THOTH Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 (edited) "we don't know and we don't care" http://www.apatheticagnostic.com/ At the very least - for purposes of this dicussion - folks should check out the"Articles of Faith" http://www.apatheticagnostic.com/Church/faith.html Very much of the rest of this site is worthwhile as well BTW... Edited February 18, 2004 by THOTH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 http://www.jesusfreakin.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allarmeniangirl Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 http://www.jesusfreakin.com/ they made a game with Jesus??? i really don't like that idea. btw, did u guys know that one man found a way to prove that God exits? I 4got his name, but i'll try 2 find out. I saw it on the Russian news last year in November( I think). It's kind of hard 2 believe that there is proof but it doesn't matter to me much because I already believe in God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
den_wolf Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 I'm interested in finding out who this guy is. If you find out who he is and what his name is, do share, AllArmenianGirl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 Hmm what's that I hear? Matter cannot be created nor destroyed? So where does matter come from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sev-mard Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 Hmm what's that I hear? Matter cannot be created nor destroyed? So where does matter come from? Well the full statement is "Matter can not be created nor destroyed, it merely changes shape." is it not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gevo27 Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 Well the full statement is "Matter can not be created nor destroyed, it merely changes shape." is it not? well, merely changing shape is a part of it, infact the definition is even longer. but the main idea is, and which mouse was pointing out, Matter as we concieve of the subject, cannot be created. Such that we cant go intoa alab, and out of a vacumed sealed chamber, make a peice of metal perhaps. And, we cant revers that either, as in we cant put this metal in the vaccumed chamber, and make it vanish... But, saying that we can put a peice of metal in the chamber and chaning its physically or chemically, well thats not an issue at all... lol.. so mouse argument is sound, as in changing the form of matter, and creating/destroying it are different realms of classification.... only stating a part of the whole explanation in this case does not altar the whole idea or context of the definition.. But, for God exists... lol.. One thing, if the bible is right, and all the prophecies it has predicted will happen, and even the ones that are blindly disgarded, then will you beleive it. As in, in the last days when the antichrist comes out of his hole, and claims himself the new world nation, when Jeruselem builds the new temple, when all the weapons of mass destruction are under the control of the anti christ.. will you beleive God exists then?? Or even before all of that, when millions of people vanish from the face of the earth and no explanation for them.... will u then beleive??? how much prrof are you willing to ignore before you do?? Or, lets talk about the past... They have pictures of Noahs arc at some times of the least snow on mount ararat. they have dug down to it, the turks have blocke it off for centuries.. but people have gotten through... They have found anchient scrolls which were written before the bible ever existed in its entirety, which reveal the stories of the bible, by everyday common men... There have been 2 great world wars allready, which were predicted by the bible..what is a miracle??? Can natural selection and/or darwinism explain what a miracle is...??? common, as much as people dig into the words of the bible, and try to contradict it... it hasnt worked.. Why would people leave an easy life to live as a christian, where they are persecuted, spit on, made fun of etc...... Why would i not just go out and do whatever the hell i think is fun when there isnt a real truth in the universe... why?? if there is nothing greater than ourselves to judge us, then we cant even justify being "human" being "nice" to people... laws are nonsense... cause our judgment upon our own kind is meaningles, because it is reletive.... and more .. lol.. PHEW.. im tired... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sev-mard Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 I see it like this, imagine God as a parent. Your parents give birth to you, and guide you when you're young and hope that you do good, and become a solid citizen. But they can't/don't intervene and save you from every evil, nor are they totally responsible for all that you do. So I believe that a god can exist, despite the evil that men do. I feel sometimes like the universe was created as a puzzle and we people are given a chance at Life, also a chance to explore this great puzzle. I feel that God doesn't have much to do actually with what Men do, but I do see the wonders of said God in the planet itself, and the beauty of Life. All "religions" are man crafted in some sense, which isn't a condemnation, because that's all we 'really' have. Man has produced and fashioned the worl from his head(which can be God inspired). I may be rambling but in the end I believe that an understanding of self, brings one closer to god, worrying too much about ANY of these religions which divide, mislead, and many times condone murder in God's name is wrong. I have love and respect for deeply religous people, but fanatics and intolerants are not tolerated by me. I enjoy religion, and theology as a form of study and a method by which my mind can work, and commune on even a subconscious level with the All-mighty, but I don't force anything I believe on anyone. Signed Truly Yours The Agnostic Apostle Fanatically Devoted to Being Open Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 So where does matter itself come from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted February 21, 2004 Report Share Posted February 21, 2004 (edited) I'm interested in finding out who this guy is. If you find out who he is and what his name is, do share, AllArmenianGirl. I heard that story as well... it isn't a "prove" on the proper sense of the term. No one can "prove" or "disprove" the existance of a God alone... in an underterministic world, claiming its existance is as wrong as claiming its non-existance, because either of those two choices reject the other reality which is still an existance. Edited February 21, 2004 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gevo27 Posted February 21, 2004 Report Share Posted February 21, 2004 I see it like this, imagine God as a parent. Your parents give birth to you, and guide you when you're young and hope that you do good, and become a solid citizen. But they can't/don't intervene and save you from every evil, nor are they totally responsible for all that you do. So I believe that a god can exist, despite the evil that men do. I feel sometimes like the universe was created as a puzzle and we people are given a chance at Life, also a chance to explore this great puzzle. I feel that God doesn't have much to do actually with what Men do, but I do see the wonders of said God in the planet itself, and the beauty of Life. All "religions" are man crafted in some sense, which isn't a condemnation, because that's all we 'really' have. Man has produced and fashioned the worl from his head(which can be God inspired). I may be rambling but in the end I believe that an understanding of self, brings one closer to god, worrying too much about ANY of these religions which divide, mislead, and many times condone murder in God's name is wrong. I have love and respect for deeply religous people, but fanatics and intolerants are not tolerated by me. I enjoy religion, and theology as a form of study and a method by which my mind can work, and commune on even a subconscious level with the All-mighty, but I don't force anything I believe on anyone. Signed Truly Yours The Agnostic Apostle Fanatically Devoted to Being Open interesting, and i like the way you put it sev jan.. ayo.. I agree to your comparison... makes perfect sense... And, well forcing ones religion on another person, and talking about it in a fasion where others may be offended i dont think are the same.. lol.. If maybe what i said people take offense from, then that strenghtens my case even more.. lol. but in no way will i force someone to beleiv in the same things i do. that doesnt make any sense.. its like my family and friends trying to force me to eat olives... i cant eat the dang things.. nomatter who holds a gun to my face.. and if i was threatened into eating one. will i enjoy it? so.. no.. lol.. i also dont see why we need to "force" ones religion on another person. nothing by force is by love. and love is the whole point of the Bible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted February 21, 2004 Report Share Posted February 21, 2004 I see it like this, imagine God as a parent. Your parents give birth to you, and guide you when you're young and hope that you do good, and become a solid citizen. But they can't/don't intervene and save you from every evil, nor are they totally responsible for all that you do. So I believe that a god can exist, despite the evil that men do. I feel sometimes like the universe was created as a puzzle and we people are given a chance at Life, also a chance to explore this great puzzle. I feel that God doesn't have much to do actually with what Men do, but I do see the wonders of said God in the planet itself, and the beauty of Life. All "religions" are man crafted in some sense, which isn't a condemnation, because that's all we 'really' have. Man has produced and fashioned the worl from his head(which can be God inspired). I may be rambling but in the end I believe that an understanding of self, brings one closer to god, worrying too much about ANY of these religions which divide, mislead, and many times condone murder in God's name is wrong. I have love and respect for deeply religous people, but fanatics and intolerants are not tolerated by me. I enjoy religion, and theology as a form of study and a method by which my mind can work, and commune on even a subconscious level with the All-mighty, but I don't force anything I believe on anyone. Signed Truly Yours The Agnostic Apostle Fanatically Devoted to Being Open You are a good person Sev-Mart. I grant you a place in Domino Heaven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
den_wolf Posted February 21, 2004 Report Share Posted February 21, 2004 I heard that story as well... it isn't a "prove" on the proper sense of the term. No one can "prove" or "disprove" the existance of a God alone... in an underterministic world, claiming its existance is as wrong as claiming its non-existance, because either of those two choices reject the other reality which is still an existance. You're right, Domino. But things might change, and I wouldn't say it's impossible to prove that God exists or doesn't exist. That we didn't know the fundamental laws of gravity didn't mean that there were none. So Sir Isaac Newton discovered them. Same for the issue of God. But as it is now, you're right, we can't prove or disprove the existence of God. Hence why it's only a matter of faith, and that cannot be further used to prove other things. This goes all the way back to my argument in the Spinoza thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armat Posted February 21, 2004 Report Share Posted February 21, 2004 (edited) Faith is correct to each individual obviously for otherwise they wouldn't have had faith to begin with, thus something must be correct for them. I agree, forthermore faith is extremely personal matter and even discusing it seems unnatural to me. Edited February 21, 2004 by Armat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted February 21, 2004 Report Share Posted February 21, 2004 You're right, Domino. But things might change, and I wouldn't say it's impossible to prove that God exists or doesn't exist. That we didn't know the fundamental laws of gravity didn't mean that there were none. So Sir Isaac Newton discovered them. Same for the issue of God. But as it is now, you're right, we can't prove or disprove the existence of God. Hence why it's only a matter of faith, and that cannot be further used to prove other things. This goes all the way back to my argument in the Spinoza thread. Actually, it isn't that easy Den_, if you go further on the history of this forum, and read my theories regarding underterminism, you shall see why I believe that "proving" anything outside of the mathematical realm is impossible... anything other than mathematical reality exist, if they were to not exist, we could not concieve them... Gravity exist, because we live in the universe where Gravity exist... we accept the possibility of gravity, and we observe it as it... in future Gravity may not exist... if we asearch the non-existance of gravity one day we may find it, and by this way, gravity will no longer exist. What I am trying to tell you, is that in the past, the world was flat, now it is round, and in future it may be any other forms... we build our universe by deciding in which one we live... we observe what we want to observe, we discover because we search something and we expect to find... For the one that believe really in God, for him God exist, and do really exist for him, he will observe real things that for him will be undeniable evidences, this reality does exist, if it were to not exist, this person could possibly not believe of the existance of a God, for the one that does not believe in a God, in his own universe the possibility of a God does not exist. Everything is undeterminated, we live in the universe we want to live in... us observers build our own universes... everything exist... the existance of a God exist, so as its non-existance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted February 21, 2004 Report Share Posted February 21, 2004 (edited) I agree, forthermore faith is extremely personal matter and even discusing it seems unnatural to me. Not only Faith is a personal matter, but faith is the hand(or brush) of conscienceness... faith is what permit us to build our universe, without it, there is no reality. You have faith of what you see, in fact, it is your faith that build what is your reality. There is no one, there is no living species that do not have a trace of faith in him... I will go as far as saying, that faith is everything... there is the observer, Faith, and then, there is everything else. Faith is the tool, by which conscienceness build reality. Conscienceness choose the reality in which we want to live... and faith as the hand and brush of conscienceness... paint this reality. Edited February 21, 2004 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
den_wolf Posted February 21, 2004 Report Share Posted February 21, 2004 (edited) Interesting points, Domino. What I am trying to tell you, is that in the past, the world was flat, now it is round, and in future it may be any other forms... we build our universe by deciding in which one we live... we observe what we want to observe, we discover because we search something and we expect to find... The world was flat because they believed so. The world now is round because we have observed it. Can you say that it's only a matter of faith that the earth is round? I'm not so sure about that... Edited February 21, 2004 by den_wolf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armat Posted February 21, 2004 Report Share Posted February 21, 2004 Not only Faith is a personal matter, but faith is the hand(or brush) of conscienceness... faith is what permit us to build our universe, without it, there is no reality. You have faith of what you see, in fact, it is your faith that build what is your reality. There is no one, there is no living species that do not have a trace of faith in him... I will go as far as saying, that faith is everything... there is the observer, Faith, and then, there is everything else. Faith is the tool, by which conscienceness build reality. Conscienceness choose the reality in which we want to live... and faith as the hand and brush of conscienceness... paint this reality. Domino jan,what can I say.You made my night.I am going through serious personnal low point in my life and I do believe that I am more then the flesh or even the intelect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted February 21, 2004 Report Share Posted February 21, 2004 (edited) Interesting points, Domino. What I am trying to tell you, is that in the past, the world was flat, now it is round, and in future it may be any other forms... we build our universe by deciding in which one we live... we observe what we want to observe, we discover because we search something and we expect to find... The world was flat because they believed so. The world now is round because we have observed it. Can you say that it's only a matter of faith that the earth is round? I'm not so sure about that... You see Den_, if I ask you to prove that Earth was not flat in the past, what you will do is to observe the present and search the traces of the past from this present and come up with evidences to try to prove that this past Earth was round. But this in the proper sense of the term, is not a "prove." You do believe that Earth is round. Let me give you an example, the one I like the most. I consider light consisted of particules, I will be using tools which will "prove" that it is consisted of particules, those tools which I will be building, will be build to measure this reality... And finally, I will be concluding that Photons are in fact particules and therefore light are composed of particules... Now, is a Photon a particule? Yes! It is, I have measured it, is it a non-particule? No! Because I have measured it to be a particule... Now, later on after years, another person come and build another tool which could measure if light is a wave, and if Photons are just Quantas, quantities of something, with a determinated lamda etc... for a given light color... after the measurement, light will be acting not as a particule but as waves... Conclusion? That light is a non-particule, and is in fact a wave... And? Depending what you search, you will find... and depending what you do search, you will build a tool... if you do not know of the existance of something, you will hardly build something which will detect it... You have absolutly no "prove" that in the past, Earth was in fact not flat, what you have are evidences recorded in the present, of the past... but past, present and future all three are not static... as the observer, you modify not only the present and the future, but as well the past. i know that sound hard to buy, but i am sure, more you will read me, more you will see why this vision of reality is the most plausible one. Can this be "proved" ? hmmm... I am ready to provide you the evidences, and let you decide by yourself. (you can refer to my 7 Certainties principle, as the only tools to "prove" anything outside of the realm of mathematic ) In the past, people had Faith of the flatness of the Earth, those people were part of the Earth, part of the then Universe... for them, this Earth was flat, now you, observing this past, you are changing it, you have just changed their Universe and made it round... if there is no observer, there is no observed, if there is no observer neither an observed, there is no such reality... if there is none, this Roundness of that past Earth, was noneexisting... the universe exist by the interaction between the observer and the observed... there was no observer of a Round Universe, there was therefor, no round universe... now in present... by your observation of this present, you have modified their past... and now by modifying it you have chosen the past of this present. Edited February 21, 2004 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted February 21, 2004 Report Share Posted February 21, 2004 (edited) Domino jan,what can I say.You made my night.I am going through serious personnal low point in my life and I do believe that I am more then the flesh or even the intelect. You are the wise artist Armat, and a classic true artist, those under instinction. The kind of artist, which when he start his work, has no idea how it will end up, ... but manage to always finish it by making of it a masterpiece. You know, one of the reasons why I stick always on this forum, and time after time return here as my home is because of people like you, there really are rare people here. Edited February 21, 2004 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armat Posted February 21, 2004 Report Share Posted February 21, 2004 if there is none, this Roundness of that past Earth, was noneexisting... the universe exist by the interaction between the observer and the observed... there was no observer of a Round Universe, there was therefor, no round universe... now in present... by your observation of this present, you have modified their past... and now by modifying it you have chosen the past of this present. Question now begs is -Is there an objective universe without the observer? And my answer is resolutely Yes. Universe exist weather or not we existed or not. It is slightly paradoxical since if there was no humanity how would we know the existence of the universe in the first place but perhaps the science is what it trying to be- objective reasoning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armat Posted February 21, 2004 Report Share Posted February 21, 2004 You are the wise artist Armat, and a classic true artist, those under instinction. The kind of artist, which when he start his work, has no idea how it will end up, ... but manage to always finish it by making of it a masterpiece. You know, one of the reasons why I stick always on this forum, and time after time return here as my home is because of people like you, there really are rare people here. If you have any problem you want to discuss about, just PM me I will put you right on the track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted February 21, 2004 Report Share Posted February 21, 2004 Question now begs is -Is there an objective universe without the observer? And my answer is resolutely Yes. Universe exist weather or not we existed or not. It is slightly paradoxical since if there was no humanity how would we know the existence of the universe in the first place but perhaps the science is what it trying to be- objective reasoning. Armat, this is a paradox! Can there be an observed without an observer? Or better, which one came first, the observed or the observer... irrelevent? No! Let present my Principle of the "All is God Paradox." (I invented that one during a discussion with Sasun ) Suppose that there is a God, only a God, and that there is nothing other than God... Will God be self-aware? If there is nothing but God, there is nothing to be observed... the observer which is God will have nothing to observe... but if in fact, this observer which is God has nothing to observe, he could possibly not be an observer, since to be an observer, you supposes that there is something to observe. Therefor, in order for God to exist, and only to exist alone, it should be an observer and an observed... as a result, God will be self-aware... because if there is nothing to observe, God will be aware of what? Of him? OK of him, if he is aware of him, that will make himself an observed... Now let translate that to humanity... What you observe, everything you observe is in your brain, but where is the observer? The mind is the observer, the brain is the observed... everything you observe is recorded in your brain, and the mind observe this brain, and the interaction between the physical and metaphysical(mind) realities creat self-awarness. Now, comming to the universe. You observe this universe... but this universe you observe is yours, it is not the exact same as mine, for the reason that your mind and your brain are not the same as mine... so my reality and yours is not the same. --- Now, can you separate the observer from the observed? YOU CAN NOT!!! which means, no observer, no universe... scientists are observers, they can not prove that the universe can exist without us observers... what they can try to prove is that observers can influence reality, if they can prove that, it would mean... no observer no universe... and I am convinced that this will be proved one day, it is my strongest conviction, an intuition I have, and I believe that it may even happen in my life time. Have I said prove? Me the same one that said that only in mathematic we can prove? I think this cases is exeption, and woth an entire topic alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted February 21, 2004 Report Share Posted February 21, 2004 BTW Den_ Feel free to include any of my brain stormings in your philosophical essays, as I do not place any intellectual properties on what I write. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armat Posted February 21, 2004 Report Share Posted February 21, 2004 Domino and others here is something unusual happened recently to my wife.She is a fine Artist (I met her in the Gallery where we both exihibited) She was working on a perticular painting and she did not like the center image which was a male figure and upon erasing the image to her shock this came out!She claims she did not alter anything except erase the first image which was a totally different image.Here it is.Now it hangs in my living room as it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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