Preservation of Armenian identity

[TheArmenianPirate]

I am glad that you have met at least 3 nationalist Armenians. You also have won the debate. Thank God there are Armenians like you or else what would be of our people

.

 

Well if our people looked to folks such as you to lead us surely by now we would have been extinct indefinitely. Yes, thank God indeed for Armenians like me. When the Hye heritage is pushed, it’s Armenians like me that will be the action takers and push back, because it’s certainly obvious that the last thing our people want to do is rely on ultra-pessimistic socialites such as you that only know how to write thesis papers on how hopeless everything is and when time comes for action you withdraw into your safe little media inspired cocoon. God forbid you actually take a little bit of the responsibility to inspire and motivate other Hyes upon yourself, it’s much easier to just talk and talk about why we should just “give up” than to actually continue with our effort.

 

While all of the “intellectuals” sit on the sidelines and think of things to analyze while twiddling their thumbs, men and women that ACTUALLY care about the preservation and proliferation of our people’s culture, language, heritage, history, lineage, and genealogy will be actively trying to inspire and motivate others to care and get involved instead of spewing out morbid delusions of how “futile” the effort is or how “inevitable” things are. If you so adamantly feel that it is futile, by all means, just give up, jump in the sack with an odar, and make your millions while accomplishing all the personal aspirations that are being disrupted by your Armenianism efforts or lack there of, but please get out of the way of the people that actually want to inspire the next generation. Just don’t make matters worse by preaching hopelessness, futility, and degenerative social morbidity to our youth and newer generation.

 

 

Maybe you should post the address of your Armenian-only compound. I knew of Aryan Nations but had never heard of Armenian Nation. How does it work there? What kind of test do you administer to see if someone is really Armenian?

 

Again, stick to the topic at hand. Any attempt to make what I say seem fanatical really acts counter-productively for your side of the debate. You know very well indeed what makes someone Armenian and what does not, if I have to actually go into explaining that to you then you’re definitely a lost cause and farther gone than I imagined, but I’ll digress. Part of what makes someone Hye is his lineage, the native language of his people’s origin, his heritage, his cultural values, his personal values based on those cultural values, his people’s history, and his regional genetic origin. All of these things in conjunction with some other similar variables make folks what they are, whether it’s Spanish, French, Armenian, Persian, etc. One does not equate having ONLY one of these qualities with having 15 or ALL of them. Joe Blow that can speak Armenian is not Armenian simply for the sheer fact that he can speak Armenian as some posters on these boards have ridiculously implied. Nor is he Armenian because he knows what dolma is or whether he knows Armenian history, these trivial singular variables do not make Joe Blow part of the Hye lineage, this is not very hard to understand and is blatantly obvious.

 

I’m beginning to think that some of you have absolutely no sense of what it means to be culturally unique, what the meaning of lineage is, and what differentiates different ethnic groups. Like I said, wake up from your slumber and stop the insistence that in order to achieve the “American Dream” , we must give up who we are as a people and that it is an eventuality that cannot be avoided.

 

 

If you look objectively, there is nothing extraordinary about us, some things are unique and nice, some other things are terrible, overall we are nothing special.

 

 

Yes, no one said we should preserve ourselves because we’re better than others or because we are “special”, we do it simply because we have to maintain who we are if not for anything else, at least for the reason of having SOME identity and heritage to attach ourselves to. Because I’ll clue you in on something, being “American” is the equivalent of social voidism, that is why descriptive prefixes such as “African”, “Italian”, “Cambodian”, “Japanese”, “Jewish”, and “Armenian” are used along with the word “American”, because saying you’re “American” doesn’t attach you to any distinct heritage except that of Native Americans, and I sure as hell know you’re not one of them. But who knows, with the 2 year old logic used by some people on these boards about what makes a person part of any distinct ethnic group, I can theoretically pluck the feathers off a chicken’s a$$ and put it on your head and BAM, VOILA! INSTANT Native American with all the trimmings!

 

 

As for Armenians going out and mixing driven by sexual reasons, sex has very little to do with it.

 

You’re wrong. Sex has A LOT to do with it. Human sexuality is one of the most important factors in any individual’s value system. A sexually repressed society cannot thrive EVER, because as human beings sex is one of the central factors for our day to day behavior, when that sex drive kicks in, you’ll do nearly anything quench it. With that said, it certainly is not easy being a Hye girl while we have all these backward parents preaching to their kids sexually repressive notions. In response Hye women are to some extent socially motivated by their communities to seek out odars to quench themselves just to maintain the illusion of “makur” or later not run into an ex Hye lover with their current beau. The young Hye men are continually preached to persecute, judge, and reject women that do express sexual desire. What this does is drive the 15-25 demographic away from each other and into the out rim of odar relationships. This demographic is not going to stop having sex merely because their parental backward mentality and community sets illusionary stipulations upon them to maintain, instead Hye boys and girls will opt to abandon each other and move onto other circles where it is safe to be young and experiment sexually, there is not denying this, all 1500 of you on these boards know this to be true. Sad thing is we’re not fooling anyone except ourselves here, quick fixes of running with odars is not the solution, changing the community’s outlook and our people’s outlook toward this issue IS the solution, don’t fall under the misunderstanding of thinking otherwise.

 

More on this later folks, have a good night.

 

-The Armenian Pirate

[gamavor]

Ladies and Gent,

 

I'm thrilled by your optimism with regard to the death of the Diaspora. Now let me ask you who or what will become of these people? Anglos? French? Americans! Oh, Yes, everyone quailifies as an American.

Why none of you entertaines the idea of moving to Yerevan, workind and living there if by all expectations the planet Earth will bear on her forehead the sign Coca-Colla?

 

My guess is that this will not happen. Globalization has a chance only if people would be "allowed" to keep their differences. Otherwise the moment we are fully "globalized" would be the end of the globalization as such.

[Armat]

My pea size wisdom on this issue. Are we Armenians so small, narrow, shallow that we can not except mixed Armenians as one of us? Isn’t that ironic that 99.9 percent of all Jews are mixed races and yet they claim themselves Jews!

This discussion is pointless. Vigil by all respects I would worry more about “pure” Armenians listening Turkish music all day long and shop from Arabic stores and watch Iranian TV and talk about their little “ian” ending in shameful manner.

Got to say that I agree with Boghos and also this kinds of "discussions" I find meaningless.

Edited March 29, 2004 by Armat

[ED]

AP, I have to say I agree with you in principal, however lagging behind and preservation of ones identity here is Diaspora as well as in Armenia has lot more to do with lack of progressiveness in our almost every sector of culture, society, that is the list to say, I echo you your own lines, sex and human sexuality, yes its taboo and not discussed in Armenian families, and for many here, and in our daily life’s its a very sensitive topic to discuss, in all fairness, its safe to say for a woman in this case Armenian woman you to have to agree the urge for fulfillment of that reality (desire), at list she or he can talk to there parents, and parents in there part be open minded regarding this. for which its seems to be a humongous task to achieve sad to say, and I hardly think for some of us here just to post and point out the causes for it (assimilation) are going top solve this "problem

[gamavor]

Vigil by all respects I would worry more about “pure” Armenians listening Turkish music all day long and shop from Arabic stores and watch Iranian TV and talk about their little “ian” ending in shameful manner.

 

Those are the worst type! If I had the power I would globalize them eternally immediately!

[Boghos]

Hello Armenian Pirate,

 

Thanks for your kind and enlightened words. Just one final point: you seem to imply, by constantly coming back to this point, that there is a contradiction between maintaining an Armenian identity and "making money", that those that devote themselves to the Armenian cause in its widest sense do not have the time to become rich. Is that so ?

[axel]

Boghos wrote:

I do believe that Armenians outside the diaspora will disappear, it is just a matter of time. Common sense and history are on my side.

 

There is one historical counterexample to this thesis: the Jews, with the actual difference that it is they who deliberately chose to build a diaspora outside of their homeland.

 

 

and also:

If Armenians disappear from the face of the earth, which I most adamantly believe will simply not happen, what would be the problem ?

 

If your children die tomorrow, what would be the problem? What is the meaning of your life if it does not transcend your own existence?

 

btw, coming from someone who professes to be armenian, such a remark is deeply consternating.

 

 

 

Armenian Pirate,

 

I believe the problem is not mixed marriage in itself but rather the indifference to national fate which is demonstrated by "pure" armenians (thus invalidating part of your theories). The most worrying issue is not genetic mixing but spiritual assimilation and the adoption of the destructive "modern"/"western"/individualistic/materialistic mindset. Mixed marriage (in heavy volumes) is not the root of the problem but a mere consequence of this development.

[Boghos]

I must say it is very amusing to see self-described hardcore nationalists accusing me of neglecting the fate of the Armenian people and other similarly ridiculous and childish "crimes agaisnt race". Of course I will not publish here my "Armenian" CV but I might eventually forward it to Armenian Pirate to see if I have a chance to be admitted in his compound...

 

Meeting 3 Armenian nationalists seems to be a great achivement for one whereas the other brings the example of the Jews as proof rather than perhaps one of the very few exceptions at the most.

 

Such is the fate of many of our communities in the diaspora, or at least of some of our institutions. To be ruled by such minded people that obviously have not been able to achieve success in the real world and hence create a make believe fanatsyland where they become the Knights of Armenianhood that go around with their banners held high proclaiming to be the saviours of the race. Nothing more quixotesque. These are the very people that through their ignorance and xenophobia have driven out many good people. It doesn´t take long for people that are independently minded and strong willed, as many Armenians are, to forsake "community" living for the more ventilated and open minded world of odars.

 

As for the example of the Jews: I will just say that the Jews are not a race but essentially a religion which membership is gained mostly through matriarcal lines. But where are the Swedes that immigrated to the Midwest, the Italians, even the Koreans, the Japanese, they have to different degrees been assimilated into American society; there are other countless examples, the Germans in the Alsace just to point to another relatively recent and European example. It just happens to be like that, nothing that Mickey Mouse or Armenian Pirate or whomever can really do about it short of immigrating to Armenia.

Edited March 29, 2004 by Boghos

[axel]

FYI

I am half-armenian, half-french (not a strong partisan of mixed marriages though)

I am not defending biological armenianness but rather spiritual armenianness.

About "achieving success in the real world", who says I haven't?

Edited March 29, 2004 by axel

[axel]

I will just say that the Jews are not a race but essentially a religion which membership is gained mostly through matriarcal lines

 

They are a race, a race of spirit.

[Armat]

FYI

I am half-armenian, half-french (not a strong partisan of mixed marriages though)

I am not defending biological armenianness but rather spiritual armenianness.

About "achieving success in the real world", who says I haven't?

Kudos to you Axel.I like your idea of race as spirit.That fits perfectly well people like Kirkorian and even myself and my kids.My kids know they are Armenians but they both were born in US so I can't deny them their homeland but at least I can install in them the Armenian spirit.Very well put.

Edited March 29, 2004 by Armat

[gurgen]

Axel, you are 100% right.

 

You have convinced me

[mx5]

what Boghos says is realy disheartening and an insult to many people like me.

 

my grandfather came to Lebanon exactly 123 years ago much before the Chart,

when he came here he spoke Armenian ,latin and turkish,as soon as he settled down started looking for an Armenian family which were very rare then.

 

he found one and got married with their daughter,had 4 children,my father beeing one of them,

due to hard living conditions my father had to go to work early in age and didnt have the chance to go to school.

 

 

He got married to another great armenian lady my mother,they had 4 kids ,I one of them we all went to Armenian schools learnt Arabic,French, English And Armenian languages.

 

my son is also following my steps,and the way he is brought up his children will for sure.

 

now the words that kept on coming to my mind was the following:

Im glad Boghos was not my Grandfather!!.

 

Why do you think we shall desepear?are you following your own logik of events?being realistic?

there is no logik in history.!!

 

why do you think cant there be a rverse effect.

 

you may never know when the wheel of the fashion may turn and people start seeking their origin roots!!tiered of Holliwoodian artificial culture ,this have happened many times in history ,the last beeing in Iran, Im sure you can find another examples too.

 

I have a summerhouse at a village 35km away from the Capital Beirut,on a hilltop where we spend the summer and sometimes the weekends,when there ,I watch the Immigration of birds in flocks of hundreds and thousands,at sunset they land to a nearby forest of our house and rest for few days ,and again start their journey.

 

Many of them stay in the forest and prefer to settle there!!some of them even get shot by ruthless Lebanese hunters.

 

year after year I watched them pass by ,some retier in the forest,but always there were others that continued the journey.

 

I think there is a resemlence to us ,many will retier down the road,as you said the hardcore will go on as always.

 

the way you are acting is like a suicide bomber :if I will die let take with me as much fellows as possible,or else what is the purpose of this kind of disheartening posts?!!!

Edited March 29, 2004 by mx5

[Boghos]

Some people have a certain difficulty in comprehending what i am saying: Simply that over time it is diffcult to maintain something that in any case is not easy to define. In muslim countries or in places here inter-marriage is not accepted by tradition this process takes longer. Even in Lebanon there are several Arab Christian-Armenian couples, same thing for less cosmopolitan Syria, in a smaller scale. Old Armenian-Russian families such as Orbelyan have very few Armenian speaking members, and the list goes on.

 

I am not saying anything new. Just look at Armenian and world history.

[Anoushik]

I think when we talk about the preservation of the Armenian identity we mean what kind attitude and mind-set we have regarding this issue. It’s very important to remain optimistic about the survival of the Armenian culture and the future of Armenia. We shouldn’t think about what will happen to the Armenian culture four generations from now (we could even guess that the whole world might not exist if nuclear wars break out), but we should concentrate on today’s generation of Armenians and encourage each other to remain Armenian. Let’s do our part today and hope that the next generation will do theirs.

[mx5]

what about history ?we are here arent we?or may be you are not!!

 

in Lebanon 3% of mail armenians get married to locals in contrast to 20% of the femals!!.

 

I attribute this to a "glut" of Amenian females.

 

I would like to target this question to Armenian Pirate, although I support most of his views:

 

I made a research in my direct vicinity and discovered that the number of Armenian females outnumberd the Armenian males 2-1 !!

 

now what do you think these surplus should do,you must know poligami is illigal !!.

they cant sit and wait for the non-coming Armenian bride,so when a female is over 20 she is jumping to the lap whoever comes by.

 

and it bleeds my heart that we are loosing them ,

Yes Pirate I cannot see a solution to this fenomina.

 

my only hope is that they would be good Armenian mothers,which is not the case at all most of the time.

[koko]

Some people have a certain difficulty in comprehending what i am saying: Simply that over time it is diffcult to maintain something that in any case is not easy to define. In muslim countries or in places here inter-marriage is not accepted by tradition this process takes longer. Even in Lebanon there are several Arab Christian-Armenian couples, same thing for less cosmopolitan Syria, in a smaller scale. Old Armenian-Russian families such as Orbelyan have very few Armenian speaking members, and the list goes on.

 

I am not saying anything new. Just look at Armenian and world history.

Armenians in Iran for example for hundreds of years, armenians were not allowed to marry non armenians because of obvious reasons, to perserve their identity, if they hadn't; i doubt there would have been any armenians left there today and all the things they achieved in iran, its truly something to be proud of.

Edited March 30, 2004 by koko

[Armat]

what about history ?we are here arent we?or may be you are not!!

 

in Lebanon 3% of mail armenians get married to locals in contrast to 20% of the femals!!.

 

I attribute this to a "glut" of Amenian females.

 

I would like to target this question to Armenian Pirate, although I support most of his views:

 

I made a research in my direct vicinity and discovered that the number of Armenian females outnumberd the Armenian males 2-1 !!

 

now what do you think these surplus should do,you must know poligami is illigal !!.

they cant sit and wait for the non-coming Armenian bride,so when a female is over 20 she is jumping to the lap whoever comes by.

 

and it bleeds my heart that we are loosing them ,

Yes Pirate I cannot see a solution to this fenomina.

 

my only hope is that they would be good Armenian mothers,which is not the case at all most of the time.

Boghos is saying something very simple.Assimilation is a natural process and without being in motherland it is only a matter of time.Iran,Syria.Lebanon Armenians may stay longer as Armenians due to cultural and religious differences however where that difference is not greater then assimilation is pretty rapid for example lot of Russian Armenians are totally assimilated and lot of them with mixed marriages. It is estimated their numbers to be over two million.

We are talking in broader view and individual cases are exceptions and not the norm.

[Sip]

In Iran, you are either Armenian or a muslim Iranian. There is no in between. You can't pick and choose what you want to be. So the binary nature of the two cultures makes it possible to "preserve" since the threshold of crossing over is very well defined and easy to distinguish.

 

But in a place like US, it is such a continuous and streamlined process, that I don't think you can even begin to compare to a place like Iran. Just look at Armenians who have been in the US for 3 or 4 generations ... most of them, only have their "-ian" suffixes left.

 

Clearly now with the Glendale situation and the information age (i.e. just look at this forum for example), it is possible to maintain old roots and establish new ones with the "Armenian" mainstream. However, I don't think staying Armenian is a burden to be placed on and enforced on the diaspora. That is just not a reasonable expectation. This is not to say that the diaspora should completely melt away and blend with the rest of the world ... just don't be shocked to see that with every ArmenianPirate you will have at least 10 or 20 sev_mard situations

[shiner]

Does anybody know how Armenians in the Ottoman Empire did not loose their identity? I really don't understand this since most did not even speak Armenian, just Turkish. Was it like a binary situation Sip is describing or what?

[shaunt]

These Armenian nationalists are great Armenians if you ask me. But, on the other hand, they are also the most decadent of human beings.

[Sasun]

You’re wrong. Sex has A LOT to do with it. Human sexuality is one of the most important factors in any individual’s value system. A sexually repressed society cannot thrive EVER, because as human beings sex is one of the central factors for our day to day behavior, when that sex drive kicks in, you’ll do nearly anything quench it.

So the Armenians are sexually repressed? I don't think so. That maybe true for a small part of single Armenians, but most Armenians are married and are therefore not sexually repressed. Besides, even single Armenians have many opportunities not to be sexually repressed. I think yours is an exaggerated view.

[TheArmenianPirate]

My pea size wisdom on this issue. Are we Armenians so small, narrow, shallow that we can not except mixed Armenians as one of us?

 

I don’t know why you insist this when that is clearly not what I have stated. Nowhere in my posts have I said that someone that is from a mixed marriage should be persecuted, not accepted, or turned away in any manner. What I do insist, is that the mixed marriages should be avoided if possible, and you know what? Most of the time, it is very possible and easily achieved. I also never said that a mixed person/child cannot be “one of us” in the sense of belonging to our Hye community, but I DID say that a mix cannot simply be dubbed as “Hye” or full fledged “Armenian”, just like a marriage between a Japanese man and a white woman will not produce a Japanese child nor a Anglo Saxon one. It blows me away that this simple concept is so difficult to grasp by some of you. Read more carefully before you make haste with your replies.

 

 

 

Isn’t that ironic that 99.9 percent of all Jews are mixed races and yet they claim themselves Jews!

 

Isn’t it ironic that Lipanahyes, Parskahyes, and Hayastanzis are all in fact Armenian and from the same lineage, yet 99.9% of you are busy quibbling amongst each other about who’s mentality is the “right” one?

 

Isn’t it ironic that 99.9% of that same mind numbing quibbling about which sub set of Hyes has the correct outlook is carried over to these very same boards which is supposedly dedicated to helping us communicate better?

 

 

 

Isn’t it ironic how if you truly have decided that Armenianism is doomed that you refuse to go to that social grave alone but would rather take others with you that may possibly still believe in the idea of successful survival?

 

Yes, Jews do call many kinds of phenotypes “Jews”, but one little detail you forgot to leave out is the fact that Judaism is not only a reference to an ethnic group of people, but also a discipline of religion. That is why I can take anyone off the street, have them convert to the Jewish RELIGION, and then proceed to call them “a Jew”. The ethnic portion of being a Jew, is known as being an Israelite , and no my friend, you cannot take an Israelite and Jane X off the street , have them bare a child and call that child a “Jew” in the context of making reference to a person that is of the people of Israel, also known as an Israelite. There are Frenchmen that are Jewish by religion because again, “Judaism” is a religious faith AND a synonym for the people of Israel, which by lineage, are true Israelites. When the word “Jew” is used as ALL INCLUSIVE for those that are Jews by faith and those that are Jews by lineage (ie: Israelites) , then yes there are about 20 million “Jews” in the world today. But when the term “Jew” is used EXCLUSIVELY for reference to the people which belong to the lineage of Israel , hence being true Israelites from Israelite mothers and fathers, then the 20 million drops down to about 4 million. Consequently this drop in the actually figure is why so many true Israelites that DO decide to marry a non-Israelite ALWAYS make sure that their mate converts at the very least to the religion of "Judaism", because that way they can still on paper statistically represent their convert as "a Jew".

 

We as Armenians, do not have the luxury of having “Armenianism” be a religion AND a reference to our native ethnic lineage. Our religious reference, being a sub-set of Christianity, is completely separated from that of our ethnic or lineage reference. Thus, for you to say we can include someone of mixed background or someone that has only fractional levels of Hye lineage (ie: not of Hye parents) under the category of “Armenian” is wrong. Now that doesn’t automatically imply that we should reject them or banish them in some way, I have never in my life promoted such actions, nor will I ever, that is simply wrong, especially toward an innocent child. On the contrary, we should accept them and help maintain their Armenian fraction as long as we can through kind gestures, and a warm welcome, BUT at the same time realize that the mixed person will have more and more choices to make with each consecutive generation because he becomes more mixed. Thus the likelyhood of abandoning his Armenian fraction increases gradually. This cannot be said of a person that from generation to generation is of Hye/Hye parents, a Hye/Hye person only has the easy choice of continuing just one lineage, that of an Armenian, and that likehood far outweighs the one of a mix person continuing our traditions generation after generation. But again, blurring the lines of what “Armenian” is by making it a HUGELY broad all inclusive manner of reference is definitely a sure way to kill us as a culture.

 

 

 

 

 

 

This discussion is pointless. Vigil by all respects I would worry more about “pure” Armenians listening Turkish music all day long and shop from Arabic stores and watch Iranian TV and talk about their little “ian” ending in shameful manner.

Got to say that I agree with Boghos and also this kinds of "discussions" I find meaningless.

 

Well first and foremost, for the Nth time, I’m NOT Vigil. I met Vigil through the things he posted here and got in touch with him online. Sadly, Vigil was so disheartened by the nonsensical degenerative pessimism some of you send out on these boards, that he decided to stop posting, by the same notion, I decided it was high time for me to start posting.

 

This discussion is definitely not pointless. Any time the phrase about a discussion being pointless is used within a debate, it only diminishes your own credibility about reaching a resolution about the said topic. In general, in debates that are sanctified as “pointless” by “intellectuals”, it typically means that you’ve already made up your mind indefinitely, and given the topic at hand here and the stance similar to Boghos that you’re taking, just like him, debating is a waste of time if you truly believe things are "pointless". Because by definition, anything “inevitable” cannot be changed given even an infinite amount of time, the tide of the river has ran its course so to be speak, so even the effort of clickng “add reply” is a waste of your time.

 

Now having said this, I don’t feel even our dear friend Boghos truly feels things are “inevitable”. More likely, he is one of those folks that feels guilt for his own mental notion of having either seriously considered an odar or is in fact involved with an odar. Day to day he constantly is reminded of his lineage yet he is also emotionally bound to an odar perhaps, and perhaps he will make the choice of ending up with an odar, so be it. What really bothers me is the fact that he actively pursues to align with him those that have not yet made that choice or are perhaps in limbo about that choice. This is very analogous to failing at something then out of self-disappointment wanting someone else to fail also and even luring them into situations that increases the chances of failure. And frankly, I’m not about to sit idly by, while people like that decide to create pessimism in others simply because they chose to be pessimistic themselves.

 

And I do worry about the more minor issues that you mentioned above as well. But the fact of the matter is that while those issues are important, the root issues of inter-marriage, sexual repression, community persecution of our women, notions of promoting inevitable failure, etc, etc, are far more important and I will address those first and foremost. The things you’ve described above stem from these root problems we have, cure the root problems, and the minor issues will be wiped out. People sweat the idea of their “ian” last name in a shameful manner because they have a bourgeoisie attitude toward their culture and they judge low income Armenians because they feel they are so VERY "upper class" in this capitalistic nation.

 

Instead of trying to understand the logic of a Hayastanzi that has grown up in a socialist homeland, Parskahyes persecute him and look down on his behavior. Instead of trying to understand the logic of a Parskahye, Hayastanzis call him “weak” or “*** whipped” or some other derogatory term. So the Parskahye chooses to dissociate himself/herself from the “ian” because in some twisted manner the “ian” represents a connection to the Hayastanzi’s “un-modern” behavior. The Hayastanzi in turn calls a Parskahye girl a “bozz” yet is blind to the fact that even Hayastanzi’s need sex and in fact Hayastanzi girls go after just as many secretive sex sessions as the accused Parskahyes. So as you can see, the root problems, need to be address first. Metaphorically speaking, cut the head off a hydra and it will sprout another, stab it in the heart, and the heads will hit the ground dead shortly after.

 

 

Armenia has lot more to do with lack of progressiveness in our almost every sector of culture, society, that is the list to say, I echo you your own lines, sex and human sexuality, yes its taboo and not discussed in Armenian families, and for many here, and in our daily life’s its a very sensitive topic to discuss, in all fairness, its safe to say for a woman in this case Armenian woman you to have to agree the urge for fulfillment of that reality (desire), at list she or he can talk to there parents, and parents in there part be open minded regarding this. for which its seems to be a humongous task to achieve sad to say, and I hardly think for some of us here just to post and point out the causes for it (assimilation) are going top solve this "problem

 

You’re right, it does have to do with the lack of progression, and progression is needed. But first we have to understand that progression in its purest form is the desire to throw out notions that are disruptive and notions that impede progress. And before you can cast a notion out, you must identify it and address it, and this involves risk. In this specific case, the risk is the one the Armenian female will have to take with a Hye guy that has been raised with a backward mentality of “you have to be a virgin”, “you cannot have had previous boyfriends”, “you must be sexually novice”, etc , etc. Granted, NOT ALL, Hye men are like this, in fact more are of sane healthy mental outlook toward human sexuality than those that are not. But still, a Hye girl doesn't always know this when she meets a Hye guy so she must consider, “is he socially safe to sleep with?” , “will he judge me for wanting to do the wild thing in all forms of nasty ways?”, “does he have the mental capacity to understand that I am a human being too with a sex drive” , etc, etc . She also has to face the risk of defying her parent’s backward mentality of “have sex, but do it discreetly”, “avoid doing it with a Hye until you’re ready to be ‘serous’ with him”, “Maintain the illusion of ‘makur’ “. To me, it is ridiculous that we set SO MANY self imposing restraints on our youth. A Hye guy and girl should be able to have a one night stand with one another for the sheer reason of being horny, and nothing more. Whether each believes that is the morally right thing to do should be left to the individual, not the community to decide and then proceed persecute the couple.

 

As a Hye male, I am already at a disadvantage when approaching a Hye girl, because she has been conditioned with these stigmas. I shouldn’t have to overcome any stigmas placed by my backward community mentality in the first place, being a young male or female is difficult enough these days. I shouldn’t have to worry about convincing her that it is “socially safe” for her to decide to have her way with me physically in bed.

 

I never said implementing these changes will be easy, nor will it happen overnight. But I have said that as youth, we govern the future, not our parents. That is why we should try and take the risks with one another that are necessary to create these changes. That means that I, as a Hye male, make a Hye girl feel comfortable about her past love life and I don’t blow up in a hell bent rage the minute she mentions she actually had carnal sex with another male. And as a Hye female, one shouldn’t approach a Hye male with 20 different layers of illusionary masks that need to be maintained for the sake of social patronization, a Hye female should try and take the risk of approaching a Hye male with the same ease of approaching an odar with one’s desires emotionally and sexually. And you are right my friend, it is intimidating doing these things sometimes, it was for me when I first started, and it will be for any of you when you try for the first time to discard Armenian social stigmas with the opposite sex if you havent already, but once you do it initially, it gets easier and you will be surprised that many feel the same way and the minute they see you take the first step, they take the same steps as well.

 

 

 

Thanks for your kind and enlightened words. Just one final point: you seem to imply, by constantly coming back to this point, that there is a contradiction between maintaining an Armenian identity and "making money", that those that devote themselves to the Armenian cause in its widest sense do not have the time to become rich. Is that so?

 

You definitely have misunderstood me, I have not remotely implied that in any of the things I’ve written. In fact, I specifically have said that it is in fact possible to be a capitalistic person in personal financial gains, while at the same time making efforts toward maintaining our ethnic culture and lineage. I just don’t feel that you MUST choose one or the other indefinitely, the two can co-exist. You keep insisting that your personal economic situation, goals, etc, come above your culture, fine so be it. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that you MUST in fact completely abandon your effort toward cultural preservation, let it be secondary or tertiary and co-exist in the domain that also houses your desire to be rich, powerful, and wealthy. Just look at Kirk Kerkorian, while I will say he made the mistake of the odar marriages and thus ultimately has no one to continue his interest in helping his people, he essentially did prioritize his efforts for his lineage in some manner where he was able to be rich and still retain his cultural effort SOMEWHERE within his list of priorities instead of casting his cultural effort out completely, as you would suggest we do with your theory of “inevitability”.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I believe the problem is not mixed marriage in itself but rather the indifference to national fate which is demonstrated by "pure" armenians (thus invalidating part of your theories). The most worrying issue is not genetic mixing but spiritual assimilation and the adoption of the destructive "modern"/"western"/individualistic/materialistic mindset. Mixed marriage (in heavy volumes) is not the root of the problem but a mere consequence of this development.

 

Nothing is “the whole problem”. However, mixed marriage in any volume is in fact “a problem” and not necessarily the only one, you’re right there, but it is in fact a problem. Do not be so naïve as to think that simply because mixed marriage is a consequence of the lack of national fate OR faith, that it is not in fact a very real problem that must be addressed. And genetic mixing is a very critical issue, it’s the metaphorical equivalent of cutting a tree at the roots; it eventually leads to the blurring of the ideas of who we are, where we come from, what our lineage is, what geographical claims we can make as a people, and where we are going as a people, whether as Diasporans or living in Armenia.

 

 

 

 

I must say it is very amusing to see self-described hardcore nationalists accusing me of neglecting the fate of the Armenian people and other similarly ridiculous and childish "crimes agaisnt race". Of course I will not publish here my "Armenian" CV but I might eventually forward it to Armenian Pirate to see if I have a chance to be admitted in his compound...

 

I would like to say I never claimed to be a nationalist, nor am I on the same level as the many nationalists that tirelessly dedicate themselves to all of us, I’m just a young Hye male that is rightly concerned about where his people are going, and what implications that path has, it’s called “thinking” about the world around you and your role in it. I never said what you’re doing is a “crime against race”, don’t make any Adolph Hitleresque accusations of me like that ever. This is not MY compound, I’m a guest here just like you and everyone else that shows up here to post or read up. However, your ideas are very dangerous and let’s face it, they are also very culturally apocalyptic, and in a time where our youth are so impressionable, I find it amazing that you just post away in such a pessimistic and irresponsible manner and actually promote a lack of effort. I don’t debate with you to make you feel bad or to attack your character, so do not take it like that because it seems like you are with what you’ve written. And I hope you don’t just post the things you say just to stir up personal “amusement”.

 

 

Meeting 3 Armenian nationalists seems to be a great achivement for one whereas the other brings the example of the Jews as proof rather than perhaps one of the very few exceptions at the most.

 

Yes I did meet them, and I didn’t mention that as a boast, I mentioned it to help make my point about the topic at hand, again you’re making personal attacks on me and Axel it seems.

 

 

 

Such is the fate of many of our communities in the diaspora, or at least of some of our institutions. To be ruled by such minded people that obviously have not been able to achieve success in the real world and hence create a make believe fanatsyland where they become the Knights of Armenianhood that go around with their banners held high proclaiming to be the saviours of the race. Nothing more quixotesque. These are the very people that through their ignorance and xenophobia have driven out many good people. It doesn´t take long for people that are independently minded and strong willed, as many Armenians are, to forsake "community" living for the more ventilated and open minded world of odars.

 

 

And how do you know how successful I am as a person? I may be more successful than you can possibly fathom both educationally as well as financially and yet still choose to sit down and write out responses for my fellow Armenians to read and debate because I simply care about these topics. How can you possibly make such an assumption about anyone and furthermore, what does success have to do with wanting to show effort for your own lineage and people? And how is my desire to promote my culture, help my people survive, keep my lineage alive, provide an identity for myself on the world stage, and insure that my geographical rights are respected for my homeland in any way worse than your idea of a morbid social apocalypse about us Hyes and how things are bleak and “inevitable”?

 

 

Also, how you can equate any of my response to simple “ignorance” or “xenophobia” is astounding. I’m willing to bet that as radical as you would like to make me sound in front of other readers, I am at least 10 times less prejudice than you, and anyone that knows me will attest to this fact in a heartbeat. I’m no “Knight”, I’m just a man that gives a $hit, you obviously have long given up and now you’re trying to lick your own wounds of guilt by trying to drag down as many others with you as you possible can with broadcasts of cultural doom. Maybe what I say sounds “fantastic” to you because you’ve become so jaded by the media manipulations that go on today on a daily basis as a means to get people to believe in ideas of discarding ethnicity, culture, lineage, heritage, and the many other factors that make us unique groups. And God knows it’s easier to control ONE BIG group VS many smaller groups. That is what “globalization” and “we’re all one big happy human race” ideas try to accomplish through the media’s promotion and duplicity. We obviously are all human beings, and we all bleed red, but we also have distinct unique sub-sects called "lineage" and "culture" that make us who we are, and that I'm not about to give up because some intellectual wants to promote it on MSNBC or some socialite is trying to sell it on MTV.

 

These are the very people that through their ignorance and xenophobia have driven out many good people.

 

EVERYTHING I’ve said has revolved around WORKING TOGETHER to achieve a bigger goal that is essential in modern times while not sacrificing our lineage and heritage and the best you can do is that one liner? How is me saying “Do not persecute our hye women for their sexuality so that they DO NOT in fact run astray or be driven away” equate to me driving “good people” away? Try using more logic and less vindictive banter in your debates. If anything, I have as a person been able to bring together more Hayastanzis, Parskahyes, and Lipanahyes through my actions in person than you ever will with your ideas of “lets disperse we’re doomed anyway”. And yet you actually have the audacity to make false personal attacks and accusations about me? If anything YOU are the one that uses your ridiculous ideas of hopelessness to drive people away because you one day decided to give up and maybe you just can’t stand the fact that you made that decision. Even with everything you’ve said, I still see you as my fellow Hye, and I’m trying to make you see things in a light that perhaps you have not yet considered, I’m no saint, this is a debate and in debates you express ideas to be considered, and that is EXACTLY what I’ve done.

 

It doesn´t take long for people that are independently minded and strong willed, as many Armenians are, to forsake "community" living for the more ventilated and open minded world of odars. As for the example of the Jews: I will just say that the Jews are not a race but essentially a religion which membership is gained mostly through matriarcal lines. But where are the Swedes that immigrated to the Midwest, the Italians, even the Koreans, the Japanese, they have to different degrees been assimilated into American society; there are other countless examples, the Germans in the Alsace just to point to another relatively recent and European example. It just happens to be like that, nothing that Mickey Mouse or Armenian Pirate or whomever can really do about it short of immigrating to Armenia.

 

 

I’m very much independently minded, so much so, that I do not buy into the hype of anything being “inevitably” hopeless to achieve the way you do simply because of some social trend or expectation of me doing so in a given environment, in this case that environment being the “melting pot” of the United States. Nor do I believe at first glance any media machinations that exist by the dozen out there on the tube and in books about what exactly it means to be an “American”, or be “Americanized”, or why I should “assimilate” into any society like a good little sheep simply because that is the supposed “inevitable” order of things in the society that I live in.

 

Calling me names like “Mickey Mouse” as a personal attack won’t add any more credibility to what you say, if anything it makes what you say more of a prideful whine than an actual retort within a debate. You made a choice of giving up, and you have every right to it, just live with that choice and believe in inevitability, I have decided to do otherwise.

 

There are two kinds of people in this world, those that set standards, and those that follow them. You follow the standards set by media and “American” pop culture about assimilating and losing your identity, I’ll choose to set my own standard of keeping my lineage, heritage, cultural values, history, and my right to being part of a unique group of wonderful people while also taking care of my personal finances, sexual desires, buying that big house, my fast car, and marrying my gorgeous HYE girlfriend.

 

 

 

 

 

I am not saying anything new. Just look at Armenian and world history.

 

Yes, just look at it, and realize that if Hyes thought like you do throughout history, we wouldn’t HAVE a history in the first place and you wouldn’t exist to preach your idea of inevitable doom to begin with.

 

So the Armenians are sexually repressed? I don't think so. That maybe true for a small part of single Armenians, but most Armenians are married and are therefore not sexually repressed. Besides, even single Armenians have many opportunities not to be sexually repressed. I think yours is an exaggerated view.

 

Yes they are in fact repressed to an unhealthy degree, at very least more so than your average level of taboo on the topic when compared to 85% of other cultures. Obviously Armenians are having sex when married, but the notion of having a sexual relationship with someone of the other sex long before you’re ready to marry them is shunned in a very fanatical manner in our community, I see this as a problem, one of many, but a problem never the less. It drives our youth apart from each other for no other reason except the fact that the girl feels afraid of persecution and the guy has to overcome stigmas by the girl of him being a judgmental prick if she decides to have a wild night of sex with him. All 1500 of you know this to be true, there is no denying it and it definitely is not exaggerated, Sasun jan. So it’s time to change things, and it begins with stripping ourselves of these conditioned notions that we hold against each respective opposite sex and ALSO believing that changing these old stigmas is possible, nothing is inevitable, NOTHING.

 

I’d like everyone on these boards to understand that what I write is not meant to be an attack on anyone personally, including you Boghos jan. We are here to talk and debate, to present each other with ideas that we need to contemplate. For a debate to truly be effective, nothing must be taken personally. Have a good night everyone.

 

 

-The Armenian Pirate

Edited March 30, 2004 by TheArmenianPirate

[mx5]

I also decided not to post here but had to say this.

 

They are people like Armenian piarate that will carry the torch.

both from me my wife and many friends who are reading this posts we are proud to have intelectuals like you within us.

 

although we suspect that you are older than you claim!!!

 

 

H.B

[mx5]

there is a town in Lebanon is called Zghorta,the inhebitents are Christian maronites,their family names are armenian,these are Armenian soldiers who came escroting the crusaders to the middle east hundred of years ago,after their mission was over they were stuck here with no means of returning home.

 

you know why?may be you dont know ,its a big secret,because there were no Telephone they could contact back home,there were no airplanes,no internet no TV

 

if you look around the time has changed,you cannot compare the situation of certain comunities hundreds of years ago to our time,unless you mind is living in that period.

 

do you think it is a "simple"matter to drive a whole diaspora into extinction?!!

 

may be for you but not for most of us.