Gor-Gor

Thanks for the reply. I'm quite annoyed right now as I stayed at Ani Plaza while I was there (Abovian/Sayat Nova) and I never saw this. grrr. Anoushik: What's overdone is that HORRENDOUS gigantic castle/palace entertainment complex being built just outside the city. That made me sad. (There were pictures of it in AIM some months ago..)

Haha ooops. Oh the difficulties we face in trying to figure out how to spell words. Half the time in Armenian class it was "vor t-ov guh kren ays paruh?" or "bzdig p, gam medz p?" haha Feel sorry for us.

Have any of you Angelenos ever eaten at Sasoon? In my (biased) opinion, it's the best in the city for Armenian/Middle Eastern food. Okay okay, it's my aunt's restaurant. lol But it's so good! I've had Zankou, and it is absolutely nothing in comparison to Sasoon. Honestly. The shawarma (tarna) sandwich at Zankou is a joke. It's in the Valley on Ventura Blvd. (in Tarzana)

Wow - it's really nice! It almost looks like it belongs on the Vegas Strip. There's so many things we didn't get to see in Yerevan...Everyday we went on different excursions outside the city. grrr. But thanks a lot for the info. How far is this from the corner of Abovian/Sayat Nova? Oh, and is it always turned on? Because it was quite depressing to see the water fountains in the parks in the city center turned off most of the time. You know which ones, the one with 2650 (or however many) fountains to celebrate Yerevan's birthday. Even at Sasoontsi Tavit's statue (sorry, can't bring myself to say David just yet lol), there was no water when I went to see it.

I found this picture while searching for pictures of new developments in Yerevan. http://www.armeniantourinfo.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10002/5.22.jpg Does anyone know what part of the city this is in? Is it new? Is it always working? As for all the other pictures I saw -- my goodness, how the city has changed since I was there in 2000!! I cannot wait to go back.

I'll add some of my stories. I went to Armenia with my classmates in May 2000. One afternoon, a group of us (maybe 8-10) were walking up Apovian St. in central Yerevan after dining at Diamond Pizza. We decided that we wanted some ice cream. And so, we started looking for a store that sold ice cream. We were walking and walking, being the loud teenagers that we were, speaking our mix of English and WA, when we finally saw a store that had a "Tamara" sticker on its window. So we ran toward it -- only to realize that the store had already closed. But then, a lady (a beautiful and elegant middle-aged lady) opened the door and told us to come inside. We said "che, hok che, arten pagadz ek tser khanootuh." To which she replied something along the lines of "nonsense, you are our guests, come inside." She passed out ice cream bars to all of us -- and then wouldn't accept our money. Armenian hospitality is unmatched. Another story. On another day, a group of us were walking around the Hanrabedootyan Hrabarag. It was probably the first or second day that we had been in Armenia, and we were still in awe that we were finally in our homeland. And so we began singing songs -- Mer Hayrenik, Kedashen, Dzaghgatsor, anything we could think of. Needless to say, we got so many weird looks from passersby -- but it's one of my fondest memories of Armenia. This one is not quite as heartwarming. We took the subway to -- I don't even know where. Anyway, we got off, and started walking. There were 2 guys, one a teenager (15-17) and the other a bit younger. I don't remember what we were speaking, but it obviously wasn't EA. They started yelling "Duk hay chek!" And stuff like "why are you here?" We got into quite a heated argument with them and left. But that was one of the few (perhaps the only) times that I encountered any negativity. And about the subway. I had my camcorder with me. And I started recording as were going down the escalators to the train platform. All of a sudden the security guard started yelling at us and when I didn't turn around, he came running after me and took the recorder from my hands. I was so clueless because I could hardly understand what he was saying! He made us go outside and record over what I had recorded inside the station. lol It was pretty funny, and he started to laugh towards the end because we were harmless tourists.

Yerani Glendale-tsineroon... I used to get H1 on our satellite service -- but it was taken off a few months afterwards. It was so great. Granted, I couldn't understand much of the news, but I loved watching the music videos. Armine Nahapetyan My favorite. Also, Hasmik Karapetyan, Emmy, Karine Movsisyan, Lilit Karapetyan, Sirusho, Hayuhiner, Maya Margaryan, Aida Sargisyan. I'm a sucker for female armo-pop.

Is it common for Turkish last names to end in -yan? Turkey's candidate is: Nur Gumusdograyan http://www.missworld.tv/bio/bio.sps?iBiographyID=11521

You guys are my own little keraganootyoon book. Nairi: A big "oooohhhhh, I get it now" for you. Verchin asdijan shnorhagal em. lol (oh how wrong that is - i just love the "verchin asdijan" expression!)

Thanks for all your input! For some reason, I always thought EA had a special verb form to distinguish between "I talk" and "I am talking" -- but I guess not. We should all adopt WA's "gor." Makes speech much less confusing. I come to ye with another question. The famous case of the verb "go." Armenian seems to give us as much fun as the English go/went variations. I'll do the WA ones, and again, you guys can englighten me with EA. I go = Yes g'ertam You go = Toon g'ertas He/she goes = An g'erta(y) We go = Menk g'ertank You (plural) go = Took g'ertak They go = Anonk g'ertan I went = Yes katsi You went = Toon katsir He/She went = An knats We went = Menk katsink You (plural) went = Took katsik They went = Anonk katsink The reason I ask this is because I never really hear any EA speakers use the verb "yertal." It's used sometimes, but I get the feeling it is used for a slightly different context. When is "yertal" used in EA? Oh, and another question. WA has some "irregular" verbs, that instead of taking "gu" in front for their present tense, they take "goo." We were taught that this was a vestige of Krapar (grabar). I wanted to know if EA uses these as well, in any form. I cry = Yes goo lam I come = Yes goo kam I give = Yes goo dam

My cousin in Syria is named Peggy. The poor girl -- her name becomes Biki in Arabic. No P, no "eh" sound, and no G.

oh, i'll never get that darn dialect right, i swear...methinks i'll stick to mine. inch dkhretsootsich yev hoozich asbarezov g'spaghis...

Hey cool - thanks! I never would have guessed that. Any takers on a translation of the lyrics to a type of Armenian I can understand?

Sulamita jan, duk vortegh ek ashkhatum? (wooo - i sound almost like a native!!)

Okay, so lately I've been really interested in the origins and meanings of some of our joghovrtayin songs. Two that have really caught my attention are "Yar Im Gorani" and "Yellek Yertank." The first one, I'm sure everyone knows. I can't really figure out the lyrics, so I won't try topost them...but you know, the one that goes "Yar im gorani, yar im gorani, yar im gorani, vay vay, msho gorani..." Well, I've been wondering which dialect this song was written in, and how old it is. Further, what is it about?? lol I'm thinking "Yar Im Gorani" is "My Lost Love." But then the rest, I simply can't make out. Perhaps the boy was a farmer "Msho" = "Mshagel" and also the lyrics say something about "tsoren e tsanel" ...or is "Msho" in reference to the city "Moosh"? Anyway, the other song is perhaps slightly less popular. I heard it on a recent Armenian pop compilation from Armenia. It is sung by Aida Sargsyan. She has titled it "Yellek Yertank," but I'm not sure if this is the real title. Also, I think she may have fused more than one song. The chorus is the popular "Hye dodig, dodig, dodig..." and the rest I can't understand. lol Here is a part of the lyrics. I want to know, again, the dialect it's written in. Clearly it's a WA dialect -- but can someone help me figure out which one? Is it Sasoon? And I think it's great that contemporary Armenian singers are singing in these old dialects. Here we go (in Western transliterations...) Verse 1: "Yellek yertank mur sareroon, dzaghguneroon desootyan Momer varenk, soorp Marootoon muzi hasni oknootyan Yellek yertank....[something..] hye dodig, dodig, dodig..." [Okay, the "mur" is obviously "mer" but she sings "mur." Same with "muzi" (mezi). and "dzaghguhneroon" (dzaghigneroon), etc -- which dialect does this? Changes "e" and perhaps other sounds to "uh"?] Verse 2: "Yellank katsink menk Maratoo ookhd oo bayman gabeloo Momer varenk, menk irar hed Jrakalouys Maratoo" Then there's a part towards the end... "Sasno dgha, shad khorod es, Maratoon ______?? Ov vor g'ooze, ov vor chooze Buhdi khaghank mayrokeh" [Then the most fascinating part. The same verse is repeated, but with "g'ooze" changed to "g'oozi" and "chooze" to "choozi." What's more, in WA, the "correct" way to say "chooze" is "choozer." This is all so fascinating to me...The "Sasno dgha" part makes me think this is written in Sasoontsi dialect?] "Ookhdavor em, ookhdatsi, hye dodig, dodig, dodig..." From what I can gather from the lyrics, the song is about a group of villagers making a yearly (?) pilgrimage to a church (St. Maratoo) in the local mountains. And they complain about their feet hurting, being tired. But in the end, they rejoice by repeating "ookhdavor em, ookhdatsi..." I love it. This culture is so rich....

Well I bet none of you thought this thread would reappear nearly 4 years later... As part of my ongoing obsession with dialects -- could someone comment on the seeming mix of the two major dialects here? We have g'erta/k'erta, goo dam/koo tam, but also some EA verb usage as well. Also, at the end of the 2nd verse -- the word "dard." This is a Turkish noun meaning "worry" or "hok/hog" (armenian). Is this written in some dead dialect that mixes the two major dialects?

I think Louise-Simone Manougian deserves a big "bravo." I was watching the Telethon, and towards the end, the "khosnags" (errr, I forgot the English word! lol) were literally begging the audience to call in and make pledges so that the total would reach the golden $10m mark before 8pm. Why? Because Mrs. Manougian had pledged that if the total reaches $10m, she would donate $1m, in addition to the $1m she'd already donated. Sure enough, with less than a half hour to go, the total was at $9,990,000 -- the Ramgavar party announced it would bump its donation an extra $10,000. And voila, the total reached $10m, and seconds later was bumped up to $11m. Quite a dramatic half hour it was! A real nail-biter. And a big "vartskernit gadar" to ArmeniaFund, to the volunteers, and the Armenians of America. I was so proud that night...

Thank you for help!! Khosetsa and khosetsi?? Hmmm... And khose for the command form? I'd have thought it was khosa - or maybe that's the slang form??

Speaking of songs --- can anyone help me name the song that Nune sang? It was a joghovrtayin song (or so my mom said) including phrases that went something like "Spuirkahayer, yerp bidi veratarnak mayr hayasdan.." and it ended with repetitions of "Sasun, Marash, hay hogh e na..." It was upbeat, and I thought it was absolutely perfect for the occasion. I want to know the title and any other info you guys might have... Vahe: I actually noticed that a disproportionate number of the name flashing on the screens were WA transliterations - and was wondering why. I've always thought it's because Hayastantsis still aren't used to the fact that they live in the Diaspora. This type of stuff is second nature to WAs and Barsgahays, but something completely new for Hayastantsis.

Hello everyone. I was initially replying to Nairi's Eastern Armenian thread, but I realized I have so many questions about EA grammar/vocab/slang, that I thought I'd make my own thread so you guys can help me out!!! And I figure I can add questions as they come up. Just some stuff that's been on my mind lately --- 1) Do EA's use the word "hech" (nothing, vochinch)? I've always thought this was among the many Turkish words used in daily Western Armenian speech...but I've heard it used in a (modern) Armenian pop song from Armenia, so it piqued my interest! - This leads to a sub-question. During the "nerkaght" years, lots of WA speakers moved to Soviet Armenia. I'm going to assume they spoke WA to their children who grew up in Soviet Armenia, and in doing so, some Turkish words made their way to Armenia. Could "hech" be one of them? 2) The biggie. For a a couple of years now, I have been trying to figure out the VERB equivalents in EA. My one link to the EA world is my (Hayastantsi) best friend who is absolutely useless in EA/WA comparisons as she has studied only WA. I've tried researching online, and I found a magnificent website in English that gave comparisons between the dialects in every possible tense -- but I was so confused because it was written for people who know a thing or two about linguistics. I need a dumbed-down version!!! Let's use the verb "khosil" [to talk] (hurray, I found a verb that's written the same in either transliteration scheme ) First, the present tenses...First I'll put the English form, then the WA form, and you guys will help me with the EA form. I talk = Gu khosim = EA?? I am talking = Gu khosim [gor] = EA?? Khosoom em?? Now, what would be the EA equivalents?? To make things more confusing, I know that "Gu Khosim" means something completely different in EA -- something like future tense (I will speak? I shall speak?)...Help! - One of WA's major setbacks is the lack of distinction between I run/I am running. In school, we were taught NEVER NEVER NEVER to use the "gor" ending, especially in writing. But alas, it's used almost universally in daily speech. Some teachers told us it's a Turkish adaptation to the language, adopted to help make that differentiation. But I still don't buy it -- surely there can't be such a big gap/mistake in WA? Does anyone know anything about this?? (going off on a tangent, I know...sorry...) Okay, now past tense. I talked = Khosetsa(y) = EA? I was going to talk = Bidi khosei = EA? I was talking = Gu khosei [gor] = EA? And future (abarni! one of my favorite words!) tense. I will talk = Bidi khosim I am going to talk = Bidi khosim [or] Khoseloo em * Again, I think both Bidi khosim and Khoseloo em have different tense meanings in EA... * I think the proper way is Khoseloo em, but we just use Bidi Khosim in speech, and add a qualifying phrase after like, "hedo" to make the distinction. And how about the command form? (don't know what the real name is - imperative?) (You) Talk! = Khosi'r (although I have read the correct way is Khose) = EA ? .........This is all I can think of for now. But don't worry, I think of new questions daily...lol Thanks a lot!

[irrelevant comment to follow] Chojukh isn't Armenian?! I had no idea. oops. It's really amazing how many Turkish words are in my regular "Armenian" speech. At least with Arabic, I can recognize odar words and replace them with their Armenian versions (ex. "yaneh" replaced by "aysinkn") - but Turkish words, at least the way we use them, don't *sound* so different than WA, which I suppose is the point you were making...

Okay, I thought of another one. To bathe, to shower. (loKanal -- the 3rd letter here is the 3rd letter of the alphabet) Although the correct form is "lokanal," we generally shorten it to "loknal." Most, often, however, I hear it pronounced as "lognal," which is incorrect in WA (but correct in EA, I presume). But when the noun is pronounced, it is correctly pronounced as with a K sound for the third letter, as "lokank." Have I hijacked this thread enough?

I don't have any of the knowledge of linguistics or history of the language as any of you do, but I'd like to add my 2 cents. One of my best friends is Hayastanci, and so I've often been confused as to why she seemed to just randomly change the pronounciation of letters from word to word. Sometimes she sounded just like me (a Western speaker) and sometimes not. One of our constant quarrels was why she pronounced "yeghounk" (fingernail) the way I did (ie, with a hard k sound instead of a g sound). I always thought it was because she learned WA in school and was always surrounded by WA speakers, hence just mixing up the two forms of pronunciation. That is, until I heard her parents speak! Needless to say, they all make the "shift" between p/k, t/d, k/g. So part 1 of my post is a 'thank you!' as I finally begin to understand the reasons behind this. Part 2 is a question I pose, though I think this question is probably already inherently answered in all of your minds anyway: Is the fact that sometimes it's easier to pronounce b as p, g as k, d as t, etc one of the main reasons WA pronounciation developed the way it did? It seems to me that WA, having acknowledged that many of the consonants were being given more than 1 sound in speech, there was an effort to just go with the "easier" of the multiple sounds and make that sound the universal sound of the consonant letter. I don't mean to say it was a completely conscious decision. But it seems like this "easier off the tongue" reason and some other external factor(s) together is why WA evolved its pronunciation. What do you guys think? [Also, as you can see, I don't quite know the generally-accepted reasons that WA evolved its pronunciation system -- so I'd appreciate if someone could point me in the right direction. This has been bugging me for years!!] And a final note: I'm not sure if any of you had realized (or had any way to realize), but I've noticed that in some instances, WA reverts to EA pronunciation. I used to have a list of a few examples, but I can't remember them now. Except for one! The number "five" In WA, we *should* say "hink" -- but instead, we say "hing" Person 1: Jham@ kani eh? Person 2: Jham@ hing eh. This "incorrect" pronunciation also carries through when you say "hingin" (at five o'clock) or "hing ankam" (five times) or "hing oto" (five cars -- I know "oto" is not Armenian, but we use it anyway; on second thought, "hing inknasharjh" works here too lol). Point being, it seems whenever "hing" precedes a vowel sound, we pronounce it as "hing." However, the pronunciation "corrects" itself when we say "hink had." At first look, this makes sense because "h" is not a vowel. But, in reality, we don't pronounce the "h" in regular speech -- it simply becomes "hink-ad." So then why the change to the "k" sound?? [Note: even when I say it slowly, it's still "hink had."] Interesting stuff! There aren't very many of these "shifts" in WA -- but it sure is interesting that they exist. I'll try to think of some others...

Sorry about that...my mistake getting used to the board...

I was actually trying to sift through the old posts in the forum trying to find some information about the Armenians of Aleppo. Here is what I know, based on what my father (and mother) has told me. My grandmother didn't speak a word of Armenian, and I didn't speak Arabic, so we could hardly communicate. Besides, she passed away 2 years ago. So this is my father's account. He doesn't know where the "hin hays" (Arabic: Arman Adami; English: Old Armenians) came from or how long they had been in Aleppo. But, he points to the fact that the Armenian church in the old city of Aleppo (Karasoon Mangats) was built in the 11th or 12th century. I was actually baptized there; and have since visited it -- and it reminded me a great deal of the medieval churches I saw in Armenia's countryside. My dad also points out that the plaque on the church giving its date is in Arabic, and the gravestone of the clergymen are also all in Arabic. No Armenian script whatsoever, until the Genocide survivors came... My (paternal) grandmother was born in Aleppo in 1922. Both of her parents were also born in Aleppo. Her father did not speak Armenian, and his last name was "Janji" (from the Arabic word for "genie" -- I know the story behind this if you'd like to know it). But he was Armenian and considered himself as such. Her mother actually did speak Armenian. Her last name was "Ajemian" (from the word Ajemi, which was often used in the region to refer to people from Iran). I learned this a few days ago, actually -- the Ajemian side actually came from Iran. (Imagine my surprise when I found out I had some Barsgahay in me! haha) However, my grandmother could account for at least 3 generations of Ajemians living in Aleppo. That means they must have come to Aleppo from Iran sometime in the early 1800s or before. What is interesting is that the Ajemians spoke Western Armenian -- having adapted to the dialect when they moved to Aleppo. This is the only evidence I have of Armenian being used in Aleppo prior to the Genocide survivors coming in. But maybe this is because they had Barsgahye roots -- but then from whom did they learn the Western dialect? There must have been some Armenian-speakers there. And the fact that they still kept the language for 3 generations means the force of assimilation was not that strong. But regardless, the reason I know they spoke Western Armenian is because by grandmother's sister (10 years older) spoke Western Armenian, having learned it from her mother. The reason my grandmother didn't learn Armenian was because her mother died when my grandmother was only 2 years old, so she only learned what her father spoke, which was Arabic. A lot of my extended family on my father's side is "hin hay." And they usually married Armenian-speaking Genocide survivors. So even though the dominant language at home was Arabic, their children learned Armenian as a second language because they sent their kids to Armenian schools (but only until, say, the 3rd or 6th grade). So my father's side of the family is really very odd! LOL To this day, I don't know who speaks what language. I know they all speak Arabic and Arabic is the language of choice at family gatherings, but then suddenly they may begin to speak perfect Armenian, and I'm left to wonder "how does he/she know Armenian?!" haha Anyway, there are lots of hin hays in my family, with a variety of last names, including Hajjar, Khabbaz, etc. This is going off on a tangent, but for instance, my dad has 1 brother and 2 sisters. They all spoke Arabic at home because my grandma didn't speak Armenian. But, they decided to send the boys (including my father) to non-Armenian schools, and the girls to Armenian schools, until the 3rd and 6th grades. My father and his brother ended up marrying Armenian-speaking wives, so their kids (including me) speak Armenian. But the 2 girls ended up marrying "hin hays" -- so their children didn't speak Armenian. Even though the 2 girls learned Armenian at school, they struggle to speak it with me because of lack of practice, whereas my dad and uncle speak it with more ease. Some kind of irony, eh? The children of the 2 girls today don't speak Armenian, and almost all have married non-Armenians, sadly. This is the origin of my obsession with Armenian language and assimilation...