Preservation of Armenian identity

[nairi]

Just one question (I apologize for not having read everything, although I did try to gloss, so forgive me if this has already been discussed here -- in that case, give me a link please): do you see a difference between identity and culture? Or are they both the same? For instance, a person who identifies himself as an Armenian but who has converted to Hinduism: is this person still an Armenian in your eyes? Or a person who identifies himself as an Armenian but doesn't observe "Armenian traditions"? And does it matter whether this person has Armenian parents or not?

[Boghos]

Hello Pirate,

 

I sense so much anger in your words. Your caricaturesque nationalism is just an expression of that.

There is no contradiction between being an intellectual and being an activist. Unless of course you believe that the way of a stormtrooper is the best way.

Denying our intellectual heritage is just another expression of self-destruction.

 

Your assertion that you have not insulted anybody directly or indirectly simply does not stand under the most flimsy scrutiny. But I have had it with your rather obtuse and obscure ways. I on the other hand will say that I ironized and made a series of sarcastic remarks, some less others more obvious. Every time you read my posts you may find a new one that you had not previously seen. Have fun.

[Twilight Bark]

Don’t take this the wrong way, but that’s a pretty damn arrogant comment to say to everyone that reads or posts on these boards. I didn’t realize that you are so far above the rest of us that our merely mortal words only draw you out when you have absolutely nothing else to do and decide to grace us with your cosmic presence. Seriously, tone down the condescending socialite routine a little, we’re here to debate about important topics that affect us all, not swing our IQ testicles toward one another.

I do take it the "wrong" way, which is the only way it could be taken. With your permission, dear high commissioner, I will choose whom I like and whom I don't. I will choose whom I consider an intellectually compatible person. Boghos and I (my membership number is misleading) are "old-timers" here, and we understand each other pretty well I think. Do you mind?

 

I do not consider my presence as a gift of any kind, and I do not consider any of my body parts, brain or testicles, a special source of pride, for the simple reason that I did not build them; I was born with them. I do act "arrogantly" towards people that deserve it well. If you observe my instances of being less than pleasant, you will see that it reflects my lack of patience with arrogant stupidity, even though I am infinitely patient with innocent stupidity. Raw brain power is nothing to be proud of. A toxic personality, however, is not something that we should consider unavoidable. So I must consider "toxic dum-dums who think they are extra-smart" as another source of temptation to write.

 

There are some points in this thread that deserve further elaboration, and I'll do my part as I find time.

[DominO123]

this last post is the longest post I have ever seen I think....

Ahhhmmmm... ahmmmm... Do I need to refresh your memory?

 

 

 

----

"You insist on doing it over and over again, and your credibility just goes down further each time you resort to such tactics. I'm beginning to doubt that you're even 10 years my senior the way you claim to be. Stop with the insinuating personal attacks and grow up. You can't make your side of the debate any more relevant by resorting to ridicule tactics toward me and my character, so please just stop."

 

I am of the few whom printed your posts(this is what I do when a post is long enough to hurt my eyes) and I think have read them all. What I am surprised of is that Boghos actually answered you. Usually he does not answer to nonesense, it is not in his nature. So I apologise on his behalf.

[Accelerated]

Do I need to refresh your memory?

 

nah bro, forget I mentioned anything about long posts

[gurgen]

That's what intellectuals are and they do nothing but write and talk, but never take action towards getting any goals achieved, hence actions takers will always be more important and far more relevant in this world.

Careful with these ideas Pirate, you are beginning to sound a lot like a certain German man with a small moustache.

 

You are forgetting that the intellectual actually thinks about what the best action is to be taken by your heroic 'action taker'. He tells, and the other does. If everyone would just 'take action without thinking it through, there would be not much world, would there? Intellectuals may never take any action towards getting goals achieved by your standard (though this is certainly false), they are the ones who come up with the goals in the first place.

[mx5]

from my prespective here is what I think,

 

I am a chess player, usually there are two types of chess players,one who goes the way of deep and long analysis the other uses his intuition.

 

as much as the former is prone to make mistakes in his analysis the later also cannot rely on his intuition alone.

 

Boghos's intuition sugests that the diaspora will dissapear in the long term(he didnt elaborate much further ,he could have meant that all of the diaspora would immigrate back to Armenia!!!) , while on the other hand we have Pirate's deep analysis tries to prove that it is not necessarily so.It is as simple as that ...but the real problem here is that this is not just another game of chess ,when the game is over you forget about it and start another.

 

whatever is written here are read by hundreds or even thousands of individuals,which in a way or another could have the wrong impect on them...

Edited April 15, 2004 by mx5

[gurgen]

whatever is written here are read by hundreds or even thousands of individuals,which in a way or another could have the wrong impect on them...

I don't think it's our responsibility to think for other people who are easily influenced. People here state their opinions and give arguments. If those arguments are good enough for some to accept the point, then so be it.

[Twilight Bark]

from my prespective here is what I think,

 

I am a chess player, usually there are two types of chess players,one who goes  the way of deep and long analysis the other uses his intuition.

 

as much as the former is prone to make mistakes in his analysis the later also cannot rely on his intuition alone.

 

Boghos's intuition sugests that the diaspora will dissapear in the long term(he didnt elaborate much further ,he could have meant that all of the diaspora would immigrate back to Armenia!!!) , while on the other hand we have Pirate's deep analysis tries to prove  that it is not necessarily so.

I think you have it backwards. Boghos is being dispassionate about the fate of the diaspora, and Pirate represents the emotional approach. Both have their place.

 

Consider this: The "replacement rate" for fertility is about 2.1 children per woman. From what I see, three- or four-child Armenian households are not very common. The typical is two kids, with a significant number of one-child families. My guess is that the fertility rate in the diaspora is slightly below the replacement rate to begin with. Now consider a wildly optimistic 20% assimilation rate, which decreases the "effective fertility" even further, and what you get is an asymptotic decay of disaporan numbers to zero. This will not change by "individual effort", because the number of individuals who make the "effort" would still be handicapped by the erosion of the base number, unless there is a coherent "sea change" that results in a collective change of attitudes of a magnitude that reverses the math above.

 

There are other inconsistencies in Pirate's long, passionate, but not-so-deep "analysis", but maybe we can talk about them some other time.

[mx5]

Now consider a wildly optimistic 20% assimilation rate,

did you happen to consider that 20% might be fed by the immigrants flowing from mainland Hayastan itself,leaving the numbers both there and diaspora unchanged?

[Twilight Bark]

did you happen to consider that 20% might be fed by the immigrants flowing from mainland Hayastan itself,leaving the numbers both there and diaspora unchanged?

Yes of course. If you notice, somewhere in the preceding dialogue I do say "in the absence of fresh additions", or something to that effect. That is an obvious corrolary. And I don't think anyone here wants to preserve the diaspora by "fresh additions".

[mx5]

I don't think it's our responsibility to think for other people who are easily influenced. People here state their opinions and give arguments. If those arguments are good enough for some to accept the point, then so be it.

when I came to this forum not long time ago I had great expactations and different opinion about the American-Armenian comunity there,I was realy rediculed by some guys about this(you can read it in the lebanese Armenian thread)and warned against such expactations.

 

they were right and I was wrong,most of the posters here will argue you both ways!!what I mean is that if you say its white,they will tell you no its black and vice versa(example Twilight Bark) .

 

the most consistent so far i've seen is Armenian Pirate,and I will have special respect to him...

[mx5]

Yes of course.  If you notice, somewhere in the preceding dialogue I do say "in the absence of fresh additions", or something to that effect.

have you also noticed when i mentioned somewhere that we have always been and will be 6 million!!...

so the argument that diaspora will disappear is not realy tenable after all,because ther will always be a new wave coming, but may be then we will never increase in number..

 

I will give you as example Lebanon where i live and was born.

Lebanon has population of 3.5 million,and has a diaspora of 16 million!!

this has been going for 150 years now,the number of population never changed in lebanon long time ago but the diaspora kept on growin..

Edited April 15, 2004 by mx5

[Twilight Bark]

have you also noticed when i mentioned somewhere that we have always been and will be 6 million!!...

Mathematically, that would be unsustainable, since the fertility rate in the homeland is about 1.6 at the moment, I think.

 

But what a dismal view. Much more dismal than the prediction of a disappearing diaspora. So the function of the homeland is to supply more biological material for the countries hosting the diaspora, where the diaspora acts the middle man? Yuck.

Edited April 15, 2004 by Twilight Bark

[mx5]

But what a dismal view.

yes Im afraid it is ,if there are guys who doesnt have responsible approach towards certain issues and will drive people towards hopelessnes .those who will be assimilated will do it by there own will,nobody will force them to,and those who will stay Armenians will do it also because of their will power.

 

1.6 rate if that is true can never be final and could be easily changed in the future with any progress in economy

 

pls. read my modifyed post about lebanon,in the previous post

Edited April 15, 2004 by mx5

[mx5]

I don't think it's our responsibility to think for other people who are easily influenced. People here state their opinions and give arguments. If those arguments are good enough for some to accept the point, then so be it.

sustaining our own existense starts here ,yes on this same forum and with every thread and post we submit,things that you dont give a shit about might make a great differnce with lots of people .

Edited April 15, 2004 by mx5

[Twilight Bark]

yes Im afraid it is ,if there are guys who doesnt have responsible approach towards certain issues and will drive people towards hopelessnes .those who will be assimilated will do it by there own will,nobody will force them to,and those who will stay Armenians will do it also because of their will power.

 

pls. read my modifyed post about lebanon,in the previous post

Then it turns out that you agree more with Boghos than Pirate, as far as the underlying diasporan dynamics.

 

I'd rather be optimistic about the future of Armenia than the preservation of a hemorrhaging diaspora. I'd rather dream of an Armenia that has two gleaming metropolises that act as a regional, and why not, a global powerhouse of cultural, scientific and economic activity. I want to dream of an Armenia that easily houses 20 million people, whose "overflow" would be establishing commercial colonies in the neighboring countries, acting as conduits of more progress and good will. I find it insulting to think of Armenia as a supplier of immigrants to faraway lands to their eventual assimilation.

[mx5]

Boghos's intuition sugests that the diaspora will dissapear in the long term(he didnt elaborate much further ,he could have meant that all of the diaspora would immigrate back to Armenia!!!) ,

Im afraid it was me but not boghos who sugested the reverse immigration even in a previous post.

 

there will always be a diaspora untill all the armenians there have decided to go back home,what boghos has sugested is the essimilation of diaspora as a whole but not as individuals ,which I do not agree,and Pirates argument will be sustainable,because untill we all decide to go back home we have to preserve ourselves as an identity and heritage and never give in to different cultures .

 

also when i said that the essimilated will be sabstituted by new -comers from mainland,however bitter it is true,If you believe in essimilation part of diaspora and beeing realistic about it then why dont be realistic also about immigration from Armenia itself,which I and my family are agaist it completely,tahts why me my wife and my son shall visit yerevan this summer,to see the possibility of moving there in the future,

 

as after visiting this forum it is unlikley that we even have the fantest idea of moving to America,

 

that is one plus for the negetivity of this forum!!!!!

Edited April 15, 2004 by mx5

[Twilight Bark]

Im afraid it was me but not boghos who sugested the reverse immigration even in a previous post.

To keep concepts coherent, one needs to treat the separate but related concepts of underlying assimilation behavior of the diaspora itself, and the immigration into and out of Armenia separately.

 

It seems we agree that the diapora would implode without fresh additions from Armenia.

 

there will always be a diaspora untill all the armenians there have  decided to go back home,

Always? Only if there is "always" fresh additions from Armenia.

 

what boghos has sugested is the essimilation of diasporians as individuals and culture,which I do not agree,

I don't think he "suggested" that it be done. He simply predicted that it would eventually occur to any diasporan family after an arbitrary but finite number of generations.

 

and Pirates argument will be sustainable,because untill we all decide to go back home we have to preserve ourselves as an identity and heritage and never give in to different cultures .

Pirate says it all depends on "individual initiative". Well, in that case, see my argument above. It is not a self-sustaining idea. And "deciding to go back home" will realistically happen only when my aforementioned dreams comes a bit closer to being a reality (as it stands, it should start with "in a galaxy far far away ...)

 

also when i said that the essimilated will be sabstituted by new -comers from mainland,however bitter it is true,If you believe in essimilation part of diaspora and beeing realistic about it then why dont be realistic also about immigration from Armenia itself,which I and my family are agaist it completely,tahts why me my wife and my son shall visit yerevan this summer,to see the possibility of moving there in the future,

But I am being realistic. I am simply enumerating the possibilities and preferred scenarios. When something is a dream rather than a prediction, I honestly say so. My sincere best wishes in your quest to find a niche in the homeland.

 

as after visiting this forum it is unlikley that we even have the fantest idea of moving to America,

America is designed to assimilate the newcomers into a "melting pot". In the past, it relied on more heavy-handed tactics. Nowadays it simply waits for its cultural machinery to take care of it slowly, nicely, and surely. So yes, it would not be the best place for "preservation". Edited April 15, 2004 by Twilight Bark

[Boghos]

I will give you as example Lebanon where i live and was born.

Lebanon has population of 3.5 million,and has a diaspora of 16 million!!

The Lebanese "diaspora" of 16 million is just a figment of imagination. Most of these people don´t know a word of Arabic, have never been to Lebanon. They carry a Lebanese surname and that´s about it, especially those that immigrated before WW2 to pla.es like Argentina, Brazil, Mexico and the US. Your example just helps proving my point.

[Twilight Bark]

they were right and I was wrong,most of the posters here will argue you both ways!!what I mean is that if you say its white,they will tell you no its black and vice versa(example Twilight Bark) .

 

the most consistent so far i've seen is Armenian Pirate,and I will have special respect to him...

What is your problem exactly? Do you want rational discourse or kindergarten level parroting of what you want to hear? You claim to be a chess-player, but fail to show any of the mental discipline that would be required of one. So far, all I have seen from you is a consistent misdefinition of just about everything you try to handle. In your lingo, an intuitive, emotional approach becomes "in-depth, rational analysis", a dispassionate and honest assessment of a situation becomes "intuitive", clear mathematical facts get responses twisted up in self-conflicting non-logic. And you are talking about disappointment and negativity. Enough is enough. I expressed my sympathy about all the preservation stuff. I certainly do my part in my family. However, if you expected me to submit to half-baked trivial interpretations of reality, it is no surprise that you are disappointed. Just be honest with yourself and admit that you cannot handle a rational view of reality, instead of demanding a suspension of reason.

[axel]

The numbers are somewhat misleading. Looking at the entire diaspora population is not a correct way of evaluating demographical dynamics and tendencies. One should only look at the reduced subset of self-conscious Armenians instead of considering all people of armenian descent. The former are the one who will sustain the armenian identity in the long run. While we may see decline and assimilation eating away "peripheral" armenians, there is no fatality for the core group not to grow. It is just a question of faith, and will.

 

So I believe TAP is justified in most of his views (I have no time to elaborate on the minor points of disagreement we may have, the main one has already been pointed out by gurgen, actually). I prefer passionate faith and heroic willpower to dry rationalistic pessimism. The former is life, the latter is death. I believe in resurrection.

[Boghos]

I prefer passionate faith and heroic willpower to dry rationalistic pessimism. The former is life, the latter is death. I believe in resurrection.

I am not quite clear on what is heroic willpower but suffices to say that emotions and rationality are not contradictory concepts. We should not go much beyond the end of the XIX century to observe how blind voluntarism led to more harm than good. Yervant Odian has a very good representation of this in "Comrade Panchoonie".

 

Maybe heroic willpower is having a sticker in your car that says "Fedayner". Yes, I have seen it, with an Armenian flag in the background, unfortunately these revolutionaries which I am well acquainted with very much enjoy the empty symbolism involved in these actions but do very little in practical terms to help the cause of Armenianism. Their biographies are nothing but failure, with the exception of one Turkish flag burning here and there, grafitti and the like. Do you think Asala helped Armenia and Armenians, for example ?

 

The anti-intellectual tradition is alien to Armenians, insofar as it doesn´t negate the inherent practicality that permeates our culture (even though it often doesn´t seem like it). Armenians tend to be good problem solvers, no wonder we have excellent engineers, doctors, chess players, mathematicians, physicists and so on. So appealing to some kind of primordial spirit is nothing but cheap populism. Armenians that subscribe to this sort of view have created a deep split in communities around the world, to the point that marrying a member of the "other camp" was considered almost a crime. Is that conceivable ? Is that acceptable ? Isn´t that an absolute contradiction ?

[axel]

I believe you do not understand what I say. In fact, you reason in terms of limited categories I happen to be totally foreign to.

 

You picked one sentence and wrote three mostly irrelevant (and emotional) paragraphs.

 

PS: I am not very good in english but I believe rationality and rationalism are two separate things.

[Boghos]

I believe you do not understand what I say. In fact, you reason in terms of limited categories I happen to be totally foreign to.

 

You picked one sentence and wrote three mostly irrelevant (and emotional) paragraphs.

 

PS: I am not very good in english but I believe rationality and rationalism are two separate things.

You seem to be deprived of the most elementary analytic logic as your statement shows. The second paragraph contradicts the first...

 

At the root of these contradictions might be the fact that in spite of being half-Armenian you are against mixed-marriages. Bravo !

 

It is not a matter of reasoning in what you call "limited categories" but rather that you do not have the knowledge to understand what I am saying. In any case, enough time has been wasted on you and your brother in arms.