Atheism

[Sip]

And whats even worse about this is that they (athiests) must first realize God exists, in order to be able to not beleive in God "not god, or gods, but God, as depicted in the Holy Bible" one must fully understand what they are denying.

Gevo, do you believe in black snow that smells like crap but tastes like fried chicken and falls in the shapes of little cute animal crackers?

 

If you don't believe in such snow, does it mean you just realized that it exists and then chose to not believe in it? Do you now realize how rediculous that quote of yours sounds? So now I am wondering what you really meant to say there so please clarify.

[Sasun]

Oh no! another "atheist" thread

Gevo, most atheists do not hate God, they just don't believe

[gevo27]

if you guys would give this thread a chance, i was going to get to the explanation of my "observation" as im not just saying stuff out of my as***..

 

Sip, your quote comparing to mine,, i dont understand the comparison you make.. what i am saying is..:

 

If i dont beleive that "X" exists.. must i not first realize and understand what "X" is.. thats basically what im gettign across here.. or tryign to.. If one doesnt beleive in God, they must understand him.. why or how ignorant must one be not to beleive in somethign in which they have no knowledgd of../??

 

so im saying, most athiests.. especially ones who like to go out into the world and preach it.. do know God.. and the rest.. must know him or else its pure ignorance..

 

Not beleiving to hating..

 

Sasun jan.. yes another athiest thread, nothing is obliging anyone to post here ill talk to myself.. LOL... but give the thought a chance.. everyone.. the main argument has yet to come

[Sip]

If i dont beleive that "X" exists.. must i not first realize and understand what "X" is.. thats basically what im gettign across here.. or tryign to.. If one doesnt beleive in God, they must understand him.. why or how ignorant must one be not to beleive in somethign in which they have no knowledgd of../??

So two questions come up ...

 

1) You are saying all atheists do not understand God. How can you say that?

2) You are saying God cannot be understood and therefore cannot be rejected.

 

Are you implying either (or both) of those? If not, I don't understand how your quote is different than mine. In mine, I just took "God" and replaced it with my "fancy imaginary black snow ..."

[Sasun]

Gevo, by all means if you want to talk go ahead... but such threads usually end in frustration. Let's hope this one is an exception.

[gevo27]

1) You are saying all atheists do not understand God. How can you say that?

2) You are saying God cannot be understood and therefore cannot be rejected.

and i quote again from my previouse post...

 

most athiests.. especially ones who like to go out into the world and preach it.. do know God.. and the rest.. must know him or else its pure ignorance..

 

i dont understand where you get your quote from, and why you ask those two question/opinions... i have answered it 3 times allready.. lol..

 

Athiests must have knowledge of God, who or what he is before they reject him.. as in "do research of him" before they deny it.. im saying if one is an athiest, and know not why he/she is.. then thats ignorance,, but im talking about the more or less "educated" ones.. in my original opinion.. as in.. they have knowledge of the existance of God.. they must, or else it is like being blindfolded and turning right, not knowing what "right" is.. where "right" leads to.. get it??

 

and i am still in the works for my proof or attempt at it.. why Athiests Hate God,, and not just "not beleive in him".. but wont be tonight.. as i see i must make all of my points crytal clear.. lol... i have midterms tomarrow.. so for now wish me luck.. if you wnna.. lol..

[gevo27]

Gevo, by all means if you want to talk go ahead... but such threads usually end in frustration. Let's hope this one is an exception.

lol.. yes i have observed the same from previouse threads of this sort.. but lets see and TRY please.. even me!! lol.. to be clear minded.. and not get offended, nor affend intentionally.

[Anoushik]

If i dont beleive that "X" exists.. must i not first realize and understand what "X" is.. thats basically what im gettign across here.. or tryign to.. If one doesnt beleive in God, they must understand him.. why or how ignorant must one be not to beleive in somethign in which they have no knowledgd of../??

Gevo, honestly, I don't yet understand what this discussion is about, but I do want to comment on the above:

 

I wasn't born an atheist, neither was I born a believer, but as I tried to make sense of the world in which we live in (by reading what others wrote about religion and analyzing my own beliefs) I realized that I was an atheist.

 

Now, atheism is not a religion (I was wrong about that in my own thread of "Atheism", my apologies to Thoth); atheists simply do not believe in the traditional existence of a god. How is it a religion? And, how can a person hate something that they don't believe exists in the first place?

 

As I was searching for my own explanation of what my existence means, what this physical world means, what God means, what religion means, etc. I realized that the God that most religions believe in does not satisfy my own beliefs of what and how a God should be. So, I came up with my own definition of a God, but realized that such a god does not exist, since the world wouldn't be the same if this god existed. So, I realized that there is no God. I don't hate Him. I don't criticize Him. The only opinion that I have of Him is that He doesn't exist. (I capitalize His name so that you see I'm talking about the traditional God.)

[ExtraHye]

Clean up done.... Now lets stick to the topic, and respect each other

[THOTH]

Stop deleting my post - whoever is doing it

 

I am highly offended by the implications of this thread

 

How can one expect others to be respectful of their beliefs when they show no respect for others.

 

What is this deleting posts just because one doesnt agree with what is said - I did not say anything nearly as offensive as what Gevo is implying in this thread. So if you wish to censor - you should delte the whole thing - not just be selective.

[ExtraHye]

The only reason I deleted your post was because of your personal attacks... It has nothing to do with my beliefs. Now lets please stay on topic.

[gevo27]

Gevo, honestly, I don't yet understand what this discussion is about, but I do want to comment on the above:

 

I wasn't born an atheist, neither was I born a believer, but as I tried to make sense of the world in which we live in (by reading what others wrote about religion and analyzing my own beliefs) I realized that I was an atheist.

 

Now, atheism is not a religion (I was wrong about that in my own thread of "Atheism", my apologies to Thoth); atheists simply do not believe in the traditional existence of a god. How is it a religion? And, how can a person hate something that they don't believe exists in the first place?

 

As I was searching for my own explanation of what my existence means, what this physical world means, what God means, what religion means, etc. I realized that the God that most religions believe in does not satisfy my own beliefs of what and how a God should be. So, I came up with my own definition of a God, but realized that such a god does not exist, since the world wouldn't be the same if this god existed. So, I realized that there is no God. I don't hate Him. I don't criticize Him. The only opinion that I have of Him is that He doesn't exist. (I capitalize His name so that you see I'm talking about the traditional God.)

first.. as THOT is implying.. i hope im not offending anyone by my statements.. i dont see what i have said can possibly offend.. but.. whatever

 

Anoushik Jan.. i am trying to show, that why athiests dont beleive in God, is because of some experiance, or some realization that God does not fulfill there own desires.. and things are not what they should be in his/her view... see you kinda of help my point here. You said you searched for meaning of life, and you didnt like what God, as depicted in the holy Bible, has to offer... see thats what i mean.. Then.. if you dont "like" what he has to offer.. or not specifically you.. i dont wanna point fingers.. so if one does not like what God has to offer.. than i must ask why?... and dont worry about how "christians" or atleast thsoe who call themselves christians, act.. they are human.. this is about God, not the people who beleive in him..

 

ok.. so.. if you dont Like God,,, in your search for him.. then what do you think about him.. u dont beleive in his existance? and this is based on what.. well like you said.. one does not like his offerings.. so what must one do he/she must "not like" and an extreme case of that would be "hate"...

 

But if one tries to say my opinion of God is that he does not exist.. then he/she is first realizing that God has not fulfilled his/her expectations.. then realizes he/she does not like what this God has to offer.. which in essnce means,, does not like God.. and thus.. what do you do if you dont like God.. you "hate" him or dislike him.. then deny his existance.. see.. thats kinda what im trying to say..

 

BUT please in no way am i saying i am right. your wrong.. to anyone that reads this.. i have few references for this.. and hate is a strong word.. lol.. and also the references would not be appreciated by athiests anyways.. as they are from christian authors.. lol.. so..

 

Oh btw: lets not worry about athiesm being a religion or not.. its not even important.. plus awe discussed that in detail in other threads.. lol.

Also i found it interesting why you said "i wasnt born an athiest".. are you suggesting that one can choose and all is right? as in.. you can choos to be an athiest vs.. somethign else, and that something is right, as well as the others are, and so is atheism// ?? clarify if you could please

 

And anoushik.. thx for the reply.. i love reading something that isnt inspired by emotions. and hate

[Anoushik]

Gevo, like you I've got a midterm to study for and I'm going to regret tomorrow for having visited Hyeforum today. I know I'll be in deep trouble tomorrow, but I can't help it and I'll answer your questions as quick as possible.

 

First of all, of course you can choose to believe what you want to believe in! We are born with the ability to think critically so what's stopping you from coming to your own conclusions about what this world represents? Unless I misunderstand your question I'm puzzled by why you're so surprized by this.

 

Second, I never said I became an atheist because I didn't like what God had to offer. In order for me to like or dislike what that being, called God by believers, has to offer one has to believe in its existence. Like I said, I don't believe such a being exists, therefore I have no opinion as to whether I like, or dislike, or even hate that being.

[Sip]

One thing is for sure though ... God's not going to be taking the test for either of you so go hit those books

[gevo27]

ok, if everyone on this planet had his own god... what would you say to that? and everyone thaught a similar ending, they die and their god saves them and they live in their heaven??... what you say about that? how can all of the people be right..??

 

see.. i dont think it matters what one beleives in..as if that is right or wrong.. it might be right relative to.. who?? YOU the one who beleives what he/she beleives.. right..??

ofcourse, you just said that.. so one must then realize that in order for this to be true, then everyones views are right.. well.. everyone is entitled to their opinions sure.. but does that make them right?

 

If my opinion of you is, you are X, Y, and Z.. is that true??? lets say its part of your personality that i can not physically observ.. thi sway we cant say, you can physically observe me, and not God.. .. what yeah think

[gevo27]

One thing is for sure though ... God's not going to be taking the test for either of you so go hit those books

lol.. sip iv been at it all day, i need this diff type of thinking.. lol. and plus i have 3 midterms..

[Anoushik]

what you say about that? how can all of the people be right..??

Gevo, there are so many uncertainties in the world. The existence of God is one of those. God's existence is not a self-evident truth. Therefore, everyone starts defining the idea of God in his/her way. Again, when I say I am an atheist is just that I don't believe in the existence of a traditional God (the all-knowing, all-powerful, all-good God). Maybe there might be a higher being - I don't know, but for me there is no God.

 

(I really have to go. This forum is ruining my studies. I have no idea why I keep coming back here to check the latest posts - well, I know why, 'cause this place is so addictive, yet I'm surprised at my own lack of willpower when it comes to this forum. I guess everyone here feels this way, isn't it right, Sip? )

[MartyRoss]

atheist

How did you make the jump from "not believing" to "hating"? After all, how can someone hate something that doesn't (or that person believes doesn't) exist ?

brilliant !

[DominO123]

Now, atheism is not a religion (I was wrong about that in my own thread of "Atheism", my apologies to Thoth); atheists simply do not believe in the traditional existence of a god. How is it a religion? And, how can a person hate something that they don't believe exists in the first place?

Actualy, Atheism is much like a religion, I would even say it is a religion.

 

Secondly, your definition of atheism is not right, Athiesm do not believe in God. If you believe in something, a kind of non-traditional God or whatever "power," you are NOT an athiest. If you question and doubt, you are NOT an atheist but an agnostic.

 

 

 

Gevo, there is a central contradiction in your theses. Hating God assume you believe in God, an athiest can not hate God, because he/she does not believe in God.

Edited April 1, 2004 by Fadix

[DominO123]

Gevo, there are so many uncertainties in the world. The existence of God is one of those. God's existence is not a self-evident truth. Therefore, everyone starts defining the idea of God in his/her way. Again, when I say I am an atheist is just that I don't believe in the existence of a traditional God (the all-knowing, all-powerful, all-good God). Maybe there might be a higher being - I don't know, but for me there is no God.

You are not an atheist if you believe that. You are an agnostic.

 

There is just more then "many" uncertainties in this world... there is pratically only uncertainties... we just accept one probability among infinit ones and live in it.

Edited April 1, 2004 by Fadix

[gevo27]

an athiest can not hate God, because he/she does not believe in God.

I understand this is an obvious observation.. but im going beyond.. trying to show/see why would one be led to the path of atheism.. does it fulfill something in there lives?

 

I have merely observed throuhgout my short life that most if not all people who are atheists have had a "bad" time with God preciously.. as in.. unanswered prayers..< << which is like the leading cause of "hating" God>> so thats why i am trying to make the distinction of the relation of Hating God, and Atheism.. it makes sense..

 

Not beleiving in God and not beleiving God exists.. also we must be careful with.. cause they are not the same

 

The existence of God is one of those. God's existence is not a self-evident truth.

 

What would make it a self evident truth.. to you, or whoever..? cause what if i say it is?

 

OK.. dang.. i gotta go.. i was gona walk passed these computers and go to the third floor find a study room and study for midtyerm in 30 minutes now.. LOL.. ay ay ay.. yes anoushik.. i dont know what it is. but i keep coming here.. hahah

[Sasun]

Yes Gevo, I agree that God is self-evident truth. However it is not easy to see the truth for us human beings.

Sun is a self-evident truth too. Among those who have vision there is no need to prove that sun exists. However there is a need for those who have a vision handicap. They can only trust the words of those who can see. Blind people have every right to suspect that there is no sun because they have never seen or touched it by themselves. It would be an unreasonable argument for people who are not blind. They would be helpless in such a situation to convince a blind person that there indeed is a sun.

The same goes with God. People who have seen God cannot prove to people who have never seen God. We were all born blind but some rare people have been able to transcend the blindness and attain vision. Such people are Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, Rama, Chaitanya, Ramakrishna,

Vivekananda, etc. They all attest that God is good and great and loves us. These people have vision, while we ordinary people don't have. Believers in God take their words with trust and faith, while atheists (and agnostics) do not trust their words, or the words of those of us who have no vision but have faith. That is the difference between atheists and believers.

[bellthecat]

I wasn't born an atheist, neither was I born a believer,

Of course you were born an athiest! (Unless you count every baby's initial instinctive attraction to its own mother to be a religious act. )

 

All religion is a social construct, not something that is part of you like your right hand.

[gevo27]

Yes Gevo, I agree that God is self-evident truth. However it is not easy to see the truth for us human beings.

Sun is a self-evident truth too. Among those who have vision there is no need to prove that sun exists. However there is a need for those who have a vision handicap. They can only trust the words of those who can see. Blind people have every right to suspect that there is no sun because they have never seen or touched it by themselves. It would be an unreasonable argument for people who are not blind. They would be helpless in such a situation to convince a blind person that there indeed is a sun.

The same goes with God. People who have seen God cannot prove to people who have never seen God. We were all born blind but some rare people have been able to transcend the blindness and attain vision. Such people are Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, Rama, Chaitanya, Ramakrishna,

Vivekananda, etc. They all attest that God is good and great and loves us. These people have vision, while we ordinary people don't have. Believers in God take their words with trust and faith, while atheists (and agnostics) do not trust their words, or the words of those of us who have no vision but have faith. That is the difference between atheists and believers.

[Anoushik]

You are not an atheist if you believe that. You are an agnostic.

 

There is just more then "many" uncertainties in this world... there is pratically only uncertainties... we just accept one probability among infinit ones and live in it. 

No, I'm an atheist. The only reason I made a comment about uncertainties was because Gevo asked how it would be possible if everyone thought his/her idea of this world was correct. Here, I agree with you that there are many uncertainties - including the question of a higher being - but whether this higher being exists or not doesn't concern me, because I know that whatever this being is is not God. Thus I don't believe in the existence of a God.

 

Edit: Domino, I forgot to add that atheism is not a religion. Atheists are just ordinary people that the only thing they have in common is that they don't believe in God. How is atheism a religion. There is no belief. By your logic communism would be more of a religion then atheism.

Edited April 2, 2004 by anoushik