Anoushik Posted June 9, 2004 Report Share Posted June 9, 2004 If there are so many people who 'take this stuff pretty seriously' and there are so many Christian fanatics in the US who believe these to be the words of God, why have there not been any stonnings latelly there? I didn't say there are "so many Christian fanatics in the U.S." who believe in these. I said some people take these "stuff" seriously, meaning they take the Bible, especially the commandments, literally. And as for the question of why there haven't been any stonings in the U.S. lately I'm guessing because it is against the law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted June 9, 2004 Report Share Posted June 9, 2004 Reminds me, I read on an Islamist site that a few years ago a German man had burned his daughter alive because she wasn't a virgin, and the court hadn't given him a full sentence on the premise that he was supposedly "practicing his religion," per what he gave in his defence. Not sure if this is true, but... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted June 9, 2004 Report Share Posted June 9, 2004 Reminds me, I read on an Islamist site that a few years ago a German man had burned his daughter alive because she wasn't a virgin, and the court hadn't given him a full sentence on the premise that he was supposedly "practicing his religion," per what he gave in his defence. Not sure if this is true, but... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted June 9, 2004 Report Share Posted June 9, 2004 "What Christianity bestows goes with us into all ages of time to come and will still be one of the essential impulses in humanity when religion, as we know it, is no longer in existence. Even when religion as such has been transcended, Christianity will remain. The fact that it was first of all a religion is connected with the evolutionary process of humanity. But Christianity as a world-view is greater than all religions."  — Rudolf Steiner From lectures given in 1908 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Accelerated Posted June 9, 2004 Report Share Posted June 9, 2004 And as for the question of why there haven't been any stonings in the U.S. lately I'm guessing because it is against the law. ....yes, but surely a fanatic that took the words of the Bible literally would put the word of God before any man made law..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armat Posted June 9, 2004 Report Share Posted June 9, 2004 My problem with the bible is by the second page I have more questions then answers and have the distinct impression that not reading all of it is actually beneficial to my soul then reading every word in it. I guess I always been a misfit… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted June 9, 2004 Report Share Posted June 9, 2004 My problem with the bible is by the second page I have more questions then answers and have the distinct impression that not reading all of it is actually beneficial to my soul then reading every word in it. I guess I always been a misfit… If the Bible make you have more questions than answers... then, is it not accurate to say that it is doing exactly what science does? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted June 9, 2004 Report Share Posted June 9, 2004 Overall I have no problem with Christianity, and like I've said before I think it is a very humane religion if the people who follow this religion don't take the Bible litarally. But it makes one wonder that if Jesus was indeed God's son and was sent to Earth to tell of the Kingdom of God, why did he only come to a small number of people? Aside from the Europeans and the neighboring peoples surly God must have known that certain peoples would never hear of Jesus until technology made it possible. Why wasn't Jesus (or another son of His) sent to the Americas and to the indigenous peoples in Austalia? How could God ignore or forget these people? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sev-mard Posted June 9, 2004 Report Share Posted June 9, 2004 Because he didn't. I think those people got the vision and teachings of god in the way that god saw fit for their culture. I mean the world is a mix of all these languages, races, and various cultures. Why would then it make sense for one single interperation of what/who god is? I think it makes sense that there are buddhits, muslims, jains and zorastrians and of course christians. God populated with the Earth with differences for a reason, we the people have yet to embrace and understand that reaons(s) however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted June 9, 2004 Report Share Posted June 9, 2004 Yes, God populated the Earth with differences, and it's these differences that are responsible for countless number of wars and crimes and human sufferings. In a group of people every single person is an individual with his own personal beliefs of how this world is. Now imagine many different groups with many individuals and you have a recipe for disaster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sev-mard Posted June 9, 2004 Report Share Posted June 9, 2004 It has become like that because the average person isn't a critical thinker and finds it easier to follow a group. Now most/many of these groups are led by power hungry ethnocentrics that believe that their way/langauge/religion is the best. I don't think this is the way things have to be. Believe me I'm no optomist, i'm actually quite pessimisitic, but I do think the differences of man were meant to show man a great spectrum of the universe and god's wonder. It's not god's fault that man has failed to do so. Â as i see it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted June 9, 2004 Report Share Posted June 9, 2004 Why wasn't Jesus (or another son of His) sent to the Americas and to the indigenous peoples in Austalia? How could God ignore or forget these people? The answer is Christianity is not the only religion or the only right religion. All religions are right in their own way, and have their wrongs too. Christ is perfect but Christianity is not. I agree with Sev-Mard's posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted June 9, 2004 Report Share Posted June 9, 2004 Yes, God populated the Earth with differences, and it's these differences that are responsible for countless number of wars and crimes and human sufferings. In a group of people every single person is an individual with his own personal beliefs of how this world is. Now imagine many different groups with many individuals and you have a recipe for disaster. Not really Anoushik, there is no freedom without diversity. The differences are not at all responsible for conflicts, but intolerance for such differences, rigid dogmatism and fanaticism are responsible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted June 9, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2004 Not really Anoushik, there is no freedom without diversity. The differences are not at all responsible for conflicts, but intolerance for such differences, rigid dogmatism and fanaticism are responsible. All very much encouraged by most religions it seems - no? I mean historicaly and currently...for instance look at this Rudolph Steiner quote "...Christianity as a world-view is greater than all religions" - I mean come now...this is so typical...its always an us or them thing...I mean can you actually tell an Irish Protestant and an Irish Catholic apart? Why T F are they killing each other then...and look at Islam...and - of course Christianity (and its penchanch for conversion - by sword if neccessay - I mean look at the new world experience...and elsewhere...everywhere...)...these religions are ripe with intolerance, rigid dogmatism and fanatiscim...its the Atheists and agnostics and such who are live and let live... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted June 9, 2004 Report Share Posted June 9, 2004 "What Christianity bestows goes with us into all ages of time to come and will still be one of the essential impulses in humanity when religion, as we know it, is no longer in existence. Even when religion as such has been transcended, Christianity will remain. The fact that it was first of all a religion is connected with the evolutionary process of humanity. But Christianity as a world-view is greater than all religions."  — Rudolf Steiner From lectures given in 1908 I suppose Steiner is talking about Christ consciousness and not Christianity as presented in various dogmas. And I agree with the quote, though you can't say that the same is not true for Buddha consiousness, or Krishna consciousness. They all far transcend religious dogma and trascient moral codes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted June 9, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2004 The answer is Christianity is not the only religion or the only right religion. All religions are right in their own way, and have their wrongs too. .... I can pretty much agree with you here actually (all religions right in their own way...at least in part...as they are human contrived sysytems to make sense of the world around considering our limited perspective/ability to know etc...)...though I would more likely perhaps say Christianity is not the only wrong religion...same difference - effectively...and while you may be imbued with Christian virtue - and your religious views are more positve then negative - and I like that - in the end (I don't think) you can really call yourself a Christian - because by definition the prime docrine of accepting Christ as savior and the bible as the (one and only true) word of the lord - seems to irreparably contradict the tennents of other religions...(which don't at all recognize such and which are composed of completley different ritual & observance & acceptance...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 I suppose Steiner is talking about Christ consciousness and not Christianity as presented in various dogmas. And I agree with the quote, though you can't say that the same is not true for Buddha consiousness, or Krishna consciousness. They all far transcend religious dogma and trascient moral codes. You're right Sasun. In his understanding of Christianity...all the messiahs built that consciousness during the course of human history. Buddha, Krishna, Orpheus, Moses, Zaratushtra, Mani etc. with Jesus being its culmination... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 Not really Anoushik, there is no freedom without diversity. The differences are not at all responsible for conflicts, but intolerance for such differences, rigid dogmatism and fanaticism are responsible. Thoth is right. Religion creates certain values, ethics, morals, and beliefs for its members and suggests and encourages its members to live their lives according to certain practices. This leaves little room for tolerance. There needn't be any rigid dogmatism or fanaticism for any religion to become intolerant. Religion, by nature, is intolerant. Therefore, there should only be one kind of religion. Diversity is important in other aspects of life but it is dangerous when it comes to people’s beliefs. If God was wise He would’ve made sure that people all over the world practiced only one kind of religion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 (edited) Diversity is important in other aspects of life but it is dangerous when it comes to people’s beliefs. It is dangerous to have different beliefs? I don't think you would be happy if somebody forced you to have Domino's beliefs I am sure in that case you would blame God for not being allowed to have a different belief. So no matter what God gets blamed.  If God was wise He would’ve made sure that people all over the world practiced only one kind of religion. Do you think you are wise enough to correct God? Religion, by nature, is intolerant. Is that really so? Out of all religions let's take Christianity for instance. Christ said "Love your enemy". This statement alone proves your conclusion completely false. All major religions hold very high values and high standards of tolerance, hence by nature they are all tolerant. It is another issue if parts of followers of these religions observe the high standards. So don't blame religion because of its abuse, it is not fair. Edited June 10, 2004 by Sasun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted June 10, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 Sasun - while I respect your belief in the idealized version of things - I must say I find your views to be perhaps even more divorced from reality then Domino's... Religions are by nature tolerant???????? In what universe of the many in Domino's multiverse are you refering to? And while you are correct - the staement attributed to Christ to love ones enemy seems to imply a sort of tolerance (though its not exactly the same thing...the statement/commandment to "have no enemies" might be more directly applicable in this case....but what I find is that few Christians seem to abide by this particualr tenant - and there seems to be plenty of other verses that give one leeway to smite God's enemies and to view those who believe otherwise as lesser...and the mark of a particualr religion should be the behavior and beliefs of its followers - no? I mean if you look at all the documents underpinning the United States you would think that we were the most pure nation on Earth eh? Yet within that framework we have found ways to justify slavery, beat up on lesser nations, undertake coups, violate civil rights of folks, etc etc etc - so one must look beyond the propoganda - which will always make one out to be "good guys" - I mena we have no religions that explicitly call out for evil do we? But its the actions (and writings) of the followers that matter....heh lets hear it for the crusades and the inquisition! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 Sasun, what I meant by saying that there shouldn't be a diversity among religions I meant that, as an example, Christ should've appeared everywhere in the world so that people wouldn't be confused by what teachings they should folllow. You're a very open-minded person (and I admire that a lot) but the majority are and will always be narrow-minded individuals who are not able to see the bigger picture of things. Â As of my comment about God being wise: it doeasn't botter me because God doesn't exist in the first place. Since I don't believe I am wise enough to correct and yet I see so many things that should have been different if a "wise" God existed than it's enough for me to say that God doesn't exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted June 10, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 But Anoushik - God has his ways - his intentions - which are beyond our understanding - thus who are we to judge right? (I think most Christians are with me so far)....but how do we know that he is not Loki? or Syrdon? http://www.canada-osetia.net/iryston/saga.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 Sasun, what I meant by saying that there shouldn't be a diversity among religions I meant that, as an example, Christ should've appeared everywhere in the world so that people wouldn't be confused by what teachings they should folllow. You're a very open-minded person (and I admire that a lot) but the majority are and will always be narrow-minded individuals who are not able to see the bigger picture of things. Â As of my comment about God being wise: it doeasn't botter me because God doesn't exist in the first place. Since I don't believe I am wise enough to correct and yet I see so many things that should have been different if a "wise" God existed than it's enough for me to say that God doesn't exist. First of all, there are other teachings that are just as good to get you there. As much as I value Christ's teachings I also know that to follow a right path one needs not necessarily follow Christ's path, it could be some other path, but one thing is sure a person must take a path to get somewhere. Secondly, where Christ has appeared people did not necessarily follow him, on the contrary, they crucified him. So if Christ appeared in all places of earth that would not mean everyone would follow. Ultimately, it is up to the person, would it really change things if Christ appeared in all places every hundred years and was crucified every time, be it physically or rejected in other ways. There are many teachings, but how many people follow them? There you are Anoushik, you think that you are not wise enough, yet you also conclude that there is no God. You believe some moral principles are right, yet you do not always follow them (I am not pointing fingers, we are all like that with the exception of a few pure beings). Critics of religious values are many, yet these critics do not follow anything, their religion is ignorance and blindness. All they can say is, ohh I don't believe this, I doubt this, I suspect that. There is no knowledge in that, only a show of ignorance. Very often they criticize religion in order to justify their immoral and inhumane life. Â Show me a fool that cannot criticize a wise man. It is indeed very easy to see the virtues of religious teachings, but blind men or men with prejudice against religion do not like to see it. If a religion teaches love, then it teaches love, there is no other way to look at it. One must be blind to say that, oh it teaches love but see it does not. Don't mind the bad followers or hypocrites of religious establisments. When you try to evaluate a religion, read its main scriptures and weigh in and out how it sits with you. It makes no sense to learn about religion by how Joe practices it. You have your own mind and conscience, what matters is what you think of it, not how others see and practice it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted June 10, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 Why does love need to be taught? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 Sasun, what is the point of religion if it isn't able to guide as many people as possible, no matter how good and kind that religion is? You always point out the goodness of religion but isn't the purpose of religion to be as a guide for the people to follow? Yet it fails to do so and has failed to do so. And because of it humanity has seen countless wars and atrocities, all in the name of religion. It's not the idea that is important in religion but the outcome caused by various beliefs in various religions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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