Gor-Gor

What is the point of this? If you do not know enough about Western Armenian, please do not speak about it with authority. «Որտե՞ղ ես ծնած» (actually «Ու՞ր ծնած ես» or «Ու՞ր ծներ ես», colloquially) asked to a male in Western Armenian would not be confusing because "to give birth" is signaled only by the phrase «ծնունդ տալ». You clearly have lots of knowledge about Eastern Armenian and Soviet orthography -- but please, do refrain from speaking authoritatively on issues pertaining to Western Armenian. You are only hurting your credibility.

I will state that I ABHOR Soviet orthography for many reasons (including the fact that the changes were absolutely unnecessary and that it hides the history of the language), but the one thing that absolutely unnerves me the most is the rationalizations that proponents of Soviet orthography present. Point #2 represents one of those rationalizations... INCORRECT. The sounds of «յու» and «իւ» are different! The difference is readily apparent to my ear, and I imagine to the ears of all Western Armenians (and anyone who was raised having learned classical orthography). Soviet orthography is an abomination to the Armenian language.

In addition to several errors (including the spelling of "meghavor" in Western Armenian and your reason why Western Armenians learn the names of the letters), your writings use a syntax (choice of words) which is highly biased in favor of Soviet orthography -- the reason for which eludes me, since you peruse classical orthography in your Armenian writings.

Թող ռուսերը այդ արտայայտութիւնը իրենք իրենց պահեն։

Tsezi hartsoom me, Hovhannes. Ays gayki echeroon vra, took oragan pazmativ barperootyoonner ge krek hayerenov, okdakordelov mer aypoopene. Yes arten meg nakhatasootyoon (mer aypoopene okdakordzelov) krelen ge zzvim. Shad jamanag g'arne. Artyok took kaghdnik me oonik? My question is: It takes so long to TYPE with Armenian letters! How do you do it?!

For the record, I do not know of any US law school that offers a degree in law other than a plain and simple, general Juris Doctor degree. What I mean is, you can't have a "major" in international law. Everyone graduates with the same exact degree -- the JD. Yes, you can take International Law classes, join an International Law student group, etc, but you will graduate with a JD, plain and simple. If you would like to specialize in a certain area of the law after you graduate, you can enter an LLM program (usually a year or two) for International Law, of which there are many across the country. Most lawyers never get an LLM, but they can be useful if you really want to specialize in a certain area. Or, if you do not want to practice law, then you could do a masters and then a PhD. I hope I have cleared things up.

Not sure if many of you know this, but this video is actually a parody of a Beirut-based Armenian radio program called "Hayerene Jisht Khosink." These Beirutsi guys did a hell of an impersonation of the program!

Perhaps I should have added "vorosh chapov" after "dagavin." Believe you me, I am well aware of the eventual demise of the Armenian language -- both dialects -- in the Western world. With that said, there do exist American-born Armenians who speak, read, and write Western Armenian at or above the Middle-Eastern level. I am one of them.

Վստահ եղէք, Պարոն Յովհաննէս, թէ արեւմտահայ բարբառը տակաւին ողջ եւ կենդանի է ամերիկահայ նոր սերունդին մէջ։

There are many things I want to reply to and haven't had the chance to, as I was out of town. But one thing I definitely want to say something about is the heightened use of Armenian language amongst the new generation of Armenians in Montreal, in comparison with the new generation of Armenians in other North American (or South American, or European) communities. It has been my hypothesis that the reason that Canadian (and specifically Montreal/Quebec) Armenians more readily and more ably speak Armenian is because of the different language culture that exists in Canada/Quebec. First, the people in Quebec know first-hand what it means to fight for the right to speak and use a minority language, and therefore are more tolerant, and even encourage using minority languages. Second, English is not as pervasive in Canada/Quebec as it is in the US. There are 2 official languages in Canada, and just that mere fact plays a psychological role in the minds of young Armenians. Not everything is in English, and so you do not feel the social pressure to speak in English all the time. The fact that there are 2 official languages opens your mind to the idea that English (or French) does not rule all.

According to the Armenian Church of Aleppo figures, about 40,000 Armenians from Syria and Lebanon immigrated to Soviet Armenia in 1946. (Source: http://www.periotem.com/modules.php?op=mod...mp;newlang=arm) I'm pretty sure there was a smaller wave of Western Armenian immigration to Soviet Armenia a few years before or after. Also, there were Western Armenians from Europe that also left for Soviet Armenia. So the 40,000 figure is not exhaustive. I would say upwards of half a million Armenians in RoA today are descendants of Western Armenians (however, many of them left in the 1990s...)

I really do not mean to sound rude, but all of these figures you are all providing are grossly exaggerated! 600,000 in France?! Come on. It's closer to half that. 6 million for the entire Diaspora (according to Wikipedia). Now that's wishful thinking.

I just found some official figures.... Aleppo: 50,000 Source: http://www.periotem.com/modules.php?op=mod...&pageid=741 Syria: 65,000 - 70,000. That's the entire country folks. Source: http://www.periotem.com/modules.php?op=mod...xt&pageid=6

Those numbers are highly exaggerated. I have relatives in Aleppo and I have visited several times. My uncles are well-connected with the church and ARF. They have confirmed that there are 40,000 Armenians in Aleppo today (this is an official church figure). A few years ago, the Armenian Church in Aleppo (Perio Tem) even organized a PR push, encouraging Armenian families to have more children, because the community is shrinking. I know, because my grandmother was given a medal for having had 6 children. At its height, the Armenian community in Lebanon numbered 200,000. It is well known that roughly half of the community fled, leaving about 100,000 in the country. Official figures are always higher, especially in the case of Lebanon -- for political reasons.

The answer to this question depends on your definition of "Western Armenian." For example, a significant percentage of Armenians in Armenia today have roots in Western Armenia and the Western Armenian diasporan communities of Beirut and Aleppo. Also, many Western Armenians in the diaspora have totally assimilated - it depends on who you ask whether they are to be considered Armenian. It has often been stated that there were 500,000 survivors of the Genocide -- those survivors went to Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Armenia, USA, Canada, France, South America. If you consider population growth, then that number has since increased. But if you consider assimilation, then it has decreased. et cetera... It's a difficult question. Here are some figures that are quite reliable. Armenians in Istanbul today: 50,000 Armenians in Syria today: 50,000 Armenians in Lebanon today: 100,000 So we know for sure that there are at least 200,000 Western Armenians. It's difficult to get accurate numbers for the US and Europe, for the reasons stated above.

Actually, there is. It has not gained much momentum, but there is a movement. There have been several newspaper articles about it lately, even one where the writer wrote his article using classical orthography in an attempt to show that it would be easy to make the switch.

Dave: The reason is that the Armenian Apostolic Church (including the Mother Church in Armenia) has maintained the classical orthography. So when you buy khatchkars from Armenia with the "Hayr Mer" on them, and notice that it is written with classical orthography, this is the reason -- not because they are trying to sell the khatchkars to Diasporans.

That article -- and the orthography with which it was written -- made me a very happy man. Thank you.

Hi folks, I'm here to ask for some help in locating material relating to the laws on language in Armenia. I am going to be writing a legal paper on Armenia's use of the law to protect and preserve the Armenian language. I know that in 2003 (or 2004) a law was passed that fined those retail establishments that did not use Armenian script on their storefronts. I would love to know more about this. I have only read about it in an ArmeniaNow article, available at http://www.armenianow.com/archive/2004/200...ongue/index.htm. Does anyone have any more info about this, especially the precise language of that law? Apparently it is called the "Our Home, Our Language" law. I have also found some provisions regarding language. That is available at: http://www.parliament.am/legislation.php?s...93&lang=eng. I'd also be interested in any information on whether Western Armenian has any legal status, whether it is considered to be "Armenian" by the law. In other words, if business is conducted in Western Armenian, or if a legal document is written in Western Armenian, if that will be acceptable. ANY INFORMATION WILL BE APPRECIATED! News articles, statutes, commentaries -- anything. Thank you!

While what Arpa said is true, I don't think he answered your question. I think you are confusing 2 separate things. The spelling is a completely different issue from the pronunciation. As you know, Western Armenian and Eastern Armenian differ from each other in several INDEPENDENT respects: Spelling (orthography), Pronunciation, Grammar, and to some extent Vocabulary. Western Armenians have kept the original spelling system, whereas Eastern Armenians (with the exception of those in Iran) use a modified spelling system. It was mandated by the Soviet government, and it attempts to simplify the spelling system. (In my opinion, while it does simplify spelling rules, it makes it more difficult to glean the origin of words and thus robs the language of its history.) Only those Armenians who were under Soviet rule adopted these changes, which is why all Western Armenians and Barsgahays have kept the original spelling. The spelling issue is completely different from the pronunciation issue. While the spelling was changed overnight and within fixed borders (ie, within the Soviet Union), the pronunciation changed gradually over a long period of time and not necessarily in any specific area. I don't think there is any conclusive reason WHY the pronunciation changed, but logic would dictate that the it occurred after several hundred years of contact with the Turkish language. In fact, if you listen to modern Turkish, the SOUNDS sound just like Western Armenian. Even the accent and so forth sound like Western Armenian. The further west Armenians lived across the Anatolian plain, the more the pronunciation had changed. And in the utmost west, in Bolis/Istanbul, that is where the pronunciation had completely changed. In the middle-west (like Arpa mentioned, Marash, Musa Ler, etc), not all of the consonants had changed pronunciations. But anyway, about 100 years ago, a "standard" Western Armenian dialect was CREATED from the Bolis dialect, and this standard dialect was taught across Western Armenia. This is how the pronunciation change was really cemented. The Western Armenian that is spoken today is based, in most part, on the pronunciation and grammar of the Bolis dialect. The regional dialects of Western Armenia, which have almost all been extinct, did not necessarily share the same grammar and pronunication as the Bolis dialect. Note also that in old Western Armenian folk songs, you will notice a grammar that is like a mixture between Eastern and Western. It is helpful to think of the old Armenian regional pronunciations and grammars as a continuum stretching from Bolis in the west to Yerevan and Artsakh to the east, with variations and mixtures in between. There are further questions that I have not been able to answer. For instance, why did the sound of "Բ" change at all? Why couldn't it have remained a "B" sound? I understand that "Պ" changed to "B" since in the original pronunciation, Պ already has an in-between B/P sound, so it's easy to flip that to a plain B sound. But why didn't "Բ" remain B, "Պ" become B, and "Փ" remain P, as it did? Why such a drastic change for Բ? The same goes for Գ, Դ, Ձ, and Ջ.

The buildings on the left are part of the North Avenue project.

Have any of you ever realized that some Armenians from Turkey are assimilated and do not even speak Armenian? But even the ones who do speak Armenian, you have to understand that whether you like it or not, Turkey is their home country. Just like Armenians from Beirut and Aleppo long for Lebanon and Syria, they speak so highly of those countries and listen to Arabic music, etc, so are the Armenians from Turkey. They listen to Turkish music because that is what they grew up with.

Dave: It was very, very sad for me to read that statistic. I had always held out hope, that even if Armenians in the rest of the world assimilated, the Armenians in Lebanon and Syria would not. It was a shock for me to discover that this wasn't true. (My family is from Syria, by the way. I did visit Beirut though, in 2001.) I guess the more westernized a country becomes, the more quickly Armenians there will assimilate. The US, South America, Russia, and Europe are hopeless for us. Even Turkey (Istanbul is practically European). I guess we can add Lebanon to that list now, too. I guess Syria and Iran are our only Diasporan communities with real prospects of longevity.

Hello! Can you give more information? What city in Turkey? Do you have any first names? There are many, many people with the Yeretzian family name here in Los Angeles.

Dave: There is absolutely no way that there are 300,000 Armenians in Syria and Lebanon. Half of the Armenians in Lebanon have left. And more than half of the Armenians in Syria have fled. The 40,000 - 50,000 figure for Syria is very accurate. I have relatives there, and they tell me themselves -- "Gardzes te hay che mnatsadz Haleb..." A few years ago, the church even had a "badvo yerego" in Aleppo in honor of women who have had lots of children. I know, because my grandmother was one of the honorees. They were honoring those women to encourage young Armenian women in Aleppo today to form large families, because the population has dwindled. Aleppo can't even support a daily newspaper. Lebanon is not so bad. Of course it is not the way it was before. In the 1970s, there were 21,000 children attending Armenian schools in Lebanon. Today, it is 9,000. And get this: According to the Armenian church's records, in 1997, there were 250 weddings. FORTY percent were mixed marriages. (Source: http://www.agbu.org/agbunews/display.asp?A_ID=57) In addition to that AGBU article, my figures are supported by an enyclopedia published in Yerevan in 2003. It's called "Hay Spiurk," and it gives information of every Armenian community in the world, by country. I was doing research at LA's Central Library, and I came across it. While I did not copy the population figures, I do remember that the book stated Lebanon's Armenian population at 120,000 and Syria's at 40-50,000. As for half a million in Los Angeles. According to the US Census, there are 138,015 Armenian language speakers in Los Angeles County (this includes Hollywood, Valley, Glendale, Pasadena, etc). I understand there are many Armenians who do not speak Armenian. But not that many. Besides, they may be Armenian by blood (or half, or quarter), but they may not even consider themselves Armenian. I can't imagine that there are more than 300,000 Armenians in Los Angeles (and that is being generous, I think). Arpa: What's wrong with church figures, when there are no official ones? They obviously don't count only those Armenians who attend church, or pay dues -- otherwise their figure for Istanbul would be much, much lower than 60,000, don't you agree? Holy Martyrs Church in Encino estimates there are 20,000 Armenians in the San Fernando Valley. Does that church have 20,000 dues-paying members? No. Do all 20,000 give allegiance to that church (or do some go to St. Peter's)? The fact is, the Diasporan church figures are probably accurate, because the churches need accurate figures to know just what is the population that they are serving. I think that church figures probably OVERESTIMATE the real figures, because they have an interest in inflating the numbers -- the higher the number of Armenians in any given area, the more clout and power the Armenian church will have in that area.