DominO123 Posted July 9, 2004 Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 Domino, now you fell in the trap of some liars, I know about those allegations. There is one person who poses different names to throw trash on Sri Chinmoy. Domino, you should be familiar with liars as you often face among genocide deniers... and as far as lifting weights, well I have seen with my own eyes, not a tape. Don't think that his disciples are naive people, I am not naive either... Sasun, when I face a liar, I do not supress his freedom os speech unless my freedom of speech is supressed. The reason I believe those that accuses him is because of the way they are silenced. This man has as much power as the massonics. Is affiliated with many organisations. Here an example of a site which have its critics of Chonmoy deleted. http://www.phatnav.com/wiki/wiki.phtml?title=Sri_Chinmoy There are others as well, don't tell me no, because the orginal of all the links(on the bottom) contained critics as well which are still presents in other sites. Sasun, how can you say all those accusations are lies? The accusations of sexual abuses are from everywhere, persons that had no reason to lie at all... even musicians leaving him for this. Read all those accusation before claiming right away they are lies. Before I accuse a Turk of lying I read his materials and analysis them, search for the source etc... and THEN come to the conclusion. As for Art, I'm an artist as well, visual and musical art... I know what art is, but your refferences to his poems doesn't make sense at all. First if it is only art, you could not have claimed there is special messages in them, everyone can write a poem and tell others that they can not grasp what he is writting. The messages from those poems depend on the person that view them, this is what art is, not everyone feel the same emotions from the same masterpiece. And believe me, I know when I see a masterpiece and when I see trash, there is a distinction. What Armat paint is masterpiece, what Chonmoy paint is trash. Yes, there are beautiful color agensings, but this doesn't make something a masterpiece... there must be a style in the work. When I see Armats paintings, I know they are "Armatians" because his style is a proper to him. Chinmoy painting is no different than paintings from newagers with acrylic-art type of colors. His poems as well are not so extraordinary. Now you will tell me that the art is not everything, and that there is messages in them, when previously you told me that this is art, not supposed to be rational. If it is art, then one more reason to tell that this man is doing nothing new at all. Now regarding his lifting more than 3 tonnes(about 3 times the weight of a medium sized car). Sasun, even if he had so much power, the human bones can't lift that much, supposing that finally they could, the pressure on his fit would brake on what he stend on. If it is anti-gravity like it is claimed, why have he used his arms then? I will tell you why all those claims. If this man was so exeptional, he would not need success stories to show him as a super human in order to find followers. I admit Thoth is being hard here, but I do not like that man either, he is obviously a megalomanic guru, how can you tell those are lies? Read the so-called explanations regarding the statue of liberty, how can you find sense from those justifications? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted July 9, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 Good link Domino...aprently Chinmoy is into sex after all...just his disciples he urges to abstain - lol - very typical I might add... "The armchair, upon which no one else may sit, belongs to Alo Devi, aka Beverly Siegerman who has lived with Sri Chinmoy in his home in Queens for the last 40 years. It is a sad, sad story. Originally, when they started their mission, she had the same status as Chinmoy. Disciples were told that she was enlightened like Chinmoy, that she was his spiritual Shakti, his divine consort, that they were "the obverse and reverse of the same coin" to quote Chinmoy. Disciples revered her as the Queen of the Universe. ... Some years later select disciples were taken aside privately either by Chinmoy himself or by senior disciples and told that Alo Devi had lost her spiritual realization, that she had "fallen". Now this is contrary to every religious tradition that I know of. The consensus is that once someone has become fully realized or enlightened they can never lose that state: however it gives us a glimpse into how a cult leader rules. The power of information is heady stuff. ... In my day they fought and argued regularly in front of disciples. It was generally accepted that she was jealous of the small group of young women disciples with whom Chinmoy constantly surrounded himself. Although at the time I knew nothing of the secret sex club, in hindsight I cannot believe that I was so naive. Once again it shows the power of cult conditioning." Hey Sasun - maybe you could join a Rama group..he's dead now - so is relieved of the pressure of earthly vices.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted July 9, 2004 Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 The reason I believe those that accuses him is because of the way they are silenced. This man has as much power as the massonics. Is affiliated with many organisations. Now you are being ridiculous, since when you started to believe in conspiracy theories. Therefore I am right to conclude that you are being strongly biased and irrational. Here an example of a site which have its critics of Chonmoy deleted. http://www.phatnav.com/wiki/wiki.phtml?title=Sri_Chinmoy Are you sure what was it that was deleted? Well, an internet site will do very right to delete lies. So what is the problem here. There are others as well, don't tell me no, because the orginal of all the links(on the bottom) contained critics as well which are still presents in other sites Sasun, how can you say all those accusations are lies? The accusations of sexual abuses are from everywhere, persons that had no reason to lie at all... even musicians leaving him for this. Read all those accusation before claiming right away they are lies. There is one person who uses different names to post. Not that it matters, but accusers are not really many. Before I accuse a Turk of lying I read his materials and analysis them, search for the source etc... and THEN come to the conclusion. You have done a very bad search in this case. I am telling you, for each 1 liar, there will be many current disciples who will tell you the opposite. As for Art, I'm an artist as well, visual and musical art... I know what art is, but your refferences to his poems doesn't make sense at all. But do you know and understand everything? Don't be arrogant Domino, something could not make sense to you but it could actually have a lot of sense, only because you don't unserstand. First if it is only art, you could not have claimed there is special messages in them, everyone can write a poem and tell others that they can not grasp what he is writting. The messages from those poems depend on the person that view them, this is what art is, not everyone feel the same emotions from the same masterpiece. And who said the opposite? You are the one claiming that there is no sense. Well, to you there is no sense, but to other there is sense. So what is your argument about? And believe me, I know when I see a masterpiece and when I see trash, there is a distinction. What Armat paint is masterpiece, what Chonmoy paint is trash. Yes, there are beautiful color agensings, but this doesn't make something a masterpiece... there must be a style in the work. When I see Armats paintings, I know they are "Armatians" because his style is a proper to him. Chinmoy painting is no different than paintings from newagers with acrylic-art type of colors. His poems as well are not so extraordinary. Look, what do you want to prove? Have I claimed the Sri Chinmoy is the greatest artist? He has never claimed such. Why do you find the need to trash him, for what reason? What do you have against him? Now you will tell me that the art is not everything, and that there is messages in them, when previously you told me that this is art, not supposed to be rational. If it is art, then one more reason to tell that this man is doing nothing new at all. You said your opinion, fine and good. I am neither a painter nor a specialist, but in some paintigs when I look at them I feel joy. That is for me proof that this is not an ordinary painting, and the auther is not an ordinary painter. Now regarding his lifting more than 3 tonnes(about 3 times the weight of a medium sized car). Sasun, even if he had so much power, the human bones can't lift that much, supposing that finally they could, the pressure on his fit would brake on what he stend on. If it is anti-gravity like it is claimed, why have he used his arms then? Domino, again you are mistaken. He has not lifted 3 tons with bare hands. He has never claimed such. He has lifted very heavy objects using an instrument. There is no lie or deception here, everyone can see that he is using an instrument. But you chose to read some liars claiming who knows what... I have seen him lifting hundreds of pounds dumbells straight with bare hands, that was one year ago. And over time he lifts more and more, this year he has reached to more than a 1000 pound. The goal is not to impress people and gain fame as you are saying, but to show his philosophy of self-transendence, that man can do better if he sets his mind to it. And he is spreading that message among others. Don't confuse right with wrong, he is not a weightlifter, he is a guru, and his teaching is self-transendence. Therefore, he will demonstrate self-transcendence (and other messages that he teaches). As to powers, well, yogis can do practically everything they want. A yogi can make things like move mountains, make the planets disappear, practically anything using occult power. So don't think that a yogi's bones will break under 3 tones. Having said this, no, Sri Chinmoy absolutely does not use any occult power. He uses ordinary bone and flesh power and above all the power of the spirit. He teaches his students the art of indurance and self-transcendence, and his students do self-transcendence such as crossing 3100 miles non-stop. What do you know about these, you don't know nothing. You think that you are being an honest person and telling the truth. But do you really know the truth to be honest? I will tell you why all those claims. If this man was so exeptional, he would not need success stories to show him as a super human in order to find followers. I admit Thoth is being hard here, but I do not like that man either, he is obviously a megalomanic guru, how can you tell those are lies? Read the so-called explanations regarding the statue of liberty, how can you find sense from those justifications? I don't know the truth of statute of liberty story, and I don't care. The last thing to do is to ask that from people on the internet who have only one goal to trash this man. If I want to find out, I will ask real people whom I know in person and trust, not a person who uses ten usernames to spread lies, or other dubious people. Domino, if you don't like Sri Chinmoy that is fine. But it is outraging to see an innocent man being accused of all sorts of ridiculous things. Why do you think that you know more than people who have been very close disciples for decades? What kind of rationality is this? And why do you trust internet accounts of people who you don't know. Yes, Sri Chinmoy is very powerful in the inner world like all true spiritual masters are, but he has no powers over people, don't say such ridiculous things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted July 9, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 more - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sri_Chinmoy_Information/ "I think that the content of Realize Me exposes the psychosis of SC. For him to encourage worship of himself, he places himself in a very deranged class. Although, I suppose the party line is that he is equal to or greater than Jesus Christ, and thus can command that type of reverence." REALISE ME I hope some of you will realise who I am either in this incarnation or in one of your future incarnations. Once you realise who I am, then you do not have to do anything, you do not have to say anything, you do not have to become anything. Once you know who I am, you will make me truly happy and you yourselves will be truly happy. Before you know who I am, I will not be happy and you people will not be happy. So, either in this incarnation or in some of your future incarnations, try to realise me. Then only your earthly journey will be fruitful. Otherwise, many times you have come to earth and many, many more times you will come in the future, but it will all end in vain. So dear children, always keep one thing in mind, and that is to realise me, realise who I eternally am. I am not this body; I am something else. That something else you will realise if you stay in my boat and please me always, always, always in my own way. Think only of me: what I say, not what others say; what I do, not what others do. If you please me, then you have pleased the Real in me; you have pleased the Supreme. If you do not please me, then on matter whom you have pleased, or whom you are going to please, your life will be a barren desert from the beginning to the end. But if you please me in my own way, and if I am satisfied with you, then our Absolute Beloved Supreme is pleased with you. And if He is pleased with you, then there is nothing either on earth or in Heaven that you need. Everything us useless, everybody is useless except the one Reality: the Supreme in your Guru, the Supreme with your Guru, the Supreme for your Guru and the Supreme as your Guru. Realise me. Then only you will discover the meaning of your life. Realise me. Then only satisfaction – Eternity's satisfaction, Infinity's satisfaction, Immortality's satisfaction – will all be yours. Realise me … Realise me… Sri Chinmoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted July 9, 2004 Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 Oh, and Domino, I forgot to mention something important. One important way to test the truth about Sri Chinmoy is to meditate with him. I have gone to meditations sessions. It is such a different feeling. Even if you don't meditate, even before he arrives at the meditation hall where he usually meditates there is such peace and tranquility. You can feel the light. And when you meditate with him, you will sense the difference. Another thing, his music. He may not be a virtuous player and musician (and he is by far not a professional musician as he always says), but you have to listen to his music. I cannot explain. When you are calm and objective, forget about these stupidities that you found on the web. Just go to the website and listen to his music, particularly flute music for meditation and esraj music for meditation. These are music written by him, played by him at a high meditative state. I think you will feel the power of this music. Try to meditate under this music, even if not meditate, you will feel the peace that is coming of this music. I have haerd many types of meditation music, there are good ones indeed, but I have never experienced so much peace and purity, clariy and joy. Do it Domino, be objective, don't rely on people who you don't know, don't even believe me. But one thing you must do is, before making judgement, use your own capacities to evaluate this man. If you fail to get anything, just be honest and state that you don't understand absolutely nothing, and that will be the truth under your circusmstances. But don't bring trash from other sites, you are not a trashman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted July 9, 2004 Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 I know you will not do, but just in case here are the links to music: Esraj http://www.radiosrichinmoy.org/server.php?...ess-Family-Home Flute http://www.radiosrichinmoy.org/server.php?...tion+%281985%29 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted July 9, 2004 Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 Sasun, when I face a liar, I do not supress his freedom os speech unless my freedom of speech is supressed. Now now, don't be a hypocrite Domino. Didn't you want to shut down such websites that contain the words 'Armenia' but are owned by Genocide denying Turks. Don't you want to shut down all genocide denying websites? If you see someone is dedicating resources to create an outlet of lies, don't you want to shut down this outlet of falsehood? Why are you appying double standards? Some people have invested their resources to spread false information and defame Sri Chinmoy. Is it acceptable to spread false information? Is it acceptable to put lies in an encyclopedia? This is not about freedom of speach, this is about containing misinformation and disinformation. And I think that Sri Chinmoy's disciples have not been really forceful about it. If it was me I would chase down every dirty liar and sue them in the court of law. It is not only immoral but also illegal to defame a person. But Sri Chinmoy is from a different category, he is not here to hurt people but only to illumine and help. Domino, don't be offended that I criticize you. There are many good things to say about you, I am crazy about you as an internet buddy and a person with many good qualities, but here you are being a bad person and not really thoughtful. You have taken up negative activities even though you think you are being honest. I can't stand so much falsehood and therefore I am trying to contain to the best of my ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted July 9, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 From a Christian site: What are the "works" of those who purport to be spiritually above the rest of us? What are their devices? What are there rights? You may be surprised at some of what follows, but please bear with me. 1. They have a special calling or revelation for the masses 2. They have been given a special ability to reveal the truth of the scriptures 3. They are on a mission to save mankind in the last days 4. They have a special mission to accomplish for God (Jesus) 5. They are above any other organization or authority 6. They have some special powers not available to others 7. They play on people's fears and emotions like predators Now let us review what some of these so "leaders" have accomplished. Jim Jones' Jonestown- the mass suicide of hundreds of men, women, and children Hale Bop cult - another mass suicide but involving a so called "flying saucer." Europe------ the mass suicide of hundreds in Switzerland of "business type" people Japan------- Subway attacked with poison gas by cultists with deaths and injuries http://www.gcmi.net/moon.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted July 9, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 Sun Yung Moon (the "savior" of our times: " stand before you as one who has received Heaven’s appointment as Savior and True Parent for the sake of liberating and releasing God and, on that foundation, liberating and releasing humankind. I do not come out of a need for money and power, or honor and fame. For more than 80 years, I have lived oblivious to morning or evening, day or night, even weathering the coldest winters and harshest snow and rain, in order to move as quickly as I could along the heavenly path. Even in the torture chamber, where my flesh was torn from my body and I was made to vomit blood, I never prayed for God to save me. Instead, my life has been that of a filial son, patriot, saint, and divine son of Heaven and Earth who sheds tears to comfort God’s heart as He weeps to look upon the tragic state of His children. I left my parents and homeland behind to follow the straight and narrow path to human salvation, that is, the path of true love that lives for the sake of others. My life of never compromising and never acting in a cowardly manner may seem incredibly pitiful and bleak from a worldly point of view. " "I am completing the spiritual conditions on many levels that are needed for God to exercise His authority of all-immanence, all-authority, all-power and all-transcendence." Oh and Domino - perhaps he is your guy eh: "There will be a purge on God's orders, and evil will be eliminated like shadows. Gays will be eliminated, the 3 Israels will unite. If not then they will be burned. We do not know what kind of world God will bring but this is what happens. It will be greater than the communist purge but at God's orders." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted July 9, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 LOL!!! http://www.hinduismtoday.com/archives/1987...987-12-06.shtml Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted July 9, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 (edited) Had to post thi sone - just too good...a comparison (made by an ex-disciple) between Sri Chimnoy & Dracula: (CKG = Chinmoy Kumar Ghose - his name BTW...) I watched the new movie release called "Van Helsing" last night. At one point the vampire refers to the people around him (his cult following) as "puppets of my power". Immediately I had an insight into CKG, who said to Penny, as he gestured to choke her "I am very strong". The vampire begins by sucking energy (lifeblood) from a victim and then turns the victim into a cult follower who executes his every wish. He is hungry for power and sex. The false guru does something similar. He wants a cult following of many human bodies and minds who can pour energy into him (sometimes via meditating on his picture), (sometimes by sex on demand) or into his projects, such as making him famous, in order to draw new blood into his orbit of influence. He is impressed with his own power and wants his followers to become his worshipful admirers (hence an endless series of public displays of strength in weight lifting). There is a coterie of female followers with whom he has selective sexual relations. Dracula is referred to as "the master" in the movie, and he lives a life which is remote from the real world (like CKG), but which is supported by his cult followers who do everything he asks. There are many interesting parallels. If you see the movie, you may notice the striking resemblance even more vividly. There is a pattern of abuse, violent disregard of others' integrity, etc, etc... a remarkable number of parallels between the vampire and the false guru." Also - lol: Obedience, Love, Devotion, Surrender, Manifestation, Oneness, and Gratitude : OLDSMOG Edited July 9, 2004 by THOTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted July 9, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 This one is a very nice summation. I think you are right Domino - this guy is as bad as Moon & all the rest....I thought he was a mostly harmless conartist - but it seems he is much worse... "I married my hippy spiritual girlfriend in 1971 and we blissfully found our guru the same year. We became the de facto leaders of one of Chinmoy's branch centers. It was quite early in the history of the Centre, and there were a lot of kids our age, all bright eyed and energetic and idealistic. We bought into the sadhana - very little sleep, morning meditation, read only the guru's books, selfless service. Then came the running - training in the middle of the night for marathons and ultra-marathons. I was the owner of a small business with 8 or 10 employees, and so the sadhana was all on top of 10 or 12 hour work days. The worst pressure of it all was having to memorize the guru's hastily composed Bengali songs. Some of the tunes were delightful, but there was the constant pressure that every spare waking moment should really be spent memorizing incomprehensible lyrics to songs with no key or time signature. I was becoming increasingly estranged from my wife. She was away on trips serving the guru, or when she was home we had less and less interaction. Our sex life (and all other affection) trickled to a halt, which confused and saddened me. She had been my adventure pal in college, and now we hardly talked. At first we disciples were told that Alo Devi was the divine mother and to worship her. Then after a couple years the guru told a small group of us that really she had lost her realization and she was a complete pain in the ass and we should humor her. This created a huge schism in the community between those who "knew" and those who "didn't know". Those who didn't know were expected to worship her, in the face of those who knew - which made the not-knows look like idiots. Those who knew were being trained in the art of insincerity and deception. There was a lot of that. Although the guru gave lip service to friendships, he watched them closely and was often able to divide people who got too close. He insisted on the disclosure of any private information shared between friends. I hope my old friend Savyasachi is OK. I know that his heart was broken many years ago when the guru forced him to separate from his wife Lavanya whom he loved dearly. But he was never able to admit this or speak about it. The bad paintings (there were a few good ones), the bad poems (also some good ones), and all the other performances and showings done in the name of quantity and self-aggrandizement were hard for me to swallow. I grew up in a family of artists, taught to edit what I did and bring the best to show. Chinmoy's brazen approach to "art" was quite an exercise in surrender for me. I remember fidgeting through an esraj concert at Carnegie Hall, feeling so embarrassed for us all. The esraj sounded like a sick cat, the tempos of the songs were erratic, and the disciples were mostly sitting in rapt attention with folded hands. This is not to say that I was not a guru Nazi in my own way for quite a few years. I cracked the whip, gave lectures, hung posters, delivered ice cold edicts from the master, and tried to keep the troops marching in the same direction. I also saw some people treated really badly. I saw Carlos' wife being praised to the skies in front of the inner circle on the front porch and then called a "black bitch" one hour later to the same group (and none of us said a word). I saw heavy women have to show up for public "weigh-ins", trying to lose weight wearing rubber training suits and driving around in cars with the heat cranked up in the winter, terrified of the humiliation. One time, on one day's notice, I wa asked to fly to New York to build the guru a tennis court. I left my business for a month which left it in shambles. When I was a few days from completing the task, it was taken away from me and I was sent home because he did not like my consciousness. Someone else finished it. There was no real explanation. There were good times too. We had hilarious skits. The running was painful, but built self confidence. I learned about printing, and public relations, and public speaking. There were some powerful meditations - both silent and while singing those damn Bengali songs. Finally after eleven years I ran out of steam. I left the Centre with a woman I had met there. We were immediately ostracized. After working very very hard for that community through my 20's, not a single friend was allowed (or had the courage) to speak with me. Since that time, many have left the Centre and and a few are among my closest friends. Our definition of friendship now is so much broader than even what I could have imagined back then. My life has moved in many ways since leaving that community: a long time marriage, a teenage daughter (we're very close), a much larger business venture, and many years of inner work in a wide range of disciplines. One of the turning points in my own awakening came about eight years after I left the Centre, when my first wife (who had also left by then) confided in me about the sexual relations that she had had with the guru starting in our second year of discipleship and continuing until after my departure. Her disclosure explained the strange separation we had experienced, and also freed me from any lingering uncertainties about who Chinmoy really was. I had left the Centre with an ambiguous "maybe he is a great master, but it is time for me to leave". After her revelations I was able to cut the cords still connecting me to Chinmoy and finally completely take back my own life. As angry as I was for this dark betrayal, I was also grateful for this truth which gave me back my independence. In hindsight, the Chinmoy experience was focused on the heart chakra and above. The chakras below were ignored. We developed light and access and some opening in these upper areas, but the rest of our beings atrophied. I believe now that life on this earth is about being present, fully, awake, here, and now in every situation that life reveals to us, from head to foot. I came out of the Centre quite educated about some aspects of life, and completely clueless about others. This is not about street smarts - I am talking about our deep loving humanness - which was ignored in the Centre. Chinmoy is a dark master; a kind of sorcerer. He is very skillful and deceptive. He lives off of the energy of others. He will say that he feeds his disciples, but I am convinced that he actually feeds from them - financially, emotionally, sexually, psychicly. From the inside, his story is convincing. I was convinced for eleven years. But from the outside, his story does not hold up in the world. A good story has life no matter where it is told - his only lives inside itself. Once the cords are fully cut, he has no hold. My first wife (now a good friend) and I have talked from time to time about what we should do, if anything, about what we know. We usually take satisfaction enough in knowing that when he had us, we fed him mightily, and now we feed him not all." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted July 9, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 Man - it just gets worse... http://www.chinmoycult.com/ (the next one is from the (ex) wife of the guy whose letter I posted earlier...) - very sad...not only sexual abuse (likened to incest - but basically forcing these girls [dozens aparently] to abort as well...nasty) http://www.chinmoycult.com/testimonials/sex1.htm ..not planning to have kids are you Sasun? Herr Guru may not like that.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 10, 2004 Report Share Posted July 10, 2004 Sasun, it is obvious that we will never agree here about this man. Believe me, I do not trash on someone without having read about that person. First, my answer regarding art was as an answer to your allusion that masterpiece is absolutly relative, as if everything can be masterpieces. Art critics(those that criticise based on experience) do not judge only based on their feelings, great painters are not famous(most of the time) because some people liked their arts. Great painters are most of the time known because they have innovated their medium, because their style was new for the era, etc... The same goes with poems, I don't know very well English litterature, but think know pretty well the French one. A poet is famous because of his unusual style, in a way that when you read him, you'll say it is him, when you read his immitations you know it is his style that those immitators are trying to reflect. The same goes with music. Beethoven is famous for a reason, just listen to his sonatas like the Pathetic. Onces you learn his style, and Anoushik here could comment, you can hear a composition from him that you have never heard and know it is from him, if you are mistaken, the chance are great that the composition in question will be from his contemporaries. The point here is about Chonmoys art. It is supposed to be devine, spiritual, afterall he compares himself with Jesus, Buddha etc...but he has no talent, and I am saying this honestly, his musics are "durty" music, his paintings have no style proper to him, believe me I can reproduce his paintings with more beatiful agencings and at least with a style and I won't claim a devine intervention if I do it. His poems messages are only those that the reader will find, like this same reader will be able to do reading any other poems. My knowledge of English is limited I know, but I still can differenciate a trash from the rest. I don't know why you are protecting this man so much, because obviously he does not worth all the attention you give to him, you are more illuminated than this man, and am sure you can make more sense, why don't you start a thread and post your philosophies? You know I don't like that man, it doesn't smell well at all. Now a little correction, people know here that I am against silencing Turkish denialists as long as I am given freedom of speech, if you let talk one side, you must let talk the other side, yes! I have been for silencing few people in the past, like Dan, because sometimes there is limit for freedom of speech. The sites that were closed and all the infuelnces that this guru have speaks volumes of his true intentions. This man after all the powers he has still try to silence his critics, if he thinks he is telling the truth, why the need to try to silence others? You know when I knew that I know enough about the Armenian genocide? It happened when I realised that I didn't cared about the existance of denialist sites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted July 10, 2004 Report Share Posted July 10, 2004 Sasun, it is obvious that we will never agree here about this man. Domino, I will never agree with accusing an innocent man. I will never agree with you because I happen to know Sri Chinmoy's path for several years, I know people in real life and interact, talk, inquire, learn about their lifestyles and activities. I know quite a lot of Sri Chinmoy's teachings and practice, I have meditated with him, I have meditated with his disciples, I have witnessed with my own eyes his weight lifting. All I know are based on facts. Unlike me, all you know is allegations made by a few disgrantled ex-disiples and dubious people on the internet who claim to have been disciples but none of Sri Chinmoy's centers has ever heard about them.(This is not a huge network we are talking about, people know each other very well.) All this you just got recently by doing a search on the web, and you think you know all. Therefore your beliefs are based on thin air, and your arguments are void and null. Believe me, I do not trash on someone without having read about that person. You cannot be trusted to be a fair judge in this matter. From the beginning you were prejudiced against gurus. Now you have an opportunity to project your prejudice and dislike using dubious material. You are unfair in your argument because you do not listen to both sides. Statistics does not really matter in determining the truth, but I am telling again, for each allegation that you have read there are many statements by current as well as ex-disciples proving the opposite. If you think you are honest then listen to both sides and open yourself to reason rather than prejudice. First, my answer regarding art was as an answer to your allusion that masterpiece is absolutly relative, as if everything can be masterpieces. Art critics(those that criticise based on experience) do not judge only based on their feelings, great painters are not famous(most of the time) because some people liked their arts. Great painters are most of the time known because they have innovated their medium, because their style was new for the era, etc... The same goes with poems, I don't know very well English litterature, but think know pretty well the French one. A poet is famous because of his unusual style, in a way that when you read him, you'll say it is him, when you read his immitations you know it is his style that those immitators are trying to reflect. The same goes with music. Beethoven is famous for a reason, just listen to his sonatas like the Pathetic. Onces you learn his style, and Anoushik here could comment, you can hear a composition from him that you have never heard and know it is from him, if you are mistaken, the chance are great that the composition in question will be from his contemporaries. The point here is about Chonmoys art. It is supposed to be devine, spiritual, afterall he compares himself with Jesus, Buddha etc...but he has no talent, and I am saying this honestly, his musics are "durty" music, his paintings have no style proper to him, believe me I can reproduce his paintings with more beatiful agencings and at least with a style and I won't claim a devine intervention if I do it. His poems messages are only those that the reader will find, like this same reader will be able to do reading any other poems. My knowledge of English is limited I know, but I still can differenciate a trash from the rest. First, you are not competent to judge about artistic values, neither am I, nor anyone has any authority to make absolute evaluations of artistic performance. Having said that, not Sri Chinmoy, not any of his disciples, not me have said that Sri Chinmoy is a great painter, musician, or a poet. But there are people who have found much spiritual value in his music, poetry and paintings. I happen to be one of them, even though I have little understanding of art. There are paintings and music by Sri Chinmoy that I simply do not understand. I can't say that they are bad, I can only say that I don't understand. But there are some pieces that are incredibly powerful because they have much spirituality. This is spiritual power and spiritual value. That is my opinion, other people find such values in other pieces as well. Having said this, let me remind you that some genius artists have been terribly unappreciated in their time only to be appreciated at a later age. For example, Bach. It is beyond imagination that his music could not be appreciated at any time, but it is a fact that it was not during his lifetime and some time after. And you talking about divinity Domino... since when have you become an expert in divinity. Aren't you an agnostic? I don't know why you are protecting this man so much, because obviously he does not worth all the attention you give to him, you are more illuminated than this man, and am sure you can make more sense, why don't you start a thread and post your philosophies? Obviously you are clueless Domino. I am flattered that you think I have philosophies, I do not. But since you think that I am insightful enough to have philosopies can't you give me credit that I maybe right in finding value in Sri Chinmoy and defending him? You know I don't like that man, it doesn't smell well at all. I am not surprised at all, you have been through a pile of smelly garbage that you found on the internet. But in your defense I must point that one of the liars is really skillful, so you maybe really duped and unaware. She (or he?) almost got me once with the horror stories even though I was not a novice. That is the reason Sri Chinmoy tells his disciples to cut the ties with disgrantled members, because the only thing they do is cause doubts and controversies thus affecting their spiritual development. The sites that were closed and all the infuelnces that this guru have speaks volumes of his true intentions. This man after all the powers he has still try to silence his critics, if he thinks he is telling the truth, why the need to try to silence others? If you say one more time about this power and influence I will conclude that you are loosing your mind. As Vivekananda would say, take some rest, have some good food and consult a doctor. You have been influenced by delusional people. You know when I knew that I know enough about the Armenian genocide? It happened when I realised that I didn't cared about the existance of denialist sites. That maybe the right approach in this case. But this is a different case. Imagine someone puts up a website accusing you of sex abuse. Woud you not care to do something about this site? As to closing sites and silencing people, don't be so sure, those claims are based on air. Although I consider shutting down these sites exactly the thing to do when a saint's pure name is being defamed. The fact remains that there are plenty of defaming sites around as you very well can see, otherwise where would you get your so called information. In that case Sri Chinmoy is not that "powerful", is he? As to sex abuse claims, this is quite an absurd allegation. Even if one knows nothing about the person accused, who in his right mind will preach celibacy if his goal is to get sex? What kind of a stupidity is it to make this claim? In this age, in New York isn't there and easier way to find a sex partner? And can't you people use your brains? This is America, people get sued over all kinds of silly things. With such serious abuse claims, how come there has not been a single lawsuit? Because those scumbags know that lawsuit is not a good strategy as they would loose. So they will continue their malicious practice by duping the uninformed web surfers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 10, 2004 Report Share Posted July 10, 2004 (edited) Sasun, stop being on the defensive, obviously your view regarding the man is biased. My search regarding the man is not new. This man disgusted me for quite some time now; I just had the occasion only recently to answer. Your comparison with the Turkish cases was not a good one, and you know it. Here the deniers are Chinmoys side. And no, people that are accusing him are not only unknown people, I propose you to read few of the descriptions, they pretty well know exactly where the followers meet, their trips etc… you tell me that the accusations were made by ex-disciples and then claim that no one heard of the accusers. I know those claims are the main justifications of Chinmoy. How can they be ex-disciples and then be unknown from the present disciples? Are you not the one saying that everyone knows eachothers. Your claim regarding artistic values is not accurate, I’m sure that Armat and Anoushik here will agree with me. It is true that many artists that are famous now, during their periods were never considered. It is one of the reasons why their art are master-pieces. It is not for nothing that they are called “master-pieces” in French, the word “master” here is translated as “Chef,” and it is about evolution in art. The reason why those artists were ignored was because of their new style that was not accepted in their society. Have you ever looked at Van Gogh paintings and compared it with those painted during his period? Have you ever listened to Bachs Cello Suites? So energetic, so universal, so… those are masterpieces like very rarely there will be. Whatever or not someone believes in the divine or not, he’ll feel this greatness, these spiritual pieces of art. On the other hand, my critic of Chinmoys art is not based on the fact that what he does is not common or not an accepted style(the reason why many artists were not liked), but rather his lack of style, his imitation of others etc… the artistic value of his work is worthless. And no, unlike what he claim, it is not only a question of finding a message or not in his work. Your argument that others could find such “values”(I don’t understand why you used that word) in other work does not necessarily support your point, to the contrary it undermine Chinmoys art. Because it means that it is only based on whatever you like it or not. Look I have not said that his art could not be liked, I like some of his paintings and his music, but it is not liking that makes a pieces a masterpiece. Like I already said, what makes it a masterpieces is the way the artist express himself being unusual, a style proper to him, something new. Art in this matter is very similar to science, a scientist that is remembered is a scientist that find a new thing, research in a new area etc… usually we do not remember scientists that only repeat what others have done. What is the point? The point is that Chinmoys art is not the divine inspiration he is trying to portray it. And it doesn’t take someone believing in the divine to understand that it is not something special. And no, I’m not really an agnostic, I am a probabilistic. Coming to Chinmoys words and their values. No dough about it. So what? The point here is, does he bring something exceptional, something we don’t know about? Something new? He recycle Asian philosophies, belief etc… and is telling himself why don’t he worth a piece of the cake that Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, or whomever have. You know what? The day this man go to India and does what Mother Theresa has done for only 3 years(while Theresa did it for decades), I will be the first one asking to give him a place in history like other great man. Until then, this man is like Rael and other Gurus of any types. At least with the Raelians, you know what to expect regarding sexual interactions. And please do not start with the BS that all those things are lies, the accusations or not coming only from few people. What have you to say regarding the fact that John McLaughlin left the group? Look I’m not going to tell you here what about this man, I’m sure you already heard the story. And not it isn’t delusion, neither are they delusional, you are sounding like a Turkish denialist here Sasun. “That maybe the right approach in this case. But this is a different case. Imagine someone puts up a website accusing you of sex abuse. Woud you not care to do something about this site? As to closing sites and silencing people, don't be so sure, those claims are based on air. Although I consider shutting down these sites exactly the thing to do when a saint's pure name is being defamed. The fact remains that there are plenty of defaming sites around as you very well can see, otherwise where would you get your so called information. In that case Sri Chinmoy is not that "powerful", is he?” How can you say such things? The accusations are not only about few people Sasun… while Chinmoy has free hand to claim what ever he wants, he does everything in his power to close sites. And no, I’m against closing sites as long as they are not beyond freedom of speech, and it is easy to see what are what aren’t. Ataa is not beyond freedom of speech, tallarmeniantales is, because there IS verifiable facts that there is forgeries, quotes that don’t exist, wordings altered etc… or the comparison of Armenians with animals etc… You see, it is evident what can be posted on the web, and what can not be. The accusations against Chinmoy are like any other accusations, those writing them say being victims, using your logic, cilicia.com should be closed because it contains a section where people post the memoirs of people from their family. Where I get the information? Sasun, you have no problem when people get their informations regarding Chinmoy from his own site, have you? “As to sex abuse claims, this is quite an absurd allegation. Even if one knows nothing about the person accused, who in his right mind will preach celibacy if his goal is to get sex? What kind of a stupidity is it to make this claim? In this age, in New York isn't there and easier way to find a sex partner? And can't you people use your brains? This is America, people get sued over all kinds of silly things. With such serious abuse claims, how come there has not been a single lawsuit? Because those scumbags know that lawsuit is not a good strategy as they would loose. So they will continue their malicious practice by duping the uninformed web surfers.” Do I need to remind you all the cases where a guru preached for his followers’ celibacy while he was accused of sexual abuses? As for why they do not sue him, in every such groups usually it takes decades before the abused decide the sue the aggressor, I can propose you few books regarding the mentality of the abused, it is not that simple believe me. It is like the kids being abused by priests… Edited July 10, 2004 by Fadix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted July 12, 2004 Report Share Posted July 12, 2004 (edited) Sasun, stop being on the defensive, obviously your view regarding the man is biased. Stop attacking without knowing the truth. I am not being defensive, I am defending an innocent man's pure name against vicious attacks of some troubled people with whom you decided to join. My search regarding the man is not new. This man disgusted me for quite some time now; I just had the occasion only recently to answer. You don't know anything about this man. You were disgusted at made-up stories that have nothing to do with this man. Your comparison with the Turkish cases was not a good one, and you know it. Here the deniers are Chinmoys side. And no, people that are accusing him are not only unknown people, I propose you to read few of the descriptions, they pretty well know exactly where the followers meet, their trips etc… I didn't compare with the Turkish case. I only showed your hypocricy. You opened a thread ( http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=7522 ) to propose that Turkish denialist sites be shut down "where in the address the word Armenian is writen". But in case of websites slandering Sri Chinmoy and using his name, you cry foul that sites were closed. First of all, it is only a claim that sites were closed by Sri Chinmoy. Second of all, as your own thread suggests it is perfectly legal to close such sites that use Sri Chinmoy's name by someone else. Yet we see that such sites freely exists, e.g. www.srichinmoycult.com could be very easily legally shut down using the info provided by you. Yet it operates freely. So the claim that Sri Chinmoy uses some invisible powers to shut down sites is a plain lie. The other time I mentioned genocide deniers was to remind you how a lie can be told so that it seems very truthful to the uninformed person. But such lies live only until they are countered with facts. You are very well aware of it, but here again you are not considering it as a possible scenario because you are biased. And your opinion that deniers are on Sri Chinmoy's site is not the truth. The truth is that Sri Chinmoy and his disciples are being attacked by some ex-disciples and other dubious names on the internet. Sri Chinmoy's defenders are not denying the truth, they are refuting false accusations. you tell me that the accusations were made by ex-disciples and then claim that no one heard of the accusers. I know those claims are the main justifications of Chinmoy. How can they be ex-disciples and then be unknown from the present disciples? Are you not the one saying that everyone knows eachothers. You did not read carefully what I said. The accusations are made by known ex-desciples and (also) some names that claim to be ex-disciples but nobody in any center has ever heard about them. Your claim regarding artistic values is not accurate, I’m sure that Armat and Anoushik here will agree with me. It is true that many artists that are famous now, during their periods were never considered. It is one of the reasons why their art are master-pieces. It is not for nothing that they are called “master-pieces” in French, the word “master” here is translated as “Chef,” and it is about evolution in art. The reason why those artists were ignored was because of their new style that was not accepted in their society. Have you ever looked at Van Gogh paintings and compared it with those painted during his period? Have you ever listened to Bachs Cello Suites? So energetic, so universal, so… those are masterpieces like very rarely there will be. Whatever or not someone believes in the divine or not, he’ll feel this greatness, these spiritual pieces of art. On the other hand, my critic of Chinmoys art is not based on the fact that what he does is not common or not an accepted style(the reason why many artists were not liked), but rather his lack of style, his imitation of others etc… the artistic value of his work is worthless. And no, unlike what he claim, it is not only a question of finding a message or not in his work. Your argument that others could find such “values”(I don’t understand why you used that word) in other work does not necessarily support your point, to the contrary it undermine Chinmoys art. Because it means that it is only based on whatever you like it or not. Look I have not said that his art could not be liked, I like some of his paintings and his music, but it is not liking that makes a pieces a masterpiece. Like I already said, what makes it a masterpieces is the way the artist express himself being unusual, a style proper to him, something new. Art in this matter is very similar to science, a scientist that is remembered is a scientist that find a new thing, research in a new area etc… usually we do not remember scientists that only repeat what others have done. I am not going to debate about art. I have my own understanding and that is the only thing I need to have. In this regard I find a huge amout of spiritual value (meaning spiritual significance) in Sri Chimoy's art hence I make my conclusion about its author. What is the point? The point is that Chinmoys art is not the divine inspiration he is trying to portray it. That is not what Sri Chinmoy says. This is what Sri Chinmoy says about his art ( http://www.srichinmoyart.com/jharna_kala ): “The whole picture does not come to me at once. As I start painting, I see a streak of light right ahead of me and devotedly I try to follow that streak of light. But on some rare occasions the light is so powerful that I envision the painting long before I have actually touched the paper, I don’t bring it forth; it comes to the fore from within, In the light the colour is there. Each time I see the streak of light, I see the colour.” “Paintings are there on the subtle plane, but we have to use paint to manifest them. It is like a river, the river is flowing down from the subtle plane, in this case the creative plane, and when it touches the earth, at that time it takes form and becomes creation itself.” And it doesn’t take someone believing in the divine to understand that it is not something special. You are mistaken, if you could see the divine you would be a believer in God. And no, I’m not really an agnostic, I am a probabilistic. To my mind a probabilistic should give probabilities rather than making absolute assertions and claims as you are doing. Coming to Chinmoys words and their values. No dough about it. So what? The point here is, does he bring something exceptional, something we don’t know about? Something new? He recycle Asian philosophies, belief etc… and is telling himself why don’t he worth a piece of the cake that Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, or whomever have. You know very little about Sri Chinmoy's path, and it is mostly hearsay. You never really understood (if you ever read) what Sri Chinmoy's message is. His path is new, and much that he says is unique. However, the Truth is one, and Sri Chinmoy is talking about that Truth as a representative of that Truth. Therefore, it cannot be different from what other representatives of Truth have said since ancient times. There are only modifications built upon the past knowledge. But if someone brings something entirely new and contradicting all previous masters that is a sure sign of a charlatan. And BTW, I am not sure what you mean mentioning the names of Jesus, Buddha and Krishna but contrary to some claims on the internet Sri Chinmoy has never placed himself above or even equal to the above mentioned figures. If you think otherwise you must quote directly from Sri Chinmoy saying that and not misrepresentatation on the internet. You know what? The day this man go to India and does what Mother Theresa has done for only 3 years(while Theresa did it for decades), I will be the first one asking to give him a place in history like other great man. What do you think Sri Chinmoy is doing? If you were in prison would you care for a piece of charity food or your right for liberation? I have tremendous respect for Mother Theresa, but she did not teach people God-realization (liberation). She selflessly offered her help to the needy, and that is a divine action. I think that she is truley a saint. However, the highest help one can offer is to help achieve God-realization, that is exactly what Sri Chinmoy is doing. Humanitarian help is also necessary for someone to have sufficient support in order to go for a spiritual development as most people cannot do it with an empty stomach. As I mentioned before and you ignored, Sri Chinmoy has been organizing humanitarian aid in many countries although that is not his main function. Since you mentioned about Mother Theresa here is something for you, I am quite sure you have not read it http://www.srichinmoy.org/html/kind_words/mother_teresa.html . Until then, this man is like Rael and other Gurus of any types. At least with the Raelians, you know what to expect regarding sexual interactions. You could not be more wrong comparing to Raelians. And please do not start with the BS that all those things are lies, the accusations or not coming only from few people. I call lies lies. Please bring facts if you have any. What have you to say regarding the fact that John McLaughlin left the group? What about it? Many disciples have left for various reasons. To have a disciplined life is indeed tough, and a lot of them leave for that reason, some leave because they get tired, some leave because they loose faith that they can ever achieve God-ralizations, some leave because they develop mistrust that Sri Chimnoy can help them, or they have other issues, some leave because although they believe Sri Chinmoy is a true Guru but he is not right for them (indeed Sri Chinmoy has always said one should find the right spiritual master), some leave because they long for a family life and worldly life, there are all kinds of reasons... and some also get expelled because they break the rules more than acceptable. As far as I know John McLaughlin and Santana were good disciples for some years, then they decided to leave and after leaving they would remember their disciple years with their ex-guru with kind memories. They even kept using their spiritual names given by Sri Chinmoy for some time. But I remember also one of them (or both of them) had some ideological differences regarding gay issues or something and also could not take any more the strict lifestyle. However, this has nothing to do with abuse and I don't even know why you are mentioning. Look I’m not going to tell you here what about this man, I’m sure you already heard the story. I don't know what you are talking about, but I am guessing you have read another false story about McLaughlin told by someone else than McLoughlin. And not it isn’t delusion, neither are they delusional, you are sounding like a Turkish denialist here Sasun. I called delusion those claims that Sri Chinmoy possesses some invisible "powers and influences" like masonic organizations. That is really a delusion. How can you say such things? The accusations are not only about few people Sasun… while Chinmoy has free hand to claim what ever he wants, he does everything in his power to close sites. And no, I’m against closing sites as long as they are not beyond freedom of speech, and it is easy to see what are what aren’t. Ataa is not beyond freedom of speech, tallarmeniantales is, because there IS verifiable facts that there is forgeries, quotes that don’t exist, wordings altered etc… or the comparison of Armenians with animals etc… You see, it is evident what can be posted on the web, and what can not be. I already addressed the issue of closing sites. Now you need to provide some proofs of such sites closed by Sri Chinmoy, and I do mean proofs, not claims that sites were closed. I doubt you will find, but if you find any then you should also prove that closing those sites were illegal or wrong, and how that affected freedom of speech while it is quite obvious how much freedom of speech the accusers have. I asked a question you didn't answer, so I ask again. If someone made a website and claimed that Domino has sexually abused people, would you not care to do something about this website? The accusations against Chinmoy are like any other accusations, those writing them say being victims, using your logic, cilicia.com should be closed because it contains a section where people post the memoirs of people from their family. Where I get the information? Sasun, you have no problem when people get their informations regarding Chinmoy from his own site, have you? That is not a right comparison. For serious accusations proofs are necessary not claims. But if you want to learn the truth about someone you should not rely on his enemies claims. You should also hear the other side. As far as using Sri Chinmoy's sites, that is the best way to get information about Sri Chinmoy's teachings and philosophy, in sum his path. There is really much information available, almost all his 1400 books are available to read for free. Those accusers also have misquoted Sri Chinmoy, that is not acceptable to bring so called quotes as evidence. One should go to the official site and quote, or qoute from published books. So yes, in most cases to form an opinion about someones teachings you should exactly use his website. And by the way, those websites contain absolutely nothing about any allegations, neither pro nor con. Do I need to remind you all the cases where a guru preached for his followers’ celibacy while he was accused of sexual abuses? No, enough with accusations, it is time that you start bring real proofs. If you prefer to go by claims, then you are doing a very poor job. Let's say the hypothesis is that Sri Chinmoy's disciples are abused. On one hand there are a few ex-disciples that make this claim. On the other hand, there are hundreds of disciples as well as ex-disciples that will simply call this claim nonsense. If you are an honest investigator, and on top of that a probabilistic, then you should see that the probability of your hypothesis being true is really really small. But instead of that you prefer to make an absolute claim. As for why they do not sue him, in every such groups usually it takes decades before the abused decide the sue the aggressor, I can propose you few books regarding the mentality of the abused, it is not that simple believe me. It is like the kids being abused by priests… The argument is ligically faulty. It makes no sense that a man is seeking to have sex and preaching celibacy. You may bring a million books alleging the contrary but as long as you don't offer a valid, logically correct reasoning those books will prove nothing. Anyone can write books full of lies and sell. And I know about other allegations of so-called 'cult groups'. They are mostly fabrications and rubbish. I also know about research exposing these anti-cult groups dishonest tactics how they induce vulnerable people to quit spiritual paths, or induce those who have already left, to tell that they were sexually abused. Something must be reminded: spiritual paths are usually strict and take a lot of psychological strenght to indure all the difficulties. Some people cannot stand and they leave, but they usually have psychological disorders after leaving although that is not always the case. I am not saying that they become crazy but they feel some kind of irrelevance and seek for answers. Then come these anti-cult groups and sort of give them the "answer" as to why they joined and left, and the "answer" is because they were abused sexually or otherwise. This seems like a good answer for the person, hence he/she sort of attempts to regain his normal life with a "good" explanation. They do with either concsiously or subconciously, hence the myth of "cult abuse". Some of these anti-cult group activists pose as psychologists and give harmful psychological advices to the "cult victim", but it turns out that they lacked proper training, they were only a social worker or some such. This way they damage both the patient and the spiritual path. As for alleged victims waiting decades to tell what happened, that makes no sense unless the victim was a child. It is understandable that a child abused by a priest must grow up, become fully conscious and confident to expose abuse. But in case of adults, it is unlikely. But suppose that some are shy and need time to gain confidence or a psychological fix. But that does not apply in case of the accusers of Sri Chinmoy's path. These are not shy people because they are already making these accusations abundantly. You cannot say that they need to wait decades in order to take the next step and go to the court of law. It makes no sense why they should wait. Celibate priests molesting children, it is a significantly different issue. Priests are institutionalized, they are doing their job, getting paid and supported by their institution or congregation. Celibacy is part of their status, they get paid for their celibacy. The other thing is that their victims are children, not adult women. So as monstrous and illegal and immoral it is, in child abuse technically they are not breaking their vow for celibacy. It is different with gurus. They have no reason to preach celibacy, and it certainly does not bring any profits, and generally they are not after profits. On the contrary, fake gurus who require fees but not celibacy make so much money because they have many more followers having the condition of celibacy removed and the path made much easier. Plus they can have sex 'legitimately'. I hope that you can see how it makes no sense to preach celibacy and seek sex. Oh and one more thing about the accusers of Sri Chinmoy, if they are right and they are indeed trying to protect others from this path they should immediately apply to law inforcement agencies. That is not what they are doing, for several years they have been telling lies publicly and sending harrassing emails to the present disciples. Domino, normally I would not bother to write so much. But this is an issue I really care. I don't know about others, for me Sri Chinmoy is a saint and a great spiritual master. Saints must be held in high regard and their names never allowed to be defamed. Perhaps for many he is just a man, but even in that case he is an innocent man. Before you put charges against somone you should verify your sources. While you are not responsible for false information found on the internet, your become responsible as soon as you start disseminating it or basing conclusions on it. You may call me biased but I am for the truth. In my time I have nearly fell in the trap of the accusers and been doubtful. But those accusations are only accusations, there are no facts. Edited July 12, 2004 by Sasun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted July 12, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2004 Catholic priests are men of God too are they not? I can now see why Sasun is so defensive and resolute concerning his beliefs....(sad) I see nothing inherently wrong with Chinmoy's teachings/sayings etc...most are very nice thoughts...though I don't see them as the do all and end all (and of course I cannot accept that they are divinely inspired...any more then anyone elses insights/thoughts....) and I don't find them all that "special" or necessitating worship and special recognition...but there is no doubt that power corrupts...and he does seem to have a pattern of self-agrandizement and actions that - IMO - run counter to his messages. I also see these allegations (sex, control & use & abuses, sucking funds dry & such...) and defections of members as clear signs of typical cult behavior... To me Christianity is a "cult" too.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 12, 2004 Report Share Posted July 12, 2004 (edited) Sasun, I have to admit that I am REALLY disturbed of what you have posted. I had to read it many times to be sure that I was not misunderstanding what you wrote, because what you tell here in this last post not only is nearly identical to what Turkish denialists claim, but as well identical to the way the Turkish denialists describes the Armenians and the victims. I propose you to read the testimonials, ALL OF THEM!!! Before calling them liars, read what they say. I smell what a lie is and what isn’t and I’m ready to bet what you want that those are genuine testimonials for many reasons. First all of them without exceptions have nearly an identical story and the identical description of Chinmoys reactions… there are passages from those testimonials that have no purposes to exist if they were lies, unless the one that wrote it has an IQ well above average. Here an example of a passage I was talking about. “I guarantee you God will not be mad at you and your soul will not punish you. Pray to God to guide you and show you the reality of things. I hope you open your eyes and realize what is the truth of it all. You deserve better than this. It should be your choice whether you are a vegetarian or not, or if you wear Indian clothing or not, or if you contact your family or not, not his command. You should not be forced to do anything you do not want to do. You are a free soul, you have the right to love and fall in love, to have children, to have a family, to go to the movies and dance, thats why you are here, to be free and love God and one another but not under the command of anyone.” The one here is an alleged victim addressing to those in the cult. Have at least some respect for potential victims Sasun, open yours eyes… stop being BRAINWASHED!!! Yes! you are brainwashed here, it takes someone brainwashed to call potential victims as liars… while you tell me why I am so absolute here, you do the same… in your conception Chinmoy is a saint, so everyone of those accusations are lies, because as being a saint he could not do those things that are said about him.(like the conception that the Turks as being turks could not have committed a genocide) And yes! McLaughlin left the group because of what Chinmoy was doing with his wife. He admitted it during an interview to the author of the book: “A Spiritual Guide to the World’s Religious Traditions.” (Peter Occhiogrosso) Are you claiming that this person lied as well? Why has McLaughlin not denied the authors claim? Obviously you are brainwashed here Sasun. The reason why you are protecting him is beyond my understanding, where is your reason? Please once read the testimonials, ONCE!!! Coming now to the web-sites, I understand that you are doing everything to protect a man that does not worth to be protected, but PLEASE don’t make me say things I have not said. Yes! I said that some sites had to be closed, but this has nothing to do with the materials they contain but rather the address of the site that is meant to mislead people into believing that the site was done by the people that the address of the site was named after. I was referring to “people” here, and not about an individual. The site about Chinmoy cult clearly state it is about the cult, it is build by a victim of the system that was Chinmoys center. I have read and analysed enough lies for years to smell right away if a testimonial is suspicious or not. At another site I have analysed various testimonials made by people claiming to be victims of a crime. Suspicious testimonials the very large majority of times lack important elements. Suppose that we are facing a good liar, but that all of them are good liars, this statistically is not likely at all. In this cases if they are lying, they are ALL hell of a good liar with an IQ above average. Coming to art, you quote Chinmoy, actually what I understand from that quote is exactly what I have told you, he do claim divine inspiration. “I am not sure what you mean mentioning the names of Jesus, Buddha and Krishna but contrary to some claims on the internet Sri Chinmoy has never placed himself above or even equal to the above mentioned figures. If you think otherwise you must quote directly from Sri Chinmoy saying that and not misrepresentatation on the internet.” Er? He considers himself an Avatar. Does he not? Let define what an avatar is: “(Hindoo Myth.) The descent of a deity to earth, and his incarnation as a man or an animal; -- chiefly associated with the incarnations of Vishnu.” So Mother Theresa communicated with Chinmoy? Who cares? Does this mean anything? “Now you need to provide some proofs of such sites closed by Sri Chinmoy, and I do mean proofs, not claims that sites were closed. I doubt you will find, but if you find any then you should also prove that closing those sites were illegal or wrong, and how that affected freedom of speech while it is quite obvious how much freedom of speech the accusers have.” “Now you need to provide some proofs of such sites closed by Sri Chinmoy, and I do mean proofs, not claims that sites were closed. I doubt you will find, but if you find any then you should also prove that closing those sites were illegal or wrong, and how that affected freedom of speech while it is quite obvious how much freedom of speech the accusers have.” OK! Let make a deal, contact yahoo/geocities, as them why sites regarding Chinmoy that were hosted by them were closed. As I am sure you won’t take my words, I am giving you one place to start with. “I asked a question you didn't answer, so I ask again. If someone made a website and claimed that Domino has sexually abused people, would you not care to do something about this website?” This is irrelevant and you know it. First for me to have abused people I have to have contact with them in the first place. Which mean, I could possibly not abuse people that I have never met. In this case, the ones claimed to have been abused are Chinmoys disciples, people that had contact with him. Secondly, the ones that say having been abused by me have to come up with a credible story. I mean, if they claim having been abused in a place I never have had a foot on, the story wouldn’t be credible. In the cases of the claimed victims of Chinmoy, they know exactly the trips, and schedules of Chinmoy, giving very plausible accounts without making any mistakes on where Chinmoy was and when he was there. Lastly, I would LOVE to have someone claiming that I have abused her, as I will sue her for defamation and ask a lot of money for reparation. “That is not a right comparison. For serious accusations proofs are necessary not claims. But if you want to learn the truth about someone you should not rely on his enemies claims. You should also hear the other side. ” In court of law, credible testimonies that are supported by other testimonials are considered to be evidences, and when we have many such testimonies with accounts that are nearly identical, it is then considered as a strong evidence. When the colleague of Saib during the Turkish military tribunal prepared his testimony and presented an affidavit co-signed by another colleague, the fact that this other colleague version was nearly identical made of the evidence presented as a “proof”(by its juridical definition). Of course this cases was ignored for another reason, that’s another story. Hhhh… What I mean by this is that when you have many testimonials that concord with eachothers, it is enough to charge someone, in this cases there are many people that had no reason to lie, the cases of McLaughlin is an example. Just another victim that has provided her name previously has been threatned by Chinmoy and asked the delete her testimonial. “On one hand there are a few ex-disciples that make this claim. On the other hand, there are hundreds of disciples as well as ex-disciples that will simply call this claim nonsense. If you are an honest investigator, and on top of that a probabilistic, then you should see that the probability of your hypothesis being true is really really small. But instead of that you prefer to make an absolute claim.” This is NONESENSE, this is not how investigations works. You are doing like McCarthy here when he used the Niles-Sutherland commission as an example of investigation. The commission was based on interviewing Muslims and asking them if they really killed Armenians. You can not ask a majority in order to reject the charges of said crime against a minority. First of all, there are testimonies about disciples abusing women. Many have gained from it and have reasons to deny, others don’t know, and there are probably others that see some evidences but are blinded by their faith. “The argument is ligically faulty. It makes no sense that a man is seeking to have sex and preaching celibacy. You may bring a million books alleging the contrary but as long as you don't offer a valid, logically correct reasoning those books will prove nothing. Anyone can write books full of lies and sell. And I know about other allegations of so-called 'cult groups'. They are mostly fabrications and rubbish. ” You ask me to give a “logical” explanation for something that is NOT logical. People do not only act logically in their lives. I mean, when I want to eat a chocolate, there is no “logical” reason… Chinmoy first intentions might have been good, but power corrupt… in this system, as a man he could not fight his basic instincts, this doesn’t need any “logical” explanations, it just happen. While priests may have good intentions to become priests, the system in which they “evolve” can make some of them paedophiles. Having previously good intentions doesn’t mean that you are vaccinated against wrongdoings. As for your claims that the charges against “cult groups” are mostly rubbish, I will suppose I haven’t read it for your own sake. “As for alleged victims waiting decades to tell what happened, that makes no sense unless the victim was a child. It is understandable that a child abused by a priest must grow up, become fully conscious and confident to expose abuse. But in case of adults, it is unlikely. But suppose that some are shy and need time to gain confidence or a psychological fix. But that does not apply in case of the accusers of Sri Chinmoy's path. These are not shy people because they are already making these accusations abundantly. You cannot say that they need to wait decades in order to take the next step and go to the court of law. It makes no sense why they should wait.” Believe me Sasun, you don’t have a clue here of what you are talking about. I propose you to search on the web support groups for people having been abused and raped, the very large majority of those raped by people close to them do not report it because of many factors. Those in a sect are very psychologically dependent of the group, they have left everything for that group, they believe in that man… and then, they are misled. This is typical and a very well known and studied thing. Most of them feel they are to blame, they feel guilt… others have a very strong sentiment of embarrassment. First you tell to everyone how this group was the best thing ever, people worn you, you don’t want to hear about… and then, not only you realise that you were in the wrong, but that they took off your pride, your intimity etc… I hope you get the picture, those people end up feeling so miserable, after living years in that group they end up alone in a society that they left years ago, no friend, no family(because they left them because of the group years back). You know what? I think I won’t continue, I have written long enough and feel that no matter what could be presented to you, you will ignore it… so I am not answering the rest, I just hope that you do not fall in this trap. Edited July 12, 2004 by Fadix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armat Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 (edited) Ok,I read all the testimonials that were worth reading and the picture is not pretty. The question Sasun is if these were all lies then what would be the motivation? Lot of people leave sects, cults, Gurus without explicit sexual allegations. It seems there is a clear pattern there. I am not saying they are true but if one is motivated to lie then what is the motivation? Vengeance? Vengeance for what! I left a Korean sect long time ego in my late teens after finding out it was just a cult but I did not feel vengeful or retaliatory. His self glorification of the way he painted those pictures came to me very phony and self serving.” the light all the jargon…”Sorry Sasun he give himself away. True spiritual people don’t indulge in self-divinity. Sorry if this hurts your feelings but my instinct is he is not what you think he is. Edited July 13, 2004 by Armat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Sasun, I have to admit that I am REALLY disturbed of what you have posted. I am disturbed for you because you have jointed the anti-cult bandwagon like a cluless teenager who doesn't now what he wants but since there are people shouting and he can also shout he has also joined them. Honestly I didn't expect that from you. I had to read it many times to be sure that I was not misunderstanding what you wrote, because what you tell here in this last post not only is nearly identical to what Turkish denialists claim, but as well identical to the way the Turkish denialists describes the Armenians and the victims. Oh please, that doesn't say anything valuable to support your argument here. I expect logic and proofs from you but so far you are not giving logic, just claims. I propose you to read the testimonials, ALL OF THEM!!! Before calling them liars, read what they say. I have read many so-called testimonials, they keep saying the same things. I have no wish to read more of that, many lies is still a lie. To establish the truth, one can either find the truth directly, or reject a thousand counter claims. If I now the truth, why should I go around and reject every lie one by one? I smell what a lie is and what isn’t and I’m ready to bet what you want that those are genuine testimonials for many reasons. You are giving yourself too much credit. At any rate, if you are willing to bet then maybe you should try contacting those people making allegations and offer them your support. See if they will come out as real people. Suggest them to go to the court, see what they will say. If they are too shy you yourself take the initiative in your hands and organize a lawsuite. Since you are so confident and are willing to bet anything then I say, you should be confident you will win the case in the courtroom. Well, if you lose then whose fault is it, you were the one making a bet... First all of them without exceptions have nearly an identical story and the identical description of Chinmoys reactions… Yes, identical stories because they are told by the same person using different names. The disciples have established the identity of one troubled Australian who uses different names to tell stories to add them credibility. I strongly advise you to not bet anything that they are different people. This could be a good chance to find the truth about those claims. Contact them and tell them you are willing to help, see how many people they really are. And besides, how hard is it to tell a similar lie? there are passages from those testimonials that have no purposes to exist if they were lies, unless the one that wrote it has an IQ well above average. That's what I call a skillful lie which I also nearly believed when I read. It maybe true that the person has a high IQ. Here an example of a passage I was talking about. “I guarantee you God will not be mad at you and your soul will not punish you. Pray to God to guide you and show you the reality of things. I hope you open your eyes and realize what is the truth of it all. You deserve better than this. It should be your choice whether you are a vegetarian or not, or if you wear Indian clothing or not, or if you contact your family or not, not his command. You should not be forced to do anything you do not want to do. You are a free soul, you have the right to love and fall in love, to have children, to have a family, to go to the movies and dance, thats why you are here, to be free and love God and one another but not under the command of anyone.” Domino, this is not how Sri Chinmoy speaks. It is simply not his style, it is very obvious. You don't believe me, read for yourself and you will see that Sri Chinmoy could not speak this way. But again, this is a plain lie regardless of the style. Only people who are unfamiliar with Sri Chinmoy's teachings will believe that he said so. One who would say so will not write a 1000 books with the opposite point. The one here is an alleged victim addressing to those in the cult. Have at least some respect for potential victims Sasun, open yours eyes… stop being BRAINWASHED!!! Yes! you are brainwashed here, it takes someone brainwashed to call potential victims as liars… Domino, have you met any of these people, do you know who you are defending? I don't respect disgraceful liars posing as innocent victims, why have respect for them? And I am not brainwashed, you sound more brainwashed and fanatical even though you have never met a live "victim". while you tell me why I am so absolute here, you do the same… in your conception Chinmoy is a saint, so everyone of those accusations are lies, because as being a saint he could not do those things that are said about him.(like the conception that the Turks as being turks could not have committed a genocide) Again your comparison is not correct. I could not be brainwashed because there was nobody to brainwash me. I have learned about Sri Chinmoy out of my free will when I was an adult. There was no reason for me to be biased, Sri Chinmoy is not my patron, friend or relative. I say he is a saint because I have enough reasons to believe it. If you disagree that's your business, nevertheless I am not brainwashed. And yes! McLaughlin left the group because of what Chinmoy was doing with his wife. He admitted it during an interview to the author of the book: “A Spiritual Guide to the World’s Religious Traditions.” (Peter Occhiogrosso) Are you claiming that this person lied as well? Why has McLaughlin not denied the authors claim? Obviously you are brainwashed here Sasun. The reason why you are protecting him is beyond my understanding, where is your reason? Please once read the testimonials, ONCE!!! Yes, this person could lie as well, why do you think that this person could never lie? But that's not the point. This looks like another anti-cultist deception. I haven't seen that interview, but the anti-cult website quotes that McLaughlin said: "Some of his followers left, however, amid accusations that Chinmoy was making sexual advances toward the wives of his disciples." You see, McLaughlin is talking about accusations made by others, he is calling those exactly "accusations". He did not say that about his own wife, he said he left because his wife left the group and left him, not because she was abused. He wanted to be back with his wife and that's why he left the group too. After leaving the group McLaughlin has said very kind words about his guru. Not only that, if he left because of his wife's abuse he would stop using the spiritual name "Mahavishnu" given by Sri Chinmoy. But that was not the case, he used it for quite some time after quitting. This is how the anti-cultists will twist and manipulate the words. Coming now to the web-sites, I understand that you are doing everything to protect a man that does not worth to be protected, but PLEASE don’t make me say things I have not said. Yes! I said that some sites had to be closed, but this has nothing to do with the materials they contain but rather the address of the site that is meant to mislead people into believing that the site was done by the people that the address of the site was named after. I was referring to “people” here, and not about an individual. The site about Chinmoy cult clearly state it is about the cult, it is build by a victim of the system that was Chinmoys center. You posted that information under the Genocide section and you are now telling me it had nothing to do with the material of those websites ??? Am I supposed to really believe that the contents of those websites were not important for you? I have read and analysed enough lies for years to smell right away if a testimonial is suspicious or not. At another site I have analysed various testimonials made by people claiming to be victims of a crime. Suspicious testimonials the very large majority of times lack important elements. Suppose that we are facing a good liar, but that all of them are good liars, this statistically is not likely at all. In this cases if they are lying, they are ALL hell of a good liar with an IQ above average. Once again, you have seen different user names, not necessarily different people. Coming to art, you quote Chinmoy, actually what I understand from that quote is exactly what I have told you, he do claim divine inspiration. But the quote shows otherwise. This is a unique form of art, divine inspiration is something else. What Sri Chinmoy says (and I don't see how you missed that) that he was simply putting on paper what came from inside. Er? He considers himself an Avatar. Does he not? No, he does not. It is just another claim. If you don't agree then you must prove it, you must bring a valid quote from his official site saying that he is an Avatar, not a claim from the accusers. So Mother Theresa communicated with Chinmoy? Who cares? Does this mean anything? Who cares Domino? You seemed to care about Mother Theresa and branded Sri Chinmoy not worthy to her. The info I provided proves that they had a special connection, and how much they appreciated each other. But you of course will tell Sri Chinmoy to go to do humanitarian work like Mother Theresa for 3 years and then you will give him a high status. What a bunch of BS Domino, I am quite disappointed. What happend to the abuse claims? OK! Let make a deal, contact yahoo/geocities, as them why sites regarding Chinmoy that were hosted by them were closed. As I am sure you won’t take my words, I am giving you one place to start with. Oh well, that's not a good deal. You make the claim, you must provide the proof, not me. People are innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around. “I asked a question you didn't answer, so I ask again. If someone made a website and claimed that Domino has sexually abused people, would you not care to do something about this website?” This is irrelevant and you know it. No, this is very relevant. You don't think people can defend their names from slandering? Why he does not have a right to protect his name? If he is guilty it must be proven in the court, before it is proven nobody has the right to defame. First for me to have abused people I have to have contact with them in the first place. Did I say the claim is Domino abused people who he had never met? In the cases of the claimed victims of Chinmoy, they know exactly the trips, and schedules of Chinmoy, giving very plausible accounts without making any mistakes on where Chinmoy was and when he was there. And that proves what? They know about the details of Sri Chinmoy's trips? Sri Chinmoy travels a lot, and there are always disciples accompanying, nothing is kept secret and everyone knows about his trips in detail. I fail to see what can be proven by knowing details of the trips. Lastly, I would LOVE to have someone claiming that I have abused her, as I will sue her for defamation and ask a lot of money for reparation. ??? “That is not a right comparison. For serious accusations proofs are necessary not claims. But if you want to learn the truth about someone you should not rely on his enemies claims. You should also hear the other side. ” In court of law, credible testimonies that are supported by other testimonials are considered to be evidences, and when we have many such testimonies with accounts that are nearly identical, it is then considered as a strong evidence. In the court of law it is real people who give testimonies, not internet accounts. When the colleague of Saib during the Turkish military tribunal prepared his testimony and presented an affidavit co-signed by another colleague, the fact that this other colleague version was nearly identical made of the evidence presented as a “proof”(by its juridical definition). Of course this cases was ignored for another reason, that’s another story. Hhhh… What I mean by this is that when you have many testimonials that concord with eachothers, it is enough to charge someone, in this cases there are many people that had no reason to lie, the cases of McLaughlin is an example. Just another victim that has provided her name previously has been threatned by Chinmoy and asked the delete her testimonial. Internet testimonials cannot be considered as valid testimonials. You need real people with true identification. So far you have quoted internet people making various charges and making a charge about McLaughlin's wife (but not McLaughlin saying his wife was abused as I showed above). “On one hand there are a few ex-disciples that make this claim. On the other hand, there are hundreds of disciples as well as ex-disciples that will simply call this claim nonsense. If you are an honest investigator, and on top of that a probabilistic, then you should see that the probability of your hypothesis being true is really really small. But instead of that you prefer to make an absolute claim.” This is NONESENSE, this is not how investigations works. You are doing like McCarthy here when he used the Niles-Sutherland commission as an example of investigation. The commission was based on interviewing Muslims and asking them if they really killed Armenians. You can not ask a majority in order to reject the charges of said crime against a minority. First of all, there are testimonies about disciples abusing women. Many have gained from it and have reasons to deny, others don’t know, and there are probably others that see some evidences but are blinded by their faith. Not at all a nonsense, this is a very valid way of investigating. You are bringing a few ex-disciples with their testimonies, and I am bringing many more disciples' and ex-disciples' testimonies to the contrary. They have all been in the same position, and had the same relationship with Sri Chinmoy. Their testimonies have equal value to the matter. The chances that a few of the disciples were abused and the vast majority were not aware is very unprobable. There is a high chance that the minority is lieing as both the majority and minority were subject to the same condition, were together a lot of times, and did pretty much the same things. While my way of investigation does not give a 100% proof that the minority are liars, it does however show that the claims of the minority are not credible. Your comparing to muslims does not apply. As far as I understand those muslims were unrelated to the acts of genocide, the only common thing was that they were muslims. But here all of them were disciples at some point, being in the same relationship. In many instances they could have been witnesses of the charges if not being abused themselves. “The argument is ligically faulty. It makes no sense that a man is seeking to have sex and preaching celibacy. You may bring a million books alleging the contrary but as long as you don't offer a valid, logically correct reasoning those books will prove nothing. Anyone can write books full of lies and sell. And I know about other allegations of so-called 'cult groups'. They are mostly fabrications and rubbish. ” You ask me to give a “logical” explanation for something that is NOT logical. People do not only act logically in their lives. I mean, when I want to eat a chocolate, there is no “logical” reason… Chinmoy first intentions might have been good, but power corrupt… in this system, as a man he could not fight his basic instincts, this doesn’t need any “logical” explanations, it just happen. While priests may have good intentions to become priests, the system in which they “evolve” can make some of them paedophiles. Having previously good intentions doesn’t mean that you are vaccinated against wrongdoings. As for your claims that the charges against “cult groups” are mostly rubbish, I will suppose I haven’t read it for your own sake. Domino, don't judge everyone by the same standards. Unfamiliarity with true spirituality is your main stumbling block. Sri Chinmoy is not an ordinary man, his profile speaks for himself. Writing 1400+ books non-stop, writing thousands of songs, playing on 100+ different types of musical instruments, doing paintings, plus doing athletics, spending much time with disciples, all of these together put him in a different category. Even ordinary men can resist to temptation without problem, why do you think that they will necessarily give in to sex desires? But Sri Chinmoy doesn't have temptations at all. You have no idea who you are talking about. If he had temptations he would not produce so many things and be involved in so much, he would instead go after his temptations like everyone else does. If he was after pleasures he would not continue leading a pure spiritual path while the number of followers increases. It makes no sense, it is not his job, he does not get paid for this position. His life is all service to others, he has no personal life. How can you not understand that this is a different kind of man? There are some groups who allow sexual relationships and have more followers. If he was really after sex and could not cope with temptations he would announce that, OK, from now on sex is allowed, or in some other form would introduce sex. Why go to so much out of way merely to have sex? He is not part of any institution to follow rules, he himself makes the rules of the path. Don't you see that this logic is faulty? You are saying that he does not act logically, but on the other hand you are accusing him of being a clandestine, manipulative man which implies he must have a lot of logic and slieness. This is contradictory. I am telling you this for someone who has never met the person in question. But on top of this logic, I have a lot of experiences that give me the real picture. How can I explain? If I see white snow and a thousand people claim that it is black, it cannot be black. You simply have no idea, you have not met any real person concerning the matter, you have no real experience, to you all is theoretical. Believe me Sasun, you don’t have a clue here of what you are talking about. I propose you to search on the web support groups for people having been abused and raped, the very large majority of those raped by people close to them do not report it because of many factors. Those in a sect are very psychologically dependent of the group, they have left everything for that group, they believe in that man… and then, they are misled. This is typical and a very well known and studied thing. Most of them feel they are to blame, they feel guilt… others have a very strong sentiment of embarrassment. First you tell to everyone how this group was the best thing ever, people worn you, you don’t want to hear about… and then, not only you realise that you were in the wrong, but that they took off your pride, your intimity etc… I hope you get the picture, those people end up feeling so miserable, after living years in that group they end up alone in a society that they left years ago, no friend, no family(because they left them because of the group years back). Oh, I have no clue, so give me a clue Domino. You didn't answer me. Tell me why someone will not feel embarrassment to slander on the internet, will pretend to warn others and help them from this allegedely evil person, but will not do anything to stop this group. Why don't they go to the court? Tell me please, why they will make accusations in public but won't make the same accusations in court? They could hire a lawyer if they are too shy. They could group together and file a joint lawsuit more powerful. You are saying most of them feel they are to blame, perhaps some will. But it is not the case here, they are blaiming the guru, not themselves. What you are describing is the standard anti-cult material. Many people simply fail to realize that a spritual path has many uncommon difficulties, both psychological and physical. Those who join will experience difficulties, but that is NOT abuse. They were told in the beginning what it means to be in the path, they made the decision out of their own will, there was no deception involved. Then they come out and blame the group leader with disgraceful lies. That is the reason why I call the anti-cult groups a fraud, in most cases. It has to do much with the ignorance of the eastern spiritual practices. People get freaked out at the idea of a guru, of a disciplined spiritual life, or a non-priest being celibate. Guru/disciple reality has been the tradition of the East since ancient times, there is nothing to be afraid of. Ignorant and bigoted people do not think so, they call spiritual groups cults, and their practices abuse. You are in the same rank Domino, it's not like you accept some gurus and reject others. You don't accept any guru, like many people you are bigoted too. You are not just rejecting Sri Chinmoy as a guru, you are rejecting all Eastern traditions that have gurus. All gurus do pretty much the same things, they all have discipline in their paths, and all of their disciples have to indure difficulties, not abuse. You know what? I think I won’t continue, I have written long enough and feel that no matter what could be presented to you, you will ignore it… so I am not answering the rest, I just hope that you do not fall in this trap. No Domino, I have not ignored your argument, I have very carefully answered you. I have made logical statements and questioned your points, I have required facts and logic. You never brought facts, and you fail to offer logic. What kind of an argument is this? You did a malicious job indeed slandering an innocent person, consciously or unconsciously I do not know. Like I said, if you are indeed interested in the fates of the alleged victims then do something more than reading internet testimonies and slandering. Domino, you just don't want to accept that your argument is baseless and wrong. I would hate to be hard on you, but since you have the audacity to slander someone much purer than you, and since you have taken the authoritative stance to make a judgement based on mere internet accounts arrogantly assuming that you have the expertise to tell lies from truth without having facts then I will call a spade a spade. If you will get offended then so be it, I am for the truth. Nobody asked you to jump in with serious charges against a person you don't know and with ignorant views about a subject from which you are far away... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Ok,I read all the testimonials that were worth reading and the picture is not pretty. The question Sasun is if these were all lies then what would be the motivation? Lot of people leave sects, cults, Gurus without explicit sexual allegations. It seems there is a clear pattern there. I am not saying they are true but if one is motivated to lie then what is the motivation? Vengeance? Vengeance for what! I left a Korean sect long time ego in my late teens after finding out it was just a cult but I did not feel vengeful or retaliatory. His self glorification of the way he painted those pictures came to me very phony and self serving.” the light all the jargon…”Sorry Sasun he give himself away. True spiritual people don’t indulge in self-divinity. Sorry if this hurts your feelings but my instinct is he is not what you think he is. Armat, many people have similarly left Sri Chinmoy's path and not made any accusations. Some of them to this day say good things. This is not a clear pattern as it seems. On the internet there are as well positive comments by other ex-disciples, or neutral statements such as dissatisfaction for whatever reason but not sex charges. As for motivations, well, it could be vengence for being expelled, bitterness for not being the most favorite, or vengence because they feel disillusioned of not achieving quick results. As far as women are concerned, after many years they also feel that their youth is gone and everything is gone, so they accuse the guru although it was them who made the decision to join knowhing well that they will not have a family. Being more sensitive to age, their accusations are also stronger. But actually there are other paths with the same problems - disciples leaving and accusing of sex abuse and other types of abuse. Those are in the anti-cultist books Domino is talking about. As far as self-glorification, I don't see any. The same way you could say Jesus Christ and Krishna were also doing self-glorification, in fact they both declared that they were God and nothing else. I don't look at it as self-glorification. If someone only claims to be divine for no reason its another thing... but if you read Sri Chinmoy he will say, yes, he has achived God-realization. But he will say that he is serving God and humanity, and he indeed does whether we are aware of it or not. To me that is not self-glorification but telling the truth. If he didn't say he is God-realized then how would people know? A God-realized man is God's representative. Maybe it would be extremely humble of him not to acknowledge but useless... coming to paintings, if it is his way of painting then how is it self-glorification? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted July 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 "Sri Chinmoy doesn't have temptations at all. " Whoa....even Christ had temptations no? Did he not have to resist the overtures of the Devil? So Chinmoy is beyond Christ now? And I thought you were saying he was human? Could this be possible? And is it possible he could be holier then Reverend Moon? (who is also serving humanity - no?)...perhaps we have a new trinity in the making....but who could be the 3rd? ...many possible claiments I imagine... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted July 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 As far as women are concerned, after many years they also feel that their youth is gone and everything is gone, so they accuse the guru although it was them who made the decision to join knowhing well that they will not have a family. Yes I can imagine being bitter to - in these circumstances...finally gaining the wisdom of age to see how you were misled in youth - that life has passed you by (and for what?) - and now - hoping to have a normal life again - and raise a family - that your time has passed and you are now unable....oh well...perhaps in the next life eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Here is an an interview with a close disciple of Sri Chinmoy for those whose eyes are open to reality. This is a real person with real merits recognised widely, giving a real testimony. The article shows 2 things (among other things): 1) How Sri Chinmoy's philosophy, teachings and artistic/athletic accomplishments can be understood clearly and without contradictions, 2) How Guru Sri Chinmoy can inspire and help people to embrace their own divine nature and to truly transcend their human limitations. http://www.wie.org/j22/ashrita.asp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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