religion repression

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MJ:
Much smaller than what?

---

much smaller than what you called a significant moslem population. there now not many moslems in Armenia. According to the human rights organization, allmost all Azeri's and a big portion of the kurds have emigrated Armenia. Armenia is now a typical mono-ethnic country .

[Berj]

Tornado,

 

Virtually all the countries where the ethnic majority has chosen the way of tolerant multi-ethnic society, have made that decission ONLY after the dominant role and place of that majority in that country's (or international) economic, political and cultural life was obvious, thus securing the constant existence of their culture. I'm not against sythesis of cultures which sometimes has positive resultes, but there is a clear line between synthesis and imposed cultural decadence, which is a result of demography.

 

Please, do not lecture Armenians about multi-ethnicity. Especially I can't tolerate this from the Turkish or the Iranians.

 

I have to repeat myself: if we have population of 10-15 mln who will identify themselves as Armenians we will think about it. Until then, please, give us a brake.

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Berj:
Tornado,

Virtually all the countries where the ethnic majority has chosen the way of tolerant multi-ethnic society, have made that decission ONLY after the dominant role and place of that majority in that country's (or international) economic, political and cultural life was obvious, thus securing the constant existence of their culture. I'm not against sythesis of cultures which sometimes has positive resultes, but there is a clear line between synthesis and imposed cultural decadence, which is a result of demography.

Please, do not lecture Armenians about multi-ethnicity. Especially I can't tolerate this from the Turkish or the Iranians.

I have to repeat myself: if we have population of 10-15 mln who will identify themselves as Armenians we will think about it. Until then, please, give us a brake.

---

You see: You admitted that you don't like moslems, well dear Berj I am CatholicIs this good enough? but the hell, I am a human being.
And yes multi-ethnic society is allways preferable and of course there are countries who have no trouble with that. Not only USA , but look at India, the biggest democracy of the world with so many ethnic and religious groups. Also in Europe Spain and Italy and Belgium are recognized and institutionalized multiethnic and multilingual countries.

And may I ask you why you can't take these from Turks or Iranians? Have I mentioned those people? I can imagine that Armenians should be angry with Turks? But why against Iranians? Why against the very small minorities groups who are still living in Armenia?

before you again badmouth me, think about it very deep and then one can have interesting exchange of views.

[MJ]

Really? And how much is "significant" in your view? Does your human rights organization spell out what portion of Armenians have emmigrated from Armenia, too?

Yes, Armenia is a mono-ethinic country by in large, and it has been so at least in the last 60 years. What is your proposal? Should Armenia "import" Muslim population and settle them in Armenia?

Can you also articulate in a couple of bullet points what is your bottom line and what is the point that you are trying to make?

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MJ:


Really? And how much is "significant" in your view? Does your human rights organization spell out what portion of Armenians have emmigrated from Armenia, too?

Yes, Armenia is a mono-ethinic country by in large, and it has been so at least in the last 60 years. What is your proposal? Should Armenia "import" Muslim population and settle them in Armenia?

Can you also articulate in a couple of bullet points what is your bottom line and what is the point that you are trying to make?

---

FIRST OF ALL THOSE HUAM RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS ARE NOT MINE.
Secondly all i had told you is that many thousands moslems in Armenia is not a significant number at all.
No you shouldn't import more people in Armenia, but the bottom line of democracy is equal rights and political freedom for all citizens, regardless of religion, race, ethnic group etc... This applies to all independent states, and I don't know why Armenia should be an exception!
Of course This ideal is not implied in Turkey, this is sad, but what has this to do with Armenia? If Jose beat up to my friend Alberto? So I am right to to beat up juan? I guess not, (I just used names of my friends, to give an example.)

Dear MJ , I saw from your messages that you are in favour of tolerance among the Armenians, but why you duisagree on thes. You want to say that the Armenians are positive towrds their minorities or neigbours?

No one expect that they are regarding the context of former soviet union. But is it not better to be?

I honestly don't care about religion, however I am catholic. But visiting the Armenian (as well as Turkish, Persian, Azeri,Assyrian and Kurdish sites), and reading agressive or friendly messages, I came to conclusion that as an ethnic minority you better dont live in either or in Turkey.

[MJ]

FIRST OF ALL THOSE HUAM RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS ARE NOT MINE.

 

Sorry, I didn’t know that.

 

Secondly all i had told you is that many thousands moslems in Armenia is not a significant number at all.

 

So what should we do? Multiply them through genetic engineering

 

..but the bottom line of democracy is equal rights and political freedom for all citizens, regardless of religion, race, ethnic group etc... .

 

What evidence do you have that the equal rights or the political freedoms are not equally shared by the minorities? Which rights do the minorities in Armenia lack in your opinion? Armenia is not an exception. Its population is more than friendly to its minorities, and the minorities enjoy absolutely the same rights and freedoms as the majorities do. And this has always been the case in Armenia.

 

Minorities and neighbors are two very different things. Being hostile to the neighbors has nothing to do with one’s attitude with minorities. Additionally, Armenia is not hostile to its neighbors. The blockade attests to the opposite. What is this about the Soviet Union you always come up with, I cannot understand. From your comments it is apparent that you know nothing about neither the former Soviet Union nor about Armenia? Why do you feel you are in the position of lecturing us, if you lack elementary knowledge on the subject?

 

Hope the question doesn't insult you.

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MJ:
FIRST OF ALL THOSE HUAM RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS ARE NOT MINE.

Sorry, I didn’t know that.

Secondly all i had told you is that many thousands moslems in Armenia is not a significant number at all.

So what should we do? Multiply them through genetic engineering

..but the bottom line of democracy is equal rights and political freedom for all citizens, regardless of religion, race, ethnic group etc... .

What evidence do you have that the equal rights or the political freedoms are not equally shared by the minorities? Which rights do the minorities in Armenia lack in your opinion? Armenia is not an exception. Its population is more than friendly to its minorities, and the minorities enjoy absolutely the same rights and freedoms as the majorities do. And this has always been the case in Armenia.

Minorities and neighbors are two very different things. Being hostile to the neighbors has nothing to do with one’s attitude with minorities. Additionally, Armenia is not hostile to its neighbors. The blockade attests to the opposite. What is this about the Soviet Union you always come up with, I cannot understand. From your comments it is apparent that you know nothing about neither the former Soviet Union nor about Armenia? Why do you feel you are in the position of lecturing us, if you lack elementary knowledge on the subject?

Hope the question doesn't insult you.

---

Well am I lecturing you here? Really, Actually I know something about former soviet union and it's neigbours. But the thing is that from the agressive reactions the Armenians and Turks do to the outsiders I had made my judgements. Beside that I read reports on the human rights issues all over the world. And I don't agree with your atatement that neignoutring countries and minorities are two different cases, an outsider is allways an outsider!

[MJ]

Actually I know something about former soviet union and it's neigbours.

 

But you haven't demonstarted it, yet.

 

But the thing is that from the agressive reactions the Armenians and Turks do to the outsiders I had made my judgements.

 

Maybe some Armenians are aggressive to some outsiders. But with the same token, some outsiders also lack elementary ethics when entering somebody else's "inside."

 

Beside that I read reports on the human rights issues all over the world.

 

And?

 

And I don't agree with your atatement that neignoutring countries and minorities are two different cases, an outsider is allways an outsider!

 

This argument, itself, demonstrates how serious your judgments may be taken.

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MJ:
Actually I know something about former soviet union and it's neigbours.

But you haven't demonstarted it, yet.

But the thing is that from the agressive reactions the Armenians and Turks do to the outsiders I had made my judgements.

Maybe some Armenians are aggressive to some outsiders. But with the same token, some outsiders also lack elementary ethics when entering somebody else's "inside."

Beside that I read reports on the human rights issues all over the world.

And?

And I don't agree with your atatement that neignoutring countries and minorities are two different cases, an outsider is allways an outsider!

This argument, itself, demonstrates how serious your judgments may be taken.

---

dear Mj I guess whatever I say you may disagree with me. I guess some people here know my level of knowledge regarding Armenia and it's neigbours. And as an European this shouldn't be expected to be much higher.

talking about the thics. what you think that I have done which has been unethical? I have never fallen into fights and argues with people , the way a lot of people here or in other sites do.

So i guess I am not welcomed here. Has this anything to to with my "outsider" status? I can't imagine which other factors may have contribute to this attitude other than this?

[MJ]

dear Mj I guess whatever I say you may disagree with me. I guess some people here know my level of knowledge regarding Armenia and it's neighbors.

 

Could those “some people” attest to your knowledge? Or may be you could do it yourself, without appealing to witnesses?

 

And as an European this shouldn't be expected to be much higher.

 

Sucha garbage... What kind of bigot are you? And you are the one to talk on behalf of the minorities or the Human Rights?

 

talking about the thics. what you think that I have done which has been unethical?

 

It’s been long time I am out of kindergarten. No desire to play those games.

 

I have never fallen into fights and argues with people , the way a lot of people here or in other sites do.

 

You would rather argue with people, than say the things that you have above. But the arguments should be based on knowledge, which you lack.

 

So i guess I am not welcomed here. Has this anything to to with my "outsider" status? I can't imagine which other factors may have contribute to this attitude other than this?

 

We have heard this garbage in our forum before.

[THOTH]

MJ - I think you are being too harsh with Tornado - too confrontational. Anyone might say something that some of us might disagree with - and you have made your points I think. I also think it is getting too personal. Tornado seems basically OK (no one is perfect eh?) and he has an interesting perspective. I can agree with much of what he is saying. I think it would be nice if you were more welcoming to him personaly - and if you have issue with facts in his posts - address them - but I find your tone here a bit uncomfortable...really

[MJ]

I hear you.

[Paul bunyan]

reply to Post 2584# should Armenia "import" muslim populations Ho ho ho,

Armenia should allow oppressed Christian minorities at their own expense to purchase land in Armenia or in one of the reclaimed regions Armenia would be because of the influx of skilled monied Christians the only Christian country in the middle east worth talking about

[MJ]

Paul,

 

I don't understand your comments on Christianity. Armenia has not been a Christian country for about 1000 years, it is not, nor it will be. It is a secular country, it is a secular culture and, I believe it would remain so.

Religious and other minorities in Armenia have always had the same rights as the rest of the population, and I suspect, it would continue.

Additionally I, for example, would be disgusted to live in any religious country –be it Christian or Muslim, or anything else.

[Berj]

Tornado,

Please, tell me where did I admit that I don't like moslems. Tornado, it's really hard to talk to you, you know.



Tornado, can't you see that you're comparing uncomparable items. India, Spain, Italy and Beligium. India has 1 BILLION population and is united around the idea of Hiduism with its numerous branches. Italy, Spain and Belgium are currently situated in themost secure part of the world. Actually Italy and Spain have had FASIST regims. The fact the that they had a nazies in power already speaks for itself.



Becuase both of them have displayed extreem nationalism, nazism etc. towards Armenians in the past and now you ask us to be tolerant. Are you kidding?



I am not angry with Iranians, but do not try to impose anithing on us. Actually it is you who is making me angry towards them by saying how shall we treat minorities, and that we shall be tolerant to the Azeries.
As a former historian I am angry towards the foolish policy of Iranian kings during the Sasanid dinasty, who were also teaching us how to treat national minorities, but in reality devided Armenian to a number of small parts and sent its cavallery to fight with Qushans in the east (I think you must know this Tornado), leaving Armenia unprotected. You know the results of this Tornado? I can tell you. Iran was conquered by Qushans, then Seljuks, then Arabs because of its policies agaist Armenia. By the way, the same happened to Bysantine.

Tornado, if you want to be friends, as I suppose, help or stay away.



Minorities in Armenia leave in a very tolerant society. Let me give you an example. When Ojalan was arrested, the Kurds of Armenia organised a huge demonstration. While passing by on that day I felt I'm not in Armenia. Police was only keeping them calm. Do we need this Kurdish-Turkish conflict on our territory. Let me guess.. No! But by the right of assembly etc.etc they were given a chance to voice their opinion.



I didn't badmouth you and I'm ready to discuss as soon as you bring up logical arguments.

Take care

[MJ]

No need to try to cause tornado here, Tornado.

 

We don’t care if you are Armenian or not. There are many non-Armenians in this forum, and they are equal members with the Armenians.

 

As far as the history goes, I think that you do need to learn a lot of history. I am sure I need it too.

 

I also think that non of us has given you any evidence that we hate Iran. I can suspect that you have come to this forum with that premise. We don’t hate Iran. In fact, we think Iran is one of the most important strategic partners of Armenia, and it is a very important neighbor. We just oppose any attempts of making anything more out of it. Additionally, whether somebody is Christian, Muslim, Zorastrian, Aryan, Jew, etc, makes zero difference to us. We judge about people by their persona, and we agree or disagree with their arguments based on the merits.

 

Based on the merits, whenever you have said things that we have agreed with, we have expressed our agreement. However, when your arguments don’t correspond to the truth, and they carry a pretext beyond those of being of academic, informational or similar character, we would reserve the right to disagree, and vehemently so when warranted.

 

I have to also add that if you are alleging something, the burden of proof is on you, not on us.

 

As far as your tax payment arguments are concerned, I have to say that the arguments of these types, as well as the ones which could be read between the lines of your other postings are the ones, which alienate us from you and your ideological brethren.

 

If you can show one evidence of disrespect in this forum towards Muslims or any neighbors of Armenians regardless of their religion, which has not been rebuffed by someone in the forum- moderator or a member, I would appreciate. Then I will personally apologize to you. Until then, I will call you a liar and an unstable person. So the burden is on you.

 

Whether the Sasanides were Muslim or not makes no difference on us. Historically speaking, multiple Iranian dynasties have devastated Armenia. This is a fact, which can be argumented if needed to. However, if your premise is that because of it we hate Iranians, then it would be a far stretched and unfounded accusation. However, just because Iran is a friendly country to Armenia in the modern days, it doesn’t mean that we have to refrain from adequate analysis of our history.

As far as the Kurds go, by their own recognition, (Soviet) Armenia has been one of the most friendly and supportive to them countries in the world. In Soviet Armenia (an only there) Kurds have had their own Radio Station, they have/had their newspaper, schools, departments of Kurdish Studies in institutions of higher educations, and the Government of Armenia has financed in any possible way the development of Kurdish culture in Armenia. I am sure, today, Kurds don’t enjoy the same support in Armenia as they used to. But Armenia is going through some very tough times. A lot of programs that used to be active in the old days are non-existent in our days due to financial and economic problems.

I also would like to bring to your attention that this forum has existed for more than a year, and it is one of the most rapidly growing national forums, if you compare it with not only the rest of the Armenian Forums, but with forums of any nationality. All that has become possible exactly due to the fact that in this forum is possible to have civilized and well-argumented discussions.

It is also evident that nobody has asked you out. That insinuation is resulted from your own fantasy. There is only one way of asking somebody out of this forum – issuing three Warnings. You haven’t been issued even one Warning.

However, you are at liberty to leave the forum as soon as you decide so. One thing that would be appreciated, however, is if you do it without hysteria, and without breaking the windows and the doors of the forum.

 

[ June 08, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

[nairakev]

Wow, what a hot thread!

I've got burnt my eyes...

---

Let me drop few lines into it. Would you mind it?

---

Tornado,

You really rock!

I haven't seen any other "Tornado" be as fragile as you are when it comes to discussions where your arguments do not get the "popularity" reate. Well...the discussions are not always end up by having conveinced opponents. There are, certainly, an amount of "square-heads" that nothing will change their mind, but there are also "open-minded" but tough ones. With whom you need more delicacy and espacially well-streched arguments. MJ is a "tough" guy but far away from being restrictive. Say, just you are upset because you didn't suceed to beat his arguments. Though you could have them, if you had spent some more time on analysing the "facts and news" instead of pushing on your "sentiments".

 

We didn't discuss a lot. But honestly I had a very "strange" feeling that you let yourself easily get caught by "sentiments"... And not always with best ones.

 

Remember the "basque" thread in "Language" section. Some citations of your thoughts:

 

oh I didn't know that the Mingrelians hated Georgians. I allways had thought that the fanatic and chauvenist Georgians are from mingrelia, like Gamsakhurdia was.

 

Don't you think that your predjudices are overcoming your "sober" mind. This is an exageration to think that the fanatic and chauvenist Georgians are from mingrelia

 

Be careful when you state something in this forum. Because you are touching very serious

subjects like "religion", "origin", "peace", "hate".

 

I understand the offensive tone of MJ (but I do not approve! MJ, you hear me?). He demands arguments. While stating something in public forums where visitors enter from god knows where with god knows what kind of background, you cannot just express your personal thoughts (which are far to be not extremist) and expect people agreeing with you. There are always various reactions. And sometimes very extraordinary. So if you feel offended, I think it's better to avoid launching yourself into such a "touchy" subject as the religion is.

 

I'm armenian, but I'm in a tiny minority here because of my thoughts and ideas. And I do not let myself down when someone tries to push on me. If you felt that someone pushed on you. First bring your arguments in more clear way. Then I'll stand for you. But I don't see a reason why you should leave and make yourself a "victim" when noone asked you to leave.

 

Even if I hated your thoughts, I would have stood for you staying here. But I can't do anything, because nobody asked you to leave.

 

Sorry! In that case it means that you lost your discussion. And you failed to promote your ideas. You can't blame anybody for that, Tornado!

Nobody was extremely friendly to some of my ideas here. But I don't look here for friends, neither for enemies.

For making firends I've got some "web personals" sites specialised for those who look for friends and pen-pals. This thread doesn't seem to be a "let's make frriends" style thing, don't you think. Log in to "Love and Romance" for that purpose.

I'd love to meet you their as well, if you feel ready!!!

 

 

-------------

MJ, you armenian despot!

You've explained in such "brezhnev" style manner the glory of Armenian multi-ethnic society.

I know that ethnic minorities were well-protected and prosperous during soviet era. I know that. What about today. Do you have any idea on what's going on there? I don't. I found through some firends some surprising news. Check it out, if you didn't do it, yet!

http://www.armenianforums.com/site/read.ph...3?f=3&i=35&t=35

 

We should learn this with more attention, don't you think. Soviet era is gone. What's happening now? Sad! Though I'm not a big "brezhnev" fan :=)

 

---

 

I didn't want to say this, but I can't. It's for you Berj!

 

Tornado, if you want to be friends, as I suppose, help or stay away.

Should a moderator go that far?

I always said, that I like you...

 

But now you are going to make me love you, honey!

 

[ June 08, 2001: Message edited by: naira ]

[MJ]

Say, just you are upset because you didn't succeed to beat his arguments. Though you could have them, if you had spent some more time on analyzing the "facts and news" instead of pushing on your "sentiments".

 

Why don’t you try it, Naira.

 

I understand the offensive tone of MJ (but I do not approve! MJ, you hear me?). He demands arguments.

 

As you said, I demand arguments, which were absent, and the facts were wrong. But had no intention to be offensive. I just wanted him take responsibility for what he says, and was just pushing him to lay his cards on the table, which I think he did.

 

MJ, you Armenian despot!

 

You forgot the epithet "sensual."

 

You've explained in such "brezhnev" style manner the glory of Armenian multi-ethnic society. I know that ethnic minorities were well-protected and prosperous during soviet era. I know that.

 

So which part of what I said did you disagree with? I indeed think that to the degree that Armenia was multi-ethnic in the old days, it indeed was glorious.

 

What about today. Do you have any idea on what's going on there? I don't.

I don’t either. Therefore, those who would claim that something is wrong there in terms of the attitudes towards ethnic minorities, the burden of proof would be on them. If it would turn out that there is much validity into such accusation, I can guarantee you that I would be very vociferous about it, And I would not be alone in that.

 

I found through some firends some surprising news. Check it out, if you didn't do it, yet! http://www.armenianforums.com/site/read.ph...3?f=3&i=35&t=35

 

I was aware of this article. I am not sure what to make out of it at this time. If it is true, I would be very disturbed. However, I am very aware of many manipulations on this subject. I am aware of straight Armenian men claiming that they were gay so that to get permanent residency in Netherlands. I am aware of Armenian people in California claiming in deportation proceedings that they were against Armenia’s independence, and if they would be deported back to Armenia, they would be persecuted. I am aware of men who’s only religion was the almighty $, who were asking for asylum in the US on the grounds of their religious sect being persecuted in Armenia. I am aware of hundreds of thousands of Russian Jews immigrating to the US on the grounds of “fear for their life and pogroms in Russia” in the 90s. Therefore, when I read these types of articles, unless there is compelling evidence, I highly discount them.

 

Now, you were saying about “Brezhnev.” What was it?

[nairakev]

So which part of what I said did you disagree with?

Don't be such a "paranoiac", Himbo!

I'm not from your ligue of "divine mazochists". I don't find any amusement in the process of 'disagreement". I enjoy rather concesus ... with a bit of "ketch-up" and "spicy-sault-n-peppered" sauce on it ... for "emotional" effect of the matter!

 

Now, you were saying about “Brezhnev.” What was it?

It was a "sweet" dream, honey!

Now, I'm grown up. I don't believe in those dreams any more. They are too impulsive...I would rather talk about "brezhnev"-s sexual disturbation than on his impotent regime time. I count on some comprehension, here!

Sensual despot!

[MJ]

Oh, I see… You are from the league of “Sadist Dominatrixes.”

[nairakev]

LOL ... not bad! I like this try!

[MJ]

At your service, Naira. You can count on me ...

[nairakev]

Count on you? You won't suceed in converting me, baby! I've got no religion! My bible is me! And I didn't finish my "lecture" yet ...
You better pray!

[MJ]

Your Bible was studied successfully (now, be gentle with me ).

What a pity. Converting a Dominatrix would've been a lifetime achievement.

Who do I prey to?

[Berj]

Naira,

That sentence was a continuation of a thought elaborated in the paragraph ahead and was ment to approve mutually beneficial BUT EQUAL relations between Armenia and Iran.

Now tell me, should a person interested in logical argumentations go this far:

I enjoy rather concesus ... with a bit of "ketch-up" and "spicy-sault-n-peppered" sauce on it ... for "emotional" effect of the matter!

What emotional effects? That's what we are trying to avoid here, especially in these kind of threads, to get at least some tiny emotionless results. Keep you adrenaline in control.