religion repression

[Guest]

Mr Berj and Mr MJ

you shouldn't shout at me!

 

If you care about this, yes I am not Armenian, nor belong to any other neigbours of the Armenians, however my wife is Iranian Armenian. But aside that let's say the northern part of the middle East has been subject of my study. this is non Arabic part of the middle east and Central Asia, So Mr Berj please do not teach me history. What you may have learned or read are certainly biased, I am not going into detail about the sasanian history. PS. That country that you hate so much, Iran is the one and only neigbour of Armenia which keeps his borders open to Armenia, and doesn't block Armenia the way that either Turkey, Azerbaijan or the way Georgia does. Many investments in Armenia are Iranian and of course you know that Iran along with Russia is the main supporter, (financially and miltary) of Armenia, and this goes on the account of the Iranian and Russian working class' tax payments. people who you hate but have done nothing to you except being robbed by their governemnt for supporting you by the heavey taxes on their modest salaries. Mr, Berj and Mj!

 

Yours style of argumentation is indeed similar to that of the Turks, because some Armenians , in the earlier times have collaborated with the Russians, we were right to commit genocid on them, so inthis style you say because some Muslims have ruled Armenia by violentmeans, itr is right that we Armenians do not respect our moslem neigbours or minorities. You better than everybody else feels that it is nonesence the style you write in.

 

And beside that the sasanids were not moslims at all, they were predomnantly zoroastrian with big Christian communities. But your point was that you saw tthe policies of the Sasanid empire detrimental to the Armenian interests? Well I see also the policies of the Romans towds the Iberian peninsula detrimental for Spain today, so by the same logic I should say I hate the Italians?

 

Another thing you said was that when the Kurds were demonstrating in Armenian, you thought that you were not walking in Armenia?

As you know they were demostrating against Turkey, and the Armenian government knew it was in the benefit of Armenia, so why is that that bad. Beside that in Paris and Brussel the Armenians have commemorated the Genocide, and I was at one of such meetings, but no one had the impression that that we were sitting in Armenia.

 

So by this my friend, you know that I indeed don't deny the Armenian genocid, and indeed this is one of the historical issues on which I am involved at.

 

So mr. By this I wanted to say, I am very sorry that no civilized discussion has been possible here. everytime people say something you 2 don't like he/she should get quit, this does not make sence at all, i think that the Armenians like any other nation have the right of democratic environment and free expression and free information.

 

Thanks a lot for your valuable time.

 

Bye Bye

[nairakev]

Berj,

What emotional effects? That's what we are trying to avoid here, especially in these kind of threads, to get at least some tiny emotionless results. Keep you adrenaline in control.

This line you pulled out of its context and after all it wasn't adressed to you neither anyone participating in this thread.

 

...emotionless results

It means nothing... Emotionless? I don't know such a thing.

 

That sentence was a continuation of a thought elaborated in the paragraph ahead and was ment to approve mutually beneficial BUT EQUAL relations between Armenia and Iran.

 

Where do you think you are? In the United Nations? This is a forum for people who represent a variety of backgrounds and nationalities. Not a universal assembley of decision-makers.

 

You talk about history without any approach of a science. You live like what happened in the past does something to do with reality.

Pathetic?

 

[ June 09, 2001: Message edited by: naira ]

[Guest]

Berj: Tornado, if you want to be friends, as I suppose, help or stay away

 

Dear Naira

 

i don't become upset if someone disgrees with me, but it seems that there are authoritarian minded people here who try to figurely "murder"anyone who disagrees with them.

 

Mj,

 

I think I have not to bring more arguments about what I say, because I already did, the discussion began about if the Christians were suppressing moslems or otherwise and I gave a nuancing response, not taking sides. But there after mr Berj came with his Chauvenistic autoritarian approach.

 

I have a lot of documents which i can post it here, but I wont beacuse it may suggest that I am anti-Armenian. i know your thrick mr. MJ.

 

Berj:

I think your notion of equality means ignorance. You really hate Iranians, I should say this that all the Iranians I have met were quite civilized people, and especially Armenians of Iran are quite peacefull people, and you see that they don't come here to avoid further troubles here, after you banned Farsisteve/halfbreed and Iranyar so unfair. I guess this is why some people are upset with me, because I am in good relations with Iranyar, Halfbreed,Farsisteve, Captain piruz, Hakob, Garen Mamigonian, Armin minassian, Arya shahin, Shahin daryani and other people in the cyberiran who are on your black list.

 

And to you all , despite the fact that my wife is Armenian from iran I am not an ambassador of anybody here. I just came here because I believed there were no problems and we could be friends.

 

As my personnal opinion regarding Iran Armenia relationship: I hope that the majority of the armenians don't take such a chauvenistic and hating attitude (under the name of equality) towards Iranians. If yes, I would suggest the Iranian authorities to stop support Armenia with weapons and financial means and follow the policy of other neigbours of Armenia. This way may USA and Israel and Turkey gradually change their negative attitude towards Iran. eventually Iran as a strong pro-armenian state can invest more mony and means in supporting the Armenian community of Iran itself and eventually absorb Armenian diaspora into it's ancient Armenian community, this way they'll make an alternative Armenia, to counterbalance the chauvenists. But I guess it's not necessary as the majority of the armenians I know are not so biased and chauvenist as a few people in this or other forums.

[Guest]

For MJ and Berj:

 

for more info take a look at http://www.yezidi.org

 

this is the official yezidi site, it is not biased against Armenia, because it reports also human rights abuses in Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Georgia. especially the human rights reports from Georgia was shocking; that such a small community in Georgia has been victim of murder and rape by the big Christian Georgian militant groups. This a fact that shows that the Christians are not necessarily better than towards their minorities than the moslems.

In this case it is a shamefull note that such a small community like Yezidi's is victim of harrassments by both moslem and christian political and paramilitary groups.

and don't tell me that these reports are biased , because as I said these reports are not only about the situation is Armenia but in all countries. secondly these reports usually are strenghtened by legal documentsand observations from the human rights organisation.

In these month is only one report from Armenia from a writer. But in the last editions there were reports from UNESCO and PAX Christi international, too.

[MJ]

Young man, you need some calibration of your state of mind.

[MJ]

I post the materials of the "Yezidi Writer" so that the members would know what is our "European Scholar" talking about. The article is not even signed.

 

I would not waist my time commenting on it. Would just claim that in my view, he is a similar slendering tug as the author of this article, which is not a reprt by any Human Rights organization, anyway.

 

"The situation of the Yezidis in Armenia

 

 

 

I am a captive in my own counrty also.

By a yezidi author

 

I am a Kurdish writer. I am from Armenia and I am a Yezidi. I left my country for exile (Germany) to escape the oppression by the Armenian state and the nationalist gangs that were established by the state. I believe that no one in this country knows well the situation of the Yezidis. It seems that people who work for the immigration office do not distinguish Yezidis from the Armenians.

 

With the reforms and reorganizations of the 1980s that took place within the framework of prestroika of Gorbachov, many nationalistic and reactionary movement emerged. Comical and hard core reactionary parties took reign of power from the progressive and democratically minded people. In the war for the mountainous region of Artsax, armed groups and the regional government decided that no one else but only Armenians would live in the region. They forced other inhabitants such as Azerbaijanies, Kurds, Belorussians, and Assyrians out of the area. Those who were expelled from the area are now scattered all over the world. The Armenians aimed at keeping the country only for themselves. Within two years, the Armenians expelled hundreds of thousands of non -Armenian people from Armenia. That is why the world community and other countries heard about this.

 

To implement their plans, in cities and villages, everyday the racist colonialists would direct their arrows of poison toward minority nations. Everywhere they established armed militants (Fedayee). They had hatred for non - Armenians. Who were these Fedayees , one wonders? In our opinion which reflects the reality, they were thieves, murderers and crooks. They had a dark past and accomplished nothing worthwhile. Although they got arrested a few times, each time they were out, these armed thugs insulted the minorities. Their job was like that of a wolf, to attack the herd of sheep without a shepherd. It seemed that these aggressors were not going to stop there. Then, the gangs and armed bandits took over the public spaces and intensified their hatred and aggression.

 

With the help of the state, they would attack military and police stations to confiscate arms and ammunition. They did a lot of cruelty to peaceful and innocent people. They burned the homes of the innocent and wrote on the doors: "Runaway, go; otherwise it will be your end." They robbed a lot of people, confiscated their land and property by force, took away their machinery. And the people could not defend themselves and their rights.

 

Beatings, verbal abuse and other unpleasantries became the norm. And the Yezidies got their share of this treatment. In the city of Yerevan, a Yezidi Kurd named Alik Hasanyan was arrested and in front of thousands of people was burned alive. He was charged withkilling an Armenian girl and a boy. Later on it became evident that he was not the killer. He had absolutely nothing to do with the killings. Another Yezidi from the Artashat region was gunned down in broad daylight for no reason. Their hatred and aggression went beyond cold - blooded murder. As it is evident from President Levon Ter Petrosyan's speech at the Congress of the Fedayeen in 1993 , "this organization and its armed militants cleaned the country from non - Armenians" He implied that the armed militants of the HHS [an Armenian party] accomplished this sacred duty. Fearing these gangs and their leader, lots of people abandoned their homes and moved to other countries and cities.

 

At present time, one can say that 98 % of the population of Armenia consists of Armenians. There are very few Yezidies left in Armenia and they are very old and very poor who are unable to move away. They lost their savings and wealth of hundreds of years. Internaitonal human rights organizations and the world public opinion do not know these atrocities. Maybe these atrocities were not newsworthy since the world was mesmerized by the war between the Azeries and Armenians and the Artsax issue or the collapse of the Soviet Union. Outsiders came to believe that most non - Armenians left the area for economic reasons, not due to the oppression and cruelty of the Armenian state.

 

Despite much cruelty and oppression, Armenia has become a member of a few democratic organizations and is striving to become a member to the Council of the European Union. And the Kurds have no rights there.

 

Thousands of people escaped to Russia without knowing what awaits them there in the future. Will Russia refuse them asylum and throw them out? This would not be surprising. There is a very dirty propaganda against the Kurdish people. Both intellectuals and ignoramuses, the good and the bad all work against the Kurds and make them the target of their poisoned arrows. The Kurds have very little to rely on and are without a nest. Even though the Kurds of Armenia, including the Yezidis and non - Yezidis number no more than 60 thousand soul, Armenian authorities are afraid that the Kurds might establish a Kurdistan on the soil of Armenia.

 

Authorities claim that Kurds are supporters of Turkey and are after snatching away part of Armenia as Kurdistan. Such false claims mobilized a lot of Armenians and instilled hatred in their hearts toward the Kurds in Armenia. A few Armenians who were not beguiled by these lies, were treated as enemies and servants. There came a time when neighbors became the enemy of neighbors. The most disgusting attempt was the one that aimed to separate the Yezidies from the Kurds. They claimed that "Yezidies were not Kurds. Yezidies were a people onto themselves and had no relations with the Kurds." During the census in Armenia, they undercounted the Yezidies. They claimed that Yezidi writers and intellectuals were to be blamed for this lack of delineation because they failed to separate the Yezidies from the Kurds. We assert that such lies have no foundation, no truth value. We stress that Yezidies are the fountainhead of Kurdishness, they are the real Kurds. It is true that the Yezidi religion is no more wide spread among the Kurds, but we surely are Kurds. Kurdish intellectuals, Yezidi and non - Yezidi, denounced such views. Many Yezidies left their homeland after such aggression. And are still doing so in droves. Our people were very desperate and scattered in haste to the old Soviet Republics. Now, a brother does not know where his other brother is. From whatever angle one looks at it, our people have become refugees without shelter and rights.

 

The retirees who worked for more than forty years, have lost their pensions. The Armenians are forcing them to leave the country. The Armenians are telling them: "Go to your own homeland!!" Well, one has to ask as to where the Yezidi homeland is? We believe that no one sees the dire situation of the Yezidies. There are two faces of the Armenian state: With one face, it wants to expel the non - Armenian population out of Armenia, with the other face, it wants to claim to the world that "Armenia is a democratic republic and everyone living in it is equal. The Yezidies are free and they have a good time there. Those who escape out of Armenia do so out of economic desperation, not due to oppression."

 

We wish to tear down this curtain that hides this shame and let the whole world see the true face of Armenia. Yezidies are not employed by the state. Before the fall of the Soviets, the Yezidies in rural areas used to work in the Kolkhozes. They were peasants there. Today, those Kolkhozes are long gone. Yezidies in towns used to work as street sweepers. Today, even such professions are denied to them. If the trend continues like this, the Yezidies are going to vanish from Armenia and from the face of the earth. If this ancient culture/teaching disappears, it will be due to the deeds of the Armenian state. Out of desperation, sometimes Yezidies of Armenia even dare to escape to the Turkish side of the border where the Kurds are slated for elimination. The Yezidies are afraid to let the world know what is happening to them. They are afraid to say that Kurdish is their mother tongue and that they are denied all rights in Armenia. Even at times the world lent an ear to their plight, many Yezidies say that they were free in Armenia and denied any claims of oppressed in Armenia. You could guess why.

 

The rights that the Soviet Union recognized for the Kurds in 1930s are rescinded. We had a newspaper called "Riya Taze" (the new path), research institutes, education in Kurdish language. Today we have none of these.

 

Everything is under the control of the armed bandits. The Armenian state is waging a very dirty war against Kurdish intellectuals through nationalist organizations like PYUNIK, HINCHAK, HAYASTANI and LIRAGIR. The state sees Kurdish intellectuals as servants, hands and tails of outside agents that are bent to harm Armenia.

 

Many Kurdish intellectuals were put on trial for saying "Yezidies are Kurds." And the courts would sentence these Kurdish intellectuals. Despite the fact that Kurdish intellectuals defended the brotherhood of both Kurds and Armenians, still these Armenian organizations went against the Kurds. A Yezidi academic, Prof. Dr. Sihide Ibo got killed in the hands of such aggressors and criminals. None of the killers are found and brought to trial. They threw Dr. Dewreshian under a car and ran him over. The body of Hesen Abbasian was dumped at the outskirts of Yerevan a month after. The majority of the intellectuals then left Armenia. This, in summary, is the situation of the Yezidies in Armenia.

 

Translated by Burhan Elturan "

[Guest]

honorable scholar mr. Mj

 

I have made a new thred on the issue, and as you see the situation in all countries, and the Armenian response to it is dicussed, without my own judgement. So i would appreciate if you change your slanderingtone. And still I am not convinced that you are not biased against some ex-members of this forum and also me.

 

[ June 09, 2001: Message edited by: Tornado ]

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MJ:


Young man, you need some calibration of your state of mind.

---

Mr MJ how you know I am a young man?
btw your tone is very offending, i am not that childish to respond you in the same way.

[nairakev]

Murder? LOL... Tornado, you're exagerating! Really! Murdered people do not talk the way you do... Stand for your statements yourself. As we all do. If there is someone trying to shut you up! Then tell them to go and have some *** elsewhere... That's what I do!

[ June 09, 2001: Message edited by: naira ]

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by naira:

Murder? LOL... Tornado, you're exagerating! Really! Murdered people do not talk the way you do... Stand for your statements yourself. As we all do. If there is someone trying to shut you up! Then tell them to go and have some *** elsewhere... That's what I do!

[ June 09, 2001: Message edited by: naira ]

---

well figurely this was aimed to be murder, at least murder of democracy and pluralism in a small scale :

[Paul bunyan]

MJ semantics aside Armenia IS a Christian country its core of culture is derived from Christianity althoughl

very few men ever go to church Christianity strongly influenced the morals and values of the nation they are much more moral and virtuous than

most especially the so called "Christian neighbor" to the north

georgia all virtue, moral excellence

all come from the same source GOD

Armenia wasn't the first Christian nation for nothing!

[MJ]

Dear Paul,

 

The Christianity in Armenia is more of a declarative phenomenon than real.

 

I think we have to distinguish two understandings of the term Culture. As far as the Armenian Cultural-Intellectual-Philosophical thought is concerned, yes, indeed it is built on Christian foundations.

 

However, if we think of it as a way of living and dealing with the everyday issues of life, Armenian culture is more of a mix of pagan and Islamic cultures – more pagan in Armenia, and more Islamic in Diaspora.

 

And I don’t put to much stock in this notion of Armenia being the first Christian nation, btw.

 

[ June 09, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

[Paul bunyan]

MJ, islamic in disaspora how?

if the Armenian people ever wise up and do what the goverment should do but won't repeal the anti-Protestant,

anti-Catholic fascist laws they would get Christians from Iran Iraq and other oppressive regions and from America to replace those many who have left Armenia the future of Armenia rests on their shoulders

[Paul bunyan]

Tornado, regarding post# 89

please tell us how Iran helps out Armenia militarily if you will.

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Paul bunyan:
Tornado, regarding post# 89
please tell us how Iran helps out Armenia militarily if you will.

---

For this you can visit some baku websites to understand. They talk about a bridge Iran made for the Armenian rebels. Also the Americans made this allegation that the armenian rebels have their training camps in northern Iran (In the region called Azerbaijan!) and are trained by the Iranian revolutionary gaurds, and are supplied with weapons from Iran. Also according to some Armenians I talked about some tactics which the Armenian rebels use, resemble that of the Iranian irregular army used in the war with Iraq.

about the cultural issue: Armenia as well as all it's neigbours has a culture which is consisted of the local elements, Zoroastrian elements, and christian lelements. However I should ask myself how Islamic or christian values make a culture, if the local and zoroastrian morality is exactly the same as what the Christian or Islamic should be. But christianity has had influences in the old non-secular Armenian legal system and also in the material constructs like buildings of churches and monasteries.

[MJ]

Paul, I have to admit that statement of mine was wrong by being too generalizing, and I apologize for it. The correct statement would be that a very significant part of Armenian Diaspora, actually, the population of Armenia, too, have significant Islamic elements in their everyday life.

As to the anti-protestant and anti-catholic laws in Armenia, I don't know anything about it, I don't thing there are such laws in Armenia, and I don't thing the abolishment of those (non-existing as I claimed) laws can in any way promote flow of Armenians to Armenia. I think that flow may be guaranteed only through economic development of Armenia.

[MJ]

Tornado,

 

Isn’t it time that you stop making allegations for which you cannot stand?

First of all, please refer us to the American source, which claims that Armenian “rebels” have had training camps in Northern Iran. Second, give us a rationale as how and why on the earth Armenians would’ve needed training camps in Iran – especially in the Azerbaijani province of Iran?

 

Can you also illuminate us which tactics of Armenian “rebels” (and I resent the usage of the term “rebels,” since Armenians of Karabagh have not “rebelled,” but have rather engaged in National Liberation straggle) have been similar to those of the Iranian irregular army? Also, is it possible that all irregular Armies have share common elements and tactics?

 

Third, it is well established, and there is no secret about the fact that both Armenian and Azerbaijani sides have been armed by Russian arms, and some of the officers of Armenian Army have been trained, naturally, in the former Soviet Military. The absolute majority of the Armenian officers and solders have been trained in action in the fields of battles.

 

Finally, what was this you were saying about the Culture? Could you articulate your thoughts more clearly?

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MJ:
Tornado,

Isn’t it time that you stop making allegations for which you cannot stand?
First of all, please refer us to the American source, which claims that Armenian “rebels” have had training camps in Northern Iran. Second, give us a rationale as how and why on the earth Armenians would’ve needed training camps in Iran – especially in the Azerbaijani province of Iran?

Can you also illuminate us which tactics of Armenian “rebels” (and I resent the usage of the term “rebels,” since Armenians of Karabagh have not “rebelled,” but have rather engaged in National Liberation straggle) have been similar to those of the Iranian irregular army? Also, is it possible that all irregular Armies have share common elements and tactics?

Third, it is well established, and there is no secret about the fact that both Armenian and Azerbaijani sides have been armed by Russian arms, and some of the officers of Armenian Army have been trained, naturally, in the former Soviet Military. The absolute majority of the Armenian officers and solders have been trained in action in the fields of battles.

Finally, what was this you were saying about the Culture? Could you articulate your thoughts more clearly?

---

You have to read the archives of the American military reports during 1992 and 1993.

And can you tell me what is the ratinal of the Turkish military officers being trained in Israel? The same ratinals go to the Armenians being traind in Iran, even more that it is geografically more closed. If you know geography you may know that attacking from south has been efficient when the azeri forces were observing and strenthening themselves in the west front.

What I said about culture was clear enough.

[MJ]

Young man,

 

I don't need to read the American Military Archives.

 

To the contrary, if you are making allegations, and you expect credibility, it is your duty to support whatever you allege, when requested.

 

And, so far, I haven't come across one clear statement from you.

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MJ:
Young man,

I don't need to read the American Military Archives.

To the contrary, if you are making allegations, and you expect credibility, it is your duty to support whatever you allege, when requested.

And, so far, I haven't come across one clear statement from you.

---

Did I did allegations young/old man? I can't still understand your tactics, you ask something when i give answer where you can find the source, you say I don't need it. Well this way no one can achieve a fruitfull discussion. Talking about ethical; it is also contrary the ethics of conversation

[ June 10, 2001: Message edited by: Tornado ]

[MJ]

And refusing to provid evidence for your own allegations is frutfull?

 

And did you think that you would come to this forum, spread slenders and unfounded accusations, and expect respectful attitude towards you?

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MJ:
And refusing to provid evidence for your own allegations is frutfull?

And did you think that you would come to this forum, spread slenders and unfounded accusations, and expect respectful attitude towards you?

---

which allegations or accusation I did? And when I brought no evidences or arguments?

[TigrannesIII]

My personal feelings, hate them however much you may want- Armenia is not the USA, Armenia (and any other mono-ethnic state) has the right to maintain its culture at any RESPONSIBLE costs. If that means keeping the Mormons and the Hare Krishnas out, so be it.

 

As for Kurds, other minorites, etc in Armenia, let them do as they wish. Personally I'd like to see the church take a more active role in the political sphere. They want their mosques, temples, etc, so be it.

 

I'm not too worried. As my Der Hayr put it, after a few years the guy will realize what an idiot he was jumping around in orange bed sheets that whole time.