Dan

I'm not even gonna attempt to reply to gevo's post....... yeah? and genital cleanliness is allowed to be talked about in an Armenian forum? double standards there...? i hate to break it to you, but you are a hypocrite. believe it or not, in about 10 years, you will not be able to do anything about/against it. It's sad to see that Armenians these days are not open to change and social development....... and Armenia was the first nation to embrace change in the form of religion....... tell ya what, if you're so deeply rooted in your so called Armenian traditions that must be defended and kept at all cost, go live in whatever they lived in 1500 years ago........ eh? and i am not against preserving the history of our traditions... but cultures develop/undergo changes, not necessarily having to abandon their past or even their rites... it's sad to see so many hypocrites (i call them BS-ers) on a crusade in the name of Armenian traditions... i will refrain from talking further, as I'm afraid I will say wrong/bad things.... Lookie here kids, whether you like it or not, gay marriage is gonna be legalised in most countries/states pretty soon, so if you don't like it, go live in Saudi Arabia where your head/other parts (won't go into detail) are cut off if you openly do things like that. Try to live there and if you stay alive, come back and tell me what it was like.. k? now stop blindly advocating non-open-mindedness when you haven't lived in a country that is not open-minded. i have. so i say, deal with it, or leave! too many people (men) before you were opposed to women getting their rights... and well, believe it or not, they couldn't do anything/much about it except stop b****ing about it.

well, it was a more passive support, rather than an active one. by "support" i meant "choosing sides", not necessarily taking arms and fighting.. however, i believe there were a lot of Armenians killed...

That was Chamoun indeed. http://www.lebaneseforces.com/blastfromthepast015.asp

General Aoun still lives, in exile (France)... Samir Gaegea (the other guy) is in jail (not sure if he's been released)... As far as I know, he's Christian... More about him here: http://www.lebaneseforces.com/geagea.asp And about Michel Aoun: http://www.meib.org/articles/0101_ld1.htm I strongly believe that Elie Hobeika's assassination was of Israel's doing.... the car was blown up by a remote control... 22 pounds of TNT in a vehicle Hobeika was passing by.... More about his assassination here: http://www.meib.org/articles/0201_l1.htm

1955 -- At a secret cabinet meeting, Sharett quotes Moshe Dayan as saying that the "only thing necessary is to find an officer, even just a major. We should either win his heart, or buy him with money, to make him agree to declare himself the savior of the maronite population. Then the Israeli army will enter Lebanon, occupy the necessary territory, and will create a Christian regime which will ally itself with Israel. The territory from the Litani southward will be totally annexed to Israel, and everything will be all right." Dayan also admitted that "much anxiety had to be generated... the lives of Jewish victims also had to be sacrificed to create provocations justifying subsequent reprisals..." For the next ten years, Israel's concerns would center around Egypt and the perceived threat of Nasser's calls for Pan-Arab unity. It was not until after the Six Day War of June 1967 that Israel resumed its plans for Lebanon. 1969 -- Israeli planes bombed and destroyed Beirut's new international airport in another attempt at destroying that country's commercial and economic infrastructure. 1982 -- Ariel Sharon's Operation Peace for Galilee, this fifth Arab-Israeli war, and the massacres at Sabra and Shatila, Palestinian refugee camps outside Beirut, carried out under Israeli illumination. The Hizbulla, a group of southern Lebanese Muslims, came into existence as a result of this latest Israeli campaign, and in response to Israel's illegal occupation of their territory, as a liberating force. In April 1996, the Israeli armed forces launched an operation code-named "Grapes of Wrath", which was intended to wipe out Hezbollah's base in southern Lebanon. Critics of the operation accused the Israeli government of electioneering for a general election which was due in August. International condemnation greeted the massacre on 18 April 1996 of over 100 Lebanese refugees in a UN base at Qana, in what the Israeli military said was a mistake. i'm not an expert on history, although i've studied Lebanese history for God knows how long, but I took those from the internet... Israel (and Syria) is (/are)clearly to be blamed for a lot of what happened during that time in Lebanon, including the Sabra and Shatila massacres and the Qana massacre, during which i was in lebanon and pretty close...

lol... i whine SO much, that my mom just starts yelling at me haha.. then my stepdad tells me to come and watch TV with them... but my intentions are otherwise.. i just whine so that my mom would tell me "go out!!" but she never does.

Some pics of Sabra and Shatila (sp?) massacre: http://www.peter-f.de/sabra_chatillah_1982.htm http://www.alkhilafah.info/massacres/palestine/index6.htm Note: viewer discretion advised... And I lived partly through the Lebanese civil war in a more or less majority Armenian populated area, and I did see a lot of militiamen stop Armenians and question them/harass them, etc. I remember they even stopped me once (and I was a kid) while I was walking home from school, and asked me which side I was on... hmmmmm... But I don't know.. I wasn't old enough to know what Armenians were going through w.r.t. choosing sides... but I do remember when we used to go to the shelters, they talked a lot about who was on which side, and most of them were on General Aoun's side.....

our religion? i thought we didn't have a religion of our own, just a different church..... and whoever said it was pro-gay???? religion has been the institution that has given rise to MORE damage/ruin/destruction, hatred, intolerance, etc. than anything else in the history of mankind. So keep on glorifying religion..... and know that our ancestors were the victims of that religion - something there is no proof of in the first place... and know that the Turks massacred them in the name of religion and in the name of unifying the "empire", and making everything in it Turkish...... Congratulations, you would be the next Talaat "*****", only the modern Armenian version of "him," whose main objective is to go on a crusade of heterosexuality.......

hahaha.. lol vava... i should, eh? does that mean you're comparing me to bush?!??!!??! it was actually a pun... lol exactly... people like Davo want to live but not let live..... Davo, live and let live. you must realise that society and values do not stay the same - what was unacceptable 200 years ago is now normal, etc. Balzac once said "If there were fixed principles and laws nations would not change them as easily as we change our shirts." A little more than 80 years ago, it was absolutely unacceptable for women to vote, etc. Now women have those rights... Likewise in Armenian society (traditions, etc.), the role of the woman in the Armenian family has undergone massive change... my grandmother's generation and mine do not treat these issues the same way..... yet, in another thread you said you weren’t from the middle ages…

Welcome to HyeForum... oh... I'm a big fan of his songs/music.. Uhh yes... I have one. What's your music genre? Someone said that it's not similar to Arthur's.. Is that correct, and if yes, what kind of music do you play?

another thing: even if homosexuality is wrong in reality, until you prove it, i am entitled to my rights. welcome to the world of law.. it's tough out there, but hopefully you will live through it without getting high blood pressure.

Davo, methinks you have assimilated the belief system of Shiites, with the exception that you call yourself a Christian who is not from the middle ages.

what the hell are you talking about????? Armenians were massacred for their religion or whatever, how is that relevant to same-sex marriage????????? the fact that my ancestors were massacred for religion does not automatically mean that I HAVE TO be religious, ok? that is the biggest fallacy I've come across in the past coupla months.. again, that is totally irrelevant. and the fact that people choose to change their religious affiliation or whatever is none of your business, and you don't even have the right to criticise them for it, because every person can do whatever the hell he/she wants. who are you to label people and tell them what they are doing is right or wrong? why must all Armenians be the same? Are they sheep that have no brain, no personal identity, to be able to think for themselves, of themselves, and do the things they believe in which are really independent of their background/cultural identity? yes, i think it's about high time that drugs are legalised. and while i might not agree with drug use, i think people should be allowed to legally purchase small quantities of it for personal AND ADULT use. first off, why must you make everyone/everything be the same????? does your mind function only in uniforms???? why must you see ONLY homosexuals OR heterosexuals? gay marriage in no way MAKES heteros homosexual... your point is very weak.. and besides, homosexuality has existed since the beginning of time, and i think i'm alive and the human race has continued..... so your point is? yeah, and ears are not made for earrings... just for hearing... i suppose you advocate intolerance of women who have their ears pierced? or wait, don't women have hair on their legs, etc.? and isn't that the "natural" way? i suppose you like your women hairy? <_< too bad you don't have any valid arguments.. i would've loved to argue with someone on my own level... alas, you are not even close... so sad.. is this the level of intelligence your Armenian ancestors wanted you to be at? *shakes head*

Yeah, I was watching a documentary about the Sabra and Chatila massacres recently -- such a sad/horrible event.... one of the people who probably took part in it was killed last year (?) by a car bomb, I believe.. Elie Hobeika is his name.

am looking forward to reading it, Steve.

that is --> now pay attention to the main argument of the thread (Same Sex Marriages), instead of going in all directions without proving anything.

the thing that makes me just ignore your arguments is that you are equating homosexuality to bestiality....... and i have no comments on that one... so learn some history and do come back and tell me if homosexuality didn't exist in ancient Greece or even in Armenia (trasdamad (sp?) and Arshag [was it Arshag takavor who was captured by the Persians?]) and what are you talking about Armenian "ashkhar"? what are you specifically pointing at when you refer to "Armenian traditions"? if by that you mean intolerance and closed-mindedness, then no, that is not who Armenians are. Being open-minded and accepting (not necessarily agreeing with the act) of others for their differences or for who they are does not mean that you are letting go of your cultural identity or anything of the sort. maybe it is YOU who should wake up, because you seem to be SO blinded by the "Armenian values" our church supposedly (?) teaches/preaches (i wouldn't know if that is true, as i never go to church).. so by that token, should all Armenians be church-goers, devout Christians, etc.? after all, we were the first nation that accepted Christianity, right? ....... if you have something of significance to contribute to this thread, do so, but do not attempt to turn this into a fight between other members to get it locked, because if you do that, i'm gonna be one PISSED OFF GAY ARMENIAN.

it is not the same, but they're on the same level. it is part of my identity, just like my Armenian and British background. And I am proud to be all three. And for the record, Noah's arch landing on Ararat doesn't signify anything as to who lived there at the time......

Toronto Star Jan 6 2004 Turkish extremists pull plug on Ararat screenings Many there still deny film's genocide theme Unspecified threats made on Web site PETER HOWELL MOVIE CRITIC Terrorist-style threats in Turkey are preventing people there from seeing Atom Egoyan's Ararat and learning the truth about the country's violent past, the Armenian National Committee of Canada says. Egoyan's film, which premiered at the 2002 Cannes Film Festival and later opened the Toronto International Film Festival, examines the history and cultural impact of the 1915-23 genocide of an estimated 1.5 million Armenians by Turks of the Ottoman Empire. Turkey has long denied the genocide, and mention isn't made of it in Turkish school textbooks. Extremists in the country violently oppose any discussion of the mass deportation, starvation and torture of Armenians, which began during World War I. Despite this history of official denial, Ararat was scheduled to finally open Jan. 16 in the major Turkish cities of Ankara and Istanbul, as part of a democratization campaign by the Turkish government, the AKP Islamist Party. Erkan Mumcu, the minister of culture, permitted the screenings. But extremist allies of the Turkish military establishment and the national intelligence service, two groups that have long opposed freedom of speech, have effectively overturned the government's pro-Ararat stance by threatening the film's Turkish distributor. "The people who dare to show the movie ... should not forget that there is a price for enmity towards the Turks," says a press release on the Web site for Ulku Ocaklari, a far right national party allied with the Grey Wolves, a paramilitary group with close ties to the Turkish military and intelligence sectors. "We call on the AKP government, Minister Erkan Mumcu and the film distributing company to take our warning seriously and make the right decision." The group doesn't specify the consequences for anyone screening or even viewing Ararat in Turkey, but a column on the same Web site warns that "whoever wants to destroy the unity of this nation and the will of our existence should be ready to pay the price." Aris Babikian, a Toronto spokesman for the Armenian group, said last night the Turkish distributor of Ararat has bowed to the intimidation and decided not to show the film. The reaction isn't surprising, Babikian said, given the history of violence in Turkey against people who challenge the extremists, who still hold influence over the country. "Turkey is searching for its soul," he said. "There are some elements who don't like what's happening in Turkey: the democratizing of human rights, freedom of speech and freedom of the press. They don't want the healthy discussion and dialogue a film like Ararat would bring." Babikian said the Armenian National Committee of Canada is calling on democratic governments and media to fight the muzzling of Ararat. The failure of the pro-democracy movement could cost the country entry into the European Economic Community. "The only thing we can do is ask the international community to join us in protesting this. Freedom-loving people and the press should help us make an issue out of this, by forcing these people to allow the government to continue on its path to democratizing Turkey." Egoyan was unavailable for comment.

lol, who's bored? hehe

good luck. hope that helped

and this: http://www.lawvantage.com/index.shtml

hmmm, i donno if this is relevant or of any help, but here you go: http://www.rmarkhalligan2.com/trade/default.asp

i'd ... do nothing... what's there to do.. heh... it's not the end of the world, certainly. besides, getting away from home would be my salvation haha.. :

Davo, it is the same intolerance that led Turks to massacre Armenians.. So my verdict is that you're a hypocrite..