I am a Turk phobic

[Rubo]

I must be honest. I am a Turk phobic. I saw this in me very clearly when watching mind you, travel reportage on Turkey. They showed Saint Sofia and I am cursing, Darn it! They stole it from the Greeks! They showed architectural gems such as Dolbashi palace but fail to say Armenian Architect family Balians built it. I am watching all the usual compliments about the Turks, good food, great hospitality and so on but wait something is not right, they do not mention anything about Armenians or Greeks but plenty about Ataturk and his victories. I was disappointed that the report was successful in it’s intend to attract many tourists who are more interested in food and carpets then real history about the place. So in conclusion I was visibly in foul mood just by watching this program hence I am still Turk phobic.

Regards Rubo

[Accelerated]

I really dont blame them for the lies. I mean you dont expect them to say "...we are a bunch of mongrels, a collection of ethnicities from the Balkans to the Mongolian Plain, and everything we have achieved has been largelly thanks to the peoples we have ruled in the course of our history.....and which we have later punished for further refusing to co-operate for our good....while suppressing their legitimate rights to self-determination...."

[Rubo]

Seriously Accelerated, how did you decided on Accelerated! I mean where are you rushing to?

 

I have been pretty fare when comes to Turks in general since I am not a racist and do not support people as such, but I am also product of my own brand of brainwashing.I can't take the Armenian genocide out of me which means I can not take the Turks out of me either. I am forever a part of this. I can forgive the Turks but only if they also show sincere remorse.Every time any Turk denies the AG, I can't help but feel negatively towards that perticular person hence the cycle...

[Sip]

Dear Rubo,

 

I was confused regarding what you were talking about ... is this some sort of TV program you are referring to?

 

I am really not much of a carpet fan but I definitely fall in that turist category attracted to food. As long as they have good food, I'll probably visit there one day

 

So why were you disappointed in the reports success? There are great things to visit in Turkey and that's what they pointed out. And naturally they would focus on the turist that has "spending" in mind as opposed to the ones that have "history" and "looking around" in mind ...

[gamavor]

Welcome to the club Rubo!

 

Hating turks has become part of Armenian Identity somewhere during the long centuries of oppression. Armenian Genocide was only the final brick in the wall of hate.

In a way its good. When you hate something that you perceive to be bad (philosophically speaking), you subconsciously try to do, like, behave in a opposite manner. So, however wrong our impression is about turks, in our minds we associate them with dirt (so, we need to be clean), old-fashion (so, we need to be modern and fashionable), stupid (so we need to be educated and smart), ugly (we need to be handsome, God willing), nasty (we need to be kindhearted), uncompromising (so, we need to be tolerant?!?) and so on and so on....

[Accelerated]

LOL.

[TigrannesIII]

I hope you dont feel bad about. I'm like that only I don't say 'darn it', I'm a little more harsh. Turks deserve our hate, they have done nothing to deserve our love or even our respect. We just have to go about being better than them. Like when we had an earthquake, they blockaded us. When they had an earthquake, we offered help. What really pisses me off is the way the rest of the world screws us over, moreso than what the turks have done to us. ok, maybe not, but close.

[Rubo]

Sip I was talking about a TV program about Turkey. I guess you are lucky that you can dissociate the Armenian experience in Turkey and enjoy the little Touristy activities.

I am by profession an Artist and having immersed myself in Armenian Genocide resulted in creation of paintings, which were extremely hard on me. I was there metaphorically and lived the horror of it all and since then, I am trying to find answers that satisfy me. Every time I read a newspaper report or watch a TV programs on Turks, I become biased since I expect them to also talk about the Armenian experience as well and negating this does affect me negatively. Denial can also be accomplished by intentional omission. The pluck in front of Ani entrance says absolutely nothing about Armenians even though Armenians built it, and it had over one thousand Armenian architectural gems. I know I would be upset, if I were traveling in Turkey and found all kinds of historical omissions and distortions. I know I will be one annoying Tourist when my Turkish guide resort to say Sinan was a Turk, I would stick my neck out and correct” excuse me sir but he was an Armenian” and see him get pissed and so on. God bless you guys and together we will overcome and build a prosperous healthy Armenia.

[Sip]

I may be "lucky" but I always feel 'left out' and not like a 'true' Armenian due to my feelings. I have always felt like I should hate the turks ... As a kid, I was told to scream such things off the top of my lungs when we were marching each year for April 24th in Iran.

 

Then, as I grew older, I started paying attention to what I could see to form my opinions on (just like you, dear Rubo, as an Artist have done the same). Granted, being stuck in purely academic circles so far in my life, I have had a very narrow view of what is trully out there. But the 'turks' I have come in contact with have all been extremely nice and normal individuals which have managed to put me in a complete state of confusion ... from one hand I have the Armenian cries and my childhood brain washings about the turks ... on the other hand I deal with these few individuals on a daily basis, some of whom have become my friends.

 

Note that I had a VERY similar experience regarding Germans. For years and years I saw the world war 2 movies and jewish cries growing up in Iran. I was hateful of the germans and I despised everything about them... and then, somehow, we had to LIVE there for 2 years ... oh the horror !!!!!!!

 

But nothing could be farther from it. I found Germans in general to be extremely pleasant people. I had a lot of fun going to school there as a growing teenager and developed strong friendships with several classmates.

 

These are some of the reasons why I am a confused mess of thoughts right now. And everytime I hear chants of "We Armenains Hate All Turks" I get even more depressed ... well, I don't hate all turks ... so am I not an Armenian then?

(I know sounds pretty childish but nevertheless, I have had that delimma for many many years)

 

Oh, and one time, I gave this turkish guy the wrong answer on a test (he was sitting next to me). I really HATED myself for it since I didn't do it just to mess with him. I didn't do it to play a trick on him (I have done that many times before with others). I did it because deep down inside there was pure and sheer hatered bubbling somewhere in my guts. I didn't like that at all.

[Rubo]

Dear Sip, you wrote “And everytime I hear chants of "We Armenains Hate All Turks" I get even more depressed ... well, I don't hate all turks ... so am I not an Armenian then?”

 

Being Armenian is not synonymous with hating Turks. I do not hate Turks in general but I do react negatively to AG deniers. I am sure you guys already had plenty discussions of what it means being an Armenian so I will pass this subject. My general sentiment was that even though I consciously do not hate any groups in particular however when dealing with the past, I have a difficulty overcoming the AG. Perhaps you may be right if I do spend time in Turkey, it may change my outlook about lot of things. I am glad that we had an opportunity to meet electronically at least. One reason why I like forums like this is that we can learn from each other’s experiences. Take care

[Sip]

Yes, plenty of discussions! But nothing concrete seems to have come out. I don't think there is a definite answer to the question ... much like the meaning of life question! Everyone has his or her own take on it (what it means to be Armenian).

 

Cheers

 

Oh and I feel the same way about the AG deniers. Now this is one thing where the FACTS are there and are indisputable.

[Nvard]

I've heard about lots of Armenians that HATE Turks and Azeris, but I've never actually seen them.It confuses and makes me angry very much in some way.People here have never talked about a Turk loving wave among the hays, but there's such thing, the so-called FORGIVE AND FORGET....

I know an Armenian girl who wants to marry a Turk(Azeri),a guy that has a half Azeri- half Armenian girlfriend , a girl that likes only Turkish songs and culture, a guy whose best friends are all Azeris....and so on and on and on.......Makes me mad...it's too much! One day I heard an Azeri say, that Armenians are like faithful dogs, you beat them, they bark and bite but then they come back again and lick you feet....Ooooooooh,I thought i was gonna slice him into pieces right there...

[Accelerated]

Hate is a strong word. I dislike them (Azeris/Turks) as a group, but they are human too, despite their savage ancestry .

[THOTH]

Well, obviously, this is a very complicated issue (for any thinking/feeling Armenian). Of course we can never forget our history and how the Turks as a group (or perhaps a group, or groups of Turks) treated us (our families/people). In remembering the atrocities visited upon our kin it is of course very hard not to feel hatred toward the perpetrators - particualrly in light of the lack of contrition on the part of those who did such and a lack of any (for the most part) aknowledgement from their descendents. I am often driven to rage when I read or hear accounts of the Genocide and when I read or hear the denialists - attempting to blame Armenians for their fate or making various excuses or in just failing to show any sympathy for what obvioulsy is something that is painful to me and to asll of us. (and it seems so obvious as to what occured I think - so how could it be denied and how could someone do such and feel no guilt/shame and sympathy etc) So I too have (at times) cursed the Turks as a group in my despair and have wished them ill.

 

At the same time I think we must realize several things. All people are individuals and not just some "group" - and they deserve to be treated as such and not just lumped into a particular category that we may say they belong to. Everyone should be given a chance to prove themselves on their own merit - without predjudice. We must also be more sophisticated in understanding the dynamics of what occured in 1915 (and in previous massacres). The point being - while certainly the Turks as a people/nation exhibited certain traits/history that perhaps increased their potential to commit such deeds - the fact is that nearly any group of people could possibly commit such acts under severely stressful circumstances such as existed in the Ottoman Empire during the early part of the 20th century. And even in condemning those who did these deeds - we must understand that the Turks living today (most all of them) played no part in the Genocide or prior massacres and that most of the denial is from ignorance and misinformation and a certain natural (but perhaps exaggerated) defensivenss (and nationalism). Being phobic/distrustful or hating of the Turkish Government (or powers behind the Government) may be another matter - considering the orchestrated denial campaign and such. But I will withold that judgement at this time.

 

I for one was never bred to hate anyone - and I don't think that hatred is ever really a good thing - it usually destroys the hater - not the hated. And is this hatred what we, as Armenians, really want to be known for? We must ask ourselves - if we are to act as those we despise (for the terrible things they have done) or advocate acts similar to those that were perpetuated against us - what makes us any different or better? (and how can we complain that what was done to us was some terrible abberation if we advocate similar?)

 

Obviously just being "phobic" about Turks and Turkey is a much lesser thing (but I say what I do here because I know that many posting and reading this do advocate pursuing violence against the Turks and wish to reclaim lands by cleansing them of the current [innocent] inhabitants). Even this phobia and such, though entirely understandable, is something that I think it behooves you to overcome. We cannot solve anything by standing on opposites sides of a divider and glaring at one another - refusing to communicate. Communication and understanding are required for solution to any problems/issues among two or more groups or people. And there is nothing to be gained by only acting as if Turks are not worth communicating with and are strictly just thew "enemy". Armenians and Turks have had at least 700 years of close interaction and will contiue to be (at the very least) neighbors for a long time to come. All of this interaction has not been bad (even if much of it has for various reasons...[but, we must realise that people and nations change and mature]). Like it or not - we are very much like the Turks and they like us. (I fail to buy of 0n this barbaric Turks thing - particularly if one considers that the genetic make-up of the Turks is very mixed and contains many Slav, Greek, and even Armenian components). And we will not just be able to go out and "beat" the Turks and get what we want anyway - not in any scenario where we remain a moral people - as I think slaughtering lots of innocent folks (for dubious reasons) is immoral. So we must introduce a dialogue (IMO).

 

I have known Turkish people all of my life - beginnig in high school and from then throughout my life til the present. For many years my younger sister's best friend was a Turkish gal (and this was often a bit uncomfortable - though mostly for her family). I have Turkish friends today - I have visted Turkey - and I thouroughly enjoyed the visit and the people (though the leaving out of Armenian history/contributions did certainly anger me...though not all are ignorant, nor uncaring, etc). And I made sure to let (nearly) everyone know that I was Armenian (almost did get into one fight - but it was he who brought up the issue of Genocide/massacres and insisted on the official turkish party line that it was the Armenians who were the culprits) etc. And, in fact, I am planning to return to Turkey in the very near future - and I am anticipating a wonderful visit with great food and great things to see and do - and perhaps more then one at least slightly charged discussion of things historical and such concerning our common interests.

 

And I am not phobic towards the Turks - or refuse to buy Turkeish products or such (though I would support specific boycotts tied to certain political issues if I thought they would increase Genocide recognition or such and had a specific purpose and hope of achieving something). Bottom line you have to live and let live and you should not place artificial constraints on such, and you shouldn't be all tied up in being negative or hateful - it does you little, if any, good - IMO. And if you bothered to see, you might be surprised over just how much like you the Turks are. I came accross this all of the time the last time I was in Turkey - people and circumstances and cultural things that remined me of my own family and Armenians and Armenian situations, etc. At the same time we must never forget our history - nor let the Turks forget it (its a matter of how to approach it though, I think).

[Nikephoros_Phokas]

Speaking of Hagia Sofia a Greek newspaper(Freepress) recently ran an interesting piece on what the Turkish marauders have been doing in this ex-church.

 

Eleftherotypia: Parliamentarians talk about the "defilement of" the Hagia Sofia

 

"Brutal challenge to the sensitivities of Hellenism" characterize the statements by the deputies of PASOK St. Papathemelis and Mr. Spyriounis and "they from the side of Turkish state defile Saint Sofia with its utilization as a place to hold "artistic" events for the celebration of 550th anniversary of the Fall of Constantinople.

 

With questions to the ministers of Culture and Foreign Affairs they ask to be informed about how the Greek government will react, what initiatives it thinks should be undertaken internationally for the condemnation of this new barbarbism and if finally in bilateral relations the Government is to give a factual message and what this message will be. They stress, finally, that this coincides with an escalation of intensifying Turkish vulgarity shown with the continuous violations of our national sovereign territory.

 

[This translation is based on a machine translation which I modified. It is a poor translation but you get the point.]

Edited June 27, 2003 by Nikephoros_Phokas

[Nikephoros_Phokas]

... I mean you dont expect them to say "...we are a bunch of mongrels, a collection of ethnicities from the Balkans to the Mongolian Plain, and everything we have achieved has been largelly thanks to the peoples we have ruled in the course of our history.....and which we have later punished for further refusing to co-operate for our good....while suppressing their legitimate rights to self-determination...."

Accelerated your anaylsis is right on. The translated Greek newspaper article I pasted helps support this thesis. The Turkish government wanted to celebrate Turkish culture and the 550th anniversary of the Fall of Constantinople, and the location of the celebration spoke volumes. Not only do most Turks not think it is strange to celebrate invasions in a country run by the military but you do not see much protest that this celebration of an old invasion celebrated Turkish culture. This is kind of implying Turkish culture is war and invading and that Turkish culture steals the achievements of other nations such as the Greek built Hagia-Sofia. I can not think of a bigger example supporting your thesis than the Turks celebrating their culture in an Orthodox church which the Turks did not build but they destroyed much of its artistic beauty with minarets and painting over its murals with Islamic graffiti.

 

If you go to Turkish tourist websites and waste your time reading their history you will see it is Hellenophobic propaganda. You get the impression from reading it that there were these mythical Ionians living in Western Turkey, mythical because the Turks try to take Ionians and not say they are Greek as if these Ionians did not consider themselves a part of Greek culture. Marauders have conquered these monuments from antiquity that most likely the Turkish state would systemically destroy if not for the hard currency that the tourists who come to see them bring. If you do visit Turkey try to do everything under the table. If you can stay at a Turks home and pay them instead of a hotel, do it to deny the Turkish state revenues from taxes to fund Armenian genocide denial, equip its military, fund F-type prisons, buy lobbying groups in Washington, pay for the brutal Turkish police, etc. The less money the Turkish government has the better.

[America-Hye]

Nick,

 

You have just the right idea. They are trying to dry us up, namely keep Armenia and Armenians poor. You can not imagine the falsehoods they conjured up at my place of employ, claiming that I was prejudiced against them for being Turks. I always treated everyone the same and fairly. They want to finish us off for good, ROA and the diaspora Armenians as well.

 

They want to join the EU to improve their commerce. Hold their feet to the fire. Improve our relations with the Greeks, Bulgarians, Russians, moderate elements in Iran, Chinese, Japanese, etc. They are planning to poison our good relationship with the Japanese, so as to use this as an alternative lever to the Jewish lobby.

 

Work to make Turkey poorer. As you say less money for their military, obscene prisons, Genocide denial, public relations whores in Washington, DC, etc. Encirle Turkey with a noose of Bulgarians, Armenians, Kurds, Syrians, Cypriots, Greeks. All these nations want a piece of Turkey's ass. Support the radical groups in Turkey. Let them crack down on their own people.

 

The cold war is over. They no longer have a carte blanche. They are slipping fast. Any comfort you give them will be used to bury our Nation and the disapora.

[phantom]

Well, obviously, this is a very complicated issue (for any thinking/feeling Armenian). Of course we can never forget our history and how the Turks as a group (or perhaps a group, or groups of Turks) treated us (our families/people). In remembering the atrocities visited upon our kin it is of course very hard not to feel hatred toward the perpetrators - particualrly in light of the lack of contrition on the part of those who did such and a lack of any (for the most part) aknowledgement from their descendents. I am often driven to rage when I read or hear accounts of the Genocide and when I read or hear the denialists - attempting to blame Armenians for their fate or making various excuses or in just failing to show any sympathy for what obvioulsy is something that is painful to me and to asll of us. (and it seems so obvious as to what occured I think - so how could it be denied and how could someone do such and feel no guilt/shame and sympathy etc) So I too have (at times) cursed the Turks as a group in my despair and have wished them ill.

 

At the same time I think we must realize several things. All people are individuals and not just some "group" - and they deserve to be treated as such and not just lumped into a particular category that we may say they belong to. Everyone should be given a chance to prove themselves on their own merit - without predjudice. We must also be more sophisticated in understanding the dynamics of what occured in 1915 (and in previous massacres). The point being - while certainly the Turks as a people/nation exhibited certain traits/history that perhaps increased their potential to commit such deeds - the fact is that nearly any group of people could possibly commit such acts under severely stressful circumstances such as existed in the Ottoman Empire during the early part of the 20th century. And even in condemning those who did these deeds - we must understand that the Turks living today (most all of them) played no part in the Genocide or prior massacres and that most of the denial is from ignorance and misinformation and a certain natural (but perhaps exaggerated) defensivenss (and nationalism). Being phobic/distrustful or hating of the Turkish Government (or powers behind the Government) may be another matter - considering the orchestrated denial campaign and such. But I will withold that judgement at this time.

 

I for one was never bred to hate anyone - and I don't think that hatred is ever really a good thing - it usually destroys the hater - not the hated. And is this hatred what we, as Armenians, really want to be known for? We must ask ourselves - if we are to act as those we despise (for the terrible things they have done) or advocate acts similar to those that were perpetuated against us - what makes us any different or better? (and how can we complain that what was done to us was some terrible abberation if we advocate similar?)

 

Obviously just being "phobic" about Turks and Turkey is a much lesser thing (but I say what I do here because I know that many posting and reading this do advocate pursuing violence against the Turks and wish to reclaim lands by cleansing them of the current [innocent] inhabitants). Even this phobia and such, though entirely understandable, is something that I think it behooves you to overcome. We cannot solve anything by standing on opposites sides of a divider and glaring at one another - refusing to communicate. Communication and understanding are required for solution to any problems/issues among two or more groups or people. And there is nothing to be gained by only acting as if Turks are not worth communicating with and are strictly just thew "enemy". Armenians and Turks have had at least 700 years of close interaction and will contiue to be (at the very least) neighbors for a long time to come. All of this interaction has not been bad (even if much of it has for various reasons...[but, we must realise that people and nations change and mature]). Like it or not - we are very much like the Turks and they like us. (I fail to buy of 0n this barbaric Turks thing - particularly if one considers that the genetic make-up of the Turks is very mixed and contains many Slav, Greek, and even Armenian components). And we will not just be able to go out and "beat" the Turks and get what we want anyway - not in any scenario where we remain a moral people - as I think slaughtering lots of innocent folks (for dubious reasons) is immoral. So we must introduce a dialogue (IMO).

 

I have known Turkish people all of my life - beginnig in high school and from then throughout my life til the present. For many years my younger sister's best friend was a Turkish gal (and this was often a bit uncomfortable - though mostly for her family). I have Turkish friends today - I have visted Turkey - and I thouroughly enjoyed the visit and the people (though the leaving out of Armenian history/contributions did certainly anger me...though not all are ignorant, nor uncaring, etc). And I made sure to let (nearly) everyone know that I was Armenian (almost did get into one fight - but it was he who brought up the issue of Genocide/massacres and insisted on the official turkish party line that it was the Armenians who were the culprits) etc. And, in fact, I am planning to return to Turkey in the very near future - and I am anticipating a wonderful visit with great food and great things to see and do - and perhaps more then one at least slightly charged discussion of things historical and such concerning our common interests.

 

And I am not phobic towards the Turks - or refuse to buy Turkeish products or such (though I would support specific boycotts tied to certain political issues if I thought they would increase Genocide recognition or such and had a specific purpose and hope of achieving something). Bottom line you have to live and let live and you should not place artificial constraints on such, and you shouldn't be all tied up in being negative or hateful - it does you little, if any, good - IMO. And if you bothered to see, you might be surprised over just how much like you the Turks are. I came accross this all of the time the last time I was in Turkey - people and circumstances and cultural things that remined me of my own family and Armenians and Armenian situations, etc. At the same time we must never forget our history - nor let the Turks forget it (its a matter of how to approach it though, I think).

Wow, I don't know who you are THOTH, but I couldn't have said it better myself. Bravo for an eloquently described and extremely enlightened perspective.

[pyrheraklit]

Distinction between individuals and groups is as crucial as trivial. Hatred and fear for a group are not only ethically "wrong" but useless too. Fanatics and haters are always the best opponents because their reactions are known and very easily predicted.

 

But there are ties between individuals and the groups they belong to. Beyond false-generalizations, we can certainly define a turkish mentality which is more or less present in most Turks. I've never found a Turk accepting the "mistakes" of Turkish state in foreign affairs, for example armenian genocide or occupation in Cyprus. You can find a lot of Greeks feeling shame for similar (not genocides of course) "mistakes" of the Greek State and expressing it everywhere.

 

I read somewhere about the main national myth cultivated in turkish schools (btw, i believe that the aim of history taught in schools in every country is building a national identity, not to learn truths for the past): the invincible turkish army which brings civilization in every country it conquers. It's not coincidence that 80% of turkish people consider the turkish army as the most credible institution of the country. It's almost impossible for a Turk to accept armenian genocide, this contradicts to his national identity, his construction as a member of turkish society.

[THOTH]

Phantom -

 

Thank you very much & BTW - sorry I missed this - I was away when you posted. I too applaud your perspective. I know it from my occasonal monitoring of another furum - I think you know the one of which I speak. I don't post on that forum because it is a censored and controlled forum - and even though I belive I hold enlightened views that they should have no problem with I can all too well see what the reaction to me would be (as it is to you) and that i would be (for the most part) wasting my time. I applaud your very reasoned and patient attempts to press for some honesty and to educate over there however...and I must say I am often tempted to join in...In the meantime however I encourage your continued involvement in this forum. Please to finally meet you.

 

pyrheraklit -

 

I can agree with many of your poits but I disagree that all Turks are so accepting of Turkiosh Foriegn policy (or whatnot) transgressions. Certainly there is a fierce nationalism that is pounded into Turks - but it is a mistake to think that there are not many educated Turks who indeed rise above this - and I have met several. No question that Greeks and Armenians have more inherent cynicism (if thats the correct word - or perhaps honesty is better...) regarding their governments and aspects of the "official histories" and what not...but don't lump all Turks into the ignorant over-nationalist basket...because there are plenty who are indeed cynical and looking for answers outside of official propagansa. It is these Turks we must reach out to. Additionally we cannot expect Turks just to see things our way - and in fact most of us need to develop a more sophisticated understanding of our history - beyond our own myths - then we currently possess - and this involves listening to elements of the "Turkish position" that we often ignore or brush aside. A dialogue is just that...from both sides - where listening is crucial/necessary - and only through dilogue will our problems/issues get resolved.

Edited July 14, 2003 by THOTH

[pyrheraklit]

Fully agreed THOTH, consider any false generalizations of mine as just language exaggerations, not exact beliefs.

 

I admire too Phantom's posts and courage in the forum mentioned...

[THOTH]

pyrheraklit -

 

agreed and glad to have you aboard.

 

I know that many Armenians (here & in general) consider me to be an apoligist for the Turks - I don't believe this is true. I have fought against Genocide denial (on web forums and in other venues) more then any here save Domino and perhaps Phantom now. At the same time I see Armenians going after (non rabid denialist) Turks who have much more reasoned perspectives as well - often just as zealously - and I think that this is wrong. Obviously very few Turks are going to have opinions about the Genocide that correspond with ours - though in fact I know a few who - for all intensive purposes do - and in some cases they call for greater reperations and such then I even think is reasonable (at this time/if ever...). Yes, even many of these Turks seem to embrace some form of rationalization (of past Turkish behaviors) and attempt to defelct blame and make excuses...and while ultimately I don't believe this is a justifiable position - I think we can at least listen to some of the arguments and counter them with (unbiased) factual information - not just call them dirty dogs or worse etc - that gets us nowhere. If we listen - and they know that we are truly listening - not just countering knee jerk - it may force them to think through these issues a bit themselves - particulalry if we are providing good information. Domino has had great success with this in fact - as have I in the past. And in fact there are more Turks out there who are more ressonable and sophisticated on these issues then the usual parrots we (more) often see...they do exist.

 

And in fact I think many Armenians are as guilty as the average Turk in terms of holding onto a somewhat narrow propagandized version of history - OK - I would agree that we are more "right" then the Turks...however that does not mean we have the monopoly on the facts and that there are not significant valid points/history that certain Turks are aware of that most Armenians are not - and we need to listen - we need to understand - we need to be able to speak in a language that means something to the Turks in order that we can press our message - because ultimatly they need to know and accept the fundemental issue of acceptance...and we also need to accept that Turks are not barbarians (even if certain elements at certain/many time behaved barbarously against us & orthers and even if their society and culture is flawed in certain ways - and we must also realize that this is detrimental to them as well as us).

 

I don't know if any of this makes sense - but my point is that we do have to listen - not to those who parrot the exaggerated unsupported proaganda and hatred - but to those Turks who can understand at least a bit of what happend - but are perhaps reluctant - for a variety of reasons to take it to its logical conclusion (I'm thinking of thoise like Ali Surat and others here...) . At the same time Armenians too need to back off from the rhetoric of no-comprimise confrontation - which only hardens the Turks further (and turns others off as well). I really do think that there is some hope in this approach. At the same time our political groups need to be more innovative and flexible (while not dropping our fundemental claims and beliefs concerning the history etc) and Armenia proper needs to be pragmatic of course as they have been - and focused (along with the diaspora) - much more than they have been - in truely righting the ship of the nation. Unfourtunatly they swim upstream in a very strong and treacherous current...and of course nothing really worthwhle is easy either...

[DominO123]

Thoth, the large majority of the Turks will hardly recognise it, when I say hardly I am very optimistic, because I am sure that it is never. It is like telling that you would win the jackpot, but you are pretty sure that you won't, considering the chance you have to win it.

 

It is not about Turks or Armenians, and who is more biased, for me, both are biased, but the Armenians are just by chance in the side that the claim is true. You hide the eyes of two people, and you tell them to guess the colors of something you put in their hands, one guess it right, does that mean anything?

 

A typical Turk will never recognise the genocide, you will bring him facts that he will never be able to answer or conter attack, even if you destroyed his claims one by one... even if he is short of argument and that you have debunked everything that was to be debunked... he won't accept it, you can try as hard as you want, he will move a little and than go to the innitial position he was before the first discussion. And believe it or not, it was worst in general, when you face a Turk of higher education.

 

I have no hope at changing their minds, neither I believe the Turkish government will change. But will I stop? Hell no! It gives me satisfaction to laugh at their claims, to corner them one by one, using their own sources(which the work they have never read) to attack them. This satisfaction is probably what will make me to continue, the cause is just, probably will never give any results and never really meet what I expect, but so as an astronomer that will never probably find all the secret of the Universe that still will search for, so as the researcher that will never find the cure for all diseases, and that will still continue.

 

This is the only way I see that, we may convince searchers etc... but never the Turks, and we must accept it, the important is that history is properly recorded and that the world learn from that experience, if the Turks don't want to learn, what can you do? If a student after everything you tried don't want to learn, what you do?

Edited July 15, 2003 by Fadix

[Sasun]

It is not about Turks or Armenians, and who is more biased, for me, both are biased, but the Armenians are just by chance in the side that the claim is true.

 

I agree with this.

 

Another point, correct me if I am wrong, but the genocide was onrganized in such a manner that it was denied right from the beginning. It was meant to be such - that is, it was part of the plan to make it look like not a planned massacre and never talk about it, blame Armenians for massacres, let alone admit guilt, etc. Not only the elite but the whole of Turkish people have greatly benefitted from our genocide. So, no right minded Turk should ever admit it because they will loose in practical and moral ways. This may sound cynical, but the picture looks like this: neither Armenians nor Turks are perfect animals. Turks just happen to be carnivorous wolves so they need to eat other animals, (for example Armenians ) to survive. They certainly have the right to survive and we can't expect them to change overnight and start to eat grass. And Armenians are neither superior nor better than Turks, its just a fact that they served as good food for their neighbors and were victimized.

[DominO123]

It is not about Turks or Armenians, and who is more biased, for me, both are biased, but the Armenians are just by chance in the side that the claim is true.

 

I agree with this.

 

Another point, correct me if I am wrong, but the genocide was onrganized in such a manner that it was denied right from the beginning. It was meant to be such - that is, it was part of the plan to make it look like not a planned massacre and never talk about it, blame Armenians for massacres, let alone admit guilt, etc. Not only the elite but the whole of Turkish people have greatly benefitted from our genocide. So, no right minded Turk should ever admit it because they will loose in practical and moral ways. This may sound cynical, but the picture looks like this: neither Armenians nor Turks are perfect animals. Turks just happen to be carnivorous wolves so they need to eat other animals, (for example Armenians ) to survive. They certainly have the right to survive and we can't expect them to change overnight and start to eat grass. And Armenians are neither superior nor better than Turks, its just a fact that they served as good food for their neighbors and were victimized.

That is the hearth of the problem, it is even more profound than that.

 

The extermination was necessary for the Turks to have their nation, Germany didn't needed to exterminate minorities to still exist as a nation, this policy against the Jews, was one of ideological alone, the living space theory proposed by Rosenberg(NAZI Chief ideologue), was not necessary for Germany as a nation to survive. On the cases of the Armenians, the Armenians were living in their homeland that was part of the Ottoman, and its existance was the main problem, it was evident that the other areas will be lost, tha Balkan had already been lost, the Arabs were fighting to have their own nation. Which major minority were left? The Armenians.

 

It does not only end here, the Ottoman empire has build propaganda bureaus(Refik refer about that), as prime purpouses to invent a conspiration that the conspirators were allegedly the Armenians, Uras collection of documents, that are one of the foundations of the denialist machine, were collected in such a bureau, when McCarthy for example claim that the Blue Book is a British propaganda, he makes a foul of himself, because he uses such documents build by the Ottoman propaganda bureau(I gave one example just recently in the genocide section).

 

So, the denial of the genocide started even before the genocide happened, the decision to exterminate the Armenians was given after the defeat of the Ottoman on Russian front, the Turks realised that there is big chances they lose the war, and if they were to lose, they would be left with the Armenians, and considering the echnomical power of the Armenian milleti, the Armenians would control about half of the Turkish economy, or finally will have their independences.

 

What was first a decision to isolate and deport the Armenians and probably push them outside the empire or just Turkify them became a final decision, it was then that the circulation permits of the Armenians were destroyed, the decision of destroying the circulation permit of the Armenians correlate with the final decision. Because the Armenians were not permited to leave the empire, and forced to be sent in the desert, because if it was a simple deportation, if the Turks were to lose the war, they would be imposed to let the Armenians return, and after the devastation, the Armenians that were one of the major economical power will control the region. So, no question to deport them on the exterior and give them the possibility to return, to deport them in the interior, untill they all die. Tjis decision is similar to the one taken by the NAZI after their defeat on the Russian front, it was after that that the final solution was given.

 

So what happened later, was that while the Armenians were sent to die, the Muslim were repopulating Armenian houses, the Armenian belongings distributed to the Turks, moneys stolen sent to Germany as blocked founds in banks, and later returned to found the republic.

 

 

Now, imagine that, first the Armenians were exterminated, their homes were given to Muslim, Armenian money sent to be secured, and than returned, where the Kemalists pay the war debts with it and build a republic, the republic has been made possible by the extermination of the Armenians, the possible construction depences were pied by what has been stolen, the reachest families in Turkey are reach because their parents and grandparents were related with the steeling of what belonged to Armenians. How do you expect any Turks to recognise that?

 

WOuld the Turks ever recognise that people were eradicated to found their republic? Will the Turks ever admit that the construction of his republic has been made on the extermination of a people, and even to the last definition of this word, going as far as using what was stolen from the people that have been exterminate to build that republic and pay the allies for the war debts?

 

I will have more difficulties understanding a Turkey that will recognise the genocide(that would mean, recognising what the republic is in reality? A builiding where its foundations are the graves of a people).

 

I am pretty sure that will never happen, the denial has been build before the genocide, later when the Turks lost, it was recognised, and when the Turks took again the power, they used what they have build to deny it again.

 

I LOVE your animal analogy, maybe I will offend a few, but that depict the situation prety well.

Edited July 15, 2003 by Fadix