Communism

[Dan]

Actually, following uploading the pics to that gallery, I was banned from the website:

 

I got the following message: "You are currently banned from using this site."

 

Nowhere in their terms of agreement do they say that pics of rallies are forbidden to be posted. Talking about freedom and democracy? Riiiight..

[Shahumyan]

the irony.

 

The freedoms that we do have today are only those that the workers have pressured to get, the bourgeois never gave us power, we took it.

 

As for democracy, we dont have any. If you call someone getting elected coz he got the backing of the capitlaists democracy then u must be craaaaaaaaaaaaaaaazy

[Dan]

well, i agree, and that is why U.$.A's justification for the war (besides the WMD issue) to liberate Iraqis is/was nothing but a joke and a way to deceive the world. if it were up to capitalists, we wouldn't have had the minor freedoms that allow us to go around our business every day. and look who;s talking about freedom and democracy now.. if iraqis wanted freedom from their dictator, they would've revolted a long time ago. like i said, all revolutions came from within, without any nation claiming that it was gonna help the poor oppressed people. it was the poor oppressed people who started those revolutions, and they won.

[gamavor]

Some jokes make you laugh, some others you memorize because of their wit, and some others are what I call "evergreens". They surpass the limits of time and space. They are more valuable than any material evidences of our human failures.

Here it is with a risk to repeat myself. Please, excuse my Russian!

 

Poprosili Radio Erevan, chto lutchshe - komunism libo onanism?

Radio otvetilo: Gorazdo lutchshe g.. v rukah, chem p.... na garizonte!

[Dan]

Poprosili Radio Erevan, chto lutchshe - komunism libo onanism?

Radio otvetilo: Gorazdo lutchshe g.. v rukah, chem p.... na garizonte!

gamavor, could you translate that for me? Alas, I don't know Russian... My mom does, but I don't feel like waking her up right now.

[gamavor]

Dan, don't even think about waking up your Mom!!! I'm not going to translate it. Ask somebody else

[Dan]

I'm not going to translate it. Ask somebody else

Great, now I can't sleep till I find out what that means.. thanks a lot..

[Shahumyan]

Dan, i think the translation is here:

 

http://discussion.newyouth.com/showthread....s=&threadid=569 among other funny jokes. Theres 2 Radio Yerevan ones

[Dan]

Dan, i think the translation is here:

 

http://discussion.newyouth.com/showthread....s=&threadid=569 among other funny jokes. Theres 2 Radio Yerevan ones

i still haven't found it, but ok.. thnx anyway.

[Shahumyan]

Radio Jerevan time signal: Beep ... Beep ... Beep ... Beep ... Beeeeep! It's exactly 9:00, at most 9:30.

 

 

 

Radio Jerevan time signal: Beep ... Beep ... Beep ... Beep ... Beeeeep! It's exactly 12:00. A special bulletin for KGB members: Don't be concerned about the disappearance of the little hand. It is behind the big one.

 

 

 

Radio Jerevan receives a question from a listener. "Is it true that cars are being given away in Red Square in Moscow."

"That is correct, except for a few small errors. First, it isn't Moscow, but Leningrad. Second, it isn't Red Square, but the banks of the river Neva. Third, it isn't cars but bicycles. Fourth, they're not given away, but stolen.

 

 

 

Radio Jerevan receives a question from a listener: "What is the best form of contraception?"

"A glass of water."

"Before or after?" asks the listener.

"Instead of."

 

 

 

Radio Jerevan receives a question from a listener: "Is it true that wheat in the USSR grows like telephone poles."

"Yes," says Radio Jerevan, "but not in height, only in sparseness."

[Armat]

It is really sad that after twenty million deaths caused by Communism, Stalinism we still have dreamers.

That cancer called communism wiped some of our dearest, smartest writers, artists, and intellectuals out.

If I suffer because of lack of money, job then that is preferable then suffering from lack of freedom.

They say freedom is often valued when one loses it.

Mr. Shahumyan

You may have big heart for caring about the poor and unfortunate but your approach is counterproductive by every measure.

It is totally pointless to argue about the merits of something, which after seventy-five years proved itself as a failure.

[Yeznig]

It is really sad that after twenty million deaths caused by Communism, Stalinism we still have dreamers.

That cancer called communism wiped some of our dearest, smartest writers, artists, and intellectuals out.

If I suffer because of lack of money, job then that is preferable then suffering from lack of freedom.

They say freedom is often valued when one loses it.

Mr. Shahumyan

You may have big heart for caring about the poor and unfortunate but your approach is counterproductive by every measure.

It is totally pointless to argue about the merits of something, which after seventy-five years proved itself as a failure.

One need not be a communist to see here a rather poor argument against communism.

 

Let us recall that Stalin was put in power by the British not by the communist movement.

 

This sounds bizarre...

 

But had the British through their intervention in Russia not exhausted the Russiam revolutionary movement and more particularly had the British not murdered the Armenian Stepan Shahoumyan then Stalin wold not have risen to the top of the Bolshevik Party.

 

In this context it is not correct to blame communism for the tragedies that befell Armenians and Russians and other people during the Stalinist era. Blame the British is perhaps historically more accurate.

 

Had Shahoumyan not fallen before a British organised execution squad he would probably had ended up as Commissar for Nationalities and pursued the strategy shared by Aleksanter Miasnikian and Aghassi Khanjian which in many respects dovetailed with the vision harboured by the great 19th century Armenian thinker Mikael Nalpantian.

 

 

As for those who defend the capitalist, free-market system I could ask in return: what about slavery, what about the colonial subjugation of Africa, Asia and Latin America. What about the destruction of Vietnman, the invasion of the Dominican Republic, the support for Pinochet's fascist regime in Chile, the blood-letting in Indonesia. What about the abuse of the globe, the abuse of the land and environment. The list is, as they say, as long as your arm, and longer too.

[gurgen]

Well, no system is perfect, but communism is an unrealistic idea.

The point is that people still believe in it, while it will never work.

It just can't, as long as we're humans.

[Shahumyan]

"Well, no system is perfect, but communism is an unrealistic idea"

-Yes ok, i appreciate you making a point...but wait...wheres the explaination??? just one line statement, nothing to back you up...why bother?

[Dan]

Well, no system is perfect, but communism is an unrealistic idea.

The point is that people still believe in it, while it will never work.

It just can't, as long as we're humans.

yes, and God exists... talk about assumptions (without proof or explanation...)

Edited January 27, 2004 by Dan

[Anileve]

I tried to stay away but I just couldn't. So here it is, my subjective view.

 

Let’s examine Economic conditions of Communist vs. Capitalist countries.

 

CAPITALIST

 

USA

 

Population 290,342,554 (July 2003 est.)

GDP purchasing power parity - $10.4 trillion (2002 est.)

GDP – real growth rate 2.45% (2002 est.)

Population below poverty line 12.7% (2001 est.)

Unemployment rate 5.8% (2002)

Net Migration rate: 3.52 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2003 est.)

 

COMMUNIST COUNTRIES

 

CUBA

 

Fidel CASTRO led a rebel army to victory in 1959; his iron rule has held the country together since then. Cuba's Communist revolution, with Soviet support, was exported throughout Latin America and Africa during the 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s. The country is now slowly recovering from a severe economic recession in 1990, following the withdrawal of former Soviet subsidies, worth $4 billion to $6 billion annually. Cuba portrays its difficulties as the result of the US embargo in place since 1961. Illicit migration to the US - using homemade rafts, alien smugglers, or falsified visas - is a continuing problem. Some 2,500 Cubans attempted the crossing of the Straits of Florida in 2002; the US Coast Guard apprehended about 60% of the individuals.

 

Population 11,263,429 (July 2003 est.)

GDP purchasing power parity - $25.9 billion (2002 est.)

GDP – real growth 0% (2002 est.)

Population below poverty line NA% (impossible to find)

Unemployment rate 4.1% (2001 est.)

established the death penalty for certain drug-related crimes in 1999

Net migration rate: -1.05 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2003 est.)

 

CHINA

 

For centuries China stood as a leading civilization, outpacing the rest of the world in the arts and sciences [until papa Marx stepped in]. But in the 19th and early 20th centuries, China was beset by civil unrest, major famines, military defeats, and foreign occupation. After World War II, the Communists under MAO Zedong established a dictatorship that, while ensuring China's sovereignty, imposed strict controls over everyday life and cost the lives of tens of millions of people. After 1978, his successor DENG Xiaoping gradually introduced market-oriented reforms and decentralized economic decision-making. Output quadrupled by 2000. Political controls remain tight while economic controls continue to be relaxed.

 

Population 1,286,975,468 (July 2003 est.)

GDP purchasing power parity - purchasing power parity - $5.7 trillion

GDP – real growth rate 8% (official data) (2002 est.)

Population below poverty line 10% (2001 est.)

Unemployment rate - urban unemployment roughly 10%; substantial unemployment and underemployment in rural areas (2002 est.)

Death rate - 7.38 deaths/1,000 population (2003 est.)

Net migration rate: -0.23 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2003 est.)

[Anileve]

NORTH KOREA

 

Following World War II, Korea was split, with the northern half coming under Communist domination and the southern portion becoming Western-oriented. KIM Chong-il has ruled North Korea since his father and the country's founder, president KIM Il-song, died in 1994. After decades of mismanagement, the North relies heavily on international food aid to feed its population while continuing to expend resources to maintain an army of about 1 million. North Korea's long-range missile development and research into nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons and massive conventional armed forces are of major concern to the international community. In December 2002, North Korea repudiated a 1994 agreement that shut down its nuclear reactors and expelled UN monitors, further raising fears it would produce nuclear weapons.

 

Population - 22,466,481 (July 2003 est.)

GDP purchasing power parity - $22 billion (2002 est.)

GDP – real growth rate 1% (2002 est.)

Population below poverty line NA% (impossible to find)

Unemployment rate NA% (3.4% in April and rising )

Net migration rate: 0 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2003 est.)

 

VIETNAM

 

Population 81,624,716 (July 2003 est.)

GDP purchasing power parity - purchasing power parity - $183 billion (2002 est.)

GDP – real growth rate 6% (2002 est.)

Population below poverty line 37% (1998 est.)

Unemployment rate 25% (1995 est.)

Net Migration rate: -0.46 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2003 est.)

 

LAOS

 

In 1975, the Communist Pathet Lao took control of the government, ending a six-century-old monarchy. Initial closer ties to Vietnam and socialization were replaced with a gradual return to private enterprise, a liberalization of foreign investment laws, and the admission into ASEAN in 1997.

 

Population 5,921,545 (July 2003 est.)

GDP purchasing power parity - purchasing power parity - $9.9 billion (2002 est.)

GDP – real growth rate 5.5% (2002 est.)

Population below poverty line 40% (2002 est.)

Unemployment rate 5.7% (1997 est.)

Net migration rate: 0 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2003 est.)

[Anileve]

FYI ------>Net Migration Rate - the net balance between in-migration to an area and out-migration from the area over a specified period of time (e.g., 10 years) on the area's population. When one refers to a net migration rate this net balance is expressed as an increase or a decrease per 1,000 population of the area at the start of the time period.

 

Side note: USA is one of the few Generous Economic Donors: following Japan it comes in #2 on the list with $6.9 billon (1997). Funny how I saw only capitalist countries on the list of donors and no communist countries. I guess that is because capitalists are greedy bastards…hmmm… I sense a contradiction.

 

Also notice a very important factor after you observe these statistics, all these communist countries have something in common, a declining or null rate in migration, where as United States have one of the largest migration rates. Interestingly enough all of the communist countries were on the top of the list of countries with the highest rates of refugees, apparently enough they are all migrating to the capitalist countries including the US.

 

Let’s leave out theories and philosophies, facts speak for themselves. If Communism were to be so efficient I would think that there would be more countries with communist states, it so happens to be that there are only 4 in the world, others are just miserably trying (Peru, look at the condition of their coutry).

 

And I hate this empty statement “workers should be delegated the power not the capitalists and authorities”, first of all this is absolutely absurd. Are CEOs and Chairmen not workers themselves, as much as I know they work twice as much as some of the factory workers who by the way get many benefits of the Union, yes in this capitalist country their rights are protected, unlike in third world countries where they are used for slave labor.

 

Secondly I hate the phrase for a reason that it speaks of distributing the power among the proletariats yet the government and the communist party are the ones to take control of the centralized power. The government controls all publications, radio, and television, and strongly restrict what maybe said or written.

 

I just can’t imagine what these communist philosophers would do if indeed communism would take over? What would they discuss if discussions besides the glory of communism would be restricted, what would they watch besides the lives of factory workers contributing to “the good of the whole society”, what would they listen to except for Communist Hymns, what would they eat except for the basic staple, what would they read except for the dry readings proclaiming the greatness of Marxism. The horror of such society existing for this would be an end to individualism and liberty, and despite of being in constant fear of being watched we will become robots living upon our basic needs with no room for any spiritual fulfillment or imagination. What would be the purpose of life then, if everyone is exactly like everyone else? How is it that they don’t see the sadness of this situation? Yet they keep yelling out clichés of Communism.

[Armen]

CHINA

 

For centuries China stood as a leading civilization, outpacing the rest of the world in the arts and sciences [until papa Marx stepped in]. But in the 19th and early 20th centuries, China was beset by civil unrest, major famines, military defeats, and foreign occupation. After World War II, the Communists under MAO Zedong established a dictatorship that, while ensuring China's sovereignty, imposed strict controls over everyday life and cost the lives of tens of millions of people. After 1978, his successor DENG Xiaoping gradually introduced market-oriented reforms and decentralized economic decision-making. Output quadrupled by 2000. Political controls remain tight while economic controls continue to be relaxed.

 

Population 1,286,975,468 (July 2003 est.)

GDP purchasing power parity - purchasing power parity - $5.7 trillion

GDP – real growth rate 8% (official data) (2002 est.)

Population below poverty line 10% (2001 est.)

Unemployment rate - urban unemployment roughly 10%; substantial unemployment and underemployment in rural areas (2002 est.)

Death rate - 7.38 deaths/1,000 population (2003 est.)

Net migration rate: -0.23 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2003 est.)

Anilive,

 

China is a big headache for pro-capitalism economists as it has secured an average 7.5% GDP growth already for 20 years.

[Dan]

Anileve,

 

are you taking into account the oppression and constant attacks those countries have been subjected to by the king of capitalism, namely U.$.A? (e.g. Korea, Vietnam, Cuba, Nicaragua, El Salvador, etc.)?

 

Moreover,

 

how can one explain the difference between this:

 

GDP purchasing power parity - $10.4 trillion (2002 est.)

GDP – real growth rate 2.45% (2002 est.)

 

and this:

Population below poverty line 12.7% (2001 est.)

Unemployment rate 5.8% (2002)

?

 

Are we to conclude, then, that capitalism has enlarged the gap between classes and led many people to their deaths? furthermore, which do you prefer: living in a country that has that kind of distribution (let's say considering that you're not poor), or a country that is more or less evenly distributed even if on the whole poor? Moreover, which would you prefer if you were poor: living in a country where you were homeless while an upper-class minority had 1 car for each member of the family (nothing less than a Rolls Royce), or a country where you might have suffered and worked hard and came home exhausted, or maybe went to bed hungry, but knew that there was some kind of equality, and that the system was open to change through revolution, unlike the cemented capitalist society of oppression and repression?

 

which, then, do you choose?

[Anileve]

Dan poverty in the United States is a choice, I work for an organization that provides food for the homeless free on continuous bases, I can't stress enough how many organizations exist to help the struggling class. It is a choice and they choose for many reasons to remain in poverty or refuse to work towards better conditions. And once again US is the second larges Economic donor, where as China was not on the list. Read this:

 

The 1965 Immigration Act reopened the gates to immigrants from Asia, allowing 20,000 immigrants from each country to enter every year. In the early 1990s, half of all immigrants entering annually are Asian. The growth of Asian-American population has been dramatic. In 1960, there were only 877,934 Asians in the United States, representing a mere 1% of American people. Thirty years later, they numbered about seven million or 3% of the population. They included 1,645,000 Chinese, and by the year of 2000, Asian Americans will probably represent 4% of the total United States population. In California, Asian Americans already make up 10% of the state's inhabitants, compared with 7.5% for African Americans.

 

According to the 1990 census conducted by the U.S. government, plus some 400 thousand Chinese immigrants admitted to U.S. in the past four years, there are approximately two million ethnic Chinese residing in the United States today. The majority of the Chinese are first generation immigrants who came to this country mainly from China, Taiwan, Hong Kong and Southeast Asian countries in the past two decades.

 

I wonder, if China is so successful, why is the immigration of Chinese on the rise, if there is no poverty involved, why is it that mainly the working class that is migrating here?

[Armen]

And once again US is the second larges Economic donor, where as China was not on the list.

 

In terms of current account balance US is the largest debtor in the world. So its not a big deal to share couple of billions with the third world

 

According to the 1990 census conducted by the U.S. government, plus some 400 thousand Chinese immigrants admitted to U.S. in the past four years, there are approximately two million ethnic Chinese residing in the United States today. The majority of the Chinese are first generation immigrants who came to this country mainly from China, Taiwan, Hong Kong and Southeast Asian countries in the past two decades.

 

I wonder, if China is so successful, why is the immigration of Chinese on the rise, if there is no poverty involved, why is it that mainly the working class that is migrating here?

 

China's economiy is only 50 years old. And if China's population was 300mln it would have been a very wealthy country.

[Anileve]

Also please pay attention to this:

 

 

USA

 

GDP purchasing power parity - $10.4 trillion (2002 est.)

 

Population below poverty line 12.7% (2001 est.)

 

Unemployment rate 5.8% (2002)

 

Net Migration rate: 3.52 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2003 est.)[increasing rate]

 

 

CHINA

GDP purchasing power parity - purchasing power parity - $5.7 trillion

 

Population below poverty line 10% (2001 est.) [10% and 12% is not far from each other]

 

Unemployment rate - urban unemployment roughly 10%; substantial

unemployment and underemployment in rural areas (2002 est.) [10% and 5.8% is far from each other]

 

Shahumyan perhaps you should consider relocation, you would fit right in. Perhaps China is your Xanadu? I say that instead of changing the structure of the intire system migrate to a place where your phylosophy will be welcomed, much easier solution.

 

Net migration rate: -0.23 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2003 est.) [declining rate]

 

Let us observe overall figures and not be selective in what we choose to see. Which figures are better? And that is considering that USA exercises individuality and liberty.

[Dan]

Dan poverty in the United States is a choice

wow... hey, i may join ranks with my pro-poverty brothers then... hey Shahumyan, how 'bout we both join, eh? i love freezing my *** and sleeping on the sidewalk when the weather is -15 Celsius, and then getting pneumonia.. what do you think? a good suggestion, no?

 

I wonder, if China is so successful, why is the immigration of Chinese on the rise, if there is no poverty involved, why is it that mainly the working class that is migrating here?

because they are bloody fools blinded by the U.$ propaganda and media lies about how great economy/society is in the States.. most chinese immigrants who come here collapse on the government (lazy bums, yada yada yada) or end up homeless. the rest work like hell, maybe even more than they used to in their own country, and only a very small small (i.e. 0.5%) number actually better their conditions (credit may go to accident or luck).

 

Edit note: same goes for Cubans who flee their country and run to Florida.

Edited December 14, 2003 by Dan

[Anileve]

China's economiy is only 50 years old. And if China's population was 300mln it would have been a very wealthy country.

If is the key. As far as 300 mln that is wishful thinking, presently the population rate is going in reverse as so many Chinese are leaving to "Capitalist" countries, please read my post above.