THOTH

quote:Originally posted by Sasun: quote:Originally posted by Sasun: quote:Originally posted by Sasun: quote:Originally posted by Sasun:

I guess suplementing. However I do not regard us as "Turkish" per se - though certainly (effectively) Ottoman. Sorry for the confusion.

MJ - I think the relation is more than just geographic. As the Babylonian exile forever (greatly & deterministically) influenced the Jews the subjugation of the Armenian nation under the Turks has had profound cultural impact. My family had very much shown this influence but I see it in most (but perhaps not all) Armenian I meet in one form or another. Likewise I know many Turks - mostly here in the States - but also those I have met in Turkey - and I can't help but think - they are a lot like us. Obviously the cultural diffusion went both ways - but there can also be no doubt that the ottoman culture was predominate during the period of empire and it profoundly affected all Armenains living within it - some (urban/Western Anatolian) much more so then others of course. And the culute of Turkey today is a direct decendent of that Ottoman legacy...as are we...

You are correct Stormy - Saudi Arabia is a recent (post WW1) invention named after the Ibn Saud family/dynasty. Though it may depend on the definition of "nation" if this is still a correct answer...don't know?

axel - While socialism (?) and (OK) communisim may be ideologies that caold be described as Atheistic this is not necissarly so. And Nazism was certainly Christian based - though admidetly more in a cult fashion (but this is endemic to the Christian cult - offshoot cults...heresy abounds...etc). Anyways - Zionists for instance are socialists (and even could be acuratly described as communists - at least those who espouse the Kibbutz life - at the center of the Zionist ideal. Zionists are not Atheists. Socialism is too varied to be considered as with or without theistic views. Communism too - but OK - lets suppose you are refering to the Soviet Union (Lenin/Stalin) and China (Mao). I would argue that Christian belief was replaced by the personality cult - arguably a theistic perspective. And obviously their brands of communism are/wer abhorrent and anti-human. Like Hitler thses men and their philosophys and resulting actions and those of their "believers" are unique phenomenon. And even in fact if they were not believers in "God" and if their official policies espoused Atheism - they certainly all came out of the Christian/Western tradition and basically replaced one set of contrived beliefs with another. The list of atrocities commited in the name of religion (and Christianity in specific) is quite a long one. Some examples being the inquisition, persecution of jews in Spain, Hugonaughts in France, Crusades, and the invasion of the Americas and genocide of the indigenous peoples, the African slave trade...And of course in modern times we see the Israli/Jewish - Palestinian/Arab/Muslim dispute, Catholics versus Protestants in Northern Ireland...and religious intolerance in general...

Hmmm...what if "God" was Turkish? Hows that? - LOL...

quote:Originally posted by hyebruin: ...and ultimately the goal of organized religion is to make people realize that they themselves do NOT need the church, the priests...etc. The true mission of religion is (or at least should be!) to empower people and let them know that they THEMSELVES are the source of that empowerment... Why is it that in reality it is just the opposit of this?

Sasun/hyebruin - all this is very wel and nice (and I am thrilled that you are at least familiar with Daoism and some of its comcepts) - but I must say this has nothing to do with Christianity and an anthropomorphic, demanding "God" in any way.

hyebruin - no sorry - I think I will stay out of reach of those pod spores... And FYI - when in High School I went through a brief (but OK enjoyable) flirtation with "Young Life" (even went to a week long camp in upstate NY and another shorter one on the coast...great fun BTW) - do you know of what it is I am refering? I could never quite (honestly) say I was born again (so I didn't - regardless of the pressure to do so). I'm not really a follower by nature... And no fear - not at all. Distrust - well - yes...our grandparents were quite trusting now weren't they... There is nothing that Christianity can offer me. If I said yesIi accept I would only be lying - what good is that? And I certainly see no compelling reason to believe Christianity over any other doctrine. And my education and insight are sufficient for me to understand that these various doctines are extremely short lived and temporal in the scheme of things and ultimatly meaningless. As we evolve as a species - and beyond - ever more rapidly now - these religions of our primitive past will evoke primarily horror and disbelief... [ January 17, 2003, 05:46 PM: Message edited by: THOTH ]

quote:Originally posted by Sasun: quote:Oh and BTW - one who is one with the Dao already lives in your ocean. THOTH, it is your ocean too But somehow, I don't think you live in the ocean yet Again - how mistaken you are...

quote:Originally posted by Sasun: quote:Originally posted by Sasun: All of this supposition is just that. And I don't find it terribly useful. It is no different then ancient peoples developing mythologies to explain their unknowns. In fact it is much lesss tied to nature and reality then the allegorical and nature explaining dieties and associated actions & stories.... If you were to truly consider these things I am sure you would reach the same conclusions as I have...(though perhaps it is not just within you to do so...perhaps you haven't got what it takes - you must rely on an outside source to tell you how it is [maybe that is/will be me? eh? - LOL)- to reassure you that what you have been led to believe is in fact truth (nix that - I say the opposite - nothing that you have been led to nbelieve as true in fact is true...)- regardless of facts or lack thereof...as you have previously stated...) [ January 17, 2003, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: THOTH ]

Oh and BTW - one who is one with the Dao already lives in your ocean. Its a wonder certainly - but it requires nothing more then being one with your/the Dao. Is that really so difficult? Well apparently it is for the vast numbers of people in the world - and one of the primary reasons - conflicting and hostile religious dogma - and all other petty uppity exclusivisitic thinking where one person or group puts itself above another. Where humans put themselves above all other life - all other processes...

quote:Originally posted by Sasun:THOTH, if you believe in Daoism then what kind of Atheist are you? Daoism has a lot in common with other religions, including Christianity. I disagree. Daoism has very little (fundementally) in common with Christianity. And for the record I don't think Christianity is all bad. My good friend and one time boss was/is a staunch charismatic Christian. I once told him that I would have basically nothing whatsoever against Christians and Christianity if it weren't for Christians taking the Bible so seriously. I feel the same concerning Muslims regarding the Koran, and all "belivers" regarding the infalibility and divinity (if thats a correct usage of the word) of theior "sacred" books, beliefs & dogma. My suggestion - lighten up - live life (its the only one you wil ever have! IMHO). To believe/follow/live the Dao (or what have you) - one need not project any assumptions, one need not fashion any rules or guidelines, one need not alter their self (only be theri "natural" self, one need not believe in any diety/dieties/supernatural/world (as in spirit/heaven/hell etc) beyond our own...etc etc The Dao is not judgemental. It does not impose morality beyond what should be "naturally" evident. (BTW guilt & shame etc are not exclusively Christian concepts...though there is quite [excessivly] much tied up within it IMO). Morality is inate. At least the core of it (golden rule type stuff...do unto others etc etc)...it requires no outside imposition. To know is not to know. How much more of a lie then can "faith" be?

quote:Originally posted by Sasun:Hyebruin, thank you! It is very refreshing. Yes, we are droplets of the ocean. The ocean is the absolute, free, magnificant and eternal. The ocean is the ultimate goal of all droplets. Without the ocean, we the droplets are lost and vanished. With the ocean, we can all be absolutely free, infinite and immortal. Because when we join the ocean, we become one with it, we become as big as the ocean! Cheers No - you only think that it is refreshing. It only looks refreshing. But you are not percieving what lies beneath the depths. you are not considering that if you take a big gulp you will only become thirstier. And if you rely on the ocaen as the source for your drinking water you shall soon perish...

MJ - yes - unfourtunatly this is the reality. I find all of this talk about believing in Santa Claus even after the parents admit it was them supplying the presents all along to be quite amusing. Or if (benevolent - or otherwise I supose) Aliens show up - understanding a great deal more about the nature of reality then we do - and they have no conception of an anthropomorphic (or for them perhaps insectoid or gelatanous or such) "God" or beings (like us) needing to be "saved" from ficticious post-life punishments - etc etc The preceeding dicussion is just filled with nonsensical Christian platitudes IMO...and the concepts of the religion - needing to defer to some supposed whim of an unseen outside force that supposedly loves us but puts us through all kinds of crap, forces us to deny our nature, to think of ourselves as bad/evil/sinful, etc - that makes us suffer from disease, sickness, Genocide and other horrible nastiness - on the promiss of "life" in a spiritual realm that no one can quite seem to accuratly depict or conceive - well no thanks! I don't buy it. Look - its fine to believe in compassion for others, caring for the sick & poor etc, living frugally (these are what you basically refer to when you consider Jesus & his/(Pauls) teachings as what you follow - no? I mean who can argue with this sort of thing? However in my experience most "so-called" Christians give a lot of lip service to such and basically lead a life no more moral, frugal, or helping of others/filled with love etc as I or most non-believers do. (I mean isn't a fish symbol on the back of a $100,000 Mercedes just a bit, I don't know - grotesque?) And also - there is a category that I call "the angry Christian" that just seems upset at everyone and everything (who is different from the way they are)...(don't tell me you have never met one...or several). Once I had a run in with a Christian co-worker who was putting printouts on everyones desk calling for a boycott of Holloween and claiming that to let my kids dres up and trick or treat was amounting to consorting with the devil. Next month he was passing out pamplets that Thanksgiving must be recognized as a Christian holiday that non-Christians had no business being involved in. etc etc And the nasty things he said about other religions (basically anyone who does not accept Christ is following the devil...and Oh BTW most who follow Christian sects not his own are also doomed to hell - so to bad Armenian Orthodox et al)... All religions can't be right can they? (and hyebruin - I'm not so sure that you are a Christian. These concepts of "we are God - and part of a vast conciesness etc etc - are not at all consistent with any Christian belief that I am aware of. In fact it is much closer to what i believe - and that is called Daoism. You may want to look into it sometime - it may provide you with what you are looking for - or at least no need to make it up - as I never read such as you are claiming in the Bible...) In fact - IMO - all religions are wrong. And Axel or Sasun or whoever - I don't need to proove anything - I have never tried to proove anything. I am just very confident that all the various flim flam being proposed by others is way off the mark (its so obvious to me that I really can't imagine a thinking person believing otherwise...but Oh well...nothing new here)

I had earlier mentioned some boks regarding the influence of bacteria on our genetics and evolution - but I did not have the titles of one of the books...well I remembered - so here goes. The book "Vitals" by Gred Bear is fiction - but (like his other book "Darwins Radio") is based on the very latest in the science of Genetics and the study of bacteria and othe rmicrobes (and their relationship to human [and other multi-celled creature] evolution - in fact our dependence on such). Vitals follows the story of a scientist researching aging (and trying to find a way for people to live forever) - when he uncovers the role of bacteria in our genetics - specifically in regads to aging - but with even much more of a role - even to include very specific behavior control. The conspiracy theorists will have a field day with this one - as it ties in the masons and other illiminate type of groups...great stuff. Darwins Radio concerns the idea that evolution may not be gradual but programmed to occur rapidly (by certain types of bacteria) when specific conditions are met. It looks at (and speculates) the relationship between us and Neantertals and between us and the human species to follow...also great stuff and extremely thought provoking - even if the premiss my be somewhat speculative. Here are some Amazon links for further info - Vitals: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/03 45423348/qid=1042731150/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/103-8222900-8245428?v=glance&s=books://http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...=glance&s=books://http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...=glance&s=books://http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...=glance&s=books://http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...=glance&s=books://http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...=glance&s=books://http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...=glance&s=books Darwins Radio: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/03 45423348/qid=1042731150/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/103-8222900-8245428?v=glance&s=books://http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...=glance&s=books://http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...=glance&s=books://http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...=glance&s=books://http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...=glance&s=books://http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...=glance&s=books://http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...=glance&s=books And out soon - Darwins Children! http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...=glance&s=books [ January 16, 2003, 07:39 AM: Message edited by: THOTH ]

axel - I'm trying to give you some time so that perhaps it will sink in - but aparently not. So lets review a bit here: Agnostic - and agnostic cannot be a beliver in "God". By definition an Agnostic thinks that there is insufficient proof to say one way or another if "God" does or does not exist. (they are awaitng further "proof") If an Agnostic were to have faith in (the exisitance of) "God" then they would have made a decision to accept that "God" exists - to believe - based on what is known. If one says "I am agnostic" they are claiming (essentially) that they do not believe in "God" - that they have not been sufficiently swayed towards such belief. You cannot have faith if you do not believe - no?

hyebruin - Somehow it always seems Ok for "believers" to make generic (and specific) claims about non-believers such as you have done - "they all are insecure" or "they all have anger" etc and question their integrity (prone to steal things - Sasun or someone indicated...etc) - and make assumptions such as - well they are wrong to not believe etc etc - but when a non-believer so much as questions belief in religious dogma etc and perhaps questions the sanity, intelect, need for reassurance beyond themselves (or at least saying that they feel no need for these things, makes no sense to them why they [or anyone really] should believe such - and my there are some pretty wild/out there stories & ideas that these peole accept as factual (spirits among us for instance...etc) - then of course it is the nasty non-believer on the attack. I reject this. Just the same I am sorry that you feel I am being mean or such. I have nothing against you personally - you seem like a nice person.

Say it ain't so. I used to eat there all of the time. In fact I used to live 2 blocks from there...(but it is perhaps Panos pastry or Ara's I miss the most...)

quote:Originally posted by Sasun: quote:I can just say that non-believers are missing the most important thing that one could possibly have in life. Call it a subjective opinion, that's my stance.Yes - that is opinion. I think that you are wasting your time. That is my opinion. But thats OK - as long as you aren't hurting anyone - and f you really need to believe in these (totally unprovable/unkown & contradictory) things outside of yourself - well what can I say - I hope that it helps. However, there is nothing in this belief for me - beyond perhaps many of the general principals and such - already internalized - common to most all belief systems - that itemize some of the do's and don'ts etc...OK - most of them have some usefulness - as long as not taken too far or misapplied...and they do not need a god concept for them to be valid. In fact Thomas Jefferson completly re-wrote the Bible taking "God" out of it. Think about it. I still don't believe that most of it is true - even without the big guy. But certainly many of the lessons are good/relevant. quote:Originally posted by Sasun: If this were true then there would be no hope. It would meen that we are all part of a sick game. What good would rules be if man was fundementally evil. Why bother? Do we comply with "God's" laws only out of fear? Again - what good is that? So like your false concept of "God" in general - there is really no realistic possibility of such a condition being true. (and if it was how could you love/obey such a twisted being - that toys with us so for his pleasure?) And if "God" is a being as outlined in the Bible - there is more than enough evidence of his evil and petty nature to disprove this contention. In fact - what additional torture he now heaps upon mankind - he has made us all evil - yet he demands love and goodnes from us (etc) - my what a paradox he has created - and to what end - to satisfy some petty whim? Why does this god need our love so much? Can't we just get him a blow up doll?

Hyebruin - I am not at all an angry person (or sad or depressed or in pain or uneasy or whatever). If you ever would meet me in person you would have no doubt of this. None at all. Very much the opposite in fact. Neither am I bitter, nor do I feel abandoned (by "God" or anyone). What I don't like is when people assume I have some kind of problem because I am not Christian. Why is it Ok for Christians to attempt to convert/convince me or whatever - that their beliefs are true and that I am somehow mistaken or lacking - but when I stste my beliefs I am a troubled person or such. In fact - if anything - the opposite is true. And you ask - how can i be so sure in my beliefs. Well - many reasons. I think I have explained most of them. But let me say one thing - I have a degree in Anthropology and much of my studies concerned religion, superstition and myth - from various cultures. Well - they can't all be true can they? What makes Christianity any better then any others? (no need to answer that). And in fact I see so much that is out and out wrong with Christian beleif/doctine - particualr in the ways it goes against man's nature and against nature. I also find many fundemental concepts quite distasteful. Additionally I have studied much of the origins of the Jewsih and Christian religions - enough to see where concepts derived from and where iddeas were taken from and why. It is clearly a religion made by man - as all are. And there is absolutly no basis fr any belief in the supernatural - only aknowledgement that there may be things beyond what we do and can know. So why is your version any more legitimate than anyone elses? Just because some set of books has been complied - using many other sources and with many contradicitons and a history and controversy regarding its assembly. etc etc - well I am no fool. Go ahead and believe in fairy tales for all I care. But please do not suppose it is I who have the problem. And further I find it absolutly ludicrous that you are accusing me of non-originality in my thinking because I am recommending some books to read (to open your mind up). How many times has someone suggested I read the Bible (done that) or quoted from it for "answers" and such - Ha! BTW - I have many Christian friends (and a relative or two...). Some of these are people who actually practice/live it versus just preach - and these are very few I think. They have my utmost respect. Somehow we get along quite well. We tolerate each other and I cannot recall any instance of anger or bad feelings between us. I also have a great many Atheist (or near so) friends (and relatives/family) - and they are good people too - without any anger, insecurity or complexes - at least not that is visible to me - etc. I think you need to get out more.

quote:Originally posted by axel:I was referring to Sip's dictionary definition of an agnostic being someone who believes the existence of God cannot be either proved or disproved. Me too. If one does not believe 100% in the validity of the diety - how can one have faith? Is just throwing ones lot in where you feel the odds might favor you (considering consequences of being wrong) legitimate? (particularly if one really does not buy into the proof of such a beings existance)...

quote:Originally posted by Azat:[QBNeighbors described the family as friendly, devoutly religious and the last people they would expect to see visited by violence. "To live in this type of neighborhood, that's not what mattered to them," said Andre Haroutonian, 26, a relative. "It was the humbleness of their hearts. They were true Christians. This is a real tragedy."[/QB] Not to make lite of this sensless and unfourtunate tragedy - but these lines just struck me - considering soem recent exchanges we have been having on another thread...

quote:Originally posted by hyebruin:So Bruin, how did YOU get in? Well, I'm not one to brag...but, I've got what they want, and then some [/QB] LOL - I take it that you are refering to money....

By definition an Agnostic is without faith. If an Agnostic had faith he would not be Agnostic. LOL