pepper Posted June 14, 2003 Report Share Posted June 14, 2003 i dont agree with your logic there Artaxias, but feel we're getting of the point anyway. my point is that from whatever part of the world your from, genetically we're the same. so the whole issue of whether there is a 'mongolion-armenian connection' is largely irrelevant if your talking about genetics. if your talking about culture then yes, there are differences, ones of which i'm proud of. this is what we should be celebrating, but at the same time realising we're all from the same source. or to put it another way, we are human first, armenian second. both of which i'm very happy about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artaxias Posted June 14, 2003 Report Share Posted June 14, 2003 Pepper, nobody is saying otherwise. We have the right to keep our culture and our features distinct.This is to say that if someone wants a future similar to Brazil, so be it.We don't.On the very basic level we are all the same. If we don't preserve what we faught for millenias we'll have more THOTH's running around with their disinformation claiming Armenians are middle eastern or this hagarag character saying we are a mixed race or mongolian.Maybe they are... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted June 14, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2003 Artaxias, I have NEVER claimed that WE are Mongolian. It is just that we are of mixed race. Just look around you closely in an Armenian crowd and you immediately realize this. Even the pictures you posted of Armenians in "Armenian Aryan" will confirm this. Did you see that one Armenian girl with the Star of David hanging around her neck. I suppose that she is "ges oo ges" like Kasparov and the College President son of Arlene Francis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artaxias Posted June 14, 2003 Report Share Posted June 14, 2003 Well I apologize if I accused you of something you didn't mean. Btw I didn't see the picture of the girl with Star of David? Everyone on this earth is mixed, the problem is you claim that ALL of us are of mixed heritage when only a minority is like yourself.If we follow your logic or lack thereof than race doesn't exist at all.I never said that there are no dark skinned Armenians with non-European features but they are in the minority and we will keep it that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepper Posted June 14, 2003 Report Share Posted June 14, 2003 well i'm mixed english armenian, and the armenian side is pretty dark. i probably come from more of a 'middle eastern armenian' stock in that sense, but still find the issue totally irrelevant. if you've got armenian blood in you, then your armenian. these sub genres are divisive and negative. artaxias, i cant help feeling your putting value judgements on whether your 'dark armenian, white armenian etc'. there is no armenian caste system, thankfully. there's enough hostility from other groups for armenians to live with, let alone from each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artaxias Posted June 14, 2003 Report Share Posted June 14, 2003 You people are the ones creating these labels 'dark Armenian', there's no such thing as 'dark Armenian'.When there is a bashkir,tatar or a pecheng calling himself Russian do you call him a 'dark Russian'. NO! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepper Posted June 14, 2003 Report Share Posted June 14, 2003 well there are armenians with 'dark' features, by that i mean non-european, myself possibily being an example. doesnt mean i'm not armenian though. but i feel we're going round in circles here. the fact that armenians have a variety in appearance means we have a large gene-pool, which is very healthy. if we had never mixed we'd be horribly inbred. those that have ever been to Wales will know what that looks like, and it's not pretty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted June 14, 2003 Report Share Posted June 14, 2003 ... if we had never mixed we'd be horribly inbred. those that have ever been to Wales will know what that looks like, and it's not pretty Don't forget the French Canadians!!! I think we are basically at the heart of the matter ... those who are advocating "purity", "preservation", "supremacy", etc etc are nothing but inbred hicks Spread the genes! Let's have more afro-armenian-chinese guys so they can be good in basketball, chess, and math all at the same time, not to mention having huge manly equipment to match their large noses Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artaxias Posted June 14, 2003 Report Share Posted June 14, 2003 That's why I have no problem with a multiethnic society as long as it's monoracial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted June 14, 2003 Report Share Posted June 14, 2003 The whole point is about disassociation and identity. The fact that within the Armenian genetic makeup there were foreign influences doesn't mean that Armenian people are mixed. Just the opposite. In many countries when it comes to Armenians, people say: "Oh you guys don't mix with others". The whole issue is much more perplexed, because we lost our statehood in 13 century and we are still struggling to have a decent state. Unfortunately, for many being Armenian (even for non-Armenians) became a good business. I witnessed myself people who were from the Middle East, and who claimed to be Armenian, because it is more comfortable to them rather than saying I'm Arab. Same is true for Hagarag. He can very well say: I'm Assory. Or turk. Or Anglo. But no, he chooses to be ARmenian. In California even turks with some very remote Armenian connection would say "I'm Armenian". Which is good. Now we need to teach them what is the meaning of being Armenian. To Hagarag: One thing I have refused to learn in my life is to be conformist. America is a country of conformists. If I survive, than the mission is possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted June 14, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2003 I KNOW exactly where my ancestors game from. My aunt spent a large sum to have our geneology traced. We knew that we were descended from the Giligian nobility, but we knew little else. For a minimal extra fee, the geneologist also threw in a study of my mother's family. So my ancestors hail from everywhere from the France/Germany to China, to what is presently Southern Iraq and yet I am 7/8 Armenian. This is probably the case for many more Armenians. There are few peoples on ths earth not of mixed blood, so lets throw out any discussion of race. Recent DNA studies showed that race is immaterial as an African tribe can be closer gentically to a Norse village than to the neighboring African tribe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted June 14, 2003 Report Share Posted June 14, 2003 ... America is a country of conformists. If I survive, than the mission is possible. Come again?! Was that supposed to be a sarcastic statement or were you actually serious? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted June 14, 2003 Report Share Posted June 14, 2003 ... America is a country of conformists. If I survive, than the mission is possible. Come again?! Was that supposed to be a sarcastic statement or were you actually serious? Feel free to interpret it as you wish! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted June 14, 2003 Report Share Posted June 14, 2003 Feel free to interpret it as you wish! As an Armenian-American, I was giong to do that anyway!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artaxias Posted June 14, 2003 Report Share Posted June 14, 2003 Gamavor, you're very smart.Your observations couldn't be more empyrical and sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted June 14, 2003 Report Share Posted June 14, 2003 I believe we have an Aryan/Indo-European origin. Our language is the proof of that. Another proof are numerous findings of swastica symbolism found in caves in the territory of Armenia. It is another question as to how much of that origin stayed intact - probably not much. Another question is - what does having Aryan origin imply for today? Typically, the word "Aryan" is associated with Nazis or white supremacists and it is viewed as a negative and racist thing. We all know the reason - pigs like Hitler and his associates perverted the true meaning of Aryanism and the significant Aryan symbol of swastica. Nowadays, this trend continues in the form of neo-nazi pigs and various supremacist imbeciles whose only preoccupation is hatred towards people of color and Jews. Artaxias: I am by far not a historian but I believe there is a lot of truth in what you say about culture and history, although I am afraid that you are often drifting towards racism. The Aryans and the nations who descended from Aryans are responsible for a huge amount of world civilization. But I wouldn't classify it just European civilization. Aryans have spread all over the world, and have moved so frequently back and forth and assimilated that it is probably impossible to track their movements and influences in the history. I don't believe that any nationality today is even remotely close in culture and gene pool to the early Aryans. And that is normal. In this sense, it makes no sense talking about keeping purity of the genes and things like that. The only acceptable way to say that, IMO, would be to give a humble advice to fellow Armenians to keep their cultural and ethnic heritage and language. If you say more than that, such as our race is this and that and we are white and should stay white, very few people will take it serously or friendly. Who has the right to dictate one who they should or should not marry? About the color: By visual comparison, it can be easily said that we Armenians are not white, we have mostly relatively dark and some white/blond types. But that has nothing to do with Armenianism. For example, I have black hair, relatively fair skin and a lot of hair all over my body. Who is to say that I am not Armenian, or pure Armenian? It would be ridiculous - a lot of Armenians are like that and even darker Blond Armenians are a minority. Cultural, racial and ethic diversity are natural and a good thing! Aryans are not the only race that have contributed to the world civilization. I am not at all sure that Africans, for example, have not given much culture. It is all relative, of course they also have culture. It is only us that do not accept and value it equally to white culture. Even if we assume that they have given little or nothing, so what does that mean? Do they have less rights or should they be separated from other races? I don't think so. If an Armenian wants to merry a black person, I don't see any problem in that, although I would wish that their children speak Armenia and keep Armenianness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted June 15, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2003 Artaxias, I never had any doubt that Gamavor was a "fellow-traveller" of yours. Speaking of meeting of the minds, neither of you would have to go far for a mental convergence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted June 15, 2003 Report Share Posted June 15, 2003 Artaxias, I never had any doubt that Gamavor was a "fellow-traveller" of yours. Speaking of meeting of the minds, neither of you would have to go far for a mental convergence. Mehmet, Is this an outburst of you liberal thoughts or just Middle Eastern fever? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted June 15, 2003 Report Share Posted June 15, 2003 THOTH if you are Middle Eastern rat that doesn't mean the rest of us, even the diasporans are. Not everyone is a Genocide survivor that was forced to live with savages in the Middle East. You are the minority, brainwashed by 100 years of life in the Middle East.Very little of Armenian is left in you...Because the normal Armenians who are well educated choose not to associate with your kind that does not mean that you are 'Armenians'. We don't eat pita, we don't eat humus and we don't eat any of that primitve food either. We don't listen to tribal arab music nor do look like your kind. Quit trying to make us look something we are not. How's it like being on a turkish payroll?People like you showed where Armenians live during the Genocide. You know very little truly - in general and particularly about me and my family. And of course now you are showing our racist superiority beliefs even further by putting down Armenians who live/have lived in the Middle East. They are not pure enough for you - they are "rats" and "savages" - yes we can all see you. And you canot hold a candle to these Armenians and what they have been through and how they have srtruggled to survive and to provide for their families and maintain their traditions. Compared to them you are a hollow nothing a wind bag in the true sense of the word FYI my family came from Istanbul and in the Sivas district. While my Grandfather - a Dashnak fighter at the age of 12 (after his entire family was slaughtered) and after a great many missions in defense of his people he was forced to flee briefly to Egypt - as the price upon his head grew to great to risk staying in Turkey - he quickly immigrated to the USA where he worked laying railroad track and in the Steel mills - never missing a single day of work his entire life. He continued to actively support the Dashnaks and their efforts (you may know of what I speak) after comming to this country - he was very active. And believe me - he could kill you with a word - you pitiful name calling exclusivisitc for no reason Nazi wimp. And my grandmother's side were very highly placed in the heiarchy of the Church in Istanbul - and my great grandparents (who in fact continued to live in Istanbul ands serve in this capacity until the late 1950s) - they used their position (and their wealth) to establish a series of safe houses and a network (underground railroad) to enable prominent Armenians that the Turks were after to evade capture and escape to Greece and ultimatley (many ended up comming to) the United States. Some families were kept hidden from the Turks for over one year - while still in Turkey - before their escape could be aranged. They were cared for and kept hidden by my family at considerable risk to themselves. And also FYI - my Grandmother was a soloist with a magnificant voice who was personally tutored by Gomidas and sang in his choir. We have pictures of her with him. And I personally attended a function many years back where decendents of survivors (including some very prominant Armenians here in the States) as well as some aged survivors whom my family had hidden and facilitated escape from Turkey were literally crying at and kissing my Grandmothers feet in thanks and gratitude - I have never personally witnessed anything so powerfully emotional ever in my life - except perhaps once - at the reading of a list of names of Parisian Jews at the spot where they were rounded up and assembled - boxcar by boxcar - to be shipped away to camps - a reading that comprised several days around the clock of names being read - and included the entire family of a dear friend who was just a boy and escaped... My point being - you have no right - not a single grain of anything to stand on to try to critisize and denigrate my family - about which you know nothing at all and against which you are a complete and utter nothing - Mr I think I am wonderful and superior to others supposed Armenian. It is I who claim that you are not one of us. We have no need for your kind - you who are made of the same stuff and who think in the same manner as those who caused us and our families so much sorrow. You are a disgrace to the concept of what it is to be Armenian. And you know nothing - nothing at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted June 15, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2003 Gamavor, It is called FMF, Familial Mediterranean Fever. The highest percentages of the gene for it are found among Armenians and Oriental (Middle East Origin Jews), approximately 20%,with much less percentages, approimately 5% of the population, found in Arabs and Anatolian Turks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted June 15, 2003 Report Share Posted June 15, 2003 Sasun - I can certainly agreee with your post and position. Sure - our language and culture and perhaps even genetics groups us with Aryans (as are Indians BTW., and Persians, etc)...and our culture has elements of both East and West...etc - but this is a far cry form what our little Armenian Hitler is advocating...look at his words - it is outright as well as containing many tells. I know - its a waste of time reading most of what he posts...but at least read enough to understand - this guy is a freak! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted June 15, 2003 Report Share Posted June 15, 2003 Gamavor, It is called FMF, Familial Mediterranean Fever. The highest percentages of the gene for it are found among Armenians and Oriental (Middle East Origin Jews), approximately 20%,with much less percentages, approimately 5% of the population, found in Arabs and Anatolian Turks. LOL - good one. Yes - I have this a bit. Doctors always worried about my low Iron count...and mosquitos consequently love me...easy drinking blood... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted June 15, 2003 Report Share Posted June 15, 2003 Which " Armenians " have the decease? You, Thoth another few.... how many? But we love you. You are integral part of our society. Without you we cannot outsmart the Jews. And we need you. We need your money, connections and liberal thoughts. Long live "Armenian"- Armenian unity!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted June 15, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2003 Bravo gamvor, Now lets get on with the business of righting the wrong done to our people. How much longer is Turkey going to play this charade of words with what happened 1915-1923?Are there insurance companies who have not paid deceased Turks families? Are there Turks who were dispossesed from ancestral lands? Perhaps a few in tiny Karabagh, but not the millions of Armenian, Greeks and Assyrian dispossesed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted June 15, 2003 Report Share Posted June 15, 2003 The wrong to your people was fixed in Niurnberg. The wrong to my people will be corrected when the time comes. Until then I need your money:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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