Gor-Gor

You might as well be typing in Chinese. Մոռցի՛ր այլեւս...յոյս չկայ։

I should have disclaimed by post by: "If, in fact, Western Armenian's consonant shift was due in part to its close proximity with and inferiority (in numbers) to Turkish, then..." It's always been a hypothesis of mine that WA's pronunciation scheme was a result of being around Turks (and maybe others), who didn't have the so-called "middle sounds" (ejective), but this never explained why բ completely changed its sound. However, now that I have come to learn that ejective sounds are not native to Armenian (and perhaps were never even used by Western Armenians), my hypothesis doesn't have much basis...

Oh no I realize that -- I'm just saying it's not impossible to discern a difference between the 2 sounds as they are pronounced today in Armenia and Iran. (It was in response to a comment made by Johannes, I believe, that he couldn't hear the difference.)

So, WA pronunciation was affected by Turkish. SO WHAT! Instead of seeing it as a bad thing, why don't you see the positive side? We lived SIDE BY SIDE with the Turks for 600 years, and the most they could take away from our language was involuntarily causing a change in the pronunciation of 10 consonants and the addition of Turkish words to our slang. We do not speak Turkish today, we do not practice Islam. We speak Armenian, with some Turkish influences. SO WHAT! That influence is part of our history, it is part of what makes us Western Armenian. They tried to kill us, they tried to take away our language, they CUT OUR TONGUES for speaking our language -- but we still speak Armenian! That the Turkish influence on Western Armenian is limited to the pronunciation of some consonants is a testament to the strength and vitality of the Armenian spirit. I don't embrace WA pronunciation BECAUSE of its Turkish influence. I embrace it DESPITE of its Turkish influence. I embrace it because it shows our history and our resilience. So, hate me.

Thank you!

Aman Der Asdvadz, Arpa!! I don't know how many times I can repeat this. You never seem to actually want to listen -- you just keep spewing out the same things, over and over and over. WE ALL AGREE THAT WESTERN ARMENIAN HAS AN ALTERED PRONUNCIATION SYSTEM. WE ALL AGREE. WE ALL AGREE. WE ALL AGREE! There. WE *ALSO* ALL AGREE THAT NO ONE THINKS MESROB MASHDOTS INTENDED THE ARMENIAN ALPHABET TO SOUND LIKE "AYP PEN KIM TA." So, please -- stop repeating this! It's getting so old. WE ALL KNOW AND ACKNOWLEDGE THIS! Now, having said that, there are 2 remaining issues: 1) Do Western Armenians have an obligation to change their pronunciation of the 10 consonants? The answer to this is No. The way WA is pronounced today is a result of years, decades, centuries of evolution in the language. It was a natural progression, especially in the Western Ottoman Empire (ie, Constantinople). That today's Western Armenians are taught to pronounce their language in the way WA intellectuals of the 1800s pronounced it is not a problem. You will hate me for saying this, but this system of pronunciation is our heritage. For good or for bad, we inherited this pronunciation system. Another issue is that even if Western Armenians decided to change the system of pronunciation, I truly believe it would be too difficult to do so. Also, this would create even more problems. The dialect itself is dying as it is -- it doesn't need any more help to die a quicker death. (Imagine, some Western Armenians speak in a certain way, others in another way -- it would create more divisions and help make the dialect even more useless.) 2) Second, Eastern Armenian's current pronunciation system is not perfect either. So, assuming Western Armenians wanted to change their pronunciation system, to what system would they change it? --- And for the record, as a Western Armenian, I myself do hear the difference between the փ and պ, as they are pronounced in modern Eastern Armenian. After some practice and guidance from Hayastantsi friends, I have been able to pronounce the պ as well, although I can't pronounce it in quick conversation. (This applies also to the other sets of consonants as well.)

What law school do you attend, Anonymouse? I'm a 3L at Loyola...

Vras ches grnar kaletsnel!

Artyok "avelin" inche bidi ellar? Arti bashdonagan arevmdahayereni parabashare aytkan ge darperi arti bashdonagan arevelehayereni parabasharen? Loorch hartsoom mn e. Yete rooseren parer chkordzadzvin (orinag` corruptsia, yev ayln) yev Ardakin Kordzeri Nakhararootyoone ella "Ardakin Kordzots Nakhararootyoon," arten isg yes ge pavararvim. Isg "khoselatsev" eselov inch esel g'oozeik, artyok? Antsnelov khosnagin...Apkariane halebtsi e ooremn? Vsdah zarmigners janchnaloo en zink. Anoone inch e?

Glad we're on the same page!

How odd that you bring this up! My mom and her sisters can speak with the Dikranagerd dialect, as their father did not speak standard WA (he never went to school). I also know an Arab woman who was raised partly by Dikranagerd-dialect-speaking Armenians, and so the only Armenian she knows is the Dikranagerd dialect -- it's a treat to witness. And today, of all days, my mom made me listen to a CD of songs sung in the Dikranagerd dialect. I told her "Inch hianali pan. Yerevagayeh 100-150 dari arach, Dikranagerdi mech ays lezvov ge khosein. Ov kider te ayskan dari yedk, Amerigayi mech mayr oo zavag me ayt nouyn parparov yerkeroo mdig bidi enein." I wouldn't call the Dikranagerd dialect healthy -- it's on its last legs, of course. But it hasn't died quite yet. I would also add to your list of existing WA dialects that of Kessab, Syria. They still use that dialect in Kessab (I went there 6 years ago) -- although the once-Armenian town has been overtaken with Muslims.

I'm very well aware of the sound shift that consonants have gone through in spoken Western Armenian, which is what your response to Armenak's post was alluding to. However, I was lost as to how that related to his post. It just seemed like you wanted to, once again, try to show that Western Armenian is lesser than Eastern Armenian -- just like you do at any chance you get, even when it is irrelevant and unnecessary to bring it up.

Thanks for the info. I'm not sure I'd classify her as "an intellectual in Armenia" though since she was a repatriate, and especially if her mother tongue in Greece was the Western dialect. Notwithstanding the foregoing, I am sure there are many intellectuals in Armenia who consider Western Armenian the one and only equal to Eastern Armenian. I would just like to see this view spread, and embraced, and publicized. What does this have to do with Armenak's post?

Right, because that's the same.

I don't see what's so horrible about wanting my native dialect to be preserved and propogated. I feel very passionately about this because it is because of the Genocide that Western Armenian was relegated to the 4 corners of the globe. It is not the official language of any state, and so it has no protection from extinction. What's wrong with me wanting to see that it continues to live? I have nothing nothing nothing NOTHING against Eastern Armenian. I read it every day (online news sites) and I understand it well. I can even speak it, if compelled. I see Armenians as one ethnicity, one people. But that does not stop me from wanting to see the Western Armenian dialect -- with its rich heritage -- continue to live.

How is that relevant to this discussion?

Forget even 200 years ago? What about today? There are about 1 million speakers of Western Armenian today. Like I said, it is the #2 dialect behind standard Eastern Armenian -- even today. Please refrain from calling it the "Halebtsi-Beirutsi" dialect. Its proper name is Standard Western Armenian, as used by the Catholicosate of The Great House of Cilicia, its schools and its churches. Don't relegate Western Armenian's status to that of a peasant, village dialect.

Western Armenian is not a regional dialect. It is the second most widely spoken dialect of Armenian. It is one of the 2 main dialects of Armenian. End of story. BTW: There is no such thing as Halebtsi Western Armenian. That is simply Standard Western Armenian. Unless you meant the nearby Kessabtsi dialect.

Yes I know what պոռնիկացում or պոռնիկութիւն means. I understand where you are coming from, however, I see this from another angle. For me, one of my greatest dreams is to see Western Armenian immortalized and perpetuated. It does not look likely to be done anywhere in the Diaspora, and so I would like to see institutions in Armenia take on the task. This news tells me there is hope for my dream's realization. Second, this news VALIDATES me and the dialect that I speak. It shuts up naysayers who call Western Armenian a vulgar, village dialect. Now, on Armenia's national public television, Western Armenian is being put on the same level as Eastern Armenian.

BRAVO, C1! http://www.asbarez.com/20070501_103.htm [Asbarez does not use Unicode font, so I can't copy & paste the article here -- but I'll offer an English translation] "The "Haylur" program of the Armenian Public TV satellite channel has begun broadcasting the news in Western Armenian, as had already been relayed to us by the channel's news division principal, Haroutioun Haroutiounian. The news in Western Armenian is being broadcast twice a day, at midnight and 7:30am (Armenian time). This corresponds to 12 noon and 7:30pm for viewers on the west coast of the USA." I don't have C1, but I want to subscribe just to show my support. Has anyone seen it? I wonder if the person reading the news in WA is actually a repatriate Western Armenian. This is a more symbolic step than anything else. But it is such a big deal for someone like me, who longs validation from the Republic of Armenia. I'm sure some of the Western Armenians on here know what I mean when I say that. One more step in strengthening the ties between Armenia and the Old Diaspora. Bravo! Also: Looking at the times it will be broadcast, it's obvious it is a direct appeal to Diaspora viewers. ----- edit ----- More info: http://www.blogrel.com/2007/04/25/about-time-haylur-spyurk/ ----- edit 2 ----- Here's a capture of the website. Can you tell I'm excited? http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v176/karlarrec1/AsbarezDailyNewspaper51200761404-1.jpg

I've been reading this board long enough to have surmised that SAS is, in fact, a nice enough person. However, that does not preclude me from saying that he approaches the issue of Eastern/Western Armenian from a position of assumed superiority. He personally insulted me a few days ago with his Russian "himar/dancer" comment (a comment I presume he would not have made had I written my original post in a dialect other than Western Armenian), and it has only gotten worse from then. He has made fun of Western Armenian consonant pronunciation* (even when THAT WAS NEVER THE SALIENT ISSUE) and has insinuated that he knows Armenian better than I do. It is clear from what he writes and the way he writes it that he views Western Armenian as a lower form than Eastern Armenian. That, in addition to his personal attacks, is something I refuse to take lightly. * A side note about Western Armenian consonant pronunciation. This was never an issue in this discussion, but since SAS has brought it up, I will offer my view of it. I admit, with no reservations, that the 10 consonant changes that have been made in Western Armenian pronunciation are deviations, and that the way those consonants are pronounced in Eastern Armenian are the original pronunciations. However, as I have stated, languages change and evolve. Languages develop dialects. I should point out here that the consonant changes in Western Armenian were a natural progression (UNLIKE Soviet orthography, which was forced on Armenians in Armenia). It's important to keep that in mind. What point is there to poke fun at Western Armenian consonant pronunciation?

You disgust me with your snobby attitude towards Western Armenian.

Your Mashdots argument is a fallacy. We do not know how many of our sounds were pronounced many centuries ago; that is correct. Languages change and evolve, of course. However, that DOES NOT MEAN that our next step should be to ALTER the language's orthography to correspond to how we pronounce those sounds today. THAT IS THE PROBLEM. Doing so cheapens the language and robs it of its history. As for this: Բայց ելնելով այսօրվա արտասանությունից, ընդունված է... Excuse me? Accepted by whom? Oh yes, I know. You mean to say "Because Armenians in Armenia pronounce it a certain way, then that is the accepted way."

Դժբախտաբար, այդ «շատ բարբառներ»ու շարքին չենք գտներ արեւմտահայերէնը։ Տե՛ս՝ Հայոց Լեզուի Նոր Բառարան, Պէյրութ 1992։

SAS: Tuk artyok pakhdavorutyune unetsadz ek lsadz ellaloo arevmdahayerene gam barsgahayerene, iprev gentani lezuner? Te ayo, shad hsdag bidi ellar tsezi ays nuite. Yergoo parparnern al «իւ» tsayne nuyn gerbov ge hnchen. Yev ayt hnchume ge nmani voch «ու»-ի yev voch al «յու»-ի կամ «եու»-ի.