gurgen Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 Philosophers are not supposed to be subjective and materialistic. They are supposed to transcend the boundaries of subjectivism and materialism in implementing systems and thought processes. Politician is simply a label. If you consider the person who gets to sit in a president's office a politician, then a philosopher who gets to sit in that office (not the temporary act of sitting, I'm talking about serving a presidency term) would be considered a politician, yes. But would he cease to be a philosopher? So a politician who practices philosophy does not cease to be a politician? Like the Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius for example. If we had more of his kind, why is there a need for philosophers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 Another thing that really annoys me is the fact that we have a special literature course (thank god only optional!!) dedicated solely to American Women Writers, but not a single one dedicated solely to (American) Male Writers, even though the regular literature courses deliberately omit some of the best authors (who happen to be male) by replacing them with their mediocre female counterparts, simply because they are women. Even worse, the women get most of the attention in these regular courses, again, simply because they are women and not because they are good authors. It's even sadder to see these (radical) feminist professors drool all over these female authors just because they happen to be of the same sex. Reminds of Armenian nationalists drooling over a past and present that only exists in their wildest fantasies. It gets even worse in Art history - I've been attending one course, which had a two-part lecture on "gender and race". Lecturer drooling over stuff like photographs of a woman walking around New York in the 1960s with a rag stuffed in her mouth, or a woman being ironic in recreating fashion / glamour poses. Decided to give the second part a miss because I would probably have been arguing too much! "Artists of colour", peuk! Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 Like the Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius for example. If we had more of his kind, why is there a need for philosophers? - especially since he invaded and annexed Armenia! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurgen Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 - especially since he invaded and annexed Armenia! Who didn't? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anileve Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 See first we talk about merging gender barriers, and then you specifically bring forward Women Writers and form your opinions of women in literature based on a few individuals. Once again, since everyone ignored my post… I took basic literature courses and none of them extensively covered female writers. In fact all of the books we read were written by men, and not for once did I think…damn men write crap. Excuse me, but I don’t particularly enjoy Dickens or Steinbeck for that matter, however I don’t believe that I view their literature in the frames of “gender”. There are tons of filthy male authors, but no one screams that men suck in literature, however if one comes across a small cluster of 5 unfortunate authors they stretch the parameters and label them as the representatives of their gender in the literature arena. Are you so bothered, that women have their own? I have said before and I will say again, women not knowing the accomplishments of other women through out history have a hard time finding role models. Instead they look up to Marylin Monroe and Britney Spears. While men have tons of role models to relate to, depending on the age. Is it so bad for young women from oppressed cultures to learn about their bodies, and history that displays that they are worth more than reproduction tools? I remember taking my health class in Junior High School, we had to share the class with testosterone driven little boys who would giggle and mock everything. As a result girls were too ashamed to ask any questions, and many of them made wrong choices because their parents were too conservative to talk to them about it. I even remember a very young lady who broke down in tears and told me that she gave birth to a still life baby in the toilet. She didn’t have anyone to talk to. It’s so easy for men to judge, because most of the time women don’t tell their intimate stories simply in fear that they will be shamed. So they sit and say why do you need this, why do you need that? What is wrong with women embracing their difference, celebrating their womanhood and perceiving themselves as equals? And women that disagree are usually the ones that simply do not bother to really listen to the stories of others, nor are they interested to, but they are quick to form their opinions. Feminism doesn’t have clearly defined parameters by the way. It means something different for each individual, what it doesn’t mean is fanaticism and a clear intent to destroy a family or femininity and a movement towards lesbianism. That is just ”threatened male” propaganda. Why must you fight the system that brings a sense of purpose and value to some and empowers others? So what if they have female literature courses, or female artists are extensively covered in class? No one minds when it comes to the mechanics class, or the engineering courses, computer networking, which are very male oriented areas. It never bothers women, why should it bother men? How can women find role models to grow up with or look up to, if the significance of women in life, aside from a domesticated aspect, is not discussed or welcomed or viewed as a joke? Another interesting observation…Women want to be viewed as beautiful, that is the highest compliment you can pay a woman. On the other hand men hardly receive compliments from women that they are very handsome, men want to be viewed successful and powerful. Question to Men: Do you ever hear or tell your guy friends or do you tell your friends…. “She never tells me that I am handsome, she always tells me that my butt is too fat and gawks at other men. I am thinking of getting a penis implant and perhaps a butt lift.” My guess is never. Ladies sounds familiar? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anileve Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 Ha!!! Nairi, well said!!! Exactly what I've thought frequently! I remember taking a course in Elizabethan and Jacobean literature, and half the poets were women (Isabella Whitney, Anne Cecil De Vere, Anne Dowriche, Mary Sidney, Aemilia Lanyer, Mary Wroth, Rachel Speght, etc.)... With all due respect to all the women on here and all the feminists and all the woman poets, I don't consider them gifted at all (some were good, most were not). Definitely not comparable to Sir Phillip Sidney, Edmund Spenser, John Donne, Sir Walter Raleigh, and the rest of them "misogynists"..... it's a shame that academic curricula are being altered for the sake of political correctness. And what's with Virginia Woolf? I think she's pretty horrible for a writer... Her essays are boring and so hateful of men. If you've read "A Room of One's Own," you'd see what I mean (although it doesn't extend throughout the essay). I guess this a lesson to be learned, first impressions are not reliable. I jumped to a conclusion too fast. I retrieve my enthusiastic comments I've made earlier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 Great post Ani! (most certtainly...but I'm afraid its going over just about everyone's head here...don't sdispair - I've cerainly gotten used to such of late...)...and yeah who would have thought that a wolf could morph (evolve?) into a mouse... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anileve Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 (edited) and yeah who would have thought that a wolf could morph (evolve?) into a mouse... HAHAHA! THOTH jan, I love the little game of metaphors you have mastered, teach me someday? And thanks... Edited February 11, 2004 by anileve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 HAHAHA! THOTH jan, I love the little game of metaphors you have mastered, teach me someday? And thanks... Would love to Aniluv.....yeah if I am properly I don't know - perhaps its cafienated...or chewing on some particualry potent red Ginseng or Guarana...and am in the groove...what can I say...just watch the master at work eh? LOL But of late I must admit to only putting forward only a fraction of my energy/attention (towards this site...)...other matters concern me more...and I am finding the discussion and tone here much less interesting of late... And your very welcome of course... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anileve Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 and am in the groove... I think the appropriate question would be, when aren't you? what can I say...just watch the master at work eh? LOL Yes master, lead the way, I shall follow the light in the tunnel to reach that enlightenment, that I seek. But of late I must admit to only putting forward only a fraction of my energy/attention (towards this site...)...other matters concern me more...and I am finding the discussion and tone here much less interesting of late... Well then, perhaps it's time to spice it up then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 I think the appropriate question would be, when aren't you? Sorry we're not talking abut my libido now are we? (in the groove..in the mood that sort of thing...eh?) LOL Yes master, lead the way, I shall follow the light in the tunnel to reach that enlightenment, that I seek. Are you familiar with the sermon Brian gives in the (Monty Python) movie "The Life of Brian" - the one right after he shags Lilith... Well then, perhaps it's time to spice it up then? ...perhaps...my desire for such comes and goes...so don't know - have to see...i have not been feeling very positve about thsi forum of late...so its tough for me to build any true enthusiasm (except through negative energy...but keep posting because i do find your posts very stimulating..and I wish others - like Vayrii were still posting as well....)... And love the sig - regarding dear Azat - so true..I agree...me too (ie you could add me as well....) ...and I'm very proud of that fact...it means that I am a bit more demonstratably evolved IMO...LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 Ani jan, it's the corruption that I despise. Nothing more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted February 11, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 Great post Ani! (most certtainly...but I'm afraid its going over just about everyone's head here...don't sdispair - I've cerainly gotten used to such of late...)...and yeah who would have thought that a wolf could morph (evolve?) into a mouse... ..and be more wise than the God of Wisdom himself, eh? Indeed, who would have thought? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
den_wolf Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 anileve, I don't think anyone is claiming that all women writers suck. What I was pointing out is the fact that a lot of women writers are included in the curricula simply so that the university or the program would not be called sexist. Same goes to different races. Half the English Literature courses in almost any university in North America is conceerned with Caribbean Literature. Half of that is trash. What explains that the trashy half is included? So that there would be some "equality" which reality and history did not bring forth. The situation is the same with the quota systems at universities. Here in England, on the application for admission (whether graduate or undergraduate), it asks you what your ethnic origin is. For example, on the U of Liverpool Postgraduate application, it says: In order for us to monitor equal opportunities, we would appreciate it if you would answer the following questions. Ethnic Origin: Please tick the box which you feel best describes your ethnic origin: White - British White - Irish Other White Background Black or Black British - Caribbean Black or Black British - African Other Black background Asian or Asian British - Indian Asian or Asian British - Pakistani Asian or Asian British - Bangladeshi Chinese or Other Ethnic background - Chinese Other Asian background Mixed - White and Black Caribbean Mixed - White and Black African Mixed - White and Asian Other Mixed background Other Ethnic background Now please tell me why there is an equality difference between a Bangladeshi (mentioned in application) and between an Armenian (not mentioned in the application). My problem is not that Armenian is not mentioned, but that Bangladeshi is mentioned. My point is that, this is very similar to the way things work in curricula and the inclusion of a lot of non-majority authors, in such an intense manner that half the reading list of someone majoring in English Literature is full of trash. Moreover, in an attempt to spread "open-mindedness", such courses are made obligatory for graduation. The bottom line is, you cannot impose art on anyone. Equality cannot be used to assess artistic worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anileve Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 Ani jan, it's the corruption that I despise. Nothing more. nairi jan, please explain. I am not really clear on this statement. Why must it be purely political to you? You can extract the positive aspects of the movement that serve as an inspiration to you and leave out the negativity. Don't dwell on the ramification of the definitions, just like the government make it work for you on your terms. Just like for a woman who is constantly told that she is not worth anything and is beaten by her husband needs a positive theory to rely on. Something that would inspire her to gain her value. So in that case feminism can serve as the source of spiritual strengh and empowerment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 ...and its just the right...dare I say..evolved...perspective IMO. And like Ani says in her wonderful sig (thanks Ani Jan!) - if attitudes were more laisez faire about gender roles and if there wasn't descrimination and bottonholing of people etc - well there would be no need for any -isms in this regard...peole would jjst be open and accepting and not be biased or descriminate...seems simple to me rally..but aparently not to many others...and so sure - i can admit that to have a "movement" and to have to perhaps be in ones face and what not is not ideal..but it may jst be necessary sometimes considering the circumstances. And if I were a women I would expect nothing less! (then to be treated as a full human!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anileve Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 anileve, I don't think anyone is claiming that all women writers suck. What I was pointing out is the fact that a lot of women writers are included in the curricula simply so that the university or the program would not be called sexist. Same goes to different races. Half the English Literature courses in almost any university in North America is conceerned with Caribbean Literature. Half of that is trash. What explains that the trashy half is included? So that there would be some "equality" which reality and history did not bring forth. The situation is the same with the quota systems at universities. Here in England, on the application for admission (whether graduate or undergraduate), it asks you what your ethnic origin is. For example, on the U of Liverpool Postgraduate application, it says: Now please tell me why there is an equality difference between a Bangladeshi (mentioned in application) and between an Armenian (not mentioned in the application). My problem is not that Armenian is not mentioned, but that Bangladeshi is mentioned. My point is that, this is very similar to the way things work in curricula and the inclusion of a lot of non-majority authors, in such an intense manner that half the reading list of someone majoring in English Literature is full of trash. Moreover, in an attempt to spread "open-mindedness", such courses are made obligatory for graduation. The bottom line is, you cannot impose art on anyone. Equality cannot be used to assess artistic worth. Wolf, here is where I get the implication: With all due respect to all the women on here and all the feminists and all the woman poets, I don't consider them gifted at all (some were good, most were not). Definitely not comparable to Sir Phillip Sidney, Edmund Spenser, John Donne, Sir Walter Raleigh, and the rest of them "misogynists"..... it's a shame that academic curricula are being altered for the sake of political correctness. Indirectly you do indicate that women's literature is trash. Otherwise why would you compare women writers to specifically male writers? You could have simply mixed them up by including both genders in your comparison, but you drew the line of clear separation. Your perceptives are evident, admit it, it's impossible for me to view it otherwise, better be honest than politically correct huh? The only reason I am advocating that courses for women should exist is for women to learn about themselves. I've heard many claim that Armenian literature falls short of the richness in Russian literature, I for one agree. That is why I would favor a class with a concentration on Armenian literature perhaps to learn something that I omitted, and something that would bring excitement upon my patriotism. (although it isn't so, but many feel that way). It's a sense of belonging, a sense of relating yourself to something significant. As for political correctness, well if we want to eliminate political correctness we should also erase nationalism and patriotism, since those ideals go hand in hand with each other. Until we are a various "bundles" of differences, every individual should be embraced and if not individually (it's virtually impossible) than scoop them up in the closest groups that consist of similar characteristics. Thus every group wants to be important, from that stems political correctness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anileve Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 And if I were a women I would expect nothing less! (then to be treated as a full human!) THOTH jan, where have you been all my life? No, I am thankful that you are not of the blood line of the one that committed the Original sin. It's good to know that people are capable of empathy without actually involving self interests and being able to step into other people's shoes. I'm so glad you are posting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
den_wolf Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 (edited) Indirectly you do indicate that women's literature is trash. No indeed I do not. I said most of it is, some of it isn't. The fact that most of it is trash is not my fault. So don't blame me for it. I don't like women who play the blame-victim game with me, especially when I never said something to the effect of "all women are b*tches/pigs." Otherwise why would you compare women writers to specifically male writers? Excuse me? It's called comparative literature. Why would I not compare women writers to male writers? If you want equality, you must accept what comes with it, including competition with men. You cannot have double standards. Your perceptives are evident, admit it, it's impossible for me to view it otherwise, better be honest than politically correct huh? My perspectives are evident, yes, but you have chosen to misinterpret them. I still believe that half the literature of women and Caribbean/African writers is trash, and by trash I mean "something that shouldn't have been published, even." But it has been published, and is being glorified in university curricula. I have nothing against women writers. I love Austen's novels, the Bronte sisters' poems and novels, Dickinson's poems, but things like Dionne Brand are pure trash. Trash. Unimaginable. What has literary value come down to? Affirmative action. And perhaps that is why we no longer see Austens and Brontes.. The only reason I am advocating that courses for women should exist is for women to learn about themselves. I am not against courses for and about women. You can have all the courses about women in the world, just don't force me to take them, especially that half of the material is TRASH. If they had been written by males, I would've said that same!! And indeed, I do make that comment for some male writers too. The difference is not that there are less women writers who are gifted, but that there are so many who are overrated, which really overshadows the REAL gifted women. And 90% of all English Literature departments are now women. In England, about 60 years ago, 90% were men. Were they too "effeminate" to study English Literature? I think not. So what happened in 60 years that made things look so "good" for women? Affirmative action. Quotas. And they wonder why there are no men in English Literature? That no men are interested in it because they are more interested in applied things (science, engineering) is a myth. the myth of radical feminism, affirmative action, and other sexist and racist systems. Yes, you got that right. Racist and sexist. Both. That it is against white "privileged" males makes it no less racist than a system that was against black "underprivileged" men/women. Edited February 12, 2004 by den_wolf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axel Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 Feminism is inverted sexism. It professes that of which it denounces the negative effects: gender polarization. Instead of working towards mutual understanding and emphasizing complementarity, it fosters division and breeds hatred. So-called "Positive discrimination" is inept. It is insulting for someone to be recognized because of political correctness instead of his/her own abilities. I don't understand people who lament the lack of meritocracy and then argue for the establishment of anti-meritocratic policies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 Hm thats funny Axel...I'm a feminist and i don't hate men! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axel Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 If I were a woman, I would despise you. If I were a feminist, not only would I try to hide my contempt but I would pretend to be appreciative of your opinions inasmuch as they would suit my ends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 nairi jan, please explain. I was pointing out the corruption in the English department at my school. That's all. I'm sorry for any misunderstanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
den_wolf Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 If I were a woman, I would despise you. If I were a feminist, not only would I try to hide my contempt but I would pretend to be appreciative of your opinions inasmuch as they would suit my ends. axel, man, great posts!!! I agree with your last 2 posts. Well said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 axel, man, great posts!!! I agree with your last 2 posts. Well said. Really - frankly i have no idea what he is talking about - except for being his usual idiotic self... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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