Berj

Tornado, Virtually all the countries where the ethnic majority has chosen the way of tolerant multi-ethnic society, have made that decission ONLY after the dominant role and place of that majority in that country's (or international) economic, political and cultural life was obvious, thus securing the constant existence of their culture. I'm not against sythesis of cultures which sometimes has positive resultes, but there is a clear line between synthesis and imposed cultural decadence, which is a result of demography. Please, do not lecture Armenians about multi-ethnicity. Especially I can't tolerate this from the Turkish or the Iranians. I have to repeat myself: if we have population of 10-15 mln who will identify themselves as Armenians we will think about it. Until then, please, give us a brake.

quote:Originally posted by Tornado: Dear Berj ...If the Turks committed genocide to the Armenians, you have a point with Turks, but reacting it to the Iranians (Persian, Azeri, Kurd whatever), Uzbeks, Turkmens, Bosnians, Tatr's, Tajiks, chinese moslems , black moslems etc... is wrong. Tornado, Dear, I just posted an article, which in no way implied that I or Armenians in general react it to all those people. And I can't get what point you were trying to make?

quote:Originally posted by circassian: Berj you are a bit of dinosour aren't you ? my father cooked every sunday too. circassians everywhere knows why we do not have our country & none of us make any bones about it. Those who can do , will. Yeah, I bet the history textbooks in Turkey say: "In ancient Turkey the turkosors were using PCs for communication with outside world and by natural course of the development into a modern society the male representatives of turkosors invented "how to cook Chicken Tikka?", which now is the criterion for the estimation of their modernity." Well, your father was not a Circassian either I guess judging from your "none of us make bones about Circassia". If you do not care about "your" nation do not hint to us about how to serve our's. Thouse who can, are dieing because of Turkey's provocations in Chechnia.

Actaully, the Chechens, the Ingushes, the small number of Circassians who came back to the Cherkessk town in 1980-1990s from Kazakhstan have preserved their culture of mountain people, their language and traditions a lot better than their compatriots anywhere else. At least, I've never heard of a Russian Circassian having inclinations for daily cooking

quote:Originally posted by circassian: Circassian Genocide ? Yes, and if you were a real Circassian, you must have been spending your time debating with Russians, instead of denying somebody else's tragedy.

The same manner Stalin "provided food", "relocated" and "helped" circassians.

quote:Originally posted by dragon: All here are eastern armenian and they do not know much about wwstern armenian writers Dragon, Siamanto, Misak Metsarents, Daniel Varouzhan, Grigor Zohrap...and all other Western Armenian writers are included in the text-book "Armenian Literature" from 6th to 10th grades in the schools of Armenia. [ June 06, 2001: Message edited by: Berj ]

Agree.

Bristol Myers Pharmaceutics, HSBC (both UK), Mannes-Valleks mining (Germany), Hotel Yerevan (Italy).

MJ, You are right! Should the activities and the rights of a sect to spread information be limited to public preaching, public disputes, debates, dialogs?

Let's suppose a very rich person (a no-end-illioner) arrives in America, sets up a religious organisation and starts to buy believers in the most poor state of the US. When he buys out the 90% of the population he formes a national guard unit to protect his believers who give him go ahead to declare independence. What do you think will be the actions of the US govt.?

AZG Daily #103 - 06/06/2001 Diaspora US-ARMENIAN FAILS TO OPEN HOTEL IN VAN Turkish Ashkam newspaper informs that US-Armenian Victor Petoyan tried to open a hotel in Van, but he didn't succeed in it for he didn't have a right of living in van, and, moreover, according to the newspaper, "had a secret thought of naming it "Vardan", which means ‘victory'". The initiative of Victor Petoyan caused big noise in Van, and the license given to him by tourism ministry of Turkey was invalidated. The police gave Petoyan only one day so that the new owner of the hotel vacates it. Petoyan said that he'll apply to court, but Van's merchants insisted in their turn that Petoyan came to Van not to trade or make investments, but for "some other reasons".

TURKMENISTAN CLOSES DOWN ITS EMBASSY IN AZERBAIJAN Snark-Rbk 5 June 2001 YEREVAN Turkmenistan closes down its embassy in Azerbaijan. The decision on closing Turkmenistan's embassy in Azerbaijan was made in the light of growing tension between the two former Soviet republics which is caused by debates for use if oil deposits in the Caspian region. The Turkmenistani side reasons its decision by financial difficulties. However, Turkmenistan will continue promoting bilateral relations between the two states, the statements reads.

quote:Originally posted by circassian: Berj I've got you , kinda , sort of , almost.... So turkey & armenia blocking each other on economic & political spectrum is a mistake for both countries but nevertheless outcome is good & it's worth sustaining because eventually turkish recognition will take place & humanity will take heed from what has happened to armenians in 1915. Is that what you are saying ? No Circassian, I'm saying that if Turkey decides to recognise the Genocide p.e. tomorrow, she will not be able to implement that decission, because it will clear Turkey's path to democracy and will ease tesions in the region. The second thing I'm saying is that if Turkey does not have the gutts to recognise the Genocide, Kurdistan's independence is unavoidable.

Congrats, Harutik... I mean HARUT!

quote:Originally posted by Sulamita: 1. Vor asem chi katarvi 2. Hech, uzum ei imanal ... antsyal aytsis ch@karoghatsa mtnel. 3. Ays u het private mess.-ov kgrem hayeren ... (portsum em haskanal te inchu?) 1.Achkis aytsd katastrofik azdetsutyun a unetsel... 3.Im chapavorich gortsenker, mite chgites vor iskuynevet boghoqneri tarap ktegha H.G. Et dzer es arnum ha?` hamarakalelov pataskhanerd

AZG Daily #102 - 06/05/2001 Karabagh issue RUSSIAN PLAN OF POPULATING SHUSHI WITH AZERIS WILL HURDLE KARABAGH CONFLICT REGULATION Armenia can't accept the idea of dividing Karabagh into communities Karabagh conflict surely has four sides; Armenia and Azerbaijan as conflict sides, and Karabagh and Karabagh's Azerbaijani community- as interested sides. In 1991-92 this format was implemented", - said OSCE Minsk group's Russian co-chairman Nickolay Gribkov to Armenian and Azeri reporters in Minsk on May 31. This announcement surprised and angered Armenian reporters who were elucidating the CIS summit, and Azeris understood its implication as a try to secure Russia's military presence in Azerbaijan and Karabagh. Several times after Key West Peace Talks and on different levels official Moscow hinted on both involving "Karabagh's Azeri community in the negotiations as an interested side", and on populating Shushi with Azerbaijanis. So, about ten days ago in Shushi the same Gribkov said almost the same what he said in Minsk. And before that Russian deputy foreign minister V. Trubnikov announced in Baku that the "issue of returning Shushi to Azeris is important". N. Gribkov is right: negotiations in the format of Armenia and Azerbaijan being conflict sides and Karabagh and the so-called Karabagh's Azeri community as interested sides already took place; but he forgot one important element- they failed ã not registering any results neither in negotiation process, nor in cease-fire issue. We'd like to remind that the memorandum adopted in September 1991 by the mediation of Russian and Kazakhstan presidents Eltsin and Nazarbayev, which presupposed concluding cease-fire and lifting blockade imposed by Azerbaijan, normalization of Armenia-Azerbaijan relations, granting cultural autonomy to Karabagh, was signed by Levon Ter-Petrosian, Mutalibov, Eltsin and Nazarbayev- which was very unfavorable for Karabagh. In the negotiations the Karabagh side (Leonard Petrosian and Robert Kocharian) didn't sign the memorandum- reasoning that Armenia can't accept the idea of divide Karabagh into communities. It is important to pay attention to one thing here- the Karabagh side didn't sign Jeleznovodsk memorandum when Karabagh was isolated by enemy, there was no land communication with Armenia and Azeri forces captured dozens of Armenian villages by the help of Russian weaponry. At present, when Karabaghi army won brilliant victory in the war, official Stepanakert will hardly negotiate with "Karabagh's Azeri community". It is incomprehensible how Russians imagine populating Shushi with Azeris. A question arises: in case of populating Shushi with Azeris who is going to provide physical security of Shushi's Armenians. Or maybe Russians want to divide the city into Armenian and Azerbaijani parts? Today most part of Shushi's 5000 Armenians are those who escaped Sumgayit and Baku slaughters. How can these people live side by side with yesterday's barbarians? Russian plan of populating Shushi with Azeris will only make the regulation of Karabagh conflict more difficult. It is not only unrealistic, but is also full of unpredictable consequences. All this doesn't seem to worry Moscow. The main thing is that the Russian plan is what Aliyev wants. At present circumstances the primary thing for Russia is not the regulation of Karabagh issue, but the buffing up of Russian-Azerbaijani relations with Karabagh issue's speculation. South Caucasus is historically the zone that interests Russia, and Moscow just can't keep this region in the sphere of its influence- having good relations only with one of the region's countries- Armenia. The position of USA is also incomprehensible, which considers South Caucasus a zone of its vital interests. OSCE Minsk group US co-chairman Carey Cavanaugh says that peacekeeping forces must be located along the Karabagh-Azerbaijani contact line. Karabagh-Azerbaijan armed conflict ended seven years ago; there is no division line in Karabagh-Azerbaijani conflict zone between the sides, the military equipment of the sides is not withdrawn from there, and there are no international peace-keeping forces. It is incomprehensible whom Carey Cavanaugh's peacekeeping forces are going to protect. Maybe themselves? And isn't the location of peacekeeping forces going to cause the re-launch of military action? Nowhere in the world can the peacekeeping forces secure peace if the conflict sides don't want it. Russia and USA shall find out between themselves what they really want ã before acting as mediators. In this case maybe it will be easier to find the way of Karabagh conflict regulation. By Tatoul Hagopian ********************************************* Karabagh issue STUPISHIN: THERE WAS NO STATE WITH NAME AZERBAIJAN BEFORE 1918 The ex-ambassador of Russia to Armenia Vladimir Stupishin, talking about Karabagh conflict in a large article published in Russian "Nizavisimaya Gazeta" newspaper, writes that Karabaghi people built their own state ã according to all international laws: "Karabagh people ground their independence from Azerbaijan based on Soviet laws, which were severely violated not by Karabaghis, but by Baku's politologists". "It is not a secret, and Aliyev announced many times about Azerbaijan's territorial claims to Armenia. Armenia doesn't present territorial claims to Azerbaijan, although it can, and on legal basis, demand back Nakhichevan, which was a part of Yerevan province, and was put under guardianship of Azerbaijan by efforts of Bolsheviks and Kemalists. There was not even smell of a state with a name Azerbaijan back at the beginning of the 20-th century",- writes Stupishin. In the opinion of ex-ambassador, the establishment of security in the region is necessary for the West in order to draw Russia out of the region under the name of communication and energy programs. "Why shall we support those programs ã and especially at the expense of our Armenian ally. Pax Americana is not a gift for Russia in South Caucasus- it is going to work against our national and state interests",- says the ex-ambassador. "Did Russian diplomacy become so dull to fully back "small empire" (i.e. Azerbaijan)? The latter received Karabagh from Bolsheviks in 1921. There can be or can not be territorial disputes between Armenia and Azerbaijan, but they can't have any connection with Karabagh",-writes Stupishin, concluding that "Karabagh never belonged to Turks, and it came out of Azerbaijan ã violating neither Turks', nor Lezgis', nor Talishis' and nor any other people's territories, who happened to be in one artificial state union". [ June 05, 2001: Message edited by: Berj ]

Every nation which has the gutts to have state must be nationalistic at some point in its development. You can change the demography by opposing to it with your brains. That's how Israelis have done it. No nation that small can survive...? The first group of Americans which arrived to America filled 1 ship. And at first they were nationalistic, even racist... In 1960-1970 lot of people destined Israel to death. It crashed 4 Arab states simulataniously, is alive and kicking. As long as there is oil in the Middle East, Isreal will exist, though it will be a tough existence.

BTac, Once I read somewhere that we (the humans) are collectors of experience (on the Earth) for something bigger than us which is being fed by the positive energy of that experience we get on the Earth. This thought interested me a lot.

One of the leading Turkish politicians of the recent past said once: "If Armenians want Karabagh, give it to them, give Nakhichevan too, give everything they want, but do not start a fight with them. In 15 years or so these lands will be Azeri".

If we could only collect as much population as Israel has collected. After all that killings, sufferings and hostile surrounding they chose to stand for their land. Good for them! Bravo, I should say. I have yet to hear a Jew say: "I'm not going to Isreal because it's not muti-ethnic.I need more Arabs there".

quote:Originally posted by Aghmug: Man Berj, I was just about convinced God exists... Michael, my friend, After rejecting me for three times, you will become a believer when they crucify me "now, before I change my mind".

quote:Originally posted by Sulamita: Yerazum em Berj ... Inch es yerazum Sulamik jan? "Sur Club"-um chem eghel, inchi? Ete uzum es Hayeren, privat mess.-ov gri.

quote:Originally posted by Kazza: Hey berj. california is all very well and good but do not knock our love and romance section! Kazza, If it remains being a "Love and Romance" section nobody's gonna knock it. Haven't seen much of a romance there lately. Take care.

quote:Originally posted by circassian: I disagree with all due respect. Diamond ? What Diamond ? I respectfully take your disagreement into consideration, but by my right of the citizen of Armenia I will urge my Government to keep the proportions fixed in a way that Armenians always form the dominant majority of the population of Armenia. What diamond? What charm then?