Sasun Posted June 16, 2004 Report Share Posted June 16, 2004 (edited) Nice story Sasun. I think we were discussing religion and not whether God exists or not. Thank you, I am glad that my story was not completely wasted I realize we were talking about religion, not directly about God. But if God didn't exist religion would be worthless. That's why I brought this example. However, about God's existence: I don't believe in God. I don't care how many different "light" there may be and how many different ways one can reach those I still wouldn't call the "light" God. In this regard I am comfortable to say that I simply don't know what else might be out there and I'm open to all kinds of possibilities (like multiverse and multiple universe). But I think someone and something only deserves to be called "God" when that being is perfect. Well, that is your choice of course to not believe. But am I to understand that even if you knew God existed you would choose not to believe because you don't think it is perfect. Perhaps there is a misundertanding, what I call light is an allegory for God. The thing with perfection is that we don't really know what is perfect. And what is the meaning of perfection in our world? That the sun is shining all the time and people are fortunate all the time? Well, that is not possible due to the nature of the physical world, there is always negative and positive, cycles of low and high, etc. This is a whole philosophy... but God realized people say that once you realize/know God you will see that God is perfect and so is the world. How is it possible? It ispossible once you become free and independent of outside factors such as disaster, sadness, pain, etc. To be happy one needs not see sunshine or be wealthy. This is what the goal of true religions is. So if one can transcend the outside influences everything will be perfect. I don't know where the principle of not hurting others comes from - it might be that both biology and environment affect a person's beliefs. You are aware that some people are shy and some are aggressive and some are musical and some are outgoing, and so on and on. These are all genetic characteristics. So some people might be more concerned about others while some people are just egoists. You are making a very good point. And that is exactly why religion must not be rejected. The teachings of the religion are supposed to make one change his/her negative biological trends and negative environmental influences or improve on positive biological trends and positive environmental influences. (acutally there is more than biology and environment involved, but for the simplicity let it not be mentioned). In doing this religion is trying to help the person overcome limitations that were not under his/her control. And we can go back to the beginning of this argument. You say that the principle of not hurting others comes from religion. Most people are religious, yet people always hurt each other and take advantage of each other. Bush is religious. He justified the war in Iraq by stating that he believes God is on his side. Most people are bad practitioners of their respective religions if at all they practice. This is a clear case of misuse of religion, what else is new. It has been the case for most of the time. Edited June 16, 2004 by Sasun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 So, Sasun... As a religious and a spiritual person, what do you think is the point of life? You accept that our physical world both has a negative side and a positive side and amidst all this we cannot possibly know what is perfect, if God is perfect. Yet you believe in God. So, again, can you please tell me if there is a God (if it deserves to be called God) and that being exists and is all good what is the point of life in our physical world and then eternal existence beyond this reality? For what? For whom? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 Another question: What kind of a loving and powerful God would create life in a physical world knowing that so many would suffer in that world because it is both negative and positive? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted June 17, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 (edited) Completely agree, Thoth. Yes - thank you... and its not about God (or gods etc) being perfect...is regarding if they exist. And what makes belief in the existance of Allah (and all that this entails) any more legitimate then belief in the existance of Zeus or what have you? And then there is the whole Christian concept of Jesus dying to save us from supposed transgressions we have commited against this angry, vain, and nasty fire god form the mountain. First - what right does this being - if indeed he/it exists - have to demand such from us? And then what kind of nastiness (this hell & punishment)...for what - not totally subverting ourselves to his will (yeah some free will). This is not at all the traits of a good god IMO (and it just seems so obvious to me - I don't know)...so no - this Jesus concept (as put foreward by fundementalist believers) offers me nothing...it is not light - it is heat and torture... Then of course there is the record of Christianity through history. How can one not judge the religion by the behavior of the believers/adherrents...and I could go on and on. And for the likes of uninformed (and and not too bright) Gevo to suggest that I don't know what I'm talking about - well - that is a laugh. It is only because he and others here (seemingly) can in no way counter what I put forth...yet all the same they will condemn and look down on others...so yes it is very plain - (Christian & otherwise) religion as a crutch for children who need to be reassured of their superiority over others...and who need to make categories where they can see other people as "other" and hate them....(I'm not saying that this is true for all people - as there are a great many very religious people that i totally respect and who - for the most part - focus on the good aspects of the religion [and these people are also capable of having a worthwhile and interesting debate on these issues and can fully understand the legitimacy of the belief/non-belief etc of folks who think otherwise]) Edited June 17, 2004 by THOTH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted June 18, 2004 Report Share Posted June 18, 2004 (edited) So, Sasun... As a religious and a spiritual person, what do you think is the point of life? You accept that our physical world both has a negative side and a positive side and amidst all this we cannot possibly know what is perfect, if God is perfect. Yet you believe in God. We don't know what is perfect, but we can know if we set our mind to it and make real effort. Perfect is what God is. We can see many things around and be pleased with their beauty, sofistication, etc. If something is very good we may say it is perfect. But what if we find something that is better than this perfect thing? We will say that this new thing is perfect, and the other thing that we regarded perfect is no longer perfect. When we are able to realize God then we will see that it is better than all other things, we willl see that God is the perfection of all perfect, and that is why God is called perfect At that time we will realize why God has created this kind of a world, and will realize the truth behind it, understand all the mind boggling mysteries. When we see it we will realize that this world is indeed perfect, but we previously have not seen it in and understood in depth, only the surface. So, again, can you please tell me if there is a God (if it deserves to be called God) and that being exists and is all good what is the point of life in our physical world and then eternal existence beyond this reality? For what? For whom? Another question: What kind of a loving and powerful God would create life in a physical world knowing that so many would suffer in that world because it is both negative and positive? God is manifesting himself through ourselves. All that exists is God's body, we are God's body, everyone and everything around us is God's body. We are manifesting the transcendental God without realizing it, we are unconscious of it. The purpose of this life is to manifest God consciously. It is equivalent to say that the purpose is to be God. To do that we have to evolve as much as to be able to understand/realize God so we can consciously manifest it. If life was all good and without any trouble we would not have any reason to look for answers and try to evolve. The pain, sorrow, difficulties, and all negativities of life are necessary for our own development. Adversities are necessary for evolution. Note that in Darwin's evolution theory negative natural conditions, aggression between species, rivalry/competition play a significant role for the evolution of the species. But we are not animals to wait for millions of years so we can evolve and become new species. Unlike animals, we can evolve faster if we are willing to work hard. That hard work involves spiritual practices, being unselfish, selfless offerings to the world, worship and perseverance. And the role of negativities in life is to constantly prompt us to search for solutions. On the other hand, what is suffering for one person is not suffering for another person. And what is happiness for one person is not happiness for another person. So it largely depends on a persons attitude, it is very subjective. This is another argument against the view that this world is a very bad place. If it was bad then everyone would think that it is bad. In eastern religions there is an important concept of non-attachment. Attachement to the material world and sense-life is what causes suffering. It is not the world that causes suffering, but the way we let ourselves to be. I will give some examples. One person maybe poor but happy, he has no attachment to matterial riches, therefore he has no desire to get wealthy. He is free and independent of outer reasons for his happiness. Another person has a lot of money, without money he cannot be happy. But he cannot be happy with money either. Why? Because his happiness depends on money, but he thinks that he does not have enough money. Since he desires more money and cannot have more, it is as if his happiness is attached to some other money and stays far from him letting him unhappy and miserable. So a person's attitude to life is very important in determining happiness. The same attachment exists in sense life. If one cannot be happy without sex life, then he cannot be happy with it either, because there is never enough of it and there is always shortage of it. If one cannot be happy without power, then he cannot be happy with power either, because there is never enough of it and there is always shortage of it. In short, with desire and attachment one is bound to be unhappy and unsatisfied all the time. The world will be a really bad place for such a person. To be non-attached, to be free of any desires is the secret of happiness. But it takes many years and often many lifetimes to attain to a state when one is permanently free. Once you are there the same world that seemed like hell will seem like a perfect paradise. This is the actual experience of a few liberated souls, and following their advise is highly advisable Edited June 18, 2004 by Sasun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted June 18, 2004 Report Share Posted June 18, 2004 That's a nice post Sasun and it's fine if you believe that. It's good that you've found happiness with spirituality. Maybe some day I'll think like you do, even though I doubt it... One day I woke up and realized that there is no God and suddenly everything made sense. I didn't need to search for answers anymore. The God whom I'd tried to find and make sense of didn't exist. And to my great surprise I wasn't disappointed. I had gained something instead of losing. Now I have to look for answers at other places than religion. And you can't imagine what a great relief it is... I will stop here. There is no point for me to argue. The God that you're talking about is completely different from the traditional God that the atheists resent. And like I said, if you believe in that God and that makes you happy, then it's great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axel Posted June 18, 2004 Report Share Posted June 18, 2004 It may be the case that both Bobo and Toto are crooks. ... is completely different from the traditional God that the atheists resent Christ? We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of God the Father, only-begotten, that is of the substance of the Father. God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten and not made; of the same nature of the Father, by whom all things came into being in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible; Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, took body, became man, was born perfectly of the holy Virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit. By whom he took body, soul and mind and everything that is in man, truly and not in semblance. He suffered and was crucified and was buried and rose again on the third day and ascended into heaven with the same body and sat at the right hand of the Father. He is to come with the same body and with the glory of the Father to judge the living and the dead; of His kingdom there is no end. We believe also in the Holy Spirit, the uncreated and the perfect; who spoke through the Law and through the Prophets and through the Gospels; Who came down upon the Jordan, preached through the apostles and dwelled in the saints. We believe also in only one catholic and apostolic holy Church; In one baptism with repentance for the remission and forgiveness of sins; In the resurrection of the dead, in the everlasting judgment of souls and bodies, in the kingdom of heaven and in the life eternal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted June 18, 2004 Report Share Posted June 18, 2004 That's a nice post Sasun and it's fine if you believe that. It's good that you've found happiness with spirituality. Maybe some day I'll think like you do, even though I doubt it... One day I woke up and realized that there is no God and suddenly everything made sense. I didn't need to search for answers anymore. The God whom I'd tried to find and make sense of didn't exist. And to my great surprise I wasn't disappointed. I had gained something instead of losing. Now I have to look for answers at other places than religion. And you can't imagine what a great relief it is... I will stop here. There is no point for me to argue. The God that you're talking about is completely different from the traditional God that the atheists resent. And like I said, if you believe in that God and that makes you happy, then it's great. Anoushik, I wish you good luck in your search and that you don't stop searching until you find it whatever you are looking for Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted June 18, 2004 Report Share Posted June 18, 2004 It may be the case that both Bobo and Toto are crooks. With this statement you are not saying much really, many things may be or may not be. You can't accuse people of being crooks unless you know for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted June 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2004 With this statement you are not saying much really, many things may be or may not be. You can't accuse people of being crooks unless you know for sure. But can you claim there is Heaven or reincarnation or what have unless you know for sure? And my claiming that there are not these things - is essentially based on "knowing for sure" - as the concepts are patently absurd....but of course one never knows - there are many absurdaties in life...and so perhaps I am open to possibilities (lets just say I regard the possibilities as being very very low - and when mixed in with all the hosts of other possibilities well...)..what peeves me are the people who not just believe these things (OK believe what you want) - but who go on about them as if they are really some kind of reality for everyone else - and judge others based on their belief/non-belief and such...and such... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted June 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2004 We don't know what is perfect, but we can know if we set our mind to it and make real effort. Perfect is what God is. We can see many things around and be pleased with their beauty, sofistication, etc. If something is very good we may say it is perfect. But what if we find something that is better than this perfect thing? We will say that this new thing is perfect, and the other thing that we regarded perfect is no longer perfect. When we are able to realize God then we will see that it is better than all other things, we willl see that God is the perfection of all perfect, and that is why God is called perfect At that time we will realize why God has created this kind of a world, and will realize the truth behind it, understand all the mind boggling mysteries. When we see it we will realize that this world is indeed perfect, but we previously have not seen it in and understood in depth, only the surface. God is manifesting himself through ourselves. All that exists is God's body, we are God's body, everyone and everything around us is God's body. We are manifesting the transcendental God without realizing it, we are unconscious of it. The purpose of this life is to manifest God consciously. It is equivalent to say that the purpose is to be God. To do that we have to evolve as much as to be able to understand/realize God so we can consciously manifest it. If life was all good and without any trouble we would not have any reason to look for answers and try to evolve. The pain, sorrow, difficulties, and all negativities of life are necessary for our own development. Adversities are necessary for evolution. Note that in Darwin's evolution theory negative natural conditions, aggression between species, rivalry/competition play a significant role for the evolution of the species. But we are not animals to wait for millions of years so we can evolve and become new species. Unlike animals, we can evolve faster if we are willing to work hard. That hard work involves spiritual practices, being unselfish, selfless offerings to the world, worship and perseverance. And the role of negativities in life is to constantly prompt us to search for solutions. On the other hand, what is suffering for one person is not suffering for another person. And what is happiness for one person is not happiness for another person. So it largely depends on a persons attitude, it is very subjective. This is another argument against the view that this world is a very bad place. If it was bad then everyone would think that it is bad. Well that is just perfect isn't it? What is the point of living - of striving to change things - make them better - if all is already perfect? (and obviously pre-destined and such - because perfect would be a continum throughout time would it not?)...so again - just what is the point? To live out our role in all of this pre-concieved perfection? And I supose the Armenain Genocide was all part of this perfect plan as well...so who are we to bitch and complain? And why bother feeling pain and hurt...etc etc And your sureness in all of this I find just baffling.... In eastern religions there is an important concept of non-attachment. Attachement to the material world and sense-life is what causes suffering. It is not the world that causes suffering, but the way we let ourselves to be. I will give some examples. One person maybe poor but happy, he has no attachment to matterial riches, therefore he has no desire to get wealthy. He is free and independent of outer reasons for his happiness. Another person has a lot of money, without money he cannot be happy. But he cannot be happy with money either. Why? Because his happiness depends on money, but he thinks that he does not have enough money. Since he desires more money and cannot have more, it is as if his happiness is attached to some other money and stays far from him letting him unhappy and miserable. So a person's attitude to life is very important in determining happiness. The same attachment exists in sense life. If one cannot be happy without sex life, then he cannot be happy with it either, because there is never enough of it and there is always shortage of it. If one cannot be happy without power, then he cannot be happy with power either, because there is never enough of it and there is always shortage of it. In short, with desire and attachment one is bound to be unhappy and unsatisfied all the time. The world will be a really bad place for such a person. To be non-attached, to be free of any desires is the secret of happiness. But it takes many years and often many lifetimes to attain to a state when one is permanently free. Once you are there the same world that seemed like hell will seem like a perfect paradise. This is the actual experience of a few liberated souls, and following their advise is highly advisable OK - so no sex, no money (and/or fun things that can be had through such) - no desire to see your children do well (non-attached = no caring) etc etc Sounds to me like your advocation a life of heroin intoxication... And I understand that what you are saying is consistent with most Eastern religious thought - and there is no doubt through meditation and disatachment (to a limited degree) one can gain insights - but to advocate that the world around is illusion and that we must disattach from it - well this is nto a good perscription for sucess, hapiness (unless of an ignorance is bliss type), and furthering of the species. It is an outlook that serves the rich & powerful in control of things to placate the masses - yeah your poor and miserable - but heh - don't worry about it - its not important - you should worry about things in your next life and just accept your lot in this one....well I find all of this sort of thing to be very counterproductive and counterintuitive, unprovable and just plain wrong (and this should be obvious - as people have always strived to better themselves and their lot in this life - and the joy of life is through involvement and experience - not tuning out...). As good as application of some of these concepts may be - taken to the point to which they/you ascribe - well its a great sham if you ask me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted June 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2004 And how many poor suffering people are truly happy. I'm not saying you need to be rich to be happy - but it sure helps! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted June 18, 2004 Report Share Posted June 18, 2004 (edited) One day I woke up and realized that there is no God and suddenly everything made sense. I didn't need to search for answers anymore. The God whom I'd tried to find and make sense of didn't exist. If you mean that you realized there is no God that is cruel, unjust, imperfect, unintelligent, and doesn't make sense then you were right. That would be a misunderstanding. I think it is better to be an agnostic/humanist (or even an atheist/humanist) than believe in a false, cruel God (which does not exist). Such belief will only produce mental anguish and irrelevance in ones life. I think I understand why you felt relief. Edited June 18, 2004 by Sasun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted June 18, 2004 Report Share Posted June 18, 2004 (edited) I highly recommend reading this book, it is a small book but explains much http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...e=ATVPDKIKX0DER http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0876124619.01._PE_PI_SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg Edited June 18, 2004 by Sasun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted June 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2004 I recommend this book - http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/087...3298903-0668118 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted June 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2004 Another good one... http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...=glance&s=books Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted June 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2004 More of interest to unbelieers and those who question...etc http://www.deism.com/biblevotes.htm http://www.deism.com/monsters.htm http://www.deism.com/paine_essay02.htm etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted June 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2004 I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all." From: The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine, pp. 8,9 (Republished 1984, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, NY) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted June 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2004 Thomas Jefferson: I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth. Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted June 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2004 Oh yes - the absurdaty of it all... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...19/ixworld.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted June 27, 2004 Report Share Posted June 27, 2004 Domino, how can science have anything that is not rational? So what quantum mechanics is counter-intiuitive? It is still rational. Domino, why do you always think that religion is supposed to explain things? That's not what religion is about. Religion is only a step in spiritual development. It cannot explain the universe and generally does not try. For more advanced development there is yoga which can and does explain everything metaphysical that science and religion can never explain. Religion is like a kindergarten level of education. You will have to provide a lot of evidence for this Sasun, reread what I wrote, when I reffered to irrational I was reffering to nature not science. As for Quantum mechanic, I was talking about the observation, not what we make of it. Sasun, how can you tell that religion is not supposed to explain things? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted June 27, 2004 Report Share Posted June 27, 2004 Sasun, reread what I wrote, when I reffered to irrational I was reffering to nature not science. As for Quantum mechanic, I was talking about the observation, not what we make of it. Domino, don't be surprised that I misunderstood you So you are saying nature is irrational? What does that mean? I mean, nature is largely unconscious, what is the point of calling it irrational? Sasun, how can you tell that religion is not supposed to explain things? Science does have to explain nature and natural phenomena as far as it can, but religion is not like science. It is trying to deal/get in touch with what is beyond nature and the physical world. BTW, there are things in religion that are predictable and repetitive. This is particularly true in yoga which is the completely cleaned out and advanced level of religion. Yoga is often called science for that reason, because many things are explained and systematized, and everything is predictable and repeatable - 1) predictability: if a person practices the same yoga, certain things are bound to happen without fail, 2)repetitive: things that will happen are generally the same for each and every practicing individual (there are always variations in time and experiences from one person to another). In elementary religion too there is predictability and repeatability - if one is good he/she will go to a good place, if one is evil he/she will go to a bad place. This is predictability for you, and the repeatability is that this principle is true for every individual, there are no exceptions. It is another question if you believe or not, but this is what some of the major religions have. There are other similar things.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakharar Posted June 27, 2004 Report Share Posted June 27, 2004 For more advanced development there is yoga which can and does explain everything metaphysical that science and religion can never explain. You wrote an explanation regarding this, but could you please elaborate what you meant with this? This is not only very intriguing, but are you on to something that the rest of us mortals have failed to understand, not to mention countless philosophers who have been grappling with these issues since time immemorial. How can something metaphysical be explained and systematized? Don't take my remarks as sarcasm, which I can assure they are not, but you seem to put a lot of "faith" on yoga if you purport it to be an advanced form of religion, if not science. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted June 27, 2004 Report Share Posted June 27, 2004 (edited) Domino, don't be surprised that I misunderstood you So you are saying nature is irrational? What does that mean? I mean, nature is largely unconscious, what is the point of calling it irrational? Science does have to explain nature and natural phenomena as far as it can, but religion is not like science. It is trying to deal/get in touch with what is beyond nature and the physical world. BTW, there are things in religion that are predictable and repetitive. This is particularly true in yoga which is the completely cleaned out and advanced level of religion. Yoga is often called science for that reason, because many things are explained and systematized, and everything is predictable and repeatable - 1) predictability: if a person practices the same yoga, certain things are bound to happen without fail, 2)repetitive: things that will happen are generally the same for each and every practicing individual (there are always variations in time and experiences from one person to another). In elementary religion too there is predictability and repeatability - if one is good he/she will go to a good place, if one is evil he/she will go to a bad place. This is predictability for you, and the repeatability is that this principle is true for every individual, there are no exceptions. It is another question if you believe or not, but this is what some of the major religions have. There are other similar things.... Actually Sasun, this time my post was clear enough to be understood. I am not saying that nature is necessarly irrational. Rational vs irrational is only differenciated in the presence of a conscious being. Chaos is not rational, there is still in math the study of chaos. As for the rest of your post Sasun, it is rather based on personal opinion than facts. You can make religion look like you want... Edited June 27, 2004 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted June 27, 2004 Report Share Posted June 27, 2004 As for the rest of your post Sasun, it is rather based on personal opinion than facts. You can make religion look like you want... Well, it maybe a personal opinion that what religion is saying is not true. But what I am saying, religion as it is provides both predictability and repeatability. My opinion and opinions of many others is that religion is true, and your opinion is that it is not true. But that's not the point. As for facts, there are facts, you just don't know them... As for yoga, this is something more verifiable... Domino, you practice meditation. I don't know why exactly you practice but surely you have some purpose and expect/predict that it will happen if you continue practicing. I am guessing your purpose is to gain knowledge. If that's the case, every meditation expert will say that you are doing the right thing. Yoga is more serious, simple meditation that most people practice is just a very light version of (internal) yoga. Nakharar, I will address your post a little later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.