Hamshentsa

[Boghos]

Too many Armenians for far too long have suffered under delusions. Christ is not coming to save anyone much less us. Sooner we all accept it the sooner we can solve our own problems together. I am not posting on here for validation. Just want Armenians to start thinking about each other. Christianity is a global movement that does not further our national ambitions. If there was a god and he cared about us then he would at least send us a saviour of our own. Not make us follow a made up Jewish carpenter. If this kind of talk is uncomfortable for some then they can shut me up by discussing Armenian unity without any Christian pre-conditions.

 

Armenian unity is as likely as Christ coming to save Armenia.Not because Armenians are different from evrybody else but precisely because we are the same."Unity" is as an illusion as "Christ".

[Arpa]

gmd,You sound very confused.Most Armenians are Christian.

Aren’t we all confused?

But, at least some of us are cautious enough to conceal it.

Sako P-Yesterday, 03:29 PM

Boghos is this a complement.Maybe a fellow Ramgavar?

Speaking of confusion. Do I remember you saying you were Armenian Apostolic Christian?

I know, as many have already concluded I am not the smartest one.

I told you I am not that smart, but maybe someone can enlighten us as to how one can be A (Apostolic) Christian and a Ramkavar.

Besides the fact this would be tantamount to comparing apples to oranges, it nonetheless shows my ignorance. Ramkavar is a compound word made of “ramik=demos=vulgar=peasant” and “var(varel)=to run=to=to drive=govern”.

Whereas most ortodox churches, including the Cathlic, Orthodox and the Apostolic are a far cry from “ramkavar=democratic”. They may be better describes as autocratic, hierarchical and dogmatically canonical.

I get more confused as we go on.

Of course, those stupid Germans call one of their major political parties Christian Democrat.

So do we. Look here. And please note that among those "farcical farties" this is also listed-Christian Democratic Union or CDU (Azat Arshakyn), chairman

Farcical Parties; Count them and see how many "farcical farties", i.e "denominations" one can have. Not that I condone having so many "farcical farties".

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=13...amp;hl=factions

If we are allowed to declare to subscribe to an autocratic, hierarchically canonical denomination, limiting one’s choice, and in the same breath declare to be ramkavar=democratic, popularly run.???

Please don’t confuse me any more than I already am.

If we are still comparing denomination and the so called (farcical) political parties, then why can’t we have 76 denominations? Of course, a democratic country, government is man made and it can be manipulated, but a theocratic ecclesiastical institution is …. Well, made by you know Who.

 

PS. I must admit that many diasporan Apostolic churches may have Church Councils, Taghakan Khorhourd going all the way back to Polis. How much power and say do those councils have when it comes to canonical and dogmatic matters? And, I don’t know this. Do parishes in Hayastan have church councils=Taghakan khorhourd?

Edited December 12, 2006 by Arpa

[gmd]

Armenian unity is as likely as Christ coming to save Armenia.Not because Armenians are different from evrybody else but precisely because we are the same."Unity" is as an illusion as "Christ".

 

I think there are different types of unity. There seems to be at least unity in purpose for Armenians I have spoken to as it pertains to strengthening the fledgling Armenian state. We may not agree on the best way to do it but at least it is something to build on.

[Boghos]

Aren’t we all confused?

But, at least some of us are cautious enough to conceal it.

 

Speaking of confusion. Do I remember you saying you were Armenian Apostolic Christian?

I know, as many have already concluded I am not the smartest one.

I told you I am not that smart, but maybe someone can enlighten us as to how one can be A (Apostolic) Christian and a Ramkavar.

Besides the fact this would be tantamount to comparing apples to oranges, it nonetheless shows my ignorance. Ramkavar is a compound word made of “ramik=demos=vulgar=peasant” and “var(varel)=to run=to=to drive=govern”.

Whereas most ortodox churches, including the Cathlic, Orthodox and the Apostolic are a far cry from “ramkavar=democratic”. They may be better describes as autocratic, hierarchical and dogmatically canonical.

I get more confused as we go on.

Of course, those stupid Germans call one of their major political parties Christian Democrat.

So do we. Look here. And please note that among those "farcical farties" this is also listed-Christian Democratic Union or CDU (Azat Arshakyn), chairman

Farcical Parties; Count them and see how many "farcical farties", i.e "denominations" one can have. Not that I condone having so many "farcical farties".

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=13...amp;hl=factions

If we are allowed to declare to subscribe to an autocratic, hierarchically canonical denomination, limiting one’s choice, and in the same breath declare to be ramkavar=democratic, popularly run.???

Please don’t confuse me any more than I already am.

If we are still comparing denomination and the so called (farcical) political parties, then why can’t we have 76 denominations? Of course, a democratic country, government is man made and it can be manipulated, but a theocratic ecclesiastical institution is …. Well, made by you know Who.

 

PS. I must admit that many diasporan Apostolic churches may have Church Councils, Taghakan Khorhourd going all the way back to Polis. How much power and say do those councils have when it comes to canonical and dogmatic matters? And, I don’t know this. Do parishes in Hayastan have church councils=Taghakan khorhourd?

 

The swearing in for a Ramgavar member includes an oath of allegiance to the Church.

[annannimusss]

gmd,all Armenian Parishes have a Parish Coucil who run the church.The Priest actually does not have that much say in the financial part of the church and the Priest stays if the Parish council says that he stays.The Parish council is elected by Parish members,I thought I would point that out for you.

[annannimusss]

gmd,You are just spewing blasphemy.

[gmd]

gmd,all Armenian Parishes have a Parish Coucil who run the church.The Priest actually does not have that much say in the financial part of the church and the Priest stays if the Parish council says that he stays.The Parish council is elected by Parish members,I thought I would point that out for you.

never asked but thank you for sharing. i know one priest i respect irrespective of denomination. fyi he is an Armenian Apostolic priest and married my wife and me. over the years i have become less tolerant of relgions of any kind.

[gmd]

gmd,You are just spewing blasphemy.

 

I usually do. In this case it is because I object to excluding Armenians based on religion. If anything secular Armenian(ism) should be a focus of development. Failing that at least some attempt at re-examining Armenian traditions and spirituality prior to Christian invasion.

[annannimusss]

gmd,you were asking how I could be part of the Armenian Apostolic Chruch and a Ramgavar and how one is not democratic,when they actually are.I answered your question.They both are.

[shaunt]

BOW TO YOUR NEW GOD, WOTAN

 

http://pvaineau.club.fr/wotan.jpg

[gmd]

gmd,you were asking how I could be part of the Armenian Apostolic Chruch and a Ramgavar and how one is not democratic,when they actually are.I answered your question.They both are.

 

That was not my question but I thanked you for the information out of politeness. Regardless of our differing views on religion I still respect and care for all Armenians.

[gmd]

BOW TO YOUR NEW GOD, WOTAN

 

http://pvaineau.club.fr/wotan.jpg

 

Cool pic. I especially like the gray wolves at his feet like dogs at their master's feet.

[kakachik77]

faces of hamshens in russia (I believe these are the christian ones)

 

sorry the forum is in russian for those who don't understand but still can check out pics

 

http://forum.openarmenia.com/index.php?sho...=13336&st=0

[Arpa]

gmd,you were asking how I could be part of the Armenian Apostolic Chruch and a Ramgavar and how one is not democratic,when they actually are.I answered your question.They both are.

Dear Sako,

Please be more circumspect and tolerant. We can understand your passion. Everybody goes through the stage you are at now. In time you will learn to understand. In the meantime, please read the posts more carefully. When you do that you will notice that the scope of our correspondents runs the gamut of extremely Christian Armenian Apostolic to non-affiliated, to agnostic, to atheistic …. and so on. Me? I am just an idiotic cynic. I question even if it is the sun or the moon up there in the sky, depending whether it is daytime or night.

Speaking of read carefully. Those rebuttals that you have been directing to gmd are based on my item above, i.e. Ramgavar v Apostolism etc. gmd has been very gracious to not set the matters straight.

Please read them again. In the meantime. We love you and your passion, but do please go easy, as you grow up you will realize that many of us here have gone through the same crises at sometime in our lives, yet many of us are still here whether we are Apostolic, Christian or else. First off, we are all humans just like a Budhist or a Shinto, just consider the number of responses to this thread by our members, it will show you how much our majority really cares about religious matters, but what is more important, most of us profess to be Armenians and we shall remain so even if some day Ejmiatsin reverts back to be a pagan temple. It was a pagan temple before the year 301, it will still be our spiritual home in the year 3001. Do learn and accept being an Armenian no matter what our religion is today and can be 1700 years from now. Whether we will have a religion then or not, what will it be seems to be immaterial as long as we are still a nation.

Edited December 14, 2006 by Arpa

[gmd]

Dear Sako,

Please be more circumspect and tolerant. We can understand your passion. Everybody goes through the stage you are at now. In time you will learn to understand. In the meantime, please read the posts more carefully. When you do that you will notice that the scope of out correspondents runs the gamut of extremely Christian Armenian Apostolic to non-affiliated, to agnostic, to atheistic …. a so on. Me? I am just an idiotic cynic. I question even if it is the sun or the moon up there in the sky, depending whthere it is daytime or night.

Speaking of read carefully. Those rebuttals that you have been directing to gmd are based on my item above, i.e. Ramgavar v Apostolism etc. gmd has been very gracious to set the matters straight.

Please read them again. In the meantime. We love you and your passion, but do please go easy, as you grow up you will realize that many of us here have gone through the same crises at sometime in our lives, yet many of us are still here whether we are Apostolic, Christian or else. First off, we are all humans just like a Budhist or Shinto, just consider the number of responses to his thread by our members, it will show you ome much our majority really cares about religious matters, but what is more important, most of us profess to be Armenians and we shall remain so even if some day Ejmiatsin reverts to be a pagan temple. It was a pagan temple before the year 301, it will still be our spiritual home in the year 3001. Do learn and accept to being an Armenian no matter what our religion is today and can be 1700 years from now.

That was very well put. Bravo.

[Zartonk]

Ditto. Well said Arpa.

[Takoush]

Yes I agree with you Zartonk. Arpa said it very well.

[annannimusss]

My friend this is not a faze,it is just my very passionate opinion.

[MosJan]

http://www.ibctoday.com/News/ViewNewsItem....ideoPanelType=1

 

Lately, a fragment separated from Armenians – the Hamshen Armenians who are not only far from the Homeland but also they adopted a foreign religion, is very often spoken about.

 

However, the Turkish State sets off several misinterpretations and falsifications worked out by its own historian school against the researches that are carried out to prove the connection of Islamized Armenians with the Homeland.

 

“They generally deny the Armenian origin of the word ‘Hamshen’, the Armenian origin of Hamshen Armenians and the authority of Hamshen. Moreover, they carry out anthropological falsifications with the issue. They have a huge arsenal of false science school that is already formed, which they use for falsifying the evident historical truths.”

 

Candidate of Philological Science Lusine Sahakyan believes that not only demographic facts but also the etymology of the names of the places becomes subject to falsifications.

 

Internet sites are full of illiteracy and number of false information.

 

“For instance, the word ‘Hamshen’ they explain by ‘oghughachaghatian’ components, but in fact, it derives from the word ‘hamamashen’ after Hamam Amatuni, and the suffix ‘shen’ has a true Armenian origin.”

 

Like other researchers who are interested in the issue, Lusine Sahakyan also states that the slice of Armenian consciousness among the Islamized part of the Hamshen Armenians is either erased or hidden very carefully.

 

“Unfortunately, the national consciousness, and the consciousness of the connection with Armenia are either absent among them, or they are in the atmosphere of fear. Finally, Turkey is not the country that can sleep and allow the rise of such consciousness among them.”

 

Since the 15-th century, Turkey adopted a policy of Islamizing Armenians by means of force.

 

Currently, the country strengthens that policy by a policy of lie and fear, which is like a tradition for it.

 

Hence, Armenian specialists have the task to carry out their own approaches concerning the issue and presenting it to the international community.

 

Gohar Martirosyan, Henrik Sargsyan, ‘Yerkirn Aysor’ (The Country Today).

[zurderer]

I think you are aware that, when you are calling their religion as a foreign religion, we(Turks) call them as our people.

 

So stop to waste your time with thinking about them. They fleed russia because of their religion and they will not change their religion because of (Their so-called brothers.). They are not even your people, but ours.

 

waste your time with bolsohays. Maybe you would have more chance to take them outside of istanbul.

[Armenak]

I think you are aware that, when you are calling their religion as a foreign religion, we(Turks) call them as our people.

 

So stop to waste your time with thinking about them. They fleed russia because of their religion and they will not change their religion because of (Their so-called brothers.). They are not even your people, but ours.

 

waste your time with bolsohays. Maybe you would have more chance to take them outside of istanbul.

You represent all Hamshenis?

[zurderer]

Absolutely no

[Johannes]

''So stop to waste your time with thinking about them. They fled Russia because of their religion and they will not change their religion because of (Their so-called brothers.). They are not even your people, but ours.

Waste your time with bolsohays. Maybe you would have more chance to take them outside of Istanbul''.

 

 

Զրտիկն իր հերթական փչոցներէն մին տուաւ:

 

Այս մարդը (կամ կինը) իրեն համար կեանքի նպատակ դարձուցած է իր՝ Bulgar-Pomak, նախահայրերուն մայրիկները սիրած պետութեան՝ osmanli կոչուող, դաւապետութեան իրաւայաջորդ քեմալականներու ստապատիր քարոզներու տարածումը:

 

Յայտնագործութիւն մը ըրածի նման, այսպէս կոչուած ''türk''- երը, աշխարհով մէկ կը գոռան, թէ մեր ալ կարծիքը ունկնդրեցէ՛ք, պատմութիւնը միակողմանի մի՛ լսէք:

 

Թերեւս հետաքրքրութիւնէ մղուած սիրտը ճաթի çatlar, խորհելով թէ ինչ կը գրեմ:

 

Թո'ղ չ'հասկնայ, ան կարեւոր չէ:

 

Արդարացի է երբ կ'ըսէ.-«ռուսերէն փախչելով եկան», սակայն անարդար է, երբ այդ փախուստը կը վերագրէ՝ համշէնահայոց:

 

Ռուսերէն փախչելով եկողները, ոսմանցոց երբեմնի զոհ, սակայն 18-րդ դարուն դահիճներու մօտ ապաստանող. Աբխազ abkhaz, չեչեն tchetchen, չերքեզ tcherkez, ադըղեն adigen, աբազա abaza եւ այլ կովկասեան լեռնականներն էին:

 

Վերոյիշեալ ցեղերն եկան, եւ բնակեցան՝ հայ Armenian, եւ հելեն Greek ժողովուրդներու լքած հողերուն վրայ:

 

Համշէնցոց գաղթի ուղին, արեւմտեան հայաստանէն, դէպի ռուսիա եղած է: Մնացողները տաճկացած՝ կէս-կէս հայերն էին: Այդ մնացողներու լեզուն. ոչ այլ ինչ է, քան հայերէնը, հայերէնի համշէնի բառբարը:

 

Ես ընթերցեցի այդ լեզուն, մահմեդական համշէնցիներու կայքին մէջ, եւ հասկցայ: Համշէնցիներու անմիջական դրացի՝ լազերը պիտի չի հասկանային այդ լեզուն:

 

Կոստանդնուպոլսոյ Constantinopolis վէրջին հայերն ալ, վտարելու մասին կ'արտայայտուի այս զմբրտոց zurd-zird:

 

թուրքը միշտ թուրք պիտի մնայ:

 

 

 

[Arpa]

''So stop to waste your time with thinking about them.

=======

Կոստանդնուպոլսոյ Constantinopolis վէրջին հայերն ալ, վտարելու մասին կ'արտայայտուի այս զմբրտոց zurd-zird:

թուրքը միշտ թուրք պիտի մնայ:

Յանցաւորը այդ զմբրտոցը չէ, այլ մեր իսկ “զմբրտոցները” որոնք այդ հնդկահաւի ծիրտը կը պատուեն իրենց պատասխաններով:

Այդ զմբրտոցը կը գրէ ըստ իր գիտման ճշմարիտ սակայն տգէտ հավատքով ինչպէ որ մեր շատ մը “զմբրտոցները” նմանապէս, մեծ համուզով ու հավատքով տգիտաբար գրեն թէ մենք (առաջին), առջնակարք եւ լավագոյն Քրիստոնեաներ ենք:

Edited December 20, 2006 by Arpa

[Armenak]

Յանցաւորը այդ զմբրտոցը չէ, այլ մեր իսկ “զմբրտոցները” որոնք այդ հնդկահաւի ծիրտը կը պատուեն իրենց պատասխաններով:

Այդ զմբրտոցը կը գրէ ըստ իր գիտման ճշմարիտ սակայն տգէտ հավատքով ինչպէ որ մեր շատ մը “զմբրտոցները” նմանապէս, մեծ համուզով ու հավատքով տգիտաբար գրեն թէ մենք (առաջին), առջնակարք եւ լավագոյն Քրիստոնեաներ ենք:

Ամօթ է յայտարարել թէ մենք «առջնակարք եւ լավագոյն Քրիստոնեաներ ենք:» Ինչո՞ւ: