Arpa Posted June 12, 2004 Report Share Posted June 12, 2004 Hello Guys: There are attempts to reduce the occurence of Arabic words in the Persian language or to eliminate them altogether. During the reign of Reza Shah the Farhangestan was assigned the task of creating sound words to replace some commonly used Arabic words and some European loan words and the efforts continue even nowadays. All the best. Persian Friend. The problem with the Shah was that he was too soft on those shaytans in black robes. He didn't finish them all leaving himself open for them to finish him. As to language and culture. I hate to say this but what Iran and iranians need is a "Kemal-zade". Maybe then they will rediscover their own native and unadulturated culture and language. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted June 12, 2004 Report Share Posted June 12, 2004 (edited) I hate to say this but what Iran and iranians need is a "Kemal-zade". I sinned! :) I used a swear word(name). What I meant was Persians need a Mesrop Mashtots to clean their culture. If we were to follow the above logic that Iranians were conquered by Moslem Arabs then Armenians should have been using the Hebrew abjad, or in the least the Greek alpha-beta. How ironic that Mrsrop's sponsors St. Sahak Partev and king VramShapuh were both of Parthian/Iranian ancestry and culture. And I thought Armenians were the masters in the art of excuses, justifications and passing of the buck. I won't be the first to say that religious fanaticism, not religion per se, turns intelligent people into brain damaged zombies. Edited June 12, 2004 by Arpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iran01 Posted June 12, 2004 Report Share Posted June 12, 2004 I sinned! :) ......... I won't be the first to say that religious fanaticism, not religion per se, turns intelligent people into brain damaged zombies. You are close to it but not at it. The story of Islam is more complicated than that. If the question was only about identity so the game would be an easy game. But the quesion goes deeper in moral area..... There is the real problem, recoverying from that takes time. Many conditions must be fulfilled. First of all the man must become enlightened about the thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted June 12, 2004 Report Share Posted June 12, 2004 (edited) It is beyond my comprehension how some people would be so self effacing to be insulted day after day, year after year and centuries after centuries yet ask for more. Not only that but risk their own native heritage defending the culture of the insulter. Does anyone know the inferred meaning of "ajami/ajemi"? On the surface it means "Persian". The Persians don't call themselves that. Why? I had known that but I had to look it up anyway. My little Pers-Eng dictionary says somewhat like the below. I knew/thought that the term was coined by the Arabs, what I did not know that even before that Herodotus had also used it. The turks also use it in a pejorative way, the reason why we have so many Armenians with surnames like Ajamian, Ajemian, Ajemoghlu etc. See below for more on the subject. And more like the origins of "barbarian", "ethnos" and "gentile". Btw. My edition of the Websters says the at "heathen" is from the Armenian "hetanos". Also note what "arab" means to a Persian. http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:R_pwn...ian+arabs&hl=en M. Moin, A Persian Dictionary, Seventh Edition 1364, the following is provided: Ajam, non-Arab, Iranian. Or Ajami, non-Arab, ( ) ... .. = ignorant ) .... ( Unaware, negligent. And vis-à-vis, among Persian, as we know, colloquially the word Arab refers to a person with low intelligence. According to M. Moin, A Persian dictionary, the word Arab, is referred to a Tazi opposite to Ajam and. .... ) .... .. .... ... ( Also (.... ... ... ..), completely unaware or ignorant. Hebrews called the rest of mankind Gentiles. Edited June 12, 2004 by Arpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iran01 Posted June 12, 2004 Report Share Posted June 12, 2004 Arpa Actually for a while I was wondering why Iranians call almost all nations around by names..etc but not Armenians! But I discovered older Iranians , when it comes to describe Armenians call them for : "tokhs" ! Tokhs means someone who is: intractable, naughty It is not common but is used, it is more like an adjective, if positive one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted June 12, 2004 Report Share Posted June 12, 2004 Arpa Tokhs means someone who is: intractable, naughty I will take that as a compliment. :) They may have a point. As small, physically but in no way culturally and spiritually we may have become through the ages we are still "intractable" and unique with our unique culture and language. And, yes we are NAUGHTY. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iran01 Posted June 13, 2004 Report Share Posted June 13, 2004 (edited) Does anyone know the inferred meaning of "ajami/ajemi"? On the surface it means "Persian". The Persians don't call themselves that. .[/b] Ajam was used to refer to non-Arabs by Arabs. It didnt mean "Barbarian". Ajams case is a little more complicated. It is used in Quran too . You could say the one Arab didnt understand were called Ajam, specially the language. Why it got associated to Persian? Read Quran verses 16:103 http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/016.qmt.html#016.103 YUSUFALI: We know indeed that they say, "It is a man that teaches him." The tongue of him they wickedly point to is notably foreign, while this is Arabic, pure and clear. PICKTHAL: And We know well that they say: Only a man teacheth him. The speech of him at whom they falsely hint is outlandish, and this is clear Arabic speech. SHAKIR: And certainly We know that they say: Only a mortal teaches him. The tongue of him whom they reproach is barbarous, and this is clear Arabic tongue. It is story about Salam Farsi, a stupid Persian who got tired of Zarathushtrianism and traveled to Syria, Jewish area and studied Jewism, Christianity and at the end landed in Arabia and become Muhammads best friend.... During the second caliph, Omar, Islam turned into pure Arabism. They divided muslims into "pure" muslims, "new" muslims..depending on if you were from the semetic race or your heritage was Pagans or Jewish...etc. The reason was simple: Money verses 8:1 and 41 about the booty of war http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html verse 9:29 about taxes on people of books http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html There were a man with name Abu Lolo ( Piruz, Firouz was his Persian name) who got tired of the second caliph and killed him. The "hate" between Arabs and Iranians grew by time. I guess it tooks only 200 hundred years before a Persian with name Abu Muslim Khorasani and his troops helped the Abbasids to take control over Islams leadership. Until that both Cailph and Army was in the hand of Arabs, but after that it was finished. By the time Shiasim found its ground in Iran. Eygptians were first to try It. But they lost. There are fragments of Shiaism in Lebanon, Eygypt. Today extrem Sunni Arabs call Shiaism for "kafarism". Today in Arabic dictionary Ajam stands for Persian, but it wasnt so from the start. Ajam is not understood as insult by Iranians. It is the opposite Bad enough "Arab" is associated to all negative among common Iranians. There are poems, saying which are very racists and beatifull ! " Arabs eat lizard in desert but Persian dog drink cold water in Isfahan ! " The above goes back to Zarathushtrianism when the dogs where considered as usefull animals, but in Islam it is considered as dirthy. What goes for the word "Tazi", I guess it was coined to match "Ajam" by Iranians. Until that "AnIrani" was used for non-Iranian. You could say so: Arab, Tazi, Sunni in one side and Iranians, Ajam, and Shia on other side. Later in Islams history the Turks accepted Islam and the Sunni bransch of it. Since they had the caliph, Othomans, and close contact with Arabs..they used the same words as Arabs against Iranians: Gavur, Ajam..... Edited June 13, 2004 by Iran01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iran01 Posted September 11, 2004 Report Share Posted September 11, 2004 http://www.farhangiran.com/pdf/shahkurdarmen.pdf Interesting reading about Armenian Shahname ..etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iran01 Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 What does "gapik/gâpik" mean in Armenian? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaunt Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 It means ape, and is from Middle Persian. I mainly use it to signify monkeys, and not apes. I refer to the greater apes by their ordinary names, ie chimpanzee, gorilla, and orangutan. It also exists in New Persian as kapi, but for some reason you guys really love using the Arabic equivalent of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iran01 Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 Dear Shaunt "Kapi" is not used in new Persian! I have not seen it in dictionary and never heard people use it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iran01 Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 I guess "Azhdaha" (dragon) is another common word in Armenian/Persian (?) The earliest information about Jugha given in Armenia chronicles refers to the I century, B.C. Movses Khorenatsi, the V century historian, describing the brave feats of Tigran II (who ruled from 95-55, B.C. a) wrote that after winning the victory over Azhdahak "settled" his (Azhdahak's) first wife Anouysh "and many girls of Azhdahak's family with young lads and a multitude of slaves more than a thousand in all on the the eastern side of the great mountain, reaching the limits of Goghtn; they are Tambat, Voskiogha, Dazhgouynk and other orchards along the Bank of river, one of them in being Vrandjounik, face-to-face with the fortress of Nakhichevan. He also left them three settlements: Khram, Jugha and Kho®shakounik on the other side of other river, the entire field ... "3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 I'm not sure if the words ''Kertasdan'' (dynasty) or ''ashgerd'' (someone who is learning a job) or ''ashagerd'' (student) are of Persian origin... The last part of some city names, like Dikranagerd, Vagharshabad, or Sartarabad come from Farsi. (Abad comes from the Arabic word abadan, though) Armenian also borrowed some words from Arabic. Such as: Psiat, Khsir (both mean types of rugs I think) Zaman (arabic) - Jamanag (Armenian) It means time Kohar (precious stone or jewelry) Sheytan (Arabic) - Sadana (Armenian) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 I suspect the word for Satan comes from a single Semitic source. Kohar sounds fishy, for unless I am missing something the most common Arabic word for gemstone is jawhar, jewellery being mujawhara. And what is psiat in original Arabic form? There is no "p" and moreover no double consonant in the beginning of the word in Arabic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iran01 Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 I'm not sure if the words ''Kertasdan'' (dynasty) or ''ashgerd'' (someone who is learning a job) or ''ashagerd'' (student) are of Persian origin... The last part of some city names, like Dikranagerd, Vagharshabad, or Sartarabad come from Farsi. (Abad comes from the Arabic word abadan, though) Armenian also borrowed some words from Arabic. Such as: Psiat, Khsir (both mean types of rugs I think) Zaman (arabic) - Jamanag (Armenian) It means time Kohar (precious stone or jewelry) Sheytan (Arabic) - Sadana (Armenian) style_images/master/snapback.png ''Kertasdan'' ! ? The other word "ashgerd" sound as "shaagerd" in Persian , which means exactly as in Armenian: (someone who is learning a job) The suffix "gerd" was common for 1400 years! But the word "abad" is definitly Persian not Arabic. It means "community". It comes from ( I guess ) "aab"=water. To make a place worth living, green Zaman is "Persian" and not Arabic. ( I mean it is NOT Arabic. Whatever it is Persian/Armenian ..etc I dont know. But it is borrowed in other Languages). Kohar ( Persian gowhar, the same here , I dont know whatever it is Persian/Armenian/Sanskrits ..etc ) is not Arabic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 I suspect the word for Satan comes from a single Semitic source. Kohar sounds fishy, for unless I am missing something the most common Arabic word for gemstone is jawhar, jewellery being mujawhara. And what is psiat in original Arabic form? There is no "p" and moreover no double consonant in the beginning of the word in Arabic. The common word for jewellery is vosgeghen. I had found the word Kohar in a book. There is a slight difference between the two. Psiat is bsiat in Arabic form. The suffix "gerd" was common for 1400 years! There is also an armenian verb ''gerdel'' which means to create , to make. Or the verb ''kertel'' (to chisel, to carve) I use Western Armenian. But the word "abad" is definitly Persian not Arabic. It means "community". It comes from ( I guess ) "aab"=water. To make a place worth living, green And I always thought it comes from arabic ''abadan'' (forever). It made sense (I used to think Islamabad means Islam forever) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 I'm not sure if the words ''Kertasdan'' (dynasty) or ''ashgerd'' (someone who is learning a job) or ''ashagerd'' (student) are of Persian origin... Գերդաստան [kertasdan], though is widely used in armenian, doesn't sound armenian at all (too eastern). Տոհմ [tohm] is the proper armenian word for it. though, this doesn't sound armenian either (too western). The last part of some city names, like Dikranagerd, Vagharshabad, or Sartarabad come from Farsi. (Abad comes from the Arabic word abadan, though) during Վաղարշապատ [Vagharshabad], armenians probably didn't even know about arab's existance. more about կերտ [gerd] (կերտել, քերթել), http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=9604 Armenian also borrowed some words from Arabic. Such as: Psiat, Khsir (both mean types of rugs I think) Zaman (arabic) - Jamanag (Armenian) It means time isn't time in arabic "s'haat"? Kohar (precious stone or jewelry) Sheytan (Arabic) - Sadana (Armenian) style_images/master/snapback.png Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted November 25, 2004 Report Share Posted November 25, 2004 (edited) Գերդաստան [kertasdan], though is widely used in armenian, doesn't sound armenian at all (too eastern). Տոհմ [tohm] is the proper armenian word for it. though, this doesn't sound armenian either (too western). Maybe Dohm-Tohm has latin roots (domain, from latin dominium or dominus). isn't time in arabic "s'haat"? It's more like ''o'clock'' - s'haa sitti means six o'clock. Here's a useful English-Arabic dictionary... Search ''time'', you'll find plenty of translated words (and زمن (zaman) is one of them). Each word is usable in different situations. Edited November 25, 2004 by Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted November 25, 2004 Report Share Posted November 25, 2004 can't read arabic, sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted November 25, 2004 Report Share Posted November 25, 2004 Is harazad (relative) of Persian origin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iran01 Posted November 25, 2004 Report Share Posted November 25, 2004 (edited) Search ''time'', you'll find plenty of translated words (and زمن (zaman) is one of them). Each word is usable in different situations. style_images/master/snapback.png Dear Dave Zamân (time) is of Indo-Iranian-Armenian-...... origin. You will find it in Soqdian languages too as: zamene in Armenian as: jamanag (zamanak) in old persian as: Zurvan etc Edited November 25, 2004 by Iran01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted November 25, 2004 Report Share Posted November 25, 2004 Is harazad (relative) of Persian origin? style_images/master/snapback.png most likely no. հարազատ [harazad] is composed of հար [har] and զատ [zad]. հար [har] means close to, relative, as in հարևան [harevan] (neighbor), հարակից [harakist] (near by, surrounding). զատ/զատել [zat]/[zatel] means to apart, to separate. both, the prefix and the root are native armenian by my knowledge. now, why/how they join to mean relative, i have no idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted November 25, 2004 Report Share Posted November 25, 2004 (edited) most likely no. հարազատ [harazad] is composed of հար [har] and զատ [zad]. հար [har] means close to, relative, as in հարևան [harevan] (neighbor), հարակից [harakist] (near by, surrounding). զատ/զատել [zat]/[zatel] means to apart, to separate. both, the prefix and the root are native armenian by my knowledge. now, why/how they join to mean relative, i have no idea. style_images/master/snapback.png Harazat is in fact a union of Har(ut) and (A)zat. NO!! Harut almost got it. It is composed of "har", "nman", alike, identical, next (of kin), as in "har ev nman", and "zad" with the conjunction a in between. "zad" as in "zadeh" means "born of" as in the Semitic "ibn/bin", or the Armenian "ordi" as in Hayordi. Take "haram-zadeh" as an example , i.e. "born of sin/bastard" Put them together, "har-a-zad" and it becomes "identical-born/born of the same parents". I don't know how "zad/zadeh" ended up as "zat". Now you can see what "harazat/harazad" means. Next of kin, genuine, unadulturated, (emphasis on "adultury"). In fact, "azad" that is interpreted as "free" at the prsent is based on "zad/born (of)" with the negative prefix "a" to mean "not born(of)", i.e. superhuman, born without human intervention, not born through that dsigusting act, immaculate conception as all the gods are. But then again, what do I know? I am just a mere "zad/zat", born in and out of sin!!! Look at his name. Ahmad Nurizade! Forget the "ahmed". He should send it back to Mecca. Nur-i-zade? Nur=light, zade=born of. Born of light? Lusatsin is a girl's name in Armenian! Let's make a deal! If Nurizade would get rid of that alien "ahmed" and adopt a name like Armazd, then we will stop naming our children Moses, again Mosjan, :) and start naming them Masis instead. Maybe then we will once again be the people once we were and be neighborly neighbors again. Edited November 25, 2004 by Arpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iran01 Posted November 25, 2004 Report Share Posted November 25, 2004 In fact, "azad" that is interpreted as "free" at the prsent is based on "zad/born (of)" with the negative prefix "a" to mean "not born(of)", i.e. superhuman, born without human intervention, not born through that dsigusting act, immaculate conception as all the gods are. .... If Nurizade would get rid of that alien "ahmed" and adopt a name like Armazd, then we will stop naming our children Moses, again Mosjan, :) and start naming them Masis instead. Maybe then we will once again be the people once we were and be neighborly neighbors again. style_images/master/snapback.png Thank you Arpa, to making things clear. That part about "azad" was interesting. Actually the word "azad" is very common all the way from Armenia into northern India! The relation between Armenian and Persian languages is weird. one moment they sounds very closed , another moment far away from each other. Some words are spelled same way but dosent mean exactly the same. Some times they are spelled differently but you can recognise it and they mean same thing. Another words: (Persian ) http://www.kasravi.info/xaterat/javaher%20kalam.htm A/P Lubi/Lubia Banir/panir hazar/hezar dazhkam/dezhkhim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaunt Posted December 1, 2004 Report Share Posted December 1, 2004 (edited) Iran (what is your real name?), there is a great book listing all the Persian borrowed vocabulary of the Armenian Bible. I'll get a name for you tomorrow. If I remember correctly, there are over 700 items on that list. Edit: Some say "common," but I stick to borrowed. Edited December 1, 2004 by shaunt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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