Gor-Gor

We're almost on the same page. I agree that one should be able to switch between literate and colloquial language. What the issue is, is the relegation of the use of "gor" to that of a colloqualism. I'm not sure that it is. I readily stipulate that using suffixes such as "-neh" instead of the word "yerp" or "yete" (eg, "Yertamneh" instead of "Yete yertam") is a colloqualism that has no place in literate Armenian. The case of "gor" is different. I've never been convinced that its rightful place is outside that of literate Armenian. It is useful, and there is no readily available alternative, at least not one that provides as much utility.

Frankly, comparing EA and WA tenses has been a challenge that has eluded me for many years. The tenses and forms do not exactly correspond - but I am not knowledgable enough about EA to explain exactly how. So, I can't give WA equivalents to those EA forms! Give me the English versions and I'll translate. lol

"Gu kalei" can mean both "I was walking" and "I would walk" -- hence the immense popularity of the "gor" form... I try my best not to use "gor" when communicating with Armenians who are not familiar with WA. I think the point that Shahan (and I) have been trying to make is that "gor" has become so engrained in all Western Armenians, and that truly does serve a legitimate purpose in the way that we express ourselves, that we feel very awkward when we do not use "gor" -- as if we are not fully expressing ourselves. Every time I speak without using "gor" (to a priest, school principal, etc), I feel like my tenses are not coming out right. Imagine having to convey "I am walking" by being forced to say "I walk" only. It's a challenge on the mind.

Gu kalem = I walk Bidi kalem = I will walk Kalelou bidi ellam = I will be walking No "gor" here.

I'm not sure if I used the correct name for the tense, but here are 2 examples: Kaletsi = I walked Gu kalei = I would walk Gu kalei gor = I was walking Katsi = I went [katsi equals the EA gnatsi] G'ertai = I would go G'ertai gor = I was going In standard written WA, the second form in each example is used the convey the meanings of both the second and the third forms. But in spoken Armenian, the "gor" is used to distinguish the continuous form from the other.

Ձեր այս կարճ գրածները կարդալէս ետք արդէն ինծի կը թուի թէ Ջաւախքի բարբառը թերեւս աւելի հասկանալի է (հնչիւնաբանութիւն, բայերու խոնարհում [հոլովում?], գոյականներու «է» քան «ից» խոհարհումը, եւլն.) սփիւրքի արեւմտահայութեան ականջին, քան Երեւանի լեզուն։ Թուիքս արդեօք կը կարծէ՞ք թէ ճիշդ է։ Կը ներէք՝ առաջին անգամ ըլլալով է որ կը տեղեկանամ Ջաւախքի բարբառի մասին։

I'm not sure what you mean. Where is the irony? What other contexts is it used in (besides past imperfect)? And what does that have to do with anything? I'm not sure what you would like me to translate that into (as it is not WA). In Western Armenian, "na" becomes "an" and "kayle" becomes "kale." In English, it would be "He [or she] is walking." I remain confused.

This argument makes no sense; it is circular. That's like saying "If we remove the '-ing' formation from English, then we will not need it anymore. Therefore, we should remove it." Further, I don't understand what it is exactly that you mean when you a say a language does or does not "need" to distinguish between the present and present continuous forms. It is not a matter of necessity. English can also get rid of "-ing" and express present continuous by adding modifying words near the verb (eg, "I am walking" becomes "I walk now") -- and hence, according to you, English will not longer "need" the "-ing" suffix. Does this mean we should do away with "-ing"? No, it's a matter of the ability to express yourself easily. Western Armenians have created/adapted a special form to be able to express the present continuous form. Eastern Armenian has not. Big deal. Much in the same way that Eastern Armenian has a created/adapted seventh case for nouns (the locative "oom" case), whereas Western Armenians have to use additional words (such as "mech" or "vra") to convey the same meaning.

Us = Deaf Western Armenians I'm glad you enjoyed the "walla." I knew you would.

I can't imagine what gave you that impression? We have all been in agreement of the facts that I had stipulated in my post. As for the 4 "remaining issues," you and I have different answers about all four of them, I am sure.

Hey, you almost went a whole day without insulting us! Ուալլա պրաւօ! Tomorrow's a new day anyhow...

Fascinating!!! Thank you! I had no idea Javakhk's dialect had Western Armenian origins! It has similarities with the dialect of Dikranagerd.

Everyone agrees that Western Armenian has changed the way certain consonants are pronounced. Everyone also agrees that Eastern Armenian has as well, to a lesser degree. The issues remaining are: 1) Was Western Armenian's consonant-shift "bad"? 2) If so, should Western Armenians change the way they pronounce the consonants today? 3) If so, is it possible for Western Armenians to change the way they pronounce the consonants today? 4) If so, to what pronunciation system should Western Armenians revert? The way Eastern Armenians pronounce the letters today? Or the way Mesrob Mashdots intended the letters to be pronounced? You see, it is #4 which is most troubling a barrier for those who preach that Western Armenians should change the way they pronounce 10 consonants. The consonant shift in Western Armenian was natural and unavoidable, taking into consideration the circumstances of the time. Just as Eastern Armenian pronunciation evolved, so did Western Armenian pronunciation. [Arpa and Johaness - Yes, I am WELL AWARE that what I am calling "Western Armenian" is based on the dialect of Constantinople. The fact that standardized Western Armenian is based heavily on that dialect was a matter of necessity and circumstance. So be it.]

Harut: I'm an amateur when it comes to the Giumri dialect. Is there no "oom" conjugation in the dialect? I mean to say, in standard EA, the present tense is denoted with "oom" conjugation. It seems like the present tense in the Giumri dialect is denoted with a "ge" prefix to the verb, like standard WA. Is this correct?

edit

Exactly how does that quote of mine show that I am mixing the issues of phonology and orthography? I never mentioned or alluded to phonology -- my post was about orthography only. You are mistaken. The rest of your post warrants no response as you failed to respond to my points.

Հայաստանցին այսօր անուանած է մեր ուղղագրութիւնը նաեւ՝ դասական ուղղագրութիւն։ Դասի պէս արագ մը թող սորվին այս ուղղագրութիւնը։

HUH? First, I asked a serious question. I assume your answer to my question is "No." Second, what are you talking about? What do you mean "how one writes?" We (EA and WA) all write the same way. Are you telling me that just because you transliterate գարուն as "garun" and not "karun" or Beirut as "Բէյրութ" not "Պէյրութ" (on an internet message board, no less) that you are somehow upholding the true virtues of Saint Mesrob Mashdots? All the while you speak Western Armenian in the same "Turkified" manner all the rest of us Western Armenians do? Dear God...

Հարցում մը՝ բոլոր այն արեւմտահայերուն, որոնք կ՚առաջարկեն թէ արդի արեւմտահայը անցնի «մեսրոպեան» հնչիւնաբանութեան... Դուք՝ Ձեր առօրեայ կեանքի ընթացքին, արդեօք արեւմտահայերէնը կը խօսիք «մեսրոպե՞ան» հնչիւնաբանութիւնը օգտագործելով։ Եթէ «այո», թող տուէք յաւելեալ հարցումներ ուղղարկել Ձեզի։

To be precise, the orthography (spelling) used by Armenians in Armenia is NOT "Eastern Armenian spelling." It was a spelling system forced upon and adopted by Soviet Armenia. As such, Eastern Armenians in Iran do not use that spelling system. Let's call it Soviet orthography, and not Eastern Armenian orthography.

Maybe "կը գրեմ կը" evolved into "կը գրեմ կոր" because the former sounds ridiculous and is confusing. The latter makes a clear distinction between the present and present-continuous tenses, whereas the former seems sloppy.

^ Shahan, while I agree with most everything you stated, we should point out (before he does) that Arpa is Western Armenian by birth. This doesn't make any difference, since you can be prejudiced and biased against your own group -- which describes Arpa to a tee. I just wanted to point this out before Arpa used this point in his reply to try to not respond to the substance of your post (not that he will, anyway).

Well if you hadn't already convinced me of the superiority of Soviet orthography, you just did! The passage of one law will change all of that. Oh, and I'm sure all Diasporans appreciate your characterization of them as "foreigners." Lovely.

Step 1: Please look up the definition of "defunct." Step 2: Learn to use the word properly. In other words, the original orthography is alive and well all around the world, even in Armenia (see the Armenian Apostolic Church).

I'm not sure what you mean. Vartahoor, I believe, is Barsgahay, and therefore his mother dialect is Eastern Armenian. However, like all Barsgahays, he uses the original orthography. Barsgahays and Western Armenians use all the same spelling rules, with the exception of "ու" and "ւ." For instance, Barsgahays would spell the word գտնուիլ as գտնւիլ. I'm not 100% sure about this, but I believe I'm right. Anyway, I'm going off on a tangent... Vartahoor sometimes also spells according to the abomination that is Soviet orthography. I'm not sure why he does so.