don't know a difference btw azeris and armenians and if they have the prejudice they have too all caucasians. Another thing is that Moscow has a special status, it's much harder to survive in Moscow without a citizenship than in any other city.

Hey TB, It is wonderful to feel and have affinity toward each other but I for one feel awkward to hava an affinity based on the common tragedy, that our ancestors were massacred. I would rather feel it based on the common language.Unfortunately, only a few of diasporan armenians speak the language. As for the revolutionaries I don't blame them it is too late, and I agree they had the right to rebell, today's turks will also agree with you that everybody had the right to do so. But I see some connection in the fact of armenians helping young turks and later massacred armenians, specifically armenians since the orders were against them. This is maybe because of the weakness, stupidity we had. I also don't know what should be done to solve this problem that's why I am discussing this and want people here to have an input. As for your last two sentences I am afraid you need to extract the meening I don't get it

I would not say there is a prejudice specifically towards armenians in moscow. There is a lot of people from Caucas in moscow today and all of them face that attitude especially from the policemen and local authorities. The problem is that it is a very good way for the authorities including the police to earn money - one can sometimes read articles in newspapers that caucasians are the best source of money for the police, etc. On the one hand, russia lets armenians, azeris ,etc enter the country pretty easily even if you have no job and on the other hand police in big cities constatnly stop them on the streets asking for documents such as the "registraziya", "propiska", "gragdanstvo". Unfortunately, the bets way to get those documents is by giving "vzyatka"=kashark because for one who respects the laws it is nearly impossible to go to the "pasportniy stol" to get the registration since there's is an infinite line waiting for that.

Hi there! DEpends on whether you are an armenian citizen or australian. If armenian then you don't need a visa for moscow but need to keep in hand the tickets showing when you arrived to moscow and when you are going to depart. (you can survive that way for a couple of days) If you are an australian citizen then I do not know but you can probably get a visa in SVO upon the arrival - you will need to tell them the reason of visit and the address you are going to stay in. You should calm down in the city of Moscow you can meet even a "nicer" attitude towards you from the policemen on the streets if you look armenian

TB, The efforts today need to be directed to openning the borders and lifting the blockade not preserving "good armenians" in diaspora that are always ready to help. We don't need an alternative Armenia we already have one and all the efforts should be made for her. In this respect, I see a great progress in the homeland with the turkish borders opened and the commercial and cultural relations started. For this to happen the genocide problem and all the claims must be solved and put aside. So, it might be that we need something in between the ugly and beautiful solutions by you. As for the rebellions and whether or not tyhe massacres would take place if armenians did not do anything, russians say "net dima bez ognya", and athough no justifiation can be found for the Young Turk government but armenians had a big influence on their own genocide.

I have another question to all, Almost 90 years of the history after the genocide and nothing is really done. How much time it is going to take us to educate our people such that they keep away or even get rid of their ambitions and start thinking constructively to solve this problem. Ain't we become sick talking, talking about the massacres, about how our ancestors were killed, etc and doing no steps to proceed. Are we ready to face the recognition? Won't most of us in Diaspora lose their identity after Turkey recognizes? What does really bind us to each other in this prosperous country? Every time having a meeting with armenians here I am having a sad feeling that it is NOT the language that binds us, it is NOT the common country that we share, it is NOT the history of Armenia but it is the genocide and the concept of the armenian church - the concept because I am not sure about its functions.

Yes, I think he was doing it sincerely although I am not sure what you mean. He heard what he was expecting to.

So,is this the turning point in our attitude, THOTH? If an armenian scholar claims lands, and as we know there's a lot like him, but many others just want the recognition of the crime then we are splitted. What I can see is that more and more armenians change their attitude meaning they stop talking about lands and just want the crime to be recognized.

sorry for the last post, I did it in a wrong way

Arpa, In my opinion, this is because the armenian side has its ambitions at the first place which does not let the dialogue begin. Not sure about the turks but they always seem to be more objective and less ambitious than our people. An armenian intelligent is having a hard time to face the reality and facts which is not true about the turkish one. I don't understand what you mean by Turkey is lying. Are we doing the same? And I have to agree with Ali that the-lost-by-sword may be taken back in the same way. Lands can be taken only by war - direct war or diplomatic. Although I agree but I cannot imagine how stupid the armenian intelligencia in the Ottoman Empire could be not to use all the ways to stop the massacre. Moreover, who was one of the financial sources for the Young Turks? Well, if you are not sure you will win then the battle does not make sense. No? If you know that the result may be a massacred population then you are going in the wrong direction. Didn't armenians know all this? Exactly. Hoho, very ambitious, I am not going to fight for the west, and I am not sure there is enough potential for that in Armenia. Maybe I just imagine what it could be to deal with Turkey in any way other than diplomacy. Edit Note: I hope you do not mind I corrected the quote problem

Living in the US one starts to think more and more about the Genocide issue and a probable solution to the problem. Whereas there are those doing certain steps to normalize the relations btw Armenia and Turkey, such as TARC, most of us do just reading, talking, thinking, etc. And it seems there is no coherence in our thougts around this vital issue. There was a Genocide Commemoration day recently around here where Armenians as well as Turks were present. I could not help thinking that we already don't know what we want and we don't have a real, constructive idea of how to find a dialogue with Turks. One of the invited scholars started to bring old sayings about the genocide, what the genocide means, that 2.5 mln Armenians lived in the Ottoman Empire, and the other one went even further answering Turkish students after the lecture that if the genocide is recognized "those" provinces whould be given back to Armenia. Turks' reply was "Ok, thank you." Is this how we are going to form relations with Turkey by recycling stupid things? Talking with the Armenians after the Commemoration I figured out that everybody has different opinions about this issue. Why does this happen? Are our political organizations different around this problem, do we have clear approach how to normalize the relations with Turkey? Even an easier question might be asked - do we know what we want, do we know the official position of the state of Armenia? Didn't this become something for just keeping the ethnic identity? I would like to know your points. Vahan

"ARE YOU ABSOLUTELY WACKO? If you pursue this line of reasoning, given the advanced state of DNA genetic science, you would be able to prove that a large percentage of Armenians should follow their ODAR genes and go back to France, Sweden, China, India, Israel, etc. " Gnaaaaaaaz kash@, hesa Episkoposyanin eli shur kta mer Hakarak@

Has anybody heard of the Hamshenahays? They are Muslim and speak Armenian. There has been a lot written about them, even here, conduct a simple searceh and find out. "Do we accept them as Armenians? Do they care? They are probably more secure being Armenian speaking Muslim Turks than being starving Armenians of Yerevan.Do they care?Do we care?Can we accept them as Armenians regardles of what relegion they have or have no religion at all.We have subscribed to this cowardly religion for about 1700 years but we have been Armenians for over 4000 years and we will be Armenians long after we shed this stupid religion once again.Who needs religion anyway!!How has religio affected my life?Qould I have been a murderer and a cheat if I were not born in a so called Christian family?Are the Chinese, over a billion of them all murderers and cheats? Por chi kshyaysner! Lietarlly! Our so called Christian brothers in the Yerevan Province are starving. I bet you the Hamshentsis are not."Blessed are the poor", that stupid book says. I say: GET A LIFE!!" Arpa, Most of the modern day Hamshens are living in Krasnodarskiy Kray in Russia and are Christians. If you remember TB brought a material about Hamshens and asked whether or not we are ready to accept them as Armenians, and you should remember what the end of that thread was - no,it seems we cannot accept them as a part of us, at least that was the conclusion and that conclusion may be done whenever you talk to armenians about this problem. Interestingly enough, about pure blood armenians and a nonsense like that one may hear mainly from armenians who have non-armenian heritage - if not their parents(one of them) then grandparents are non-armenians (this is my observation). Nvard, Before you answer the question how much the church did for diaspora you had better ask yourself what was the reason that we became diaspora nation? You know why the folks around you where you are now were always strong and big? Because they tolarated and made their efforts all for the country.

There will be an Armenian Advocacy Conference in D.C. soon as you probably know. What is that and has anybody been there before? Vahan

"hmmm~ Vahan menak mi paymanov vor iyster qaraqakanutyun ches xosalu - te che lav chi lini " Mosjan, Es ays naxadasutyan meg arden mets kagakakanutyun em tesnum Menak en, vor du es lady of grace teknazuneri harzov zbagvum u hla mi hat el $$$ es pahangum, da arden iskakan kagakakanutyun e "uremn -- mi hat chapsert Email ara - BOLOR CHAPSERT !!! namanavand $$$ Pahooooooo - isk Flamingo parum es??? Flamenko menak sirum am nayel, te urishner@ vonz en parum

alpha, I would like to see articles about how much money many of those making demostrations got ? How much they have been paid by the opposition to do so? I don't want to comment this article posted by you since I cannot check the reality of what was written there. Second, in any country that kind of demonstration would be punished by the police I think - they are all illegal. Third, as far as the criminal present regime is concerned, as a citizen I would not like to change one criminal regime by another, what's the point. Who is Demirchyan? In real time people go and vote and having these two candidates there's not all that much you can do. Should one vote for Demirchyan because he is the son of his famous father? Is there anything else about him? Any economic strategy and plan for the country? How about the Artsax issue and military issue in general? If just being the son of the father is the point then I would say that during his fathers' time criminal/mafia got to its maximum blossoming point in republic of armenia. So, is it worth changing one regime by another? I am not a real supporter of the present regime but I don't know about any other choice. And I don't want the country to face another hegashrgum or fast radical changes. Those who are worried about the democracy and citizens' rights in Armenia might create social institutions to protect them. Why do they want a change of the regime if the next one is going to be even worse?

What else did you learn , nedouchka?