Preservation of Armenian identity

[TheArmenianPirate]

Vigil, that statement is absolutely rediculous. It is so shallow and short sighted, I can't even begin to think on how to treat it. "An entire legion of his own people in Africa"? Are you serious? Do you see the entire continent of Africa as this giant sahara desert with lions and tigers and black people?  

 

How can you possibly have any idea where sev's roots are from? On top of that, how can you possibly be sure that he can fall back on his people, unless of course by "his people" you mean humans with genes that will make babies that will look chocolatey 

 

About the wonderfulness of being Armenian ... I simply refuse to base my life around circumstances, cultures, and religions that have been bestowed upon me by birth alone. I pride myself in having a brain, and I pride myself in being able to think. The culture, the people, the lifestyle, the religion, and the way of life I pick and choose should mostly be dictated by myself. And frankly, I rather not be part of this "elite club" (you call it "Armenian") that would not have a member like our sev_mard just because he is black.

 

Because let's face it ... if his skin color was white, with the way he has picked up Armenian and is talking like a blbul, he would have easily fooled most of us into thinking he is from Abaran. 

 

Like I said before, do not use the crutch retort of taking my words and twisted them to be stereotypical in some way. The word "legion" does in fact equate to a "very large group", and yes, there exist a VERY large group of African Americans on the continent of Africa, thus the word legion is very appropriate. Do not make the mistake of turning my articulation into a "racist" focal point. With words like "chocolatey" you've just made the first stereotypical comment here, not me.

 

Next, I may not know where Sev-Mart's roots are exactly from, but if he is in fact African-American , than I'm certain it originated from one of the sub sect of African culture at some point. And yes, he CAN in fact fall back on his people because if he decides to procreate with a non African American, statistically there will be MANY more black men that WILL keep his genetic lineage going. The same cannot be said of an Armenian which decides to move outside our cultural circle. In fact the plain truth is, we barely have a net gain in population because it is nearly at a steady state as far as births and deaths go worldwide. This terrifies me, and frankly, I'm surprised you can sit there with your smug little "intellectual" dribble and promote further decline in what already is a critical situation without thinking about the catastrophic effects your viewpoint has on us as a people.

 

What I say is not ridiculous, it is in fact the truth. What IS ridiculous is that you pulled the "racist/prejudice" card on me even before Sev-Mart did. But like I said before, I probably have more black friends than the two of you put together and this issue has nothing to do with WHAT Sev-Mart is. If Sev-Mart was in fact Spitak-Mart with blond hair, blue eyes, with the smile of swedish male model, I would still say the same thing. I don't care if someone is black, white, pink, or purple, I do not want inter-marriage of any kind because that is what will lead to the destruction of my identity, my lineage, and yes eventually my culture.

 

"The culture, the people, the lifestyle, the religion, and the way of life I pick and choose should mostly be dictated by myself. And frankly, I rather not be part of this "elite club" (you call it "Armenian") that would not have a member like our sev_mard just because he is black   

 

I find it proposterous to read things like this. The culture , people, lifestyle, religion, and way of life should in fact be dictated by yourself, you're right there Seaphan jan. But if you so adamantly have decided that non of those things will include the Armenian culture, the Armenian people, Armenian lifestyle, and the preservation of all aspects of Armenianism which includes genetic lineage, lifestyle, culture, and values, then frankly you have no business here on these boards. If you like, I can recommend some nice Mandarin Budist message boards you can post on to your heart's content.

 

Lastly, Armenianism is not an "elite club", please do not ever make addenums to things that I've written on your own and claim them to be my statements. I never said we're elite or any better than Sev-Mart's culture, but we are RARE and unless we want it to become even more scarce, we should be a bit more serious about preserving that lineage. Again that means, a hye guy having sex with a hye girl and producing beautiful HYE children. I wish I had the luxury of being as idealistic as you with your intellectual bravado about how we can afford to lose Hyes to inter-marriage or about how as human beings it is our choice to choose to inter-marry. But I'm a realist, and the reality of the situation is that yes we do in fact have that choice, but having that choice doesn't necessarily mean that we should just go ahead and make it without a single thought toward the fact that if we DO make that choice, we compromise our entire lineage which MY ancestors have shed blood for, died for , and fought for. And if you do think about that choice and still decide it's not important enough to marry a hye girl/guy , then I pity you. Because the greatest loss anyone can go through is that of one's upbringing, values, and behavioural norms which stem from culture and lineage.

 

One final point I'd like to make. Anyone that decides to reply to me, please do not make accusations of racism or prejudice at a whim. Yes I am ethnocentric, I love my culture and think it's great, and sadly the media these days has made ethnocentrism the equavalent of prejudice/racism, which it certainly is not. With so few of us left, if we're to have any hope of survival, we as hyes have to have a degree of ethnocentrism in order to motivate us to preserve our heritage. That may sound a bit sinical, but it is the reality of our situation. When someone comes at me with the "he's black, you're racist" card or the "you're an anti-semite" card, it only tells me that the person has fallen prey to the machinations of today's media. Believe me if I was racist in any way I would not take the time writing any of this in an acceptable manner when I can just write a couple brutal sentences with negative racial comments. So if you're going to make a point then by all means make a point, but DON'T do it with a "racist" or "anti-semite" counterpoint as the crux of your arguement, if anything, it just makes you look like a manipulated neo-socialite or worse, an "intellectual" that can talk all day but couldn't take one step toward any real action.

 

And by the way, Vigil and I are not one in the same, trust me on that one.

 

-The Armenian Pirate

Edited March 26, 2004 by TheArmenianPirate

[sev-mard]

But like I said before, I probably have more black friends than the two of you put together and this issue has nothing to do with WHAT Sev-Mart is.

To Vigils Older Brother,

 

Granted I debated posting my next comment because it's kind of silly, but how do figure the above?

I mean I noticed it the first time you said and I noticed it again? What would lead you to assume that you have more black friends that me? And another person combined? I don't know where you live so that maybe possible if you're surrounded by black folks but what is that statment about? Don't worry I'm not about the race card here, but people who do have issues with race usually say that. I don't hate black people, I have lots of black friends. My best friend is black. I've heard it before. I just don't know what you think saying that proves, or are you trying to imply about me? Just a question.

[Vigil]

To Vigils Older Brother

 

The only thing that relates us is the similar ideas we share on this forum.

Edited May 31, 2004 by Vigil

[TheArmenianPirate]

Granted I debated posting my next comment because it's kind of silly, but how do figure the above?

I mean I noticed it the first time you said and I noticed it again? What would lead you to assume that you have more black friends that me? And another person combined? I don't know where you live so that maybe possible if you're surrounded by black folks but what is that statment about? Don't worry I'm not about the race card here, but people who do have issues with race usually say that. I don't hate black people, I have lots of black friends. My best friend is black. I've heard it before. I just don't know what you think saying that proves, or are you trying to imply about me? Just a question.

 

It's natural that I reiterate it twice bud. Because instead of actually focusing on everything else I wrote and actually addressing the issues I brought up, you and Seaphan pulled the race card. I really cannot make it any more clear that I definitely am not prejudice toward any single ethnic group. I couldn't care less that you happen to be African-American Sev, I do ABSOLUTELY care that you're not Hye and on top of that you feel that in some way I should just accept the fact that you waltz into my lineage and disrupt it by dabbling in the idea of "inter-marriage". Where were your people when my great grandfather was being driven out of land that has been his for 3000+ years? Where were you when Armenian children were being sliced at their lower thighs by Turks so that they would be crippled for life? Where have you been when for nearly 100 years now, the killing of over a million of my brothers and sisters has been blatantly ignored due to political agendas? Where were you when my people built the churches and mosks that exist near eastern Turkey only to have it all be taken away from them? And now the most precious part of my culture, our beautiful and wonderful Hye women which happen to be my only link to my unborn Hye children, are being diverted toward odars by outdated social sexual stigmas and I'm supposed to act like a liberal child of globalization and sit back and let it happen? Think again my friend.

 

The fact is neither you nor anyone else that is not a young Armenian can possibly even fathom the dissapointment and anguish that I, as an Armenian male, feel when I see some Hye girl being diverted to an odar due to proposterous social stigmas about sexuality. Regardless what anyone else says, the truth is the truth, and the truth is that given some ultra conservative community stigmas about sexuality, it is MUCH more easy, socially safe, as well as convenient for a female Hye to basically have a sexual relationship with an Odar. I guarantee every Hye girl reading this right now will agree. To me this is pitiful, it is killing MY ethnic identity and lineage, I will not allow it to happen. When we as a people needed to survive, it was Hye men and women that fought and died to allow for that survival, and now that things are getting better, an odar will never be allowed to reap the fruits of my fallen ancestors that bled so that I can say words like "barev", have my Hye children with a wonderful hye girl, and to plant my Hye seed for the next generation.

 

Sev, you're a good guy, I absolutely have nothing personally against you or your people. But do not ever approach any Hye community and somehow justify your disruption of our lineage by stating that "I'll treat her well", because frankly, that insults me and any self respecting hye male. Believe me, as much as you think that hye girl is precious, I promise you that without actually being a hye yourself, it's not possible to feel how precious I as a hye male believe she is. To me she is the future beyond my mortal life, she is the path for my people to continue to prosper, to you she can never be more than just your wife that you love because your kids will not be part of my lineage and eventually their own kids will not remember what a Hye is. THIS is the truth everyone, realize it and stop this madness about inter-marriage or how things are not worth it, because they are worth it.

 

Sev, if you still cannot comprehend why it is that I so despise the idea of my lineage being disrupted, let me make a comparison to your own culture. To me when I see a Hye with a non-hye with mixed children, I feel a part of me is lost and will never come back. I also feel that my culture has become less existent on the face of this Earth, and it is ALREADY so RARE that the single loss of one Hye to a non-Hye DOES MAKE A DIFFERENCE. The pain and disapointment is difficult to understand by an odar. But imagine if you will , that for every non African-American that married and had kids with an African-American, in Africa a native black man is enslaved. And while during that moment your only comforting thought about that singular enslavement may be that there still are SO many free black men on other continents, I as an Armenian, cannot say the same thing about having "so many" Hyes to rely on to perpetuate my lineage when a Hye is lost to a non-hye. The pain you would feel seeing a fellow black man enslaved is the same pain I feel when I see the loss of a Hye to a non-Hye through marriage. I hope you can understand what I'm trying to depict here emotionally for you.

 

Instead of us Hyes dabbling in ideas of intermarriage or some other nonsense that LITERALLY chops our culture out of existence at the roots. We should look inside communities and educate parents that repress our youth sexually and drive young hye girls and guys apart, leading them to odars. Hye men/boys should know better than to ridicule a hye girl with things like "makur ches" or persecute hye women that share their bodies with their hye lovers. Likewise, Hye women should not be so quick to look at a hye male and say "if I sleep with him or make love to him like a wild banshee, he will judge me negatively", the truth is ladies, we're not all like that, and those that are can be changed. If there exist one constant in the universe it is that nothing is constant, change is always possible and we as a people should never lose hope and abandon each other.

 

Instead of hye fathers telling their sons that a non virgin is a "bozz", he should teach his son the Eibuben, our history, and folklore of our people. And instead of hye mothers telling their daughters, "if you decide to sleep with a boy, be sure he is an odar or from another hye community, other wise our pativ will be gone", these mothers should teach them about giving a sincere hye boy a chance and they should promote the pursuit of hye lovers for their daughters not odars. THIS is the social problem we face today ladies and gentlemen, and resorting to inter-marriage, ideas of mixed children being considered Hye simply because they can speak Armenian, or secretive sexual escapades is not the solution if we're to survive as a people, AND WE WILL SURVIVE, never ever lose hope for our people, it is the most powerful force in the universe. Instead make an effort to instigate these changes I have spoken of, talk to each other, stop with this "ahmot" nonsense about taboo topics, fix the social problems and we will prosper like we've never prospered before. Have a great weekend everyone!

 

-The Armenian Pirate

Edited March 27, 2004 by TheArmenianPirate

[Sasun]

Ironically, the Hye culture (and tradition) that you are so eagerly trying to preserve does not allow casual sexual relationship between unmarried hye girls and boys. I see a contradiction here. Maybe such a culture does not have to be preserved after all?

 

On a more important note, I don't share your extreme view. I don't see why you don't want to let Sev-mard alone - he has no fault here. The guy has fallen in love with a girl, and what a misfortune it is - the girl happens to be an Armenian.

Come on now, its more than impolite already to focus on one guy's relationship. It's not like he is trying to marry all Armenian women (in which case I would start worrying ) and thus cut our lineage. Besides, if there is any blame at all it's not the odars that should be blamed but hyes that are not conscious enough of their heritage. I know you are talking about that also but Sev-mard and any odars should be absolutely left out of such discussions. Blaming, on the other hand, is useless. No one will change their ways of life because somebody is blaming him/her. It's time to realize that. The most you can do is encourage, inspire in other ways.

Well, that's my thought - don't take it as a lesson. I don't think I am entitled to teach you, and I wouldn' like someone to teach me what I regard my personal, private domain.

I hope this helps.

[Sasun]

I would also be very curious to see any evidence of 'Armenian genes' that people often talk about.

[gurgen]

Ironically, the Hye culture (and tradition) that you are so eagerly trying to preserve does not allow casual sexual relationship between unmarried hye girls and boys. I see a contradiction here. Maybe such a culture does not have to be preserved after all?

Preserving a culture does not mean it should not alter or be progressive. As we progress in time we must also improve our traditions.

 

It's not the culture prohibiting sexual relationships, it's just silly old conservative traditions, you have them in every country, and they were all thrown overboard, but not along with the whole culture or lineage.

 

I agree we have to go with the ages, but surely that doesn't mean pushing ourselves to extinction and abolishing everything that makes us special?

[vava]

Yes Vava, lets talk about this "cultural preservation" you're refering to and how it's "enough" to simply pass on language and teach kids of mixed marriages Armenian then dubb them as "Hye". So basically by your logic, if I learn everything about feudal Japan, learn to read and write in Japanese, and toss in a bit of its history into my personal knowledge base, I can be Japanese! Wow, I never knew it was that easy to become Japanese or even Armenian for that matter!

 

Sarcasm aside, that wasn’t entirely my point, nevertheless, I think a case can be made that the dwindling or rather, dilution of the Armenian population outside of the ROA can be at least partially attributable to the xenophobic attitudes of the Armenian communities. Not only do Armenians, such as yourself, not accept the children of their kinsmen who inter-marry, but they ostracize those within their community who choose to build their family with an Otar. It’s a strange dichotomy don’t you think? When the loss of ‘every individual’ is so important, to still be pushing people out the door?

 

It always surprises me how we (collectively) can rally around, and celebrate famous half-Armenians like Kasparov, Agassi (and even Cher!) as being Armenian; and then turn around in an instant and refuse to accept the children of Armenians in mixed marriages. They have every right to claim their heritage, after all, it’s part of their genealogy. Why not be ‘inclusive’ as opposed to ‘exclusive’? Our numbers would certainly not diminish at the same ‘critical’ rate, no?

 

 

First off, being anything, whether it's Armenian, Pakistani, Martian, etc, etc, starts at the genetic level, then branches off into phenotipic features, and lastly encompasses a unique mindset and behavioural values which we call "culture".

 

 

I’m not going to speak of phenotypes because that inevitably leads to a racially motivated (and charged) discussion and ends up going nowhere very fast. But with regards to a ‘unique mindset and behavioural values’, I find it rather simplistic to claim that this is a product of genetics. I would think that any commonalities in the behavioural make-up of Diasporan Armenians in, for example, Buenos Aires and Paris would be socially derived. That is to say, the common cultural perceptions are learned within their Diasporan communities. Otherwise the mindset of a born and raised Parisian would differ remarkably from that of an Argentinian, no? As such, I fail to see how such cultural perceptions could not be imparted upon children born to mixed families.

 

The point being this: Armenians in the diaspora have worked very hard to create structures within their newly adopted societies designed to propagate Armenian culture & ideals, and this, in an ‘alien’ environment. Arguably, if culture is a social construct, than there is nothing stopping mixed Armenian children from fully adopting Diasporan Armenian culture.

 

If the sperm and the egg that made up that child were not from Hye parents, that child is not Hye, he is a mix that knows a lot about one half of his genetic make-up, period.

 

Wait a minute – we are talking diaspora here, are we not? One way or another, even if they come from 100% Armenian genes, these children are going to be exposed to the extremely overwhelming influence of their host society. After a few generations, are they still Armenian? If they have been educated & brought up in a ‘foreign’ society, will they not adapt their mindset to resemble that those indigenous to their new home? Are their children then still Armenian?

 

Just please do not idealistically fool yourself into thinking that once the genetic line has been cut off via inter-ethnic marriage that you can still be "hye" through charitable actions and cultural knowledge. Once you're done genetically, you're DONE, that's it, you've cut off Armenianism at it's most basic and essential level, which is genetically.

 

So then what exactly are pure ‘Armenian’ genes?? Is there such a thing? Over the past centuries we have mixed with so many different ethnicities, and yet, we still remain. But are we ‘pure’? I question the credibility of a purely ‘genetic’ argument. Sure – you can’t just become Armenian by will power alone ;p, But being Armenian isn’t JUST in the genes.

 

And as for the whole Sexual Repression Factor bit – I think with a little extrapolation, we adjust our perception/fear of cultural evolution rather than simply behavioural change with respect to sex, we can find a balance: ensure diasporan Armenians retain their identity in future generations, yet at the same time, they take advantage of an opportunity to adapt & succeed within their new communities as we have always done throughout our history.

 

Finally, I’d like to say that I admire your intentions, Vigil, ArmenianPirate, (or whoever you choose to be today). I think that you support ideals that are culturally important, however, in the context of the Armenians in the Diaspora, one must be willing, and able, to adapt to new circumstance, or risk disintegration. We hear the terms ‘cultural preservation’ all too often – whereby ‘preservation’ is akin to putting something in a jar, on a shelf, to gather dust. As good as dead, I suppose. I would prefer to think that cultural identity is more likely a living, constantly evolving entity…. Not only to preserve and cherish, but to experience and partake in it’s growth and development. After all, cultural traditions should be the basis for evolution, and not an impediment of survival.

[vava]

I would also be very curious to see any evidence of 'Armenian genes' that people often talk about.

Me too! (see my post above! )

[TheArmenianPirate]

Sarcasm aside, that wasn’t entirely my point, nevertheless, I think a case can be made that the dwindling or rather, dilution of the Armenian population outside of the ROA can be at least partially attributable to the xenophobic attitudes of the Armenian communities. Not only do Armenians, such as yourself, not accept the children of their kinsmen who inter-marry, but they ostracize those within their community who choose to build their family with an Otar. It’s a strange dichotomy don’t you think? When the loss of ‘every individual’ is so important, to still be pushing people out the door?

 

 

It seems the replies on these boards have the tendency continually make addendums that have not been said. Please do not make the implication that I am some sort of fanatic that persecutes those that have already been mixed into an odar marriage. The children of odar marriages should in fact be accepted and the Armenian side should be emphasized by the Hye parent as much as possible. However, to suggest that the child of an odar/Hye couple is NO different than that of Hye/Hye couple is ridiculous and basically a “quick fix” solution to an ever growing problem. Yes, I agree that odar/hye children should be accepted and nurtured, but the way you actually encourage the odar/hye marriage route as a resolution to Armenian preservation and propagation is not only frighteningly naïve and short sighted, but frankly, it’s insulting when the countless folks that went through hell in the past to maintain Armenians culturally, ethnically, AND GENETICALLY are considered.

 

Yes it is true that NO GROUP of people is completely genetically “pure”, but I doubt that the practice of inter-marriage that you actually seem to ENCOURAGE was something that Hye ancestors did not think of as a solution and instead decided to face certain death instead during all those struggles for lineage survival. No one is “pushing people out the door” Vava jan, they stepped out themselves the day they decided to inter-marry. Now that they are out , their children should be educated about their Armenian half, but ultimately, the next generation will a quarter Armenian, and the next will be 1/8, and the next will be 1/16 my dear. And what are you going to do then, teach that fourth generation 1/16 Hye child 16 different cultural facts, historic backgrounds, and ancestry? That fourth generation child will most likely care only 1/16 as much about that miniscule Armenian part of him/her and should he decide to study “only” half the cultures which make up his genetic lineage then there is a 50% chance that his Armenianism will be dismissed since he’ll only be maintaining 8 out of the 16 “parts” of himself/herself. It’s simple statistics and it does not lie, you get a mix child, it’s inevitable that both his halves will be forgotton down his family tree at some point, most don’t even make it past the second generation.

 

And yet with all this clearly said, you insist that a mix child is just as much Armenian as a Hye/hye child, this is simply not true. The likely hood of a hye/hye child propagating his cultural background is twice as much as a mix, because he only has 1 choice to make, VS 2 for the first generation mix , 4 for the second generation mix, 8 for the third generation mix, 16 for the fourth generation mix, so on and so forth. Do not be so naïve to claim that a mix is “just as good a Hye in quality” as a hye/hye child as far as preservation and propagation are concerned.

 

 

It always surprises me how we (collectively) can rally around, and celebrate famous half-Armenians like Kasparov, Agassi (and even Cher!) as being Armenian; and then turn around in an instant and refuse to accept the children of Armenians in mixed marriages. They have every right to claim their heritage, after all, it’s part of their genealogy. Why not be ‘inclusive’ as opposed to ‘exclusive’? Our numbers would certainly not diminish at the same ‘critical’ rate, no?

 

We celebrate famous people that are part Hye because it’s good to see part of our heritage in the public eye with a “celebrity” like figure. But that person no matter how famous is still PART hye, and because they are part hye, we feel a connection PARTLY with them, but this fact DOES NOT make them Armenian. And to prove my point further, non of the folks mentioned above, being the mix children they are, have propagated their heritage in any manner even closely resembling the level in which a hye/hye child would. When was the last time Agassi won a Wimbledon title and said anything about his Armenianism during a celebration. In fact he likes to avoid the topic all together, he was invited to a Hye gathering I was at and his father showed up embarrassed because Agassi avoided the whole thing. Did Cher mention her Armenianism when she won her academy award or the many other accolades she has received over the years? Last I checked Kasparov doesn’t even willingly admit the fact that he is part Hye. The fact is that the quality of desire for propagating one’s culture becomes less and less important as a child’s lineage mixture increases. That is why the quality of desire for a Hye/Hye child will always be more than that of a mix, and that is why mixes should be avoided if we’re to survive as diaspora. There is no denying this fact, so think again more deeply the next time you encourage inter-marriage and equate a mix child’s ability to propagate our culture with that of a hye/hye child.

 

 

The point being this: Armenians in the diaspora have worked very hard to create structures within their newly adopted societies designed to propagate Armenian culture & ideals, and this, in an ‘alien’ environment. Arguably, if culture is a social construct, than there is nothing stopping mixed Armenian children from fully adopting Diasporan Armenian culture.

 

Yeah nothing is stopping them, well except for that LITTLE issue with a fifth generation mixed child having to choose between his 32 different lineages to propagate. I predict he’ll choose 2 at max and drop the rest, and the likelihood that his Hye heritage will be the one being dropped is roughly 93% with that kind of lineage ratio to deal with. Look, once there is a mixed child, I agree with you, educate him/her about the Hye half as much as possible. But certainly the inter-marriage is not something to be encouraged simply because you are diaspora. Inter-marriage is cultural suicide, even if you don’t care about the genetic implications and aspects of it, EVERY culture that lets itself go and does the inter-marriage route is doomed to not surviving. It just blows me away that you folks are so damn blind to this obvious fact, either that or you’re just jaded with idealistic media nonsense about “one world one mind one culture”. The world is a great place because we are all diverse and unique as different cultures, and inter-marriage certainly is the very anti-thesis of uniqueness.

 

 

Wait a minute – we are talking diaspora here, are we not? One way or another, even if they come from 100% Armenian genes, these children are going to be exposed to the extremely overwhelming influence of their host society. After a few generations, are they still Armenian? If they have been educated & brought up in a ‘foreign’ society, will they not adapt their mindset to resemble that those indigenous to their new home? Are their children then still Armenian?

 

Yes they will adopt to some of the surrounding ways of life, but that doesn’t mean that they cannot hold onto their lineage as well and value it just as much as their immigrant parents did. I’m living proof of this, so do not dispute this fact. If you saw me on the street I’d be as American as baseball, most people can’t tell I’m Hye at first glance, yet here I am on these boards trying to wake the Armenian youth wake up from their slumber and lack of hope. If you do your job as a Hye parent and infuse your child with the desire to retain his culture, lineage, and genetic history, then that child will do it willingly and with a lot of motivation as well as desire. But if you say “yeah don’t sweat it son, marry whoever you like, as long as you’re in love it’s all good, if you have time teach your kids some stuff about Hyes” , then yes your child will completely assimilate into his surroundings and won’t even bother with even teaching that mixed child anything at all, thus propagation is lost. Our genetic history is not 100% pure, no ones’ is. Most of the time, it is during times of war when our women were raped or pillaged, that our genetic aspects were manipulated, yet still we persevered as much as possible. Now that we are not under that strain, we should make even a bigger effort to retain our historic roots and lineage by keep marriages within Hyes, not odars.

 

I find that most people that have this completely laid back attitude about integrating with odars being completely alright are those folks that don’t want to put in the extra effort of finding a hye lover. Yet they don’t want to lose face either in their community so they create a nice elaborate intellectual reason for assimilation being okay just to save some face for being a lazy coward, or they use the fact that our conservative community doesn’t allow for open sexual relationships. Yes it is true that we have this conservative problem, but jumping in bed with an odar isn’t the the fix for it, instead we should be sacking up with each other and if our old fashioned parents say otherwise we should educate them or if nothing else works, tell them to give it rest. If you can care about an odar lover enough to lose your whole lineage completely at the roots then you certainly can also care about a hye lover enough to go against conservative social stigmas. Hiding behind a veil of "intellectuality" is just a pathetic excuse for not wanting to put in effort.

 

The power of youth is invincible, ALL OF YOU need to realize this fact. We can shape our culture in any way we want, regardless of how much pressure our parents put on us, their time is coming to an end, ours has just begun. We can either say “*** it” and take the inter-marriage route and dwindle ourselves as a people, or we can fix the social issues of sexuality, parskahye/hyeastantzi/lipanahye stereotyping and segregation, as well as any other social issues that bother us as youth and thrive. I should be able to have an open sexual relationship with my beautiful hye girlfriend and she should not have to worry about it being “safe” socially and thus consider an odar. To accomplish this freedom we have to do it together within our social circles and take a chance.

 

Finally, I’d like to say that I admire your intentions, Vigil, ArmenianPirate

 

Thank you, Vigil and I are not the same person .

 

 

Ironically, the Hye culture (and tradition) that you are so eagerly trying to preserve does not allow casual sexual relationship between unmarried hye girls and boys. I see a contradiction here. Maybe such a culture does not have to be preserved after all?

 

I clearly stated that this was in fact a big problem for us Hyes. Hye girls and guys want to get laid with each other bud, believe me! Our men are as handsome as they come and our women, one word, WOW! Simply gorgeous! But parental generations put pressure on the girls to be “makur” and the boys to look for “makur”. The idea of “makur” is ridiculous, sex is a natural discourse of any healthy human being, male or female. As such, we as youth, should be allowed to freely experiment with each other sexually without fear of persecution. As a male in my 20s, I shouldn’t have to convince a hye girl that it’s safe for her to acknowledge the fact that she wants sex from me or that I am socially “safe” to have sex with. I should be able to just project that trust naturally to her and she should not have to worry about me judging her or her community judging her, or her parents judging me for having a sexual relationship with their daughter. These are very prevalent problems that must be addressed, and the way to address them is to educate your parents, go out there and show a hye girl a good time as a hye guy or vice versa, and if parents or some other old fashioned fanatic starts whining, tell them how wrong they are and move on. Like I said before, WE as youth must instigate change, the age of our parents is over, we need to stick together, hang in our hye circles, and do what young folks do all over the world, have wild animalistic sex without reprieve!

 

On a more important note, I don't share your extreme view. I don't see why you don't want to let Sev-mard alone - he has no fault here. The guy has fallen in love with a girl, and what a misfortune it is - the girl happens to be an Armenian.

Come on now, its more than impolite already to focus on one guy's relationship. It's not like he is trying to marry all Armenian women (in which case I would start worrying ) and thus cut our lineage. Besides, if there is any blame at all it's not the odars that should be blamed but hyes that are not conscious enough of their heritage. I know you are talking about that also but Sev-mard and any odars should be absolutely left out of such discussions. Blaming, on the other hand, is useless. No one will change their ways of life because somebody is blaming him/her. It's time to realize that. The most you can do is encourage, inspire in other ways.

 

 

My views are not as extreme as you claim them to be Sasun. I’m simply being blunt about how things are and where they can lead to if we do not put in more effort as individuals. I would rather be in a concerned state of awareness such as I am here today then be “happy go lucky” without a clue as to how dangerous it is to be completely passive about one’s culture, lineage, and ethnicity. Also, I’m not here to be polite or politically correct, I’m here to talk about important issues and how to solve them without any social filters.

 

Sev-Mard’s situation served as a great example of the points I was making so I used it without reservation, if I must, I’ll do it again. Also, I certainly was not blaming odars for anything. I don’t where you got that from. I was trying to make him understand why it is that I do not like inter-marriage or the insistence of an odar on my acceptance of inter-marriage simply because an odar feels he will “treat her well”. I can treat her well too, in fact, I can treat a lot of odar girls VERY well on a daily basis. But that doesn’t give me any right to expect people of another culture that is already RARE to completely lay down and say enthusiastically “Hi! Welcome to the neighborhood, even though there are very few of us left and now even less left because of your recent inter-marriage, I’ll put on a happy face and greet you with a smile because that is the ‘nice’ thing to do”. For every Hye guy that inter-marries there is Hye girl that potentially will not marry him and produce kids that would propagate my culture, for every hye girl that inter-marries there is hye guy that won’t propose to her and produce kids, on a whole this IS bad for hye culture, and anything bad for hye culture, as a hye, it is my responsibility to help prevent if I can. Perhaps you shouldn’t be so concerned with criticizing those that decide to speak up about issues that cripple, marginalize, and destroy us as a people as well as a culture, but instead take some action and responsibility to help cure our problems as a people.

 

Have a restful Sunday everyone.

[Boghos]

First of all, good bye Sev Mard and good luck.

 

Armenian Pirate´s stand is similar to some of my deceased´s grandfather friends and are perfectly understandable were we in the 1950´s or earlier. Right after the Genocide Armenians scattered around were concerned with physical survival and the preservation of a sense of community.

 

Armenian xenophobia or whatever you may choose to call it has existed from time immemorial, undergoing cycles of more or less miscigenation according to historical circumstances, so for example in early history when rape was a prevalent method of rewarding troops, the gene pool from Hayk started to get mixed up. Fast forwarding to this century we see places where there is very little mixed marriage, such as Syria and less so Iran, but in most oher places this is a non-issue, Armenians in the diaspora are condemned to disappear, as the Hungarians and Polish Armenians have, and as the French Armenians, one of the largest communities in the diaspora are moving very rapidly towards.

 

Is that bad ? Well, it is as bad as the sun rising and setting everyday, it is inevitable. Armenians in the diaspora will have little bearing as to whether Armenians continue to exist on the face of the earth, for that one has to move to a country called the Republic of Armenia, as many have done. We can naturally try to help Armenia in many different ways, and we can also as we have done create a number of institutions that congregate Armenians in different ways. But that doesn´t even make a small dent in the inevitable assimilation that in five or six generations will have swept most.

 

We should not confuse our current existence as "Armenians" in the diaspora, a relatively recent phenomenon, at least in the dimension that it exists, to the fairy tale of maintaining Armenianess outside the lands of Armenia proper. Some people feel threatened or saddened by these thoughts, which I would rather call reality. But the choices are very clearly in front of us and we can make them based on economic, religious, national, sexual or whatever interest.

 

Last but not least I will not throw myself into a discussion of Monte´s role in Karabagh´s defense, suffices to say that every people needs a martyr and that Armenians from Armenia were by far the relevant actors in that war. But why not think of Kirk Kerkorian, who doesn´t speak a single word of Armenian (ok maybe he knows parev) and who hasn´t done a single thing to make sure that his kids remain Armenian, is he a traitor ?

Edited March 28, 2004 by Boghos

[ak8081]

I think it is amazing that most people attack Armenian Pirate's views when it is exactly that sort of thinking that will ensure that our culture carries on.

 

Boghos, when you claim that the Armenians in the diaspora will inevitably disappear -- how much does that say for the survival of Armenia? Armenian citizens are leaving Armenia by the thousands every year. With the low birth rate, and the very understandable desire for many people to leave and find a better life elsewhere, Armenians are condemned to disappear within a few short centuries -- max.

 

As the new generation, the responsibility to carry on our ancient culture lies in our hands. Embrace that responsibility.

[Boghos]

I am an optimist, I think Armenia will thrive. The Republic is still very young and things have looked rather grimmy in the past but have been improving noticeably even if "not enough". Armenians have a healthy tendency to self-deprecation but that sometimes verges on excessive pessimism and sometimes even a sort of melancholical somewhat destructive outlook. That doesn´t mean that Armenians will exist two, three or four centuries down the line, but it is perhaps an indication that excessive pessimism as to the continued existence of Armenians on earth is just that and is likely to be wrong in light of our historical trackrecord.

 

If Armenians disappear from the face of the earth, which I most adamantly believe will simply not happen, what would be the problem ?

Edited March 28, 2004 by Boghos

[koko]

How are you going to adress the problem when halv of the kurdish population in Western armenia( wich they call kurdistan) who have Armenian ancestors, and who now are writing books about the ANCIENT CULTURE OF KURDISTAN AND THE KURDS( for example), to aknowleadge their armenian ancestry.

 

Millons of armenians, millons of turks, are rewriting history books about the armenian culture, and has turned it into something new, THE TURKS and the KURDS.

 

Armenians assimiliate and dissapeare in Turkey, because we are to occkupied with discussing who an armenian girl should marry or not!

 

I think we should concentrate more on this issue, and as well as educate and bring up the armenians of today who calls themselves ARMENIAN, and some of them who in my eyes doesn't at all have any resembles of the armenian wich we are discussing, and doesnt at all posess any of those good qualities.

Edited March 28, 2004 by koko

[Harut]

I think it is amazing that most people attack Armenian Pirate's views when it is exactly that sort of thinking that will ensure that our culture carries on.

 

Boghos, when you claim that the Armenians in the diaspora will inevitably disappear -- how much does that say for the survival of Armenia? Armenian citizens are leaving Armenia by the thousands every year. With the low birth rate, and the very understandable desire for many people to leave and find a better life elsewhere, Armenians are condemned to disappear within a few short centuries -- max.

 

As the new generation, the responsibility to carry on our ancient culture lies in our hands. Embrace that responsibility.

this is ironic... it is ok to run away from the burdens of keeping the infant country alive, but it's not ok to run away from the burdens of keeping a culture, which we've run away in the first place, alive.

 

if i've run away from armenia (or refuse to go and live there) because i put my economic prosperity, my personal life above my country and not be condemned for it, then why should i be condemned for not caring about the culture of that country?

[TheArmenianPirate]

Armenian Pirate´s stand is similar to some of my deceased´s grandfather friends and are perfectly understandable were we in the 1950´s or earlier. Right after the Genocide Armenians scattered around were concerned with physical survival and the preservation of a sense of community.

 

The approach of making what I say sound like some sort of “outdated” notion of the past and that now, as “modernized intellectual” Armenians, we should be well “above” or “beyond” the idea of continual hye/hye marriage is another crutch excuse, nothing more, do not try and pass it off as otherwise. Perhaps you say this NOT so much for the sheer fact that it is somehow “inevitable” but merely because you’ve decided that it is not worth your time or effort to try and actually continue with any sort of resiliency toward finding a hye lover. After all, in the land of the free and the home of brave, there are lots of tempting “bangin” odars to choose from. You make it sound like I’m suggesting you move a mountain for me with your bare hands. All of what I say requires so very little effort to accomplish and maintain on a day to day basis that it is laughable how much of a big deal some of you folks make it out to be just so that you can have an excuse for behaving jaded. My ideas are not fanatically “xenophobic” my friend, they are indeed very simple, practical, and very much easy to accomplish. I’ve been doing it all my life and I promise I’m able to do it and still be every bit as “American” as you are, if not more so. I have odar friends and I run in odar circles as well as Hye circles, and yet I’m not “inevitably” lost in their “odarness”; I still remember who I am, where I come from, where my lineage is from, and yes with my dying breath I would in fact die to defend that. The reason being is that without some sort of idenity that stems from my cultural preservation, I’m nothing, I’m just a bag of tissue among 5.5 some odd billion of other “human beings”. I like being unique and my culture, lineage, and heritage is the source of that uniqueness, thus I’m not about to foolishly say that the loss of that uniqueness is an “inevitability” that cannot be prevented simply because I’m not sitting in Yerevan and I’m here in the U.S.

 

Armenians in the diaspora are condemned to disappear, as the Hungarians and Polish Armenians have, and as the French Armenians, one of the largest communities in the diaspora are moving very rapidly towards.

 

Perhaps they have disappeared, but to chalk that off to a factor of “inevitability” is naïve at best. If I stress enough that a lie is the truth, then it will eventually become the truth. Likewise, if “proud” and “resilient” Hyes like you continually spew out this staccato of how “we’re doomed, we’ll never make it, we should just give in it’s unavoidable, etc, etc” then yes, people will in fact start believing that it is “inevitable”, even though it certainly is not inevitable. Maybe in Poland and Hungary there were a lot of preachers like you Boghos jan that continually pushed for “inevitability” and eventually got it. Again, I find it simply amazing how much effort some folks are willing to make just to say things are in a state of “loss cause “ and that we should just assimilate via inter-marriage just because they themselves want an excuse to give in as individuals and dabble in odars. Ironically the effort of actually finding Hye lovers and raising Hye families as diaspora dwarfs in comparison to the effort folks make to convince others of “inevitability”, so once again, I will have to call bullshit on "inevitability".

 

 

Armenians in the diaspora will have little bearing as to whether Armenians continue to exist on the face of the earth, for that one has to move to a country called the Republic of Armenia, as many have done. We can naturally try to help Armenia in many different ways, and we can also as we have done create a number of institutions that congregate Armenians in different ways. But that doesn´t even make a small dent in the inevitable assimilation that in five or six generations will have swept most.

 

Half the Armenian population on the face of the globe is diaspora and you’re seriously telling me that the diaspora have no bearing on the survival of Armenian culture? Are you living on the same planet as I am Bhogos jan? I don’t have to physically move to Armenia in order to have an effective way of helping my culture proliferate. You’re saying that “inevitably” inter-marrying but still helping Armenia in some way is a way to still aid our culture, but the much more simpler act of marrying a hye girl and having children with her is not just as good if not better as well as effectual for a “useless” diasporan to peform? Your logic is definitely flawed, you insinuate my ideas are unrealistic but it seems that they are in fact very realistic and your’s are perhaps the extreme ones with your completely culturally morbid outlook toward things. You want “Armenian congregation”? Then next time put your penis in a Hye girl instead of an odar, that will get you congregation really quickly, in fact it is the baseline standard of forming a Hye congregation and it is not as “inevitably” impossible as you claim it to be. If you do this I guarantee that in 5 or 6 generations you lineage will be very healthy and strong, in fact in 50 or 60 generations it still will be healthy and strong. And in the year 4000 an Armenian can introspectively say we still are one of the greatest cultures on the face of the earth instead of a historic scholar reading about us in a book next to the Babylonians or other extinct cultures.

 

 

We should not confuse our current existence as "Armenians" in the diaspora, a relatively recent phenomenon, at least in the dimension that it exists, to the fairy tale of maintaining Armenianess outside the lands of Armenia proper. Some people feel threatened or saddened by these thoughts, which I would rather call reality. But the choices are very clearly in front of us and we can make them based on economic, religious, national, sexual or whatever interest.

 

There is nothing fairy tale like about maintaining Armenianism outside of Armenia. Like I said before, don’t insinuate that I’ve just asked you to move a mountain for me with your jaded intellectual bravado. Instead make the simple effort of marrying a beautiful Hye girl and pass that idea onto your kids and believe me we’ll be just fine as Armenians as far as survival is concerned. I’m not saddened by any thoughts of “inevitable” diasporan cultural death because it has not happened yet, I know in fact it is not inevitable, and that surviving as a culture is in fact a very sound and relatively easy idea to accomplish, not the “fairy tale” you claim it to be. And yes I do agree with you on the choices being in front of us, so instead of continually pushing for what is supposedly and falsely “inevitable”, make the right choice of marrying a Hye girl, raising a hye family the way your parents raised you and your siblings, and in doing so proliferating or our culture Boghos jan.

 

 

Last but not least I will not throw myself into a discussion of Monte´s role in Karabagh´s defense, suffices to say that every people needs a martyr and that Armenians from Armenia were by far the relevant actors in that war. But why not think of Kirk Kerkorian, who doesn´t speak a single word of Armenian (ok maybe he knows parev) and who hasn’t done a single thing to make sure that his kids remain Armenian, is he a traitor?

 

Of course you won’t throw yourself into a discussion about Monte, anyone saying the things that you’re trying to promote won’t involve Monte either. The reason being is because Monte was a living, breathing, real life rebuttal and irrefutable evidence that one Hye diasporan can and DOES make a difference with his/her effort in our cultural effort. Whatever made a kid in his early 20s from Fresno that has never left its soils give up a full ride to Oxford and give everything up to promote his self-identity must have something do to with the FACT that things are not "inevitable" or "a lost cause". If some diasporans had even 1% of the desire that Monte had, I wouldn't have to be here talking about the ridiculous nature of the notions of "letting go", "asimilating", "giving up to inevitability", "inter-marrying, it's okay we're diaspora and not in Yerevan", or any of the other cowardly excuses made by folks that want to feel good about their lack of effort.

 

And every people DO NOT crave a martyr for just the sake of having one, that's the media's false machinations talking through you. Martyrs exist because a group of people, no matter how bad their plight, are not recognized with mere words about the truth alone on this supposedly "modern political humane world stage". Those in political power screw over those that are not then hide behind politics so then when all other possibilities are exhausted for recognition of a certain issue, the only choice left for those that are oppressed is to strap a bomb to your chest and hope that the shock factor of that act will bring recognition to your cause. As a Hye I feel violated deeply by the fact that 1.5 million of my kinsmen have brutally been slain yet there is not a whisper about it's recognition by this self righteous media machine known as the United States. But 200 people die in Haiti over a political dispute and the U.S sends over 30,000 marines as a "humanitarian" effort. Again, The Armenian Pirate will call bullshit.

 

Every time someone like you says the things you say it just sounds like a cop-out simply because men like Monte existed and by existing they turn all this nonsense about diasporan ineffectualness, lack of effort, and the “inevitability” of cultural loss completely into the joke that it is. I never said someone that refuses to show effort is a traitor, someone that refuses to show effort or believes in an inevitability of cultural effort is a fool, not a traitor. Nothing is “inevitable”, things only become inevitable when an individual feels by believing in inevitability he can appease his own moral consciousness about giving up on a struggle that was important to him and his people. It’s either living with the guilt that you took the cop-out approach via a voluntary choice of refusing to help sustain your heritage OR you can create some intellectual argument for that choice in order to help you deal with your own inner guilt. The reason you feel this guilt is because you know most of the ideals that your parent struggled to keep alive are now gone with the inter-marriage you’ve chosen. Every day you (with “you”, I’m not referring to you specifically Boghos jan) wake up and you look at your family and you know you gave up, your child can’t even say a descent full sentence to you in Armenian because you opted for that hot blonde instead of the Hye girl. And the one certainty that exists in that situation is that EVEN if your mixed child is taught to be as Hye as Hye can be, deep down you know that his child and each consecutive mixed generation after that will care even less because naturally a smaller and smaller part of them is in fact Hye. And THAT my friend is the only inevitability that can truly be attested to.

 

As far as Kirk Kerkorian is concerned, I do think of him, and I pity him. Because that man came to this country in the early 1900s and built a roughly 6 billion dollar empire using old cargo planes but the VERY simple act of keeping his lineage he allowed to slip through his fingers. Several times he forged odar families and they ended up broken. Now in the twilight of his life, with death knocking on his door, he tries desperately to somehow hold onto his identity which he knows will die with him because his kids are mixed. He tries desperately to leave behind a legacy for his people with quarter billion dollar gifts to our homeland yet even with all that money he cannot attain the simple legacy of leaving behind a Hye son or daughter to continue on his hye lineage, which is the greatest legacy any of us can hope to leave on this earth when the reaper comes knocking. What good will the roads that he is funding to build be when there exist no people with a distinct Armenian heritage and lineage to walk upon them? And when he passes on, all that he has built will be controlled by a 30 something that is not even his own son or daughter. Just look at the man’s situation, he so desperately feels he has made the mistake of the odar route that the air to his throne is a Hye not related to him. He tries to make up for his error in the odar route by appointing a Hye as his successor and not having it be his mix children, because he doesn’t want his 80 year empire to fall under the control of odars. But the board will strip his Hye protégé of his status after Kirk’s death the first chance they get by using Kirk’s mix children as puppets to wrangle control from the Hye protégé. And when this happens, the quarter billion that we did get from time to time for Armenia will be gone as well. As you can see, the simple choice of odar marriage did in fact have consequences in the long run and it’s not in fact “the way to go”, it’s identity suicide at best and ultimately prevents a Hye man or woman from leaving behind a Hye child as his or her legacy to perpetuate our lineage in a descent and sustainable manner instead of a progressively degenerate manner with each new mix generation. And while it’s tempting to say that what I’ve just described is “exaggerated” or “paranoia”, you wait, watch, and see bud; the board is just waiting for Kirk to pass on and they will use his mixed child to unseat the Hye protégé that’s helping him run things right now. So no, Kirk is not a traitor, he is in fact a fool, all he has worked for will ultimately belong to someone that is NOT of his lineage, people, culture, or heritage, and with that any interest in using those vast finances for helping Armenia will be gone. You can chalk that up to more ludicrous talk of not showing effort in marrying another Hye, so think twice before you continue to promote your views about the “inevitability” of globalized Armenians and inter-marriage being "inevitable". Instead find a wonderful Hye girl, marry her, and make love to her like a madman without being judgemental about her not being "a virgin" or "makur" so that she won't have to look toward an odar due to sexual need, community pressure, or repression.

 

-The Armenian Pirate

Edited March 28, 2004 by TheArmenianPirate

[Boghos]

Hello Armenian Pirate,

 

I do believe that Armenians outside the diaspora will disappear, it is just a matter of time. Common sense and history are on my side. That doesn´t mean that one cannot act in different ways trying to delay the inevitable, after all this is not a scientific experiment that can be controlled, measured, replicated. Armenian schools exist and are very important and strong in many places mostly because there are newcomers that have similar needs as the survivors of the AG.

 

The important issue at hand is if there is really an Armenian way of living, an Armenian culture when it comes to existence in the diaspora. More often than not our so-called nationalists are often maladjusted in the society they chose to live in and hence the appeal to some sort of saintly or superior way of life, which just happens to be called "Armenian".

 

Most Armenians that are serious about Armenia do not bother with this whole discussion about who is or who isn´t Armenian or what one should do or not do to be Armenian. They just live their lives, travel to Armenia, read books from and about Armenia, forums and so on. More often than not people rally behind a flag of an apparently beautiful cause but do not even bother to take out the trash of their own houses...

[Arpa]

As always I like Boghos' optimism which is not based on nothing. Look at our history. How many people came and went in the course of time?

As to ak8081 fear of disappearing in a short century.

Did anybody see the flight of HyperX the vehicle that flies at 5000 MPH?

The world is moving at such a pace that what took centuries before is happening in days, OK decades. Look what happened to Armenia in the last decade. Who knows what will happen in another 10 years. The way things are moving world geography may be radically different soon. We may all be speaking Earthese as opposed to Martian or Alpha Centaurese and Yerevan may be the capital of the COUNTRY/STATE known as Earth.

Edited March 28, 2004 by Arpa

[vava]

Most Armenians that are serious about Armenia do not bother with this whole discussion about who is or who isn´t Armenian or what one should do or not do to be Armenian. They just live their lives, travel to Armenia, read books from and about Armenia, forums and so on. More often than not people rally behind a flag of an apparently beautiful cause but do not even bother to take out the trash of their own houses...

Well said, Boghos. Nice to see you around.

 

(and sorry, no time today for in depth replies.)

[TheArmenianPirate]

I do believe that Armenians outside the diaspora will disappear, it is just a matter of time. Common sense and history are on my side.

 

How you believe history is on your side is not very apparent from what you have said so far and what history has shown. We have survived this long as diaspora due to the fact that people have adapted to the ideas I’ve outlined, and only recently when people have begun to let go of those ideas has our situation gotten somewhat worse with respect to preservation. So don’t make any hollow claims of history being on your side, it clearly is not, in fact it shows the exact opposite. If 1000 years ago people adapted your “inevitability” mentality, there would be no diaspora today or even any culture known as “Armenian”.

And the reference to common sense being on your side and not mine is ridiculous at best. Everything I’ve said is perfectly rational and not the very least extreme, you’re just so far gone that what was once deemed normal and basic ethnic responsibility is now “irrationality” to you. Since you’ve started replying the crux of your debate has been “it’s inevitable”, you might as well not even bother with the two paragraphs of redundant banter you toss my way, just write “ahh *** it” and be done with it, because frankly, I think you’re just arguing for the sake of arguing at this point. Your guilt coupled with your personal pride in admitting the reality of the situation has blinded you. You’re far too eager at this point to jump in the sack with an odar for me to change your mind it seems, and if that’s the case, so be it. You go ahead and follow the road that is supposedly “inevitable” and I’ll walk the road less traveled as I always have. When you’re on your death bed and your finances, big house, fast cars, and everything else that is tangible does not matter anymore with your cultural legacy being the only exception, you’ll realize that hindsight is 20/20, and by then it’s always too late.

 

 

The important issue at hand is if there is really an Armenian way of living, an Armenian culture when it comes to existence in the diaspora. More often than not our so-called nationalists are often maladjusted in the society they chose to live in and hence the appeal to some sort of saintly or superior way of life, which just happens to be called "Armenian".

 

There certainly is an Armenian way of living, and before you were old enough to be an "intellectual" and think otherwise Boghos jan, you were living it. And a good portion of your current values are derived from it and your mentality is as well to a certain extend derived from it, whether you’d like to admit it or not. Diasporans have been living the Armenian way for at least 2000 years, the proof is irrefutable, where as your lack of proof for the converse is completely evident. I’m no nationalist, like I said before, I’m as American as they come but I don’t feel that I cannot be as Armenian as they come as well and do everything in my power to preserve that lineage, and that begin at the basic idea of not inter-marrying then branches off from that. And nationalists are not maladjusted, unless you actually have irrefutable proof or know a good number of nationalists personally, don’t make empty accusations of other people. Especially those that bust their ass daily and give up so much so that we can retain our ethnic lineage, it's downright insulting the way you critique them when you're nowhere near their level of dedication. Nearly every hye nationalists, and I have met 3 in person, could pass off far better than you ever could as “American”, but they just care about their personal identity on such a intimate level and with such sincerity that they dedicate themselves completely to their cultural identity and it’s survival, even though they have much bigger opportunities they could reach for as "Americans". They are not trying to be saints, and like I said before, caring enough about one’s own identity to not resort to inter-marriage is not an irrational attempt to move some grandiose social mountain, or as you so hastily put it, it’s not an attempt to be “a saint”, it’s a very normal baseline acceptance of the responsibility of continuing one’s identity and lineage, nothing more nothing less.

 

 

Most Armenians that are serious about Armenia do not bother with this whole discussion about who is or who isn´t Armenian or what one should do or not do to be Armenian.

 

Yes they do, I don’t see how you can be serious about Armenia and not think about these very substantial social issues, or about who is Armenian and who is not, and what should or should not be done to keep the Armenian lineage alive. If you don’t do any of these things, then you’re jaded my friend, accept it. What serious Hyes DON’T do, is promote a hopeless “inevitable” outlook the way you and a couple of other folks have been doing. Like I said, you’re just too far gone. And if you truly are such a big proponent of the “inevitability” factor, what are you doing on these boards anyway? It is after, a waste of your time to even attempt any discourse relating to Armenianism, since it’s all going to shit anyway.

 

 

More often than not people rally behind a flag of an apparently beautiful cause but do not even bother to take out the trash of their own houses..

 

Or more importantly, some people jump on the “inevitability” bandwagon to quell their own inner guilt for being too far gone and jaded while using the notion of “inevitability” as a veil to hide behind instead of taking up responsibility for lineage propagation. I agree.

 

 

Some call you an optimist, they obviously have a misconception of what optimism is. I can’t even call your mentality pessimistic, it’s beyond like, it’s sloth like, an inevitable degenerative decay, a pity.

 

This discussion is spent, you’ve made up you’re mind and I’ve made up mine. 1500 registered users and we’ve got a dozen or so people speaking up on this, wake the *** up folks.

[Boghos]

I am glad that you have met at least 3 nationalist Armenians. You also have won the debate. Thank God there are Armenians like you or else what would be of our people.

 

Maybe you should post the address of your Armenian-only compound. I knew of Aryan Nations but had never heard of Armenian Nation. How does it work there ? What kind of test do you administer to see if someone is really Armenian ?

Edited March 29, 2004 by Boghos

[koko]

I am glad that you have met at least 3 nationalist Armenians. You also have won the debate. Thank God there are Armenians like you or else what would be of our people.

 

I would like to answear that with,

 

Yes, our people will dissapear: If Hayastantsis continue to leave Armenia,

soon we will have no country left that we call our homeland.

Edited March 29, 2004 by koko

[hyebruin]

I would like to answear that with,

 

Yes, our people will dissapear: If Hayastantsis continue to leave Armenia,

soon we will have no country left that we call our homeland.

 

that's not fair to single out hayastantzis!! they too come here for the same reasons we all do! in pursuit of the american dream, to make better lives for themselves and their children! that statement is as unfair and as false as saying that the only "true" armenians are those born and raised in armenia!

 

i say we get rid of the greed thirsty hayastantzi politicians and put people in place who are true hayrenasers! then our country and our culture might have a chance at survival..but sadly i don't really see many in power caring about anything more than their own pockets!

 

history tore us apart and spread us all over the world, let's not perpetuate the pain....

[koko]

I am sorry but my intention was not to attack any of you.

There is another side of the story, armenians from armenia have a difficult time because the living conditions are not very well in armenia as we all are aware of.

 

But imagine this if halv the population in other countries, who are in just as bad state as armenia , would leave , who will be left in that country and who will eventually run that country ? I know that many has left armenia.

 

I only know that some of those people who leave, doesnt really have a good reason.

To compare it, Not a better reason than a refugee from iraq anyway!

 

My parents both work in the emigration organization here, they translate from armenian to swedish for armenians who seek from armenia.

 

We are discussing here to percerve our armenianess. And these people come and fake suicides, and take medicins and put their own lives as well as their familiy in danger just because they want to stay here in sweden.

Edited March 29, 2004 by koko

[Sasun]

I think the choice is simple: if being Armenian is good then people will try to be Armenian, and if they are already Armenian then they will stay Armenian.

Instead of a heated debate, one should point out: why being Armenian and preserving Armenianness is good.

 

As for me personally, being Armenian is good only because I am Armenian. That's a subjective way of evaluation. If you look objectively, there is nothing extraordinary about us, some things are unique and nice, some other things are terrible, overall we are nothing special. If I was not Armenian I would hardly want to be one as I am sure being anything else is as good as being Armenian. Am I proud to be Armenian? Yes, I am. But I think I would also be proud to be Malaysian if I was a Malaysian. Surely there are good things about Malaysians to be proud of, not worse than things about Armenians. What about mixes? well, mixes also have names and unique identities. Even if there is nothing unique there surely is in their minds and imaginations. As an Armenian I know very well how to imagine and believe in things to be proud of that are not real or are exaggerated.

 

As for Armenians going out and mixing driven by sexual reasons, sex has very little to do with it. Sexual tabu is only one among a multitude of assimilation forces acting upon us. There is no counterforce to resist the forces of assimilation. Perceiving yourself as unique and good might inspire one to become strong and resist the assimilation and maintain the identity, but what if you yourself don't think that you are unique and good as Armenian?

There are negative aspects in our Armenian identity that do not encourage us as individuals to be associated with other representatives of our identity. Armenian Pirate, it is so easy to say go have sex with Hyes and our nation will survive. We are not cattle to be bread like that, you sound like a central planner

 

....

 

I don't mean to post a long post: my main point is, if we want to preserve our Armenian identity we should first and foremost improve that identity. As it stands now, our identity is not worth preserving. I don't like to say this, but I don't like to have illusions either. We are not good enough to compete with many other identities, we must improve ourselves. Once we manage to improve and purify Armenianness it won't take much effort to convince people that being Armenian is good.

How to be better Armenians? That is very simple - we just have to be better HUMAN BEINGS