THOTH

Accelerated - your point is well made. Obviously these feelings of loyalty to others like oneself are similar phenomenon. Additionally there is the concept of infalibility and finding fault with others/those "not us". In a sense these constructs are a means of extending family loyalty to a larger group/body. There are tricks to do this - to fool people into believing that it really matters/is important. While it makes sense to a certain degree - as one to some degree buys into the nation one is living in and (usually) wants to see stability and order - and reistance to foriegn hordes bringing it down - or whatever - we can understand national loyalties/patriotism etc. However - since much is based on abstracting the ideals of the family (which is in a sense an extension of the idea of self - self-preservation/self actualization etc) - much of the tricks to make one believe that these things (ones nation) etc - are worth fighting/dieing for (and killing/degrading/harming others for etc) are based on lies/half truths. This is the seed of the coruption - and why nationalism can and ussually/often is taken too far - and is dangerous. (and besides nationalists are ussually a s e h o l e s who aren't much fun at parties...

564312 - your post (beyond the first few lines) is equally gibberish as Arshaks. All your (spiritual?) rules and concepts/animorfication of God (?) are constructs that you have created. Paganism preceeded Christianity, exists to this day, and will undoutably outlast it...so which is more "right"? The Bible, my friend, is incredibly derivitive (both old & new testaments) - yet you claim that all things derive from it... Just because i don't believe as you do gives you no right to claim that I am pathological - or that your beliefs are in any way better then mine. I am entirely secure/comfortable in my beliefs - or lack thereof. I have no desire to seek answers (where none can be had). I have only the child curiosity and wonderment regarding all things known and unknown and revel in discovery - even knowing it is but a fraction of truth (and maybe even more lie). I fail to see the need for a constructed set of beliefs made up from ideas that are clearly incorrect/incomplete. If you need this and are satisfied with this then fine - just don't presume that I am ignorant or in any way lesser then you...

Accelerated - in truth this could more accuratly be considered as tribalism versus nationalism. Nationalism is more properly considered as being feverently patriotic (& beyond) in terms of the virtues of a nation stste in the modern context - not just a more or less racial outlook based on tribal or ethnic affinity. Obviously they are related - but I don't think that they are the same phenomonon.

Arshak - complete bunk.

Accel - Yea I know th EVO - and its a great car - but doesn't do it for me for several reasons. Mostly I just don't trust Mitsubishi (gearboxes & overall build quality). I also actually prefer the WRx styling (particularly the hatch/wagon - though don't know if it will be available in STi version - probably not). And why do you think the AWD is better in the EVO? Hard to believe. And arent the Horsepower and performance numbers pretty much the same? And what is it with the STi release in the States? Whats the delay? Anyone know?

Gamavor - good points MJ - understood

nationalist feeling were particualrly strong in germany in the 19th Century because Germany had only recently actually formed as a nation - and the idea of German nationality (subsuming Prussian, Bavarian, and even more local etc conections) was crucual to this. As such the germans also developed a keen interest in integrating Germanic communities outside their borders leading to some concepts that included the idea of pushing other nationalities off of their lands. These type of views were perhaps suggested to the Turks (I think some may suggest that this was certainly so). I'm not so sure that the Turks didn't come up with this concept elsewhere however - as the Russians had been practicing such (a great deal) prior to any German attempts... And MJ - I think the Germans were anti-Armenian basically only to appease the Turks. Prior to WWI Turkey was by no means a clear German vassal - far from it. In fact Britian held much more sway. Germany knew that it must appease the Turks in as many ways as possible to ensure their cooperation. Being anti-Armenian was not something that would likely come back at them (particualrly when their enemies - the Russians - were seen as being so very pro-Armenian).

Azat - regardless of your very valid points regarding statistics and specific application to this argument of women versus men comparative pay - there does exist a gap. Some of this is - of course - due to the fact of men being in the work force longer (in greater #s & %) - thus being present in greater numbers at more senior positions - but some of this also stems from discrimanatory practices where men have rationalized to pay women less for the same jobs. I have not only seen this in action - but my wife has recently won a lawsuit to this effect! (So hah!). So I know - very well - from personal experience as well as my own observations otherwise. And in fact - my wife was not selected for 4 different positions in which she was able to very easily prove (a joke really) that she was clearly the most qualified/had the most experience/better ratings/most output and in fact was rated higher by the selection commitees. But when the selector (man) picked - in each case he picked someone who was being championed (by other men) in management. These were their buddies - and in one case there were outside "favors" involved etc. So you see - this is the real world - this is how its done. (on example of a very many). Oh and very sorry about your being unemployed. I imagine that for the most part it really sucks.

Gamavor - you are essentially correct - however during the war (WWI) there were divergent German attitudes towards Armenians. German missionaries saw Armenians as fellow Christians and sympathized with their plight. Likewise the Berlin-Bagdad railway company - which relied on Armenian labor and management (accounting & white collar stuff) acted to protect Armenians who worked for it (even after they were taken away) and lobbied the German and Turkish Governments against the Genocide policy/enactment. The German military (and Government) was absoluty anti-Armenian - basically because the Turks were - and the Germans wanted to appease the turks in any way they could. Whether they actually believed the Armenians to be a threat is somewhat debatable. They took this position officially - but unofficial accounts seem to differ from this view.

quote:Originally posted by MJ:As far as ASALA is concerned, I think by know you should have known what do I think about THOSE clowns.[/QB]agreed

Don Q - out to save the world! LOL. Actually all kidding aside - get the Bastard! For his nasty attitude alone. One question though - just who owns the copyright (in the U.S.)? - I have this on my wall at home as a poster - I wonder if the Church bookstore where I bought it (or where they got it) has any copyright etc? In any event you should call him back and ask him if he has ever heard of ASALA - Armenians may be nice & friendly & all - but you do not wish to occur their wrath ...tell him that you could make trouble for him...funy - he threatened to kill you - LOL.

quote:Originally posted by Stormy: So yeah - I imagine it is a collectors item of some sort - though again - we have already paid dearly for it...

quote:Originally posted by HOVSEP KASHISHIAN:Thoth keep that card it could endup as a collecters item and might worth somthing espcialy if tamy had all her makeup on Yeah - I've still got it (maybe I can scan it for everyone's amusement one day - don't know if may scanner will acuratly show the various shades of purple Tammy Faye uses on her face though...). Inside the card , my Grandmother even has written out the full names and birthdays of Jim, Tammy Faye and there 3 (?) kids... etc - an expensive "keepsake" this has been for me...

Arshak - wake up! First of all - a great many of these "healings" are completley fake. In fact I have a good friend who used to believe as you. She actually went on one of these TV shows and was healed! Of what I don't rememnber - and neither does she - she just was getting into the exitement of it all (and has admited that she totally faked the whole thing). So I say they should take the Hovsep challenge! All that being said I do think that one's mind can heal one's body in many respects/instances and certain trance/ritual and even assistance provided by others can be very helpful in channeling this energy - this is why traditional witch doctors were so effective for such a long time. (hint - it has really little or nothing to do with Christ or any particular [non-evident] divinity...) And please don't go there about the money. These guys take in millions and millions (and do not help anyone but themselves). I have been to (Jerry Lee Lewis's couusin...forgot his name just now..you know the guy who like to play with himself with prostitutes...) complex in Louisiana and seen all the Porches and Mercedes...and my family has personally "suffered" from these guys as a significant portion of our (not-insignificant) inheritence was squandered away by my one (non-Armenian) Grandmother who sent many many thousands of dollars to Jim & Tammy Faye...and all I have to show for it is one Christmass card with their (grotesque) smiling faces on it....

I must confess I don't read Ara anymore either. Once I was (and still am I guess) a staunch defender of his - even if I think he is often as wrong as he is right (but who isn't?). I agree with the repetativeness accusation however (and many or the other critisisms of him...still "mostly harmless") - but more to the point (for me) is that I do not feel he is speaking to me (as an assimilated Armenian who doesn't exhibit the traits/attitudes he knocks against - etc). So to some degree what he is saying has only secondary relevance to me (at best). I still think that a great deal of what he says is worthwhile and wish that those he rails against would/could take heed (but they won't...they will continue to live their myth, exhibit lack of foresight (and hindsight) and act not in accordance to the principals of the common good...aka according to Nathan Bridger etc)...still, we shouldn't overstate his "role" ...while I think he does serve a useful (and noble) purpose (fighting the "good fight" and all...) - I also think that Armenians even having someone who can and does say the things he does is a testement in and of itself (vis a vis other communities/nationalities where it would be unheard of to hear such critisim) - But I think Armenians need more in terms of innovated commited leadership, people with revolutionary ideas (and even just general awareness/aknowledgement of the problems) and most importantly people who can and will take positive action (for the good of the community/nation as a whole)...(they too exsist...but only in pockets it seems...)

quote:Originally posted by Loreley:Somedays I wish I could be a child all over again. It is scary to think about getting older (I know that I am still very young), but then it makes you think of how much we should enjoy every moment of our lives because we are not going to live forever. Here here - thats the crux of it isn't it now... Happy New year everyone!

quote:Originally posted by aycemnik:EZ! I would like to know why there are German anti- Armenians? Why would Germans hate us? Why were Germans "against" the Jews? Its not quite being against Armenians though - its just accepting this concept of self-interested/counter to the majority behaviors foriegn elements (in this case Armenians being such in the context of the Turkish majority in the Ottoman Empire) that justify animosity against the minority group. Kaiser is saying that these academics have blindly accepted this (Armenians role) as fact - to a degree justifying Ottoman Turkish negative attitudes towards Armenians (as somehow some kind of bloodsuckers). And I assume he is saying that this assessment is incorrect. I haven't read Kaiser's Analysis (this particualr book) but I look foreword to it as he often has made some good points in the past.

quote:Originally posted by Rubo: Yet (to my credit I think) - understanding (perhaps/some of) why I believe that my peak was age 7 - I have not lost my "child" (in many respects) - I continue to have a fresh perspective, immagination and openess - regarding many/most things and in general - and perhaps (hopefully) I never will lose this... Added on edit: I also have always felt that - for the most part - my experiences in school ran counter to my develpment as a thinking person. I constantly battled teachers (except for a few really open/non-threatened ones who believed strongly in me) and the system...I am a high school drop out BTW....LOL [ December 31, 2002, 07:22 AM: Message edited by: THOTH ]

Rubo - I applaud you for your honesty and for revealing insites to your personality likes/dislikes, family stuff (your son and chess etc) - all very refreshing. I may not agree with all of your positions on things - but I must say that you are a poster whom I think posts from the heart without ulterior motive and I almost always look foreward to your posts. Continue to surprise us. As for your proposal - sounds great - but its something that I don't think you can force. And for various reasons may not work for everyone. I think though, that after a number of posts we can get a pretty good understanding of where most everyone is coming from (on certain limited levels - though not just one dimensional). For the most part i find this satisfactory. What could be nice is if there are circumstances where some can actually meet. In some forums I belong to we call these "off-lines". A Hye forum Off line would prove very interesting I think - to say the least...

Azat - I don't have time to fully answer now - but I disagree.

Korn - I think most of the oil is in the south. And getting rid of Hussein may not be quite as easy as it sounds (But perhaps easier now that certain legal restictions have been removed...)

quote:Originally posted by Azat:The main point that I am trying to make is that a white manager/ceo/owner/whoever MAJORITY of the time is going to hire the most qualified person for the job. This is a true statement - but it is a subjective assessment. The person hiring will - the majority of the time hire someone that they are comfortable with /think they understand/and who they think are like them etc (ie white male perhaps...[unless practically forced otherwise])...and this may factor in a great deal toward any hiring decision - as a subjective factor feeding ones idea of who is most qualified. I have witnessed this inumerable times... Another point was made about not hiring a women with children because of potential (time) comitments outside of work (for her family) - well this is a common misperception - believe me. But it falls down flat when faced with the evidence. 20+ years ago I was doing some investigative work for a Congressional Commitee (House or Senate Armed Services - I have forgotten which) who had got wind of a plan by the US Army to seperate (fire) all single parents (though it was women that they were really after) with children (can you imagine?) based on such (sexist/speculative) claims as yours. Yes, the Army had a study (disavowed once I cut it to shreds) that claimed these women missed too much time and were unreliable etc etc ...in fact I was able to prove the opposite. On average, these parents (women and men) were more responsible, missed less time, and performed better then the young (frequently drunk or otherwise unavailable - etc etc) single men...think about it - this job was/is all they have to feed their family with - etc. So don't jump to conclusions (though I know that many do concerning just these sort of issues). Another funny thing was that it turned out that (20 years ago, and perhaps still today...don't know) there were many more single fathers then mothers in the Army (not surprising) - and the Army was planning to cut all single parents - turned out they would really have fouled things up...(and were just so without a clue in general...) Another point made by someone earlier - women being more nurturing or more fit to be THE parent - etc - BS. Sure some of this is perhaps undeniable (& biological) - but if you are an inteligent person you should realize that generalizations just don't cut it. People are individuals and defy such. I can give a great many examples of men more nurturing (or whatever - better at being a parent) then a great many women. I am a great parent BTW - and often have and do take care of my children (alone) - sometimes for weeks at a time (my wife works and travels a lot). So I dispute this claim as a generalization that cannot be used to make such proclimations as only women should stay home and do the parenting etc. In fact though i think there are many things that women do quite a bit better then men - why aren't you (& others) so quick to push aside the men who are more frequently doing these jobs in society? And unfortunatly - most anyone can become a parent - there is no qualifying exam or such - and there are many (of both sexes) that really suck at it. And data shows that women are not compensated (on average) nearly the same as men for comparable work (accross all job sectors)....just why is this one may wonder? (a great many factors for this - but I will leave that for your immagination as this post is already quite long enough). So - wouldn't you just rather that I just post "I disagree"? Much less painful/time consuming - no?

I disagree.

They might be better off investigating if (Orthodox) Christianity is bad for ones (nations, other nations etc) health....

Super comment MosJan - exactly the point.