Cultural Genocide Of Armenian Heritage

[Armen]

Armen,

Indeed it is another chicken-or-egg problem.  In many instances, a slowly-decaying, dysfunctional empire starts to exploit its subjects more and more heavily in desperation.  This leads to many generations knowing nothing but an unfair and useless government before it collapses fully.  The emergent cultures or nations do not start with a clean slate; they start with a populace that is deeply and justifiably suspicious of any government.  Armenian history clearly fits into this category.  For at least the past thousand years (in fact much more) until recently, Armenians have been governed by non-Armenians.  Therefore it is not unreasonable to claim that bad (Armenian) governance came before the (Armenian) "excessive emphasis on family ties".  The latter seems to be a defence mechanism against the former.  Anyway, let me re-emphasize that I disagree with the statement that the Armenia of LTP was a tabula rasa to be written on.

 

TB, I agree with your describtion of the changing role of the government and populations reaction to it. But again, and I say this from my experience and memories from the eraly 90s, that for at least some 3 years LTP's administration had a carte blanche. Not only in administrative sense but in moral sense. I clearly remember the emotional athmosphere in the evening when the members of HHSH were flown back to Yerevan from their Moscow arrest in 1990 and LTP and others spoke from the steps of Matenadaran to the biggest crowd of all since the movement began. People had great faith in them at that moment. Women, who always stay skeptical of political gatherings, were a big part of the crowd.

This day was the starting point of HHSHs further actions. They had all the credit necessary. The crowd was very sincere, with no skepticism whatsoever.

 

Whatever the case may be, it is unrealistic to expect a harmless reversion to altruistic collaborative model of behavior once you weaken the family ties.  On the contrary, weakened family ties would lead to hyper-individualism, which would then lead to a crisis of meaning in people's lives.  The emptiness then would be filled either by government (still bad at that point) propaganda (a la "1984" of Orwell) or various flavors of religious bullshit.  Any variants of such an outcome are utterly undesirable.

 

Hyper-individualism doesn't exist. It is an immaginary category because people need social action. Human beings cannot stay lonely and they desperately need social affirmation of their human nature. I have to make correction here. I mentioned it to my posting addressed to Mashak but skiped it in my posting to you. I advocate for this change of values in public policy arena. This doesn't mean that all Armenians should consider this change a must. This may be a matter of specialized education for civil servants etc.

 

The route from tribalism to collective cohesion and trust does not, and even if it could, should not, pass from weakening family ties.

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Why?

[Twilight Bark]

People had great faith in them at that moment.

No doubt. However, the whole movement and the people's attitude in general were still in "get something from Moscow" mode. In essence, at least subconsciously, they were ganging/huddling together against the perceived ultimate authority.

 

 

I advocate for this change of values in public policy arena. This doesn't mean that all Armenians should consider this change a must. This may be a matter of specialized education for civil servants etc.

But this is essentially equivalent to saying that we should have well-trained public servants, for whom thinking like a true public servant is second nature. They just need to do their job properly. They don't need to promise "Hey, I'll screw my family for you!".

 

As for why the route to effective governance should not pass through weakening family ties. That's because it is always healthier to arrive at a result through competition rather than weakening your "opponent". Any government model worth its salt should be able to provide compelling reasons to well-trained public servants not to put their cousin Harut's bank account above their public duties, and not because he thinks cousin Harut, along with the rest of the family, is an insufferable bore that he has to see at every damn Christmas gathering.

[Twilight Bark]

Hyper-individualism doesn't exist. It is an immaginary category because people need social action. Human beings cannot stay lonely and they desperately need social affirmation of their human nature.

We agree there, as I indicated in my earlier reply. There is a fine distinction however; it exists only as a temporary, untenable state. In the same reply, I had also indicated the dangers of that transient state.

[Armen]

No doubt.  However, the whole movement and the people's attitude in general were still in "get something from Moscow" mode.  In essence, at least subconsciously, they were ganging/huddling together against the perceived ultimate authority.

 

People might have all kinds of mixed fealings, preferences and choices at these kind of periods of uncertainty. But it that was a moment of truth and people would gradually change their subconsciousness if the administration would make the right decisions in terms of providing at least the minimum amount of public good to cement the fealing of Armenian collectiveness. An relatively equal economic opportunity would do the job.

 

But this is essentially equivalent to saying that we should have well-trained public servants, for whom thinking like a true public servant is second nature.  They just need to do their job properly.  They don't need to promise "Hey, I'll screw my family for you!".

 

We came to the same knot again. This is true for a normal course of public life. I am analysing the starting point, when the people in government had to, in some cases, screw their family members, LTPs own brother being a very telling case. At present, Kocharian is facing the same dillema. Even if he wants to make those reforms, the clan system is opposing it. His own clan is opposing it.

The public servants in Armenia are "growing up" with the same mindset.

 

As for why the route to effective governance should not pass through weakening family ties.  That's because it is always healthier to arrive at a result through competition rather than weakening your "opponent".  Any government model worth its salt should be able to provide compelling reasons to well-trained public servants not to put their cousin Harut's bank account above their public duties, and not because he thinks cousin Harut, along with the rest of the family, is an insufferable bore that he has to see at every damn Christmas gathering.

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Let me put it this way. If the Bush clan system was to exist in the founding years of U.S. in its current shape U.S. would have been different country, in negative sense.

[Twilight Bark]

I am analysing the starting point, when the people in government had to, in some cases, screw their family members, LTPs own brother being a very telling case.

Those clan members should be screwed not because they are family, or because the person in power doesn't care about family. They should be screwed because they are dishonest jerks that dishonor the family.

[Armen]

Those clan members should be screwed not because they are family, or because the person in power doesn't care about family.  They should be screwed because they are dishonest jerks that dishonor the family.

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This is why I say a public servant must have the necessary mindset and will to do that. Not to do that for the sake of doing that. But to be ready for it.

[Twilight Bark]

This is why I say a public servant must have the necessary mindset and will to do that. Not to do that for the sake of doing that. But to be ready for it.

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Yes but you need to institute the basic rules of ethics, rather than weaken the family per se. The reason family ties is an issue is because of lack of ethics. Not because they love their family members oh-so-much.

[Armen]

Yes but you need to institute the basic rules of ethics, rather than weaken the family per se.  The  reason family ties is an issue is because of lack of ethics.  Not because they love their family members oh-so-much.

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Of course it's about ethics. And that's very well reflected in Hovhaness Toumanian's works. Particularly, "Mkneri Zhoghove" (can't help emphacising enough). Mouse is the symbole of "the family". It carries cheese into its hole for its family members. Because it is a mouse...it is not a wolf, it is not a lion.

[MSHAK]

Mshak jan, I am not a government official, so I may choose not to change the strong values. Do you read what I write?!

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I expected this response. So you actually did not provide supportive details for your point which was "some Armenian values should be changed".

 

[Twilight Bark]

Of course it's about ethics. And that's very well reflected in Hovhaness Toumanian's works. Particularly, "Mkneri Zhoghove" (can't help emphacising enough). Mouse is the symbole of "the family". It carries cheese into its hole for its family members. Because it is a mouse...it is not a wolf, it is not a lion.

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It seems to me what you are advocating is a reduction in the relative importance of family ties. Well sure, the sense of social responsibility, trust, and cooperation should certainly be increased and strengthened. That is a self-evidently desirable goal that does not need a reduction in the absolute strength of family ties in the culture in order to be achieved. And I submit that, if the increase in relative importance of social responsibility is to have a point at all, it should not come through an erosion of family cohesion. It should instead successfully compete with that cohesion. A lot of it simply involves basic ethics and honesty.

[mx5]

I dont know why but I find your argument about Armenians calling each other in many ways to be completely outdated and no reason at all to be justifyed.

 

When we were there in Yerevan couple of months ago (me my wife and son)we never felt that we were threated any different than a local Armenian,we felt we were even threated with more respect,many people we met encouraged us to move and live there!!.

 

and we from our part never felt strangers,so much so that my 15 years old son waiting impatiantly for our next visit (I suspect he liked the Armenian girls there!!)

 

I dont know why some guys like to bring up things that might have happened or not decades ago...for many of us it is completely insignificant,we would like to focus on the future..and as I see it is very bright...!!

[Armen]

I dont know why but I find your argument about Armenians calling each other in many ways to be completely outdated and no reason at all to be justifyed.

 

When we were there in Yerevan couple of months ago (me my wife and son)we never felt that we were threated any different than a local Armenian,we felt we were even threated with more respect,many people we met encouraged us to move and live there!!.

 

and we from our part never felt strangers,so much so that my 15 years old son waiting impatiantly for our next visit (I suspect he liked the Armenian girls there!!)

 

I dont know why some guys like to bring up things that might have happened or not decades ago...for many of us it is completely insignificant,we would like to focus on the future..and as I see it is very bright...!!

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Thank you

[Armen]

I expected this response. So you actually did not provide supportive details for your point which was "some Armenian values should be changed".

 

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Man, as if I new you were going to post this. My heart was telling me that you were gonna say this. So you actually did not understand that I provided suffucient supportive details for my point which was "some Armenian values should be changed".

[MSHAK]

Man, as if I new you were going to post this. My heart was telling me that you were gonna say this. So you actually did not understand that I provided suffucient supportive details for my point which was "some Armenian values should be changed".

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Read your posts again

[MSHAK]

I dont know why but I find your argument about Armenians calling each other in many ways to be completely outdated and no reason at all to be justifyed.

 

When we were there in Yerevan couple of months ago (me my wife and son)we never felt that we were threated any different than a local Armenian,we felt we were even threated with more respect,many people we met encouraged us to move and live there!!.

 

and we from our part never felt strangers,so much so that my 15 years old son waiting impatiantly for our next visit (I suspect he liked the Armenian girls there!!)

 

I dont know why some guys like to bring up things that might have happened or not decades ago...for many of us it is completely insignificant,we would like to focus on the future..and as I see it is very bright...!!

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Right!

[Armen]

Read your posts again 

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Done! Now, you read both your posts and my posts.

[Armat]

Dear mx5

What I conveyed was our experience over twenty years ego and I am happy that our society in Armenia has improved. As an Armenian what better joy is there then feeling accepted and be part of homeland.

I also want to add that often guest trips do not convey the impressions of the real reality, which is different once you actually live there.

[Armen]

It seems to me what you are advocating is a reduction in the relative importance of family ties.  Well sure, the sense of social responsibility, trust, and cooperation should certainly be increased and strengthened.  That is a self-evidently desirable goal that does not need a reduction in the absolute strength of family ties in the culture in order to be achieved.  And I submit that, if the increase in relative importance of social responsibility is to have a point at all, it should not come through an erosion of family cohesion.  It should instead successfully compete with that cohesion.  A lot of it simply involves basic ethics and honesty.

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I find the root of the lack of the self-evident basic social ethics in Armenia in the abolute strength of family ties. As far as the decision making process of our government is concerned, the primary challenge to the provision of collective good has been the alternative of providing the "pork barrel" to the seletorate (family) instead of sharing it with constituency.

[Twilight Bark]

I find the root of the lack of the self-evident basic social ethics in Armenia in the abolute strength of family ties. As far as the decision making process of our government is concerned, the primary challenge to the provision of collective good has been the alternative of providing the "pork barrel" to the seletorate (family) instead of sharing it with constituency.

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So are you saying that people in Armenia love and care about their family much more than those in less corrupt countries? Have those diasporan Armenians that are making a living ethically achieved that state of mind through weakening their family values and ties, and care less about their family members in absolute terms, compared with Armenians in Armenia proper?

[Armen]

So are you saying that people in Armenia love and care about their family much more than those in less corrupt countries?  Have those diasporan Armenians that are making a living ethically achieved that state of mind through weakening their family values and ties, and care less about their family members in absolute terms, compared with Armenians in Armenia proper?

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I haven't seen that many Armenians in governments of the countries they reside. Compared to other professions, public service is one of the last ones Armenians choose. I wonder why.

[Twilight Bark]

I haven't seen that many Armenians in governments of the countries they reside. Compared to other professions, public service is one of the last ones Armenians choose. I wonder why.

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Lack of ethics? Too fond of their clan?

Naah. As reasons, those don't make sense. Armenians don't like government probably because of their history with the concept. And the next level of "governance" is extended family, to which they default. We are then back to square one, where I say that you can not go to a healthy government by simply weakening family ties, as they are not the root cause. In fact they are the last line of defence that should be left alone. In this area, we need an addition (of a sense of social responsibility) into the culture, not a removal (of close-knit family). The removal of the latter does not lead to the addition of the former that is somehow waiting ro rush in, but is being stopped by family values.

 

I agree that what has evolved as a defensive strategy (strong family), appears to be operating counterproductively among the ruling elite, who cannot break free of their programming. I disagree that a simple removal of that programming is the answer, because what can easily take its place is even less desirable (e.g. an Orwellian government or a cacophony of New Age nonsense). A "school" that is capable of producing a generation of self-centered, careerist elite groomed for government can also easily produce a generation of otherwise "normal" Armenians who have been instilled with a strong sense of ethics and priority. The cultural difference between the government elite and the rest of the population should not be in their love of family.

Edited October 13, 2004 by Twilight Bark

[Armen]

Lack of ethics?  Too fond of their clan?

Naah.  As reasons, those don't make sense.  Armenians don't like government probably because of their history with the concept.  And the next level of "governance" is extended family, to which they default.  We are then back to square one, where I say that you can not go to a healthy government by simply weakening family ties, as they are not the root cause.  In fact they are the last line of defence that should be left alone.  In this area, we need an addition (of a sense of social responsibility) into the culture, not a removal (of close-knit family).  The removal of the latter does not lead to the addition of the former that is somehow waiting ro rush in, but is being stopped by family values.

 

I think I was wrong in mentioning them as reasons. But it sure is a negative factor.

 

I agree that what has evolved as a defensive strategy (strong family), appears to be operating counterproductively among the ruling elite, who cannot break free of their programming.  I disagree that a simple removal of that programming is the answer, because what can easily take its place is even less desirable (e.g. an Orwellian government or a cacophony of New Age nonsense).  A "school" that is capable of producing a generation of self-centered, careerist elite groomed for government can also easily produce a generation of otherwise "normal" Armenians who have been instilled with a strong sense of ethics and priority.  The cultural difference between the government elite and the rest of the population should not be in their love of family.

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I am not saying that the programming of the ruling elite that rules now should be removed. Surely, they will become monsters. But the gowing generation must be programmed differently. However, the new generation is being spoiled by the older one.

I want to remind you a group of your posts where you criticised the upbringing of Armenian boys by their mothers. I don't know where it fits but I have a fealing you know where.

TB, why are you distancing yourself from the forum, become a part of family

[Twilight Bark]

I want to remind you a group of your posts where you criticised the upbringing of Armenian boys by their mothers.

You are right, that issue ties into this one. The problem is that boys are often not raised at all. They just ... grow. The values that they take to their graves are the adolescent ones that they teach one another. On the other hand, I am more disgusted when I see the vanilla American way of interacting with their kids as if they are conducting a business transaction, and their panicked obsession with making their kids "independent" so that they can kick them out of the house when they turn 18, preferably before (sappy pretense aside). They produce emotionally crippled, confused people. So I think a nudging of Armenian parental practices in the right direction (by adding certain things) is better than adopting the "western" model of parenting wholesale.

 

TB, why are you distancing yourself from the forum, become a part of family 

Oh I think I have always been "distant" . And I am up to my eyebrows in family, thank you very much.

[Armen]

Here is my initial posting TB.

 

I also think that some of the traditionally Armenian values should be changed. At least some segment of Armenia's population should change it in themselves. E.g. the "strong family" value is counterproductive for any government official. As long as they keep that value in the government, corruption is going to be the master of everything. My brother, your uncle...akhper jan.

 

I think it is still ture, although at some point I made a deviation from that in terms of causility.

 

The problem is that boys are often not raised at all. They just ... grow.  The values that they take to their graves are the adolescent ones that they teach one another.

 

I think they (we ) are being raised like that.

 

On the other hand, I am more disgusted when I see the vanilla American way of interacting with their kids as if they are conducting a business transaction, and their panicked obsession with making their kids "independent" so that they can kick them out of the house when they turn 18, preferably before (sappy pretense aside).  They produce emotionally crippled, confused people.  So I think a nudging of Armenian parental practices in the right direction (by adding certain things) is better than adopting the "western" model of parenting wholesale.

 

This upbringing, althought with some Armenian corrections, maybe very useful to the segment of population I mentioned. As they say in China: "Socialism with Chinese characteristics".

Edited October 14, 2004 by Armen

[Armen]

http://www.azg.am/?lang=AR&num=2004102013

 

I think this article somehow relates to the earlier posts in this thread.

 

BTW Azg daily regularly publishes in articles in Western Armenian, which I think is very smart of them. Armenia's all newspapers should do that.