MSHAK Posted October 3, 2004 Report Share Posted October 3, 2004 (edited) Genocide is not only racial etermination of a nation or a group. Genocide is also an attemp to exterminate all the traces of those people whom they plan to annihilate. Cultural Genocide of the Armenian race started in 1170. when, as a result of "firework", organized by Seljuk-Turks in Armenian Castle Baghaberd, more than 10, 000 Armenian manuscripts were annihilated. Before the Armenian Genocide, therer were about 1200 Armenian Cathedrals and Churches in Turkey. Now, they are less than 12 Armenian Churches in Turkey.......... Another "round" of Cultural Genocide of Armenian Heritage started in Turkey in late 1950s, when Armenians started to talk about the Armenian Genocide. The pic of the new round was in 1970s, when Turks started to eraze every Armenian trace in Western Armenia. The purpose of Cultural Genocide in Turkey is to. 1. Show that Armenians have never lived and Western Armenian and are not the natives of Armenian Highland 2. Armenian Genocide is a "lie" Turkey is not the only coutry that commites the Cultural Genocide. Azerbaijan has joined Turkey. 10, 000s of Armenian Khachkars have been destroyed in Nakhichevan. What do you think, how can we stop the cultural genocide against Armenian Civilization? Below: Msho Surb Karapet in 1950s and today (Destroyed by Turkey) Edited October 3, 2004 by MSHAK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSHAK Posted October 3, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2004 St. Arakelots of Mush in 1960s and today, afer Turkish rapes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSHAK Posted October 3, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2004 Alashkert before and after Turkish "reconstruction" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSHAK Posted October 3, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2004 Varagavank Today. Destroyed by Turkey (Western Armenia) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted October 3, 2004 Report Share Posted October 3, 2004 (edited) Varagavank Today. Destroyed by Turkey (Western Armenia) style_images/master/snapback.png Then, how about screw building churches and do as Raffi says; "Build fortresses", then maybe those asses will have their asses kicked all the way to Ass-tana. Do we listen to our "prophets" like Raffi instaed of listening to those prophets of another people? No! We are still building zillions of churches all over the world. Look waht is happening to the 1001 churches of Ani! Wait a few decades and watch all those churches fall to the same, if not worse of the churches we left behind in what you call "Western Armenia". The hell with churches!! Start building fortresses and instead of zangakatun build missile silos and blow their silos, aka minarets all the way to the moon. POW!!! If Armenians had brains they could be dangerous!! Edit cant use that kind of words Arpa Edited October 4, 2004 by Edward Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
America-Hye Posted October 3, 2004 Report Share Posted October 3, 2004 (edited) Take out ads in the major world newspapers and show these pictures and others. Disseminate to the world what the Turks have done. Edited October 3, 2004 by America-Hye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig9 Posted October 4, 2004 Report Share Posted October 4, 2004 The hell with churches!! Considering that the Church is the pinnacle of the Armenian society, that would be a really bad idea. The first people who were killed by the Genocide were the clergy. Now, I am not saying that the Armenians don't need build up defenses. If Armenians had brains they could be dangerous!! Please retract you statement, if you consider Armenians as brainless people then, that would include you as brainless person as well, correct ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boghos Posted October 4, 2004 Report Share Posted October 4, 2004 Arpa has a point. Of course he is not saying that Armenians are brainless. He is just complainning about us getting our priorities wrong. I know a number of families, including my own, that donated money for the contruction of churches in Armenia. Let´s be serious, churches in Armenia ? If there is one thing in Armenia that there is no shortage of is churches. As for the clergy being slained during the AG: true, in many places they had a leadership position and some were intelectuals, so they were not just killed because they were priests but because they had a political and ideological role. Alas, this is hardly the case today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSHAK Posted October 4, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2004 The Armenian Church was the one who saved the Armenian Culture and Language during the times we did not have a state. I do not want to justify the passive role that Mother See has now, but we have to be united in order to be able to achieve something. To be untied we have to have something that unites us and it is the Armenian Apostolic Church church. Like in my state, where only 2000 Armenians live the only place where you can meet Armenians is the church. Armenia needs to have strategic buildings but our religion is strategy too, a weapon whith which we have defeated the enemies for hundreds of years. Guys please read the previous postings before making a statement and before responding. Arpa, I mentioned in my first posting that the reason of destroying the Armenian Cultural monuments in Turkey is to show that 1. Armenians have never lived in Western Armenia and 2. Armenian Genocide is a "lie". I think it is clear what should we be worried about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boghos Posted October 4, 2004 Report Share Posted October 4, 2004 Dear MSHAK, Turkey has been destroying all the Armenian monuments, not only churches, but of course primarily them, for a long time. I do agree that Turkey´s agenda is the wiping out of any vestiges of Armenian presence. On the other hand, and to be fair, Turkey´s "agenda" is destroying almost anything of value it has archeologically speaking. The notion that the Church was such a key institution over the centuries, the guardian of Armenianism, is some sort of established truth that has been under serious challenge in the last decades. Please seacrh this forum and you´ll find numerous posts on this subject. Lastly, do not mistake us for softies on these issues. If anything, quite the contrary. That does not mean, however, that we should not be coolheaded and objective about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted October 4, 2004 Report Share Posted October 4, 2004 Armenian churches (I mean only the buildings) have a great value to me as far as the faith of those who built it is concerned. Those ordinary people who built the churches were also among those who took up arms against our enemies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boghos Posted October 4, 2004 Report Share Posted October 4, 2004 True. But in a way they are monuments also to how naive we were. Most unfortunately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig9 Posted October 4, 2004 Report Share Posted October 4, 2004 Arpa has a point. Of course he is not saying that Armenians are brainless. He is just complainning about us getting our priorities wrong. I know a number of families, including my own, that donated money for the contruction of churches in Armenia. Let´s be serious, churches in Armenia ? If there is one thing in Armenia that there is no shortage of is churches. As for the clergy being slained during the AG: true, in many places they had a leadership position and some were intelectuals, so they were not just killed because they were priests but because they had a political and ideological role. Alas, this is hardly the case today. Ok it seems I have to break it down, the Armenian Church is responsible for, creating an alphabet, building hospitals and orphanages, instituting the family canon defending the Armenian Nation and keeping it autonomous, when the royalty and political groups wanted to assimilate our culture into the "ruling party", (the group that was ruling over Armenia at which ever point and time in history), it was the Church again that kept the Armenian culture and heritage. The Church is what gives Armenians hope. The hell with churches!! These types of statements do not better the cause, considering what the Church has done for the Armenian nation. This type of comment also show that the turks are progressing with the ability to erase an Armenians history. Again, I am not saying that Armenia doesn't need to build up defenses. The Churches are not just buildings, the Churches are also the people who built the buildings. But in a way they are monuments also to how naive we were. Most unfortunately. Those monuments helped define us as a people and a nation. I think that is what Mshaks point is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted October 5, 2004 Report Share Posted October 5, 2004 (edited) Ok it seems I have to break it down, the Armenian Church is responsible for, creating an alphabet, building hospitals and orphanages, instituting the family canon defending the Armenian Nation and keeping it autonomous, when the royalty and political groups wanted to assimilate our culture into the "ruling party", (the group that was ruling over Armenia at which ever point and time in history), it was the Church again that kept the Armenian culture and heritage. The Church is what gives Armenians hope. style_images/master/snapback.png Very good points Ludwig. Now, let us consider these. The above assumption is not new, nor is it a uniquely Armenian phenomenon. 1, Which alphabet was not invented by the clergy? The Egyptian hieroglyphics? The Pheonician whcih is considered the mother of the Latin/Greek ones? And the list goes on. There is a method to this madness. Whareas 99.9% of the people were totally illiterate, their only concern was how to provide for their families, how to best cultivate the land, the clergy were the only class that could read and write. 2. Hospitals: Once again not unique to us. While the temporal forces planned and fought wars, producing much death and injury, it was once again the church that cared for the dead and injured. Just for the fun of it, pick up your local yellow pages and read the names of hospitals. Mine lists, among others connected to universities; St Clair's, St. Mary's, St. Peter's, the Good Samaritan. Also consider Beth Israel, the (Muslim)Makased and the Armenian hospitals such as the famous Sb. Astvatsatsin of Istanbul. 3. Schools. Once again, before the advent of local community schools, all schools including the Armenian ones were somehow connected to the church. Even if at the present many parochial schools are closing down, you cite al the catholic schools named for this or that bishop, this or that saint. In the case of the Armenian Srbots Targmanchats, Sts, Sahak and Mesrop, Khrimian Lycaeium etc. Again, just like in the case of the hospitals and alphabets, who besides the clergy knew enough to teach? This is not a uniquely Armenian phenomenon, even if we must not deny the positive role of the church, perhaps we must learn to put things in their proper persepective and learn by observation rather than try and invent the wheel all over again. We may benefit by reassessing our priorities as they apply to the present and the future rather than rest on our laurels of the past. This will bring us to the oft repeated debate of (separation) of church and state. Even if the subject has been debated to the ground under many subject topics, we may open a whole new thread to see both sides of the argument. This may come as a shocker, yet it seems like the Armenian SEPARATION of church and state may have been one of the reasons of our downfall. You heard me right, I said "shocker" and I said "separation". Where as most of the biggest empires succeeded as a result of the oneness of church and state Armenian history is rife with incidents of the contest between the Armenian church and state. Arshakavan may be one of them if the best illustrated. (You may want to read my item about "Arshakavan"), while we forget such "unholy alliances" of church and state, consider the Holy Roman Empire, the Arab Empire, the Ottoman Empire among others, in thecase the latter two the king, the emir and the sultan were also known as "khalifa's" which in Arabic means "heir/successor" (to Mohammed), where the the temporal leader was also the head/leader of the "church/mosque" . Even in the case of ancient histories of Europe the king was always the head of the church and visa versa. The most recent example of this is the case of Henry VIII, who when crticized by the papacy, declared his independance and assumed the title of king and head of church, that is how the national church of England, the Anglican church came to be. How did that hurt/benefit the Brithish Empire? So, shall we also unite our church and state and try and emulate all those great empires? Maybe if we had done it several thousand years ago? But now, look at what happened to all those empires. For one, Turkey's claim to fame now is that they are the only "secular democratic Muslim state". Even if this latter may be a lot of hogwash 99.99 % of the world, perhaps with the exception of you and me take this to be the truth. I will spare us thecase of their "staunchest ally" in the region as being touted the"only democratic state". Have those pundits forgotten how to spell "theocratic"? As to the church being our protector and preserver, at times it backfired and, perhaps innocently became a means of our mass destructuion. Vardanants aside. There are numerous instances like this, every Armenian town and village has similar stories, the best known is, reminiscent of the Beslan massacre is during the Marash Massacre of 1920. The Turks had vowed to remove every trace and vestige of christians, not only Armenian but Assyrian, protestant, catholic and European, when they were torching whole Armenian Christian sctors, the defenseless Armenians all gathered at their particular churches, the biggest of them being Sb. Astvatsatsin, several thousand old men, women and children gathered there to only be incinerated alive when the Turks poured kerosene through the roof and set the church on fire. You think the Beslan massacre was horrific? Just imagine the scenario at that church. Once again. This is not to deny all the positive the Armenian Church has contributed, yet let us be realistic and consider the options. Of course, we cannot ride H. G. Wells' time machine and change the course of history, what if there were no Armenian Church, what if the kingdom of Armenia were stronger than the church, there is no way to know except to observe those who have been more successful, those who have grown bigger rather than like us-grown smaller(an oxymoron?), and see what it is that they did or did not, and what it is the we did or did not. How many of us consider Kocharian as "king" of armenia (lower case "a" to mean universal, not only Yerevan province)? How many of us consider Garegin Catholicos as "king" of armenia? One or the other. Perhaps we should try and find a way to unite the both. That way we will have one "king", pulling in one direction rather than each pull in the opposite, be it Geregin or Robert. I can live with one or the other but not with both. Armenians have always lost because of tug of wars among themselves in addition to the tug of wars of their neighbors far and near. If it was not nakharar against nakharar, nakharar against king, church against state, nakharar against church and visa versa, ad infinitum, we seldom read about when all the forces were united under one leadership, be it secular or religious. In fact, what we are doing here is exactly that. One party trying to prove the indisepnesabilty of the church while the other is trying to totally deny it. Is it not time that we try and find the good in either and work together instead of try eliminate one for the sake of the other? Humans are both spiritual and corporeal creatures, we need both no matter how hard we try neither will disappear. Learn to profit from the best of each discipline. At the present it may seem that Armenians may have found a working coesxistence between church and state, evenif at times we may hear rumblings of contest between the two. One does not need look too far to see that a hegemonuy of one over the other is doomed. At the present there are a few theocracies, for some reason they seem to be of the Islamic kind, I cannot think of any other non-Islamic ones. How long do you think the theocracies of Saudi Arabia and Iran will last? On the other hand, the lastest totally secular hegemony, the Soviet Union, which not only tried to be totally atheistic and also antitheistic. Do wee need to say more? It may be too late already but it may be worth a try. Edited October 5, 2004 by Arpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig9 Posted October 5, 2004 Report Share Posted October 5, 2004 That you for such a detailed post Arpa. What you have posted is the uncommon reality in which the Armenians as a society do not realize. There should be a happy median between the nationalist and the religious community. In the Armenian view, a person cannot have one without the other (religion and nationalism). If the Armenians would learn to accept that their history, they would know that our most courageous and most nationalistic hero’s were our clergy as well. There will be people who are more religious than nationalist and vice versa. Now here is a cross road, when Armenians study and know their Church and nation, they are better able to preserve the identity as one of the worlds oldest civilizations. Seriously, let’s look at the present; most of the people are clueless of our Saints and martyrs. Beside the Genocide, being a Armenian comes down (now I hate to say this) to being a plate of basturma (and yes, I like basturma). Being an Armenian American, its very disappointing to see how the so-called western “scholars” define what an Armenian is, and how Armenians need the validation of OTHER PEOPLE BESIDES THEMSELVES, to authenticate their existence and how the self centered idealization of modernism defines what is right really means, what is right for me, and that Armenians need to be like the “Americatsi’s”, and “fit in” whatever that is suppose to mean. Do Armenians really realize that during the war to liberate Artsakh, the one of the ways soldiers were able to tell the difference between the Arzi and the Armenian troops during battle, is that the Armenians soldiers had a mark of the cross on them? Meanwhile, most of the Armenians sitting in the U.S. are proclaiming and joining religions other than the Armenian Church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaunt Posted October 5, 2004 Report Share Posted October 5, 2004 This culture needs to be destroyed and rebuilt any ways; it has developed as a result of centuries of alienation, and subjugation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig9 Posted October 5, 2004 Report Share Posted October 5, 2004 This culture needs to be destroyed and rebuilt any ways; it has developed as a result of centuries of alienation, and subjugation. style_images/master/snapback.png By stating - This Culture - you mean the modern culture ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaunt Posted October 5, 2004 Report Share Posted October 5, 2004 Yes, and what is needed is an Age of Reason, an Age of Enlightenment. I want to see the Westernization of our culture (especially in our civil, economical, and political culture). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSHAK Posted October 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 Yes, and what is needed is an Age of Reason, an Age of Enlightenment. I want to see the Westernization of our culture (especially in our civil, economical, and political culture). style_images/master/snapback.png If you want to see your 12-years-old daughter having sex and using drugs, live in your favorite "West" and "Westernize" your own kids. You do have that right. But you do not have the right to destroy a civilization of 5, 000 years with its unique national and moral values, values that have lead us to survive in the long run of the human civilization. Մենք մեզ ոչ մեկից չենք գերադասում, Բայց մեզ էլ գիտենք, մեզ հայ են ասում........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armat Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 Dear Mshak I believe Shaunt means western concept of corruption free society (not possible totally) honest business dealings, democratic values etc. As for Armenia having specific values ,other then great hospitality traits the rest are mostly could be thrown in garbage. I used to change my school route every day in order not to confront the boys huddling together with their pointy shoes and pretending to be someone and if you thought they were minority you are mistaken. My father ,mother and sister were picked on almost daily because we were from Iran. In fact Armenians in Yerevan were the most intolerant people in retrospect that I have known in my life. So, sure Ara Beliozian can blame the Ottomanization syndrome of our people but I suspect it may well be our small time, small world mentality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boghos Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 My father ,mother and sister were picked on almost daily because we were from Iran. In fact Armenians in Yerevan were the most intolerant people in retrospect that I have known in my life. style_images/master/snapback.png Would you please explain what form this took place ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 Would you please explain what form this took place ? style_images/master/snapback.png "Parsik shun" that was the most common name calling, and the funny thing was in Iran we were called "sag ermeni shun hay, only we ended up in Armenia and became parsik shun, ironic isent it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 "Parsik shun" that was the most common name calling, and the funny thing was in Iran we were called "sag ermeni shun hay, only we ended up in Armenia and became parsik shun, ironic isent it? style_images/master/snapback.png reminds me of a person i know, who complains that she was a "axpari jut" when they moved to armenian in 60s and became "kextot hayastantsi" when they moved to usa in 70s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boghos Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 "Parsik shun" that was the most common name calling, and the funny thing was in Iran we were called "sag ermeni shun hay, only we ended up in Armenia and became parsik shun, ironic isent it? style_images/master/snapback.png Ironic indeed. I didn´t know that it went that far or that it was so constant..."Parsik shun"... I have read a few biographies of people that immigrated to Armenia in the late 40s (in my family we have some as well) that did not find a welcoming atmosphere to say the least. Similar phenmoenae ar documented for other countries but I confess that in the case of Armenia it is a bit more puzzling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 Ironic indeed. I didn´t know that it went that far or that it was so constant..."Parsik shun"... I have read a few biographies of people that immigrated to Armenia in the late 40s (in my family we have some as well) that did not find a welcoming atmosphere to say the least. Similar phenmoenae ar documented for other countries but I confess that in the case of Armenia it is a bit more puzzling. style_images/master/snapback.png Dear Boghos, the only explanation that I can think of one must just take a look at those times the state of the country being ruled by totalitarian dictator one after another, where if said he was the enemy it was taken without any second thought, who dared to say otherwise. Transformation of such a behavior was inherited right from the top, we have a saying, (fish rots from the head) in late 40's vast majority of Hayrenadarts hays were exiled into Siberia some just vanished, some were turned in by there neighbors some just looked suspicious, some had to just go because they had a “plan” to give. Harvest of the enemy of the state. We never felt at home to be honest. But I miss it dearly something I can’t express nor understand. I guess that didn’t matter much, those calls, animosity, in the end I consider my self lucky growing up in motherland, despite of the hardship we had to endure yet we gain so much, so much to last a lifetime Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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