Sasun Posted January 18, 2004 Report Share Posted January 18, 2004 Same goes for guys (like Sasun) - they should have a choice - if they wish to be effiminate...where dresses or what not...its OK Sasun...we would hold nothing against you for any of this really... Oh how nice of you, but no thanks, I will give up my such rights for you. Don't worry about my rights, I wouldn't trust you for a second with my rights. Instead, if you have a drop of integrity in your essence go ahead and back up your stupid charges against me. Show some evidence, don't avoid like a coward... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 18, 2004 Report Share Posted January 18, 2004 Oh how nice of you, but no thanks, I will give up my such rights for you. Don't worry about my rights, I wouldn't trust you for a second with my rights. Instead, if you have a drop of integrity in your essence go ahead and back up your stupid charges against me. Show some evidence, don't avoid like a coward... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 18, 2004 Report Share Posted January 18, 2004 i mean, i know i have been called "less intelligent" or "stupid", but this thread is a waste of time, or I guess a place for ranting on what is others' business/personal lives... Oh, and on the race issue: should we have quotas for whites in olympic sports, especially track and basketball ? just a general comment -- i really don't understand why it's considered racist when someone says he/she is proud to be White, and on the other hand, it's considered OK for a black person or a woman to say that they are proud to be black or women... i don't get it.. it seems to me that Whites are being victimised here... i'm trying to be as objective as I can.. I'm not a White supremacist or anything, just making an observation or two.. and that affirmative action business is a load of BS IMO, and hypocritical. tell me how you can fight racism/sexism through racism/sexism (or wait, being anti-White is not considered racism, is it? or being anti-male is not considered sexist, is it? ).. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 18, 2004 Report Share Posted January 18, 2004 Dan - please go away! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 18, 2004 Report Share Posted January 18, 2004 Dan - please go away! THOTH, I think you should chill... I mean.. I understand if you're in a bad mood or something, and I respect that, but... I wasn't really making a point against you.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boghos Posted January 18, 2004 Report Share Posted January 18, 2004 (edited) I've read Native Son, the Invisible Man , Black Boy, and Go tell it on the Mountain...until you've read these books - then we can talk.... And just how can we educate all these po Black folk huh? Do you have any concept of the cycle of poverty and discrimination? No...you don't..and this is the problem...those like you (and Mouse...though even this is giving him more credit then he deserves) have no clue to what they are talking about. You think you are educated...well that is a laugh...education - as you have had...is not education in life, in the world...I studied with, spoken with, and protested with the lutentents of Medgar Evers, the MItchells and Murphys of Baltimore, others in the civil rights, Indain rights and womens rights movements....its so very easy to ignore and push aside these and other nasty iossues in our world (hunger, disease...such as Aids, polution and environmental disaster..)...and nice to feel smug about being a have and making fun of the have nots....etc ...and you people talk of heaven.... It takes time. If you rush it the results will be worse. Many blacks agree with this position. Marching, shouting, screaming, sloganeering and so on. I am not going to make this a competition for leftwing credentials. You would lose. For me it is more a reflection of my political impetus in face of what I believed was not fair, I later understood that this is not an issue of fairness but rather of how to address these questions in a sound manner. I grew up. I started working. You forget that I live and grew up in a somewhat poor country. Did you know that my father was jailed for his politics in the 70s, and that when he left jail he went right to what he was doing before (it is not easy to quiet some Armenians) ? That he set up clinics in poor areas ? That one doesn´t make that much money being a doctor in Brazil and in many other countries ? But what do you know about work anyway ? You have never really worked, or have you ? Isn´t it you who tries to show off your wines, your love for cars and speed, your "high" style ? I realized that there is so much opportunism and deceit, so many empty arguments in the "popular movements". Many "militants" believe that they are the reincarnation of the Messias, that they came to save the world. If they just focused in cleaning up their own backyard, I guarantee you, the world would be a much better place. You go around trying to teach everybody the right way to think and exist, your self contained politically correct make believe boring world. That is incredibly arrogant and authoritarian. I try to bring facts and you just come back with ad hominem: "those like you". That is an old tactic, show yourself "morally superior", a "man from the masses" (that´s a good one), a "street smart politically educated concerned individual", I have seen this before and more. Much more. AIDS for example should not be a political issue. Did you know that they gay community in SF in the beginning of the epidemics strongly opposed closing down the "saunas" even though it was widely known that it was a major source of contamination ? They did that in the name of political correctness. How many unsuspecting young people died because of that ? Do you know which country has one of the best AIDS programs in the world ? Brazil. Do you have any idea how it came about ? Which people were involved ? Can´t you see that in America more than in any other country there is too much hysteria around every single subject ? That focusing on certain issues just diverts the attention from what is really needed ? Relax Winston. You are starting to sound increasingly like hagarag. Edited January 18, 2004 by Boghos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted January 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2004 It takes time. If you rush it the results will be worse. Many blacks agree with this position. ------------- How dare you criticize the god of wisdom. He will only return with more personal attacks. But, you eloquently said what I could not. Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 18, 2004 Report Share Posted January 18, 2004 AIDS for example should not be a political issue. Did you know that they gay community in SF in the beginning of the epidemics strongly opposed closing down the "saunas" even though it was widely known that it was a major source of contamination ? They did that in the name of political correctness. How many unsuspecting young people died because of that ? Do you know which country has one of the best AIDS programs in the world ? Brazil. Do you have any idea how it came about ? Which people were involved ? Can´t you see that in America more than in any other country there is too much hysteria around every single subject ? That focusing on certain issues just diverts the attention from what is really needed ? blame the liberals for it. as much as i try to like them and their agenda, i am beginning to find them increasingly dumb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 18, 2004 Report Share Posted January 18, 2004 Well Boghos I stand corrected (didn't really mean to question your radical youth - LOL...or at all compare it with mine...) - and your father sounds like a fine man. I apologize for any negative insinuations. Regardless I believe that my basic points are valid...that certain people from certain political peruasions certainly are without a clue and don't give a damn regardless. So as always people sometimes have to be forced (I don't think that this is necessary authoritarian - its just reality). And yes i do believe I am pretty aware - and more then just on an academic level...but I have never claimed to know any/all the answers....but I am certainly entitled to my ideas and opinions and I would be careful trying to peg me as I do not at all feel I fall strictly within any standard libera,l agenda or otherwise. And if I sound arrogant - well I'm not - though I'm sorry - not intentional - but I can see that some may think such...and i do admit then when i see certain folks who present themselves one way - but have a hidden (ugly) agenda I will come out guns blazing - again sorry if I come accross overly combative...and again I did not mean to disparage you...and admit I was a bit hot..and still am incredulous that you are supporting this guy...but Ok - I can accept it perhaps in a narrow sense..and we certainly don't have to agree - thoguh I think his agenda will become more clear to you if you read more of his posts.. And yes I certainly espouse the benefits/desirebleness of the "good life" - or high life or wha have you - and I see nothing wrong with that - when have I ever declared myself a socialist or what not...heh I'm net even a Christian remember? But that doesn't mean that I don't have sympathy for those less fortunate and am not concerned with social and other problems of the world. And indeed I spent a fair part of my day yesterday arranging for one of my older autos to be (fixed up and) passed to a poor single mother who was in need...I am also involved in giving to various food banks and support other programs for needy families...etc etc (and am involved in environmental restoration efforts, education, and monitoring (and related) efforts as well...including doing some hands on work (monitoring stream quality, picking up trash that sort of thing...). And speaking of work...LOL - to imply that I don't work or haven't - well that is a laugh. In fact I have worked continuously - without interuption since I was 14-15 years old. I initially had a lawn and garden business, used to babysit and do odd jobs then I worked at various restaruants (washing dishes!) for 6-8 years (and continued to do so throughout going to school (and even after) - and I started at Jonhs Hopkins University at the age of 14...graduated by age 18-19 or so..and have been working professionally since....which is why at 42 I've nearly 25 years in and am even contemplating retirement (by 50...I certainly feel that I've earned it)...So yes I've workd a bit..sometimes in a professional capacity during the weekdays while I still worked restaruants nights and weekends...so I'm no coddled rich kid - not hardly...as I also paid for my own education (minus the first year which my folks covered)...and without grants, loans, scholarships or what not - cash on the table in fact - literally. And yes I live pretty well...thanks not only to my salary - but my (feminsit) wife's - certainly a benefit eh? Were not rich - by standards of the world for the wealthy - not hardly - but I think we do quite well - each well into 6 figures - so yes - the good life..pretty much...I should think so...and why not eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted January 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2004 Well Thoth if you hadn't made people the subjects in this discussion and instead remained on subject, we wouldn't be justifying ourselves here now would we? Instead you attacked the messenger in every instance, instead of confining yourself to the message. Let's move back to the topic or face the closure of another thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anileve Posted January 19, 2004 Report Share Posted January 19, 2004 This is what I think about the rat and his clan ! Everyone lay off THOTH, as far as I am concerned he is the only male that came to the defense of the hollow, superior and pretentious conceptions of feminism, the only other individual is Stormy. And Sasun I didn't expect that from you… Sasun wrote: “What is your point Stormig? I am not a woman. If someone called me feminine it's sure for insulting.” Why would that insult you? What is so insulting about femininity, as far as I am concerned both genders have attributes that are to be admired, mind you attributes that have been completely assigned by the society and no other factors. Femininity is associated with kindness, care, gentleness, life, sensuality and an ability to endure pain. Now explain to me, what is so negative about associating yourself with those qualities? Who the hell decides what people should and should not be? What gives a woman the right to decide what a man should act like and who the hell gave men the right to decide what a woman should belike, perhaps it makes more sense to establish our identity and answer for our flaws and intentional pain we direct on to others before we start molding people into our “ignorant” understanding what the opposite gender should be. Moreover I don’t understand people inability to decipher smart individuals capable of weaving articulate phrases yet intentionally instigating commotion and clashes and evoking arguments. I guess it is true everyone loves a conspiracy! IT is so often that I see people stumble in to the web of manipulation, overwhelmed with the knowledge and eloquence of another, not being able to see past the intent. Those were some of histories dangerous figures. Being in procession of eloquence they gained respect and succeeded in capturing attention of others, while their thoughts and views were based on disrespect and neglect for other people’s beliefs and individual freedom. The Crusades, Karl Marx, Hitler, Lenin, Napoleon, Castro just to name a few notorious figures armed with a possession of articulateness and an ability to spin heads, gained followers and were forgiven their illogical perceptions, ignoring the freedom of difference and causing destruction. Now when I read ignorant, disrespectful, insulting, pompous, egomaniac, deflated filth like: “On the contrary what makes any male effeminate is their constant whining when they don't get their way or if they lack the tools of logic to present and argument ( and resort to emotional rants and raves and name calling such as you have ). Thus you are an effeminate male, since your beetching reminds me of how a woman beetches on PMS.” (credit goes to Anonwho? Who cares?). And then in other threads I read things like “Anon, you are so hot and hilarious”, coming from women who read the above quote, I realize that people are just… It is the fault of women that they have been oppressed for so long, it is their fault that many men consider women intellectually challenged. Hearing insults towards their gender, getting beaten up by their crackhead boyfriends, they still flock to those damn losers with expectation to be abused verbally and physically again. They exude statements like “He beats me, but I love him,” and after hearing derogatory remarks about their gender they say” Oh he’s hot!” What the hell is wrong with people! Meanwhile guys who are intelligent, sensitive, humorous, kind and genuine are called effeminate (as an insult). Has everyone completely lost their sanity? Stormy thank you for being the only one to notice the mucus comment made, apparently it doesn’t bother other women. But when did it ever? I mean if even nairi says things like well if I wasn’t able to have the freedom, I would stay home cook and clean and do all the great things a woman may do, neglecting the fact that she misconstrues the work of women that fought for decades for what we have now! Why is it so damn difficult to understand that it is not about changing the roles of women, but opening doors and ears for them. That they have a choice to pick any role they want to play in their life, that no longer are they born with a seal of domestication on their foreheads. Women can now have a domestic life as well as fly planes, if you don’t like a professor or a computer technician because they defy your idea of femininity (I guess they don’t bitch and rant like the feminine women, compliments to Anonyho for that brilliant definition), then don’t freaking chase after them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Get yourself Betty Crocker! Only immature individuals living in their own insecurities can presumptuously pretend to know all about the humanity and what shall be and what shall work and what should not. Why is it so difficult to understand that women and men are born with different personalities and assigning labels to people is to rob them of their individuality? Why can’t people just freaking worry about their own fears and mistakes and flaws, why must we always enforce our ideas onto others? Who the hell gave you the ruling finger, get out of the freaking “Creator” chair and let people have their own individuality and their beliefs! God knows it is difficult to piss me off on the internet, and I am very patient, but I guess you are talented after all Anon. My hat goes off to you for having an exceptional ability to piss people off! Gosh what a quality to be proud of, bravo to you! The worst thing is to apologize when you really don’t mean it and then continue. 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Sasun Posted January 19, 2004 Report Share Posted January 19, 2004 And Sasun I didn't expect that from you… Sasun wrote: “What is your point Stormig? I am not a woman. If someone called me feminine it's sure for insulting.” Why would that insult you? What is so insulting about femininity...? Evelina, let's think about it. Why would someone call a man feminine or effeminate? Is that because the person thinks the man has kindness, care, gentleness, life, sensuality and an ability to endure pain. I don't thinks so. It is very obvious why - the person called me effeminate to insult me. Now, why would someone use the word "effeminate" to insult? Is that because being feminine is inferior? Apparently, the person who insulted me used the word "effeminate" with that context. Therefore, you should ask the person who was insulting me for the answer and not me. And by the way, Anonymouse is not the most sensitive person on earth but he is not vicious or enemy of women as it may have seemed. That's my opinion, I don't think he hates women as he was incorreclty portraied. Yes, he is very sarcastic and cynical about many things and about himself but that's not a terrible crime in my mind to deserve the many harsh words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anileve Posted January 19, 2004 Report Share Posted January 19, 2004 Au contraire Sasun, I know his views on women that is precisely why I am so irritated. Believe me I know an instigator when I see one, and I know when someone is just joking around, sarcasm runs in my blood. But I just can't tolerate ignorance and superiority and disrespect! You don't know crap about the subject don't force your views on to others, listen and try to understand rather than jump to the well of ignorant illusions. As for making ignorant statements about femininity, it doesn't make matters better when you dip it further in the mud even . Without femininity this world would be nothing short of a slaughter arena. And THOTH, man how could you out of all? isn't cowardice the primo sign of effimininity? Crap do you guys even think, when you make these comments about the female members of this forum? I mean what the hell are women supposed to think when they read this filth? "Femininity is cowardice, bitching, ranting, weakness, domestication and submission?" I mean do you even realize how you are married to women, sleep with women and date them considering your thoughts of their gender? Young women are ashamed of being feminists, they are ashamed to be smart and speak their minds because they are called bitches. I am told that I should be a nurse or a fashion designer, because I am too feminine!!!!!!!!!!! My father told me that it's ok if a man hits me if I was acting like a bitch, I must have deserved it!!!!!!!! I have an idea for men, why don't they just get bitches (dogs), that way they can call them for they are and train them to serve them, I bet you they would if the idea of bestiality wasn't so repulsive! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 19, 2004 Report Share Posted January 19, 2004 sarcasm runs in my blood I thought of the same about Anon when I (jokingly) suggested you to fill out an application form But never mind, it doesn't really matter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Anileve, you are interpreting our comments the way you want to interpret them and not the way we wrote them. It may surprise you that we agree on more things than we disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axel Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Yet another "The more I love you the more I hate you" (or vice versa) relationship. I think anileve and anonymouse would make a wonderful couple. They have so much in common. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Bravo Anileve, excellent comments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted January 20, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Well, I've given up on this thread. But on a side note, feminism might make men effeminate, but that still doesn't mean you won't crush your package when you cross your legs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Evelina, so much more could be said, but I don't care anymore. Like refuting the genocide with denialists day in and day out, this thing with women's rights has grown old. You tell off male chauvinist SOB's in several threads and then in the form of the ugliest sarcasm and such you are told about female chauvinists as if there are man-haters among us or as if we come across them often in the real world (I have yet to know one personally). I'm sick and tired of it (and quite a few other same old same old discussions) no matter what. Like I said, this thread is --> and no that is not chocolate mousse seeing stars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anileve Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 On the contrary what makes any male effeminate is their constant whining when they don't get their way or if they lack the tools of logic to present and argument ( and resort to emotional rants and raves and name calling such as you have ). Thus you are an effeminate male, since your beetching reminds me of how a woman beetches on PMS. Anon, care to retract your statement? Thank you Anoushik, it’s nice to get some support around here besides Winston and Stormy. Well Sasun jan and axel thank you for your matchmaking efforts but I do believe that feminist and anti-feminist are polar opposites. Now I do have a better suggestion, how about Accelerated and Anonymouse. That duo I would think is a match made in heaven. They pretty much agree on everything, they both capitalize the first letters of their aliases and they both start with the first letter of the alphabet and finally they are both anti-feminists? Need I say more, ladies and gentlemen I think we have found ourselves “HYEFORUM SWEETHEARTS”! TA DA! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anileve Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Evelina, so much more could be said, but I don't care anymore. Like refuting the genocide with denialists day in and day out, this thing with women's rights has grown old. You tell off male chauvinist SOB's in several threads and then in the form of the ugliest sarcasm and such you are told about female chauvinists as if there are man-haters among us or as if we come across them often in the real world (I have yet to know one personally). I'm sick and tired of it (and quite a few other same old same old discussions) no matter what. Like I said, this thread is --> and no that is not chocolate mousse seeing stars. Stormiq, thanks so much for stepping to the plate, it’s refreshing to see such sound and encouraging thoughts. I agree women’s rights have grown old, and constantly battling against the warped image and misconstrued understanding of the movement and ideology can become very frustrating, however it is important in my opinion to clear the name, since it is even women that are afraid to associate themselves with the term. I blame it on the wrongful education or a neglect to channel the information in schools. In fact I don’t remember any of my classes emphasizing the importance of the movement or acknowledging the achievement of women, thus most women don’t even know who Susan B. and Elizabeth S. are, which is very sad. I remember even raising a question in my politics class, when my prof covered every constitutional amendment and neglected to talk about the 19th and none of the women even knew what it was about or the history behind it, in fact they knew absolutely nothing period. Which is very sad, because wrongful opinions are based on the lack of knowledge and can become disturbingly distorted. It is exactly for those reasons why I keep battling, perhaps to just shed some light, as much as I am capable of. In terms of man haters, I absolutely agree, I haven’t encountered even one yet. In fact I think feminism brought me to understand men and individualism more than if I was to read that filthy book “Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus” What a bunch of kaka mania was that! “Women go shopping to vent and men prefer to be alone”….Yuck! Personally I have a lot more male friends than female, not by choice but I guess by my interest in people as individuals in general rather than genders. I think that if women understood themselves a bit more and worry about their identities rather than finding a perfect mate, our situation would have been a lot easier. Especially in the Armenian tradition where young women are taught from childhood that they must sacrifice themselves for the benefit of their family (first parents, then husbands) they lose their identity and value as a result of that, where I think it is very important for people to always preserve their individuality yet contribute enough to the unit for it to be strong. Crap, most women don’t even know the basics of their anatomy, meanwhile men have 500 possible terms and explanation for every anatomical particle as well as any bodily occurrence. I think that both genders can learn a lot from each other, if we just take our time open our ears and really listen, and stop applying social determinants of our roles and prescriptions to our gender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Super post Anileve! And Kudos to all the (few) gals who have the gumption to stick up for themselves a bit. If it weren't for all your "radical" feminists none of the rest of you would be enjoying (even) the priviledges that you have...and if you don't stand up for yourselves you certainly can't expect (most) men to at all care really...shame that - but its well demonstrated here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Why is it so damn difficult to understand that it is not about changing the roles of women, but opening doors and ears for them. If this is so, then why were these doors and words forced on me? As for you Thoth, I am surprised you write this: And Kudos to all the (few) gals who have the gumption to stick up for themselves a bit. when I am the sole female in the opposition "sticking up for myself", simply because I refuse to absorbed by any form of -ism, be it liberalism, nazism and even individualism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted January 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 If this is so, then why were these doors and words forced on me? As for you Thoth, I am surprised you write this: when I am the sole female in the opposition "sticking up for myself", simply because I refuse to absorbed by any form of -ism, be it liberalism, nazism and even individualism. Ohhhh, I like you. I feel the same way. I have an ism, for your prism ( mind ), and if you want it, you will have it. And if you want an ism, youd lose your power to think for yourselfism. La la la la. I have an ism, for your prism. This could be a cool pop song. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 La la la la. I have an ism, for your prism. This could be a cool pop song. Yes typical trash that apeals to the ignorant masses... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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