Sasun Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 Sasun, what is the point of religion if it isn't able to guide as many people as possible, no matter how good and kind that religion is? You always point out the goodness of religion but isn't the purpose of religion to be as a guide for the people to follow? Yet it fails to do so and has failed to do so. And because of it humanity has seen countless wars and atrocities, all in the name of religion. It's not the idea that is important in religion but the outcome caused by various beliefs in various religions. Anoushik, had there not been religions we would not have morality, we would be beasts. Wars are not caused because of religion but because of human misunderstanding. But most of the wars had nothing to do with religion. As to religion guiding us, how can religion guide a person if a person is not willing to follow it ??? You should ask to yourself, why do you not follow a religion? The purpose of religion is to change the human nature from bad to good, from low to high, to teach rightous behavior, etc... What puzzles me, why do you expect someone to force you or compell you do things? It is impossible to force someone to be compassionate, to love, to be humble, and other things that religions typically teach. There are two sides, teacher and student. Religion is the teacher, man is the student. If the student sleeps at the class no matter how brilliant the teacher is there will be no learning. Learning is a difficult task, religious practice is more difficult. Religion is always there, it is up to you to follow it. But you prefer to criticize it with or without reason. In that case all bad students should criticize their teachers. Well, I said what I said. It seems a simple logic to me, but if you don't understand then I am unable to make you understand, as simple as that. The same goes with religion and not understanding it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anileve Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 Let me guess! Love your neighbor…but be careful not to get caught! Thoth, if this is the case you are forgiven by Gamavor! THOTH, care to explain? Have you stolen an owned property? If that's the case, I hope it was done with tact and grace. Poetic skills at their finest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 It is dangerous to have different beliefs? I don't think you would be happy if somebody forced you to have Domino's beliefs I am sure in that case you would blame God for not being allowed to have a different belief. So no matter what God gets blamed. No one need to force her... as she will adopt my belief very soon by choice... Prediction... Hyeforum in 2010 change its name to "Fadixian multiverse" after a general vote, where the members all adopted Fadixian multiver and rejected any other kind of belief. By then... I would have brought evidences from my lab... that the theory in question is the best to discribe the world we live in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted June 11, 2004 Report Share Posted June 11, 2004 No one need to force her... as she will adopt my belief very soon by choice... Well... I don't know about that just yet... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted June 11, 2004 Report Share Posted June 11, 2004 Anoushik, had there not been religions we would not have morality, we would be beasts... As to religion guiding us, how can religion guide a person if a person is not willing to follow it ??? You should ask to yourself, why do you not follow a religion? The purpose of religion is to change the human nature from bad to good, from low to high, to teach rightous behavior, etc... What puzzles me, why do you expect someone to force you or compell you do things? It is impossible to force someone to be compassionate, to love, to be humble, and other things that religions typically teach. At one point you're saying that religion gives moral guidance and can change the human nature from bad to good, and then you're saying that it is impossible for religion to be able to change people who don't want to be changed. Then what is the purpose of religion? From your argument I can say that people who follow religion and want to be good already have this goodness in them, it just needs to be nourished through religion (much like a teacher nourishes and develops the talent of a certain student, but the talent has to be there) but if people are lacking this goodness (likewise the understanding of morality) then religion really has no real purpose. It is only for a select few who long for guidance in life. The rest will likely misuse and abuse the teachings of religion for their own personal gain. This is why I think religion is dangerous, and the more religions there are the more dangerous it becomes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted June 13, 2004 Report Share Posted June 13, 2004 At one point you're saying that religion gives moral guidance and can change the human nature from bad to good, and then you're saying that it is impossible for religion to be able to change people who don't want to be changed. Some don't want to be changed, some want to be changed but have no faith in themselves, some want to be changed and have faith in themselves but are lazy to work. Deep inside everyone wants to be happy and satisfied with life, this change is the only thing that can make one truly happy and satisfied. This is what those who have gone through this path will say with absolute confidence. Then what is the purpose of religion? From your argument I can say that people who follow religion and want to be good already have this goodness in them, it just needs to be nourished through religion (much like a teacher nourishes and develops the talent of a certain student, but the talent has to be there) but if people are lacking this goodness (likewise the understanding of morality) then religion really has no real purpose. Everyone has a degree of goodness, it is not possible to find somone who has no virtue at all. So everyone can use religion to be good and better if they choose so. If you agree that people should be good, and if you agree that if people follow religion they will benefit from it, then I don't see what the problem is. It is only for a select few who long for guidance in life. These select few are said to carry the humanity forward, while the rest of people live for themselves. The rest will likely misuse and abuse the teachings of religion for their own personal gain. This is why I think religion is dangerous, and the more religions there are the more dangerous it becomes. Knives can be properly used for the benefit of the kitchen, and knives can be misused to hurt people. Should we conclude that knives are dangerous? If religion can be misused, it is not the problem of religion but the problem of misuse. If we agree that religion properly used is beneficial for the humanity then it is unfair to call it dangerous. Dangerous are people who are willing to misuse it for selfish needs. Religion is not to be blamed. If there was no religion these people would find something else to misuse. I must make a note, when I refer to religion I have in mind the pure, intended meaning of it, not the religious structures, hierarchies, authorities, etc. I hope this makes my point clearer. We find that many religious people are misusers rather than sincere practicioners working to transform their nature. Nevertheless, religion in the sense of spiritual discipline and growth is our only hope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted June 14, 2004 Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 Some don't want to be changed, some want to be changed but have no faith in themselves, some want to be changed and have faith in themselves but are lazy to work. Deep inside everyone wants to be happy and satisfied with life, this change is the only thing that can make one truly happy and satisfied. This is what those who have gone through this path will say with absolute confidence. If deep inside everyone wants to be happy and satisfied with life and you say that the change in a person brought by religion makes one happy and satisfied why doesn't everyone want to be changed? Is it because some people don't know of the benefits by turning to religion? Or they aren't born religious? Whichever reason it is it shows that only some will truly benefit from religion. If it had been otherwise this world would have been a different place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted June 14, 2004 Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 ...religion in the sense of spiritual discipline and growth is our only hope. I disagree. Religion is not our only hope. Secular humanism should have been much more encouraged in our society and throughout the history of mankind. In fact, I strongly believe that humanity would have been better off if there was no religion at all (or at least religion wasn't given so much importance). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted June 14, 2004 Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 Anoushik, it's human nature to simply that which she cannot understand in order to make sense of it. Religion and God is just a by product of that so I think it was inevitable that it would exist as we evolved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted June 14, 2004 Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 Secular humanism should have been much more encouraged in our society and throughout the history of mankind. What is secular humanism? Where does it come from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted June 14, 2004 Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 If deep inside everyone wants to be happy and satisfied with life and you say that the change in a person brought by religion makes one happy and satisfied why doesn't everyone want to be changed? Is it because some people don't know of the benefits by turning to religion? Or they aren't born religious? Whichever reason it is it shows that only some will truly benefit from religion. If it had been otherwise this world would have been a different place. Well, one maybe not religious in this life but religious in subsequent lives. There are many-many opportunities for each soul to take advantage of spiritual practices and evolve towards liberation, if not in this life, then in next, if not in next then the one after, etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted June 14, 2004 Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 Anoushik, it's human nature to simply that which she cannot understand in order to make sense of it. Religion and God is just a by product of that so I think it was inevitable that it would exist as we evolved. Not really Sip, that's not what religion is about. In most cases religions are not concerned about understanding things or explaining things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted June 14, 2004 Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 To me, religion is an institutionalized belief system used to guide those who cannot think for themselves. That "rule-based" existence is a simplification of how things should be in my opinion. I assume I don't have to go into how the concept of "God" (or gods) is a simplifying model (an abstraction) to explain things we don't understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted June 14, 2004 Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 To me, religion is an institutionalized belief system used to guide those who cannot think for themselves. Are you saying that religious people cannot think for themselves? That "rule-based" existence is a simplification of how things should be in my opinion. I assume I don't have to go into how the concept of "God" (or gods) is a simplifying model (an abstraction) to explain things we don't understand. It seems to me that you are saying, whatever people could not answer they just invented God and that was the explanation. Well, it maybe your opinion but there is no truth in it. In all major religions there were direct experiences with God, and that is how people came to learn of God, and that is how religions originated. Now if you want to believe that its not the case and people just invented God you will not be able to support with the history of religions. What you are saying maybe true for some people who don't know much, and when asked about things they will simply refer to God. But that doesn't prove anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted June 14, 2004 Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 Just that we are on the same page, here's the dictionary definitions of religion: 1.a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship. 2.The life or condition of a person in a religious order. 3.A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader. 4.A cause, a principle, or an activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion. --------- In def 1, we have "God" and the belief in him. Def 2 is irrelevant to us at this point. Def 3 is what I was referring to with the leader telling the others what to do. So the others have to take the leaders words for granted. I think def 4 seems to be closer to what you have been saying Sasun. Now whether a god exists or not or if the basis on which the specific religion is founded is valid or not, I am saying the mere concept of having an institutionalized belief system simplifies human existence. My point in this thread in reply to Anoushik was that as the human masses were evolving and becoming slowly educated, such a methodology for existence was bound to manifest itself sooner or later. At this point, I am not arguing whether the foundations of any specific religion have been valid or not. I am merely saying, as you pointed out, that those who resort to a "religion" to guide their existence are not thinking too much on their own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted June 14, 2004 Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 OK, I can see your reasoning but I cannot agree in principle with your last sentence. True, religion is a guidance and it may imply a strict discipline for the follower. However, it is not about thinking. No matter how good a thinker one is, there is still something beyond reasoning, that thing is morality which is largely irrational. If one picks morality it doesn't mean he/she cannot or should not think. This is about the sense of right and wrong. Religion says you must do the right thing. It is morality, and it is a guidance that cannot be replaced by any thinking, it is a moral choice. One still needs to do a great deal of thinking. But one thing is clear, one cannot come to morality by thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted June 14, 2004 Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 I seem to recall us having had this discussion before. I believe that morality can be arrived at through logic and thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted June 14, 2004 Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 OK, I can see your reasoning but I cannot agree in principle with your last sentence. True, religion is a guidance and it may imply a strict discipline for the follower. However, it is not about thinking. No matter how good a thinker one is, there is still something beyond reasoning, that thing is morality which is largely irrational. If one picks morality it doesn't mean he/she cannot or should not think. This is about the sense of right and wrong. Religion says you must do the right thing. It is morality, and it is a guidance that cannot be replaced by any thinking, it is a moral choice. One still needs to do a great deal of thinking. But one thing is clear, one cannot come to morality by thinking. Sasun, humans have and always been both, rational and irrational giving the source of such a state of mind, but what you are saying is, if one is rational in thinking and at the same time understands and excepts the teachings of a specific religion or all that can not be, how else would one know and differentiate the value of the teaching(s) in which it is suppose to fallow? And why can’t one be rational and have moral values at the same time. Don’t you agree religion would be best served if one understands the value of it, which is by thinking and absorbing it? Like every single information or a concept we encounter in life! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted June 14, 2004 Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 This is an interesting point ... given a wide array of religions, picking the "right" one does require significant thought. This is assuming one is free to chose (or that one even tries to chose rather than following a religion blindly for whatever reason). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted June 14, 2004 Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 What is secular humanism? Where does it come from? "What Is The Origin of Secular Humanism? Secular humanism as an organized philosophical system is relatively new, but its foundations can be found in the ideas of classical Greek philosophers such as the Stoics and Epicureans as well as in Chinese Confucianism. These philosophical views looked to human beings rather than gods to solve human problems. During the Dark Ages of Western Europe, humanist philosophies were suppressed by the political power of the church. Those who dared to express views in opposition to the prevailing religious dogmas were banished, tortured or executed. Not until the Renaissance of the fourteenth to seventeenth centuries, with the flourishing of art, music, literature, philosophy and exploration, would consideration of the humanist alternative to a god-centered existence be permitted. During the Enlightenment of the eighteenth century, with the development of science, philosophers finally began to openly criticize the authority of the church and engage in what became known as "free thought." The nineteenth century Freethought movement of America and Western Europe finally made it possible for the common citizen to reject blind faith and superstition without the risk of persecution. The influence of science and technology, together with the challenges to religious orthodoxy by such celebrity freethinkers as Mark Twain and Robert G. Ingersoll brought elements of humanist philosophy even to mainline Christian churches, which became more concerned with this world, less with the next. In the twentieth century scientists, philosophers, and progressive theologians began to organize in an effort to promote the humanist alternative to traditional faith-based world views. These early organizers classified humanism as a non-theistic religion which would fulfill the human need for an ordered ethical/philosophical system to guide one's life, a "spirituality" without the supernatural. In the last thirty years, those who reject supernaturalism as a viable philosophical outlook have adopted the term "secular humanism" to describe their non-religious life stance. Critics often try to classify secular humanism as a religion. Yet secular humanism lacks essential characteristics of a religion, including belief in a deity and an accompanying transcendent order. Secular humanists contend that issues concerning ethics, appropriate social and legal conduct, and the methodologies of science are philosophical and are not part of the domain of religion, which deals with the supernatural, mystical and transcendent. Secular humanism, then, is a philosophy and world view which centers upon human concerns and employs rational and scientific methods to address the wide range of issues important to us all. While secular humanism is at odds with faith-based religious systems on many issues, it is dedicated to the fulfillment of the individual and humankind in general. To accomplish this end, secular humanism encourages a commitment to a set of principles which promote the development of tolerance and compassion and an understanding of the methods of science, critical analysis, and philosophical reflection. " Secular Humanism Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted June 14, 2004 Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 Sasun, humans have and always been both, rational and irrational giving the source of such a state of mind, but what you are saying is, if one is rational in thinking and at the same time understands and excepts the teachings of a specific religion or all that can not be, how else would one know and differentiate the value of the teaching(s) in which it is suppose to fallow? And why can’t one be rational and have moral values at the same time. Don’t you agree religion would be best served if one understands the value of it, which is by thinking and absorbing it? Like every single information or a concept we encounter in life! You make it look like "Rational" is what science is and "Irrational" what religion is. This is not the cases, science in itself is the study of nature, foundamental science is based on math which is rational, but to explain things that are not necessarly rational. Quantum phenomenen are counter intuitive, the observation itself is irrational, but we explain it with a rational matter. Religion is the same thing, but in the differences that it deals with the methaphysic and does not have to explain any irrational thing in a rational mather... it can, and many time it will... but rational does not necessarly mean its the right way. Because in religion the princpe of prediction does not exist, the principe of repetability does not exist either. This is how rationalist philosophy appeared, it tries to use logic to explain the methaphysic and not physic phenomenen... philosophy is about the qualia of things, and unlike religion that is dogmatic, philosophy is not, just like science, it moves adapt etc... And here the new baby that appeared, the multiverse, its the unification of everything, it is the future of everything... religionists, like scientists, as well as philosophers will get from it what they want... it's more magical than magical. We will finally get the unification of the 4 foundamental forces, we will understand that humans are not physical antities, but that there is a syncornised superposition between every "me" in infinit numbers of universes, and that consciousness has an impact on the destiny of the selectec universe(selected by consciousness). Lets just abolish science, religion and philosophy. Afterall philosophy as well appeared because of the indeterminism of things... multiple universe has few determinated things which are the same in every universes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted June 14, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 (edited) Anoushik - thanks - very nice...and Domino - sorry I just don't buy it...its all suposition on your part - just as any other religion (unproven and by definition wrong/not imbude with sufficient facts etc to truly reach such/any real conclusions). And in fact I can see no evidence to at al support your theory regarding humans as this multi dimensional etheral entity spanning the cosmos..its just another version of the man centered universe IMO and very arrogant regarding the rest of - whatever we may call it - Universe/multiverse/exsistance etc etc....What is clear is that we are flesh, blood and electro-chemical processes (as most all othe rmulti-celled creatures we know about)...we are born, we live and we die...and I think what goes on in between - and what we leave for future generation is what is important...and while its OK (and interesting etc) to speculate...its really nothing more then an entertaining intellectual exercise - as we have not the facts to come to any real conclusions...and I cannot imagine how the results of such would effect our day to day lives in any event...but OK...carry on - always interesting and amusing... Edited June 14, 2004 by THOTH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted June 14, 2004 Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 I seem to recall us having had this discussion before. I believe that morality can be arrived at through logic and thought. Hmm... I don't think it is possible. There is never a logical answer to questions like "why must we be good?", "why must we care for others?", etc... these questions cannot be answered through logic and reasoning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted June 14, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 Hmm... I don't think it is possible. There is never a logical answer to questions like "why must we be good?", "why must we care for others?", etc... these questions cannot be answered through logic and reasoning. untrue. First there is love that exists for ones family...and this can be extended to ones greater kin group, village or what have you - with the understanding that these folks share in the bounty of life with you etc etc - and its also logical to be good to others so that they might act the same with you - etc etc - and all this predates religion...even predates speach - if you think about it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted June 14, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 Well, one maybe not religious in this life but religious in subsequent lives. There are many-many opportunities for each soul to take advantage of spiritual practices and evolve towards liberation, if not in this life, then in next, if not in next then the one after, etc... or perhaps in another universe eh? No matter... Religion is fine for folks that need it. And I won't argue that some people are better of with religious beliefs for a variety of reasons...but not all ... some of us just have no need for such and do very well without it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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