Defamation against Turks...

[ThornyRose]

I intend to put together a few examples of such that I see here and there...

 

I haven't been following that forum for a while, but this post utterly disgusted me:

http://www.vestris.com/cgi-agnes/one/agnes...TMLArticle+3236

 

Currently in moderated mode, I have made this post as a reply: http://www.vestris.com/cgi-agnes/one/agnes...TMLArticle+3252

 

Here is what it says:

 

Re: “Dr.” Henry Astarjian via Art Sarkisian.

 

 

It is a pity that such charlatans are allowed to write in Armenian weeklies – not a pretty sight and certainly not good for your reputation. It is people like him that work against Armenians, painting the portrait of the Armenian as a charlatan, an opportunist, and a liar.

CULTURE (Literature, education, performing arts, creative arts, religion, cuisine): There isn’t a single Turkish writer or a poet who has contributed anything to world literature. Turkey does not have the Arab and Persian worlds’ Haafiz, Omar Khayyam, Khalil Jbraan, or Abul Alaa El-Ma’aari; Armenians do. When they came from Central Asia, they had a single string of cat gut stretched over a goat skin drum, and a bow of another cat gut which they rubbed against each other to create some kind of a sound, or is it noise, that was their musical instrument, “Rabbaba.” It later became “Cheufta Telli.” The rules and the basis of what is known as “Turkish music” were established by Armenians. Men like Kemani Tatiyos Asdghikzade Sebuh, Kanuni Artaki Terzian, Udi Arshak Chomlekchian, Levon Khanjian, Onnig Kazazian, Nigoghos Effendi, Asdik Agha, Hampartsum effendi, Ardaki Jandan, and Udi Hrant were the fathers of Ottoman Turkish music.

 

Wrong. Persons of note down that line: Nazım Hikmet (seen a portrait of him in a bookstore in Rome). Yunus Emre. Alpharabius – considered in the Muslim world as the greatest philosophical authority after Aristotle. Mevlana.

As for music – I thought Turkish music and Armenian music had their vast differences! Turkish folk music is very different even from region to region, although it also shows indigenous traits – what would you have to say if they hadn’t survived?

What happened to the saz and bağlama...? Why are they to be seen in Greek (and perhaps Armenian?) instruments if they are so barbaric and backwardly Turkish?

 

Turks have not written a single opera, what they perform is all European, and the undisputed father of this field is Dickran Chukhajian. Where is Turkey’s Khachaturian, Gomidas, Mardiros Sarian, Jansem, or Karzu? Those who established and developed theater were none other than Armenians, people like Mardiros Minakian, Hagop Vartovian (Gullu Agop), Bedros Atamian, Vahram Papazian, Verkine, Araxi, Nvart, Arusyag, Alexanian, and Shahinian.

 

Excuse me? I’ve heard my father turn on Turkish operas on the radio – nobody’s gonna tell me they were translated from Italian or German, are they?

Hikmet Şimşek, Erol Erdinç – maestros I have observed to go abroad and receive much applause – my one teacher I gave an invitation to had come to me the next day and had expressed her amazement at the way Erol Erdinç conducted while he played on his piano – an “act” of his that made people go up on their feet and applaud him.

Livaneli – his stuff was played by the London Symphony Orchestra – I have the album here with me – “Livaneli, New Age Rhapsody” - conducted by Francis Shaw. He has also done much with the famous Greek Maria Pharandouri.

The Ertegün brothers – guess what they have to do with Atlantic records.

Süher and Güher Pekinel (can’t ever get their names right) – famous twin pianists.

 

Any Armenian matches for Cemil İpekçi, Bahar Korçan, Zeki Başeskioğlu, etc., by the way? Why do you consider a “piss race” to be fine sport?

 

EDUCATION: Their base was the Koran for Arabic, and a mixture of Farsi, Armenian, and Kurdish for language. Kemalism allowed European languages, and now the Turkish language is a bastardized version of Latin, French, German, and recently, of course, Americanese.

 

The Aq-Koyunlus, the Kara Koyunlus, the Seljuqs, and the Tatars had no letters, and no writings. They knew no math, geometry, astronomy, medicine, and had no type of educational background. The Armenians, the Arabs, and the Persians did.

 

Please tell me what are we going to learn from the ignorant, uneducated Turk who after 75 years of Kemalism has 60 percent illiteracy? Over 90 percent of Armenians are not only literate, but educated.

 

Some of the famous Armenians who led Ottoman educational system were Tovmas Terzian, Hagop Boyajian, Yervant Osgan, Hovsep Yusufian, Prof. Komurjian, and Arture Saraffian, to name a few. Today, thousands of schools in Anatolia and other parts of Turkey remain without teachers, and a vast majority of their children, especially girls remain totally illiterate. This is the future generation of Turkey with which our offspring is to do business, if left to the AAA and HoHoSha.

 

Loanwords (more the manifestation of cultural suicide [as suggested by Ali Shir Nevai] than necessity, perhaps) in Turkish are no impediment any more than they are to English. Even the word “during” probably has its roots in Latin – but can you find a word that pre-dates the incorporation of French as court language (and the like) anymore? I can’t. So? Yet English is one of the most powerful languages in the world.

60% illiteracy is deliberate misinformation. Even if not something to be proud of, it is the other way around (and a bit better). Moreover, almost all citizens of the former USSR are educated – just as well for the Kazakhs and who else you seem to overlook. It has to do with the communist system. Pity we didn’t have this, now, right? But somehow a misinformer such as yourself can become “doctor” – should I laugh or cry?

Ever heard of the “Turkic runes,” doctor? Although not in use for a long, long time, even Mehmet the Conqueror used certain signs and symbols in his writing that were not Arabic – direct descendents of that same script used in the Orkhon inscriptions (and that is not the only “Turkic” alphabet around – there was also the Uighur).

As for the future generation of Turkey people might want to do business with – if we are not reliable, then the prospects are not feasible, doctor – anyone with the slightest understanding of how the wheels turn would know that.

 

RELIGION: Turkic Central Asian tribes had no religion. The Khazars (Gezer: Turkish for wanderers), Turkic tribes of the 7th and 8th centuries, displaced by the Chinese, settled in the Volga River valley, and eventually converted to Judaism. “They constitute the cradle of Western Jewry,” wrote Arthur Koestler in The Thirteenth Tribe. They populated Poland, Hungary, and Bulgaria, and eventually populated the present day Israel. Those who conquered Asia Minor converted to Islam.

 

Armenians are celebrating their 1700th anniversary of adopting Christianity. Religion should not be an issue, but in the eyes of the Ottomans, even in today’s Turkey, Armenians are “Giavours” (Infidels), and their killing is “Halaal.” More than 40 percent of Turks are Islamists (to be differentiated from Muslims). Armenians do very well in the rest of the Islamic world, e.g. Iran and the Arab world, but not Turkey.

 

Totemism is a good religion for tourism, isn’t it? So is shamanism [a religion].

Turks did convert to Islam – and Armenians to Christianity. So?

Additionally, there aren’t too many Armenians in Turkey for you to make comparisons. Not only that, but you seem to forget the way Armenians prospered in the Ottoman Empire before the racists showed up.

40% of Turkey being “Islamist” – another gross exaggeration. My source to downplay that – the percentage of votes held by the Islamist party/parties. What are yours?

 

 

CUISINE: Central Asian Turkic tribes discovered fire centuries after the rest of the world. They eventually figured out how to apply meat to fire, and voila, kebab was born. Today’s famous Turkish cuisine is Armenian and Greek. Like everything in our heritage they have confiscated and utilized this one too.

 

Then give us back our yoghurt, choerek (exists in the other Turkish states), etc. You cannot make choerek Armenian by pronouncing it with a “g” at the end.

What is your source for “Central Asian Turkic tribes discovered fire centuries after the rest of the world”?

 

LAW: Koranic law aside, civil and criminal laws were written and taught by Armenians. The undisputed father of Turkish law is none other than Professor Krikor Zohrab, who educated hundreds of Turks to become lawyers, only to be killed with his friend—another member of the Turkish “Parliament”—Vartkes, on orders of Ittihad ve Terraqi, by Cherkez Ahmed and Nazem Bey.

I claim no idea of what lies in that direction... At least I know where to shut up.

 

ARCHITECTURE: The one and only Turkish claim to fame in this field is “Mi’mar Sinan” who is Armenian and his name is Sinanian. Shamelessly, the Turks presented him to the world as a Turk (Such as they did in the Metropolitan Museum in New York, a few years ago prompting Armenian demonstrations). Other giants in architecture are the Balyan family; Krikor, Garabed, Nigoghos. Kutahian, world famous and much sought after pottery and ceramics are pure Armenian art and creation. Only a few years ago some were auctioned off at Sotheby’s in London. They claim that to be Turkish creation too!

 

Same goes here, except I would be delighted to remind you that perhaps there are quite authentic works of architecture in Central Asia – something worth mentioning since you are so gaa-gaa over the Akkoyunlu and who else rather Turkic...

Not everything that looks worldly and originates in Anatolia is Greek or Armenian. And Greeks and Armenians weren’t the only ones to “run” the empire – there were Albanians, Jews, Circassians (I am one by ethnicity – at least half), etc. Self-appointed value is only a delusion.

 

MEDICINE: Armenians educated the invading Turks not to use dead mice as a poltice on a wound. They taught them modern medicine, and the Turkish elite trusted the Armenian rather than the incompetent untrustworthy Turkish doctor who might have an eye on their women. Doctors like Boghos Sasian, Manuel Sasian, Kaspar Sinanian, Kapriel ***** Seryan, Hagop Davidian, Mgrdich *****, Dickran Ajemian, and Michael Horasanji, served the Ottoman Courts and the Sultans. The nations military powder mills were trusted to the Dadians, Ohannes and Boghos; the nations Treasury to Hagop Kazazian *****.

 

Gazi Yaşargil... Tunçalp Özgen... Contemporary surgeons of the highest grade.

Treasury has much to do with medicine, O respectable scholar! Sorry for pointing out your incorrigibility(!).

Since you are so comfortable with sexuality (from what I see from your mention of Turkish doctors with women), you won’t mind my inquiring about yours – were you about to divorce when you wrote this?

 

By the way – you had to wait for the Turks to come for Byzantine efforts to incorporate the Armenian church into theirs to end... So foul of us, no?

[ThornyRose]

I had ended up here after looking for something that mentioned an "Agogi Armeniki" somewhere:

http://virtuals.compulink.gr/armen-yth/pages/turuk.htm

 

I recall that high-school's web-site having the same... What a shame... But I haven't been able to find it again.

There are other ways to talk about such - not through defamatory tones.

[khodja]

This is just the type of negative Armenian propaganda that I previously mentioned. This kind of commentary is very counter-productive. And it is no wonder that some Armenians call my great-grandfather a traitor for his "Aslaneh ge kenanagor, mi artensener!" comment. This stuff is like a little mouse giving "the finger" to the lion which is sittng next to him.

[khodja]

Thorny,

 

FYI my family member is one of the persons listed, and I do not take such a broad negative view of Turks. Perpetuating this antagonism is counter-productive to both peoples.

[ThornyRose]

Additionally, Khodja, for someone who seems to feign complete upkeeping with the Turkish goings-on, this person has missed the easiest point that can be refuted here:

http://www.vestris.com/cgi-agnes/one/agnes...TMLArticle+3247

 

Namely, that of Merve Safa Kavakçı's treatment. Even the stupidest Turk would know why she hasn't been sworn in - it was discovered that she had obtained an American citizenship illegally - Turkish civil code decrees that you inform Turkish authorities of such - then you can have as many citizenships as you want. She had not done so, and it suited the purpose of those who were after her to give her a good punishment. Otherwise, there is nothing they could have done because she wore a head-scarf - and they would have been frustrated. She beat it out of parliament when Ecevit's lot clapped and shouted her out. Her mistake was giving them that chance in the first place. Although it was indeed for the head-scarf that she got punished, there is also the cover that makes everything look absolutely legit (no-one can object against her being given the boot as far as citizenship goes) because of her own idiocy.

I've seen her talk on TV - she's sleazier than myself. What a dirt-bag with a piece of cloth on her head... I wonder why this Astarjian doesn't tease that side of her like he teases "the generals"... It just doesn't suit his purpose, does it? She's by far one of the most pathetic and insecure women with nice polished teeth that I've seen.

[ThornyRose]

Ah, and one more thing - although she hasn't been sworn in, she [still] gets her salary. I wish Astarjian would complain about that for the sake of [the stagnancy of] our bureaucracy...

[ThornyRose]

What does that mean?

[ThornyRose]

Although the main focus of this article is another thing, I would like to call attention to the way this person speaks out against slinging mud against Armenians in the web-site mentioned:

http://www.asbarez.com/TARC/Acemoglu.html

 

Once network54 is up on its feet and running again, I intend to post that and this one on Middle East Forum and also my own li'l archive-forum for future reference:

http://www.asbarez.com/TARC/Balakian.html

[ThornyRose]

I thought Murat Acemoğlu was Turkish... Oh well... I was thinking, how nice to have a Turkish citizen of non-Armenian origins write such stuff...

I can do better than Astarjian! Let me write.

[TigrannesIII]

Defamation against Armenians.

1)Armenians are not indigenous to Anatolia.

2)Armenians are not descended from Urartu.

3)Yerevan is really Iravan, Azerbaijani province.

4)Khojaly.

5)Artsax is not Armenian.

6)It was civil war.

[ThornyRose]

Present company does not qualify for target of your statement, in case you haven't learned that already, learn-at-snail-speed-boy.

Present company is the one (and not you) that got ATAA's guestbook closed down, in case you forgot. I hate to brag, but...

[khodja]

Present day Armenian and Turks are very close genetically, which proves that both peoples are indigenous to the region. The minor differences are due to secondary interspersal of genes from inmigrations. History however has minimized this because many Turks are descended from Balkan peoples, as were the Armens. The people of the East have deposited their genes into the genepools of both peoples. Armenians have some French genes and some genes of the Jews of the Middle East while the Turks and Jews share a common bond through the Khazars. But basically both peoples are indigenous to Anatolia.

[ThornyRose]

And even if not indigenous, Turks now live there. I have no emotional attachment to Mongolia.

[ThornyRose]

Another fine example, this time from religious fundamentalist scum, all in a bad taste about something that made so many families here sad (and continues to make families around the world sad):

http://www.alsalafyoon.com/EnglishPosts/Tu...keyQuakeEng.htm

 

I feel like "abusing" their guestbook...

[khodja]

We have the same types of religious fundamentalist scum here in the US. Part of my "war" with MJ was his adoration for his hero Rushdooney, an an Armenian-American who even after death is adored by these Christian fundamentalist scum. There are even Jewish fundamentalist scum among the Jews, the late Kahane for example.

[wh00t]

And to think, if it wasn't for you he'd never known about him.

[khodja]

I do not believe that that anyone should be left "in the dark." My mention of Rushdooney did not change anyone's views, only confirmed that there are Armenians among the fundamentalist christian leadership, which helps to fuel certain Jewish interests against us.

[MJ]

I was away, and I hoped it might help to heal "Hagop." But I am sorry for him. I wish I could help him. But I think he is a lost cause not worth the time and the effort.

[khodja]

MJ,

 

I'm not Hagop, not Bedros, not Mustafa, not Mehmet, but I have a common Armenian name. Maybe you will hit the bullseye next guess.

[MJ]

"Boghos,"

 

I feel sorry for "disturbing" you. I think it was probably inhumane. I promise to exercise extreme caution with you. Please let me know if I can help you.

[gamavor]

Listen Mehmet,

Your great-grandfather was lucky that I was not his contemporary. I would gladly shoot him.

[ThornyRose]

So, "aslan" means "lion" in Armenian also. Maybe it is Armenian (or Farsi or other) anyway, because I doubt there were lions in Central Asia... I do, however, remember there being the statue of a beast somewhere around the whereabouts of those inscriptions in Mongolia... I don't remember what it was - will have a look to see if it was actually a lion!

Lion is written as "aslan" or "arslan"... And it is funny that it's like writing "ass" or "arse" in English... LOL.

It is used as a proper name by Turks, and Circassians (and perhaps 'most everyone else in the northern Caucasus) do, too, although I don't know if it is the same "aslan" (meaning-wise)... Aslan Maskhadov is a Chechen example.

If the Circassians got it from Turks (either by migratory tribes or contact with the Ottomans), it wouldn't surprise me, because Circassians also used "Tengiz," the Turkish word for sea (deniz) as a proper name (before we in the republic made a move toward more Turkish names and less Farsi and Arabic)... I know about that name because I also read it in Fazyl Iskender's "Sandro of Chegem"... And Turkish was pretty much understood by the elderly there.

It can also be the case that "aslan" is a Caucasian word (shared by Armenians and Circassians and who else) and the Turks got it from them. It seems more likely to me, almost.

That said, it would seem odd that the earliest Turkish conquerors in Anatolia adapted the word so readily as to actually have names like Kılıçarslan and Alparslan.

But... Where were we? Oh yes.

[ThornyRose]

Yee haaaaaaaaa! Armenian cowboy...

[khodja]

Gamavor,

 

No need! Your doppelgangers, the Triumvirate did the job for you.

 

Thorny,

 

She's a cowgirl. From Beirut and Yerevan, they learn the ways of the prairie, horse wrastling (no not misspelled), etc.

Her former Governor, now the US President is also a cowboy. Armenians quickly take on the characteristics of the adopted land. I can just see her high in the saddle going after a bunch of "Injuns." Problem is, for these Armenian folk, they look very much like the "Injuns" (Native Americans).

[khodja]

Gamavor,

 

Were you anywhere in the vicinity of the Armenian Parliament building on October 27, 1999?