Defamation against Turks...

[ThornyRose]

We love you, too, Gammy, baby. Myself, I simply wish you (you and only you - not all Armenians - no, not at all) would have to wear your shoes the other way for the rest of your life, your underwear would be pulled over your head, and that the flesh around your urinary tract would be stretched out and tied up in an ızbarço (is there an Italian word like sbarciare? I've found only sbarcare) knot. I don't need an atomic bomb for that.

[aurguplu]

thorny,

we don't have to get down to his level. remember the turkish proverb: it ürür kervan yürür.

let him bark if that's all he can do. there are those we can talk to sensibly, let's do that and ignore the likes of him.

cheers,

[ThornyRose]

Ah, but, Ali, it was so, ah, tempting!

[aurguplu]

thorny,

aslan is a common altaic word. in mongolian and tungus the word is arsalan, and either the mongols or the manchu-tungus have a word erselen for female lion.

the -lan at the end is not the current turkish lan ), but most probably the chinese word lung (pron. lan) which meant "dragon" or some other big animal.

and yes, there were lions in asia (there still are in india) and turks may very well have seen some before coming to the middle east. lions roamed all the way from spain to india in antiquity, and if i am not mistaken, the last lion in turkey was shot in the 19th century. the last sighting of a tiger dates from 1972. panthers are still seen.

cheers,

[ThornyRose]

Much thanks, Ali!

Actually, there WAS (or still is, but is at the brink of extinction) such a thing as a Siberian tiger, right?

My thoughts of the lion's geography were rather up north, quite far from India...

Now that I remembered, lemme see if I can fetch that photo...

I think it was the last lion that was sited in 1971. Speaking of which, have you heard about that Turkish scientist or some such guy who says he saw one sometime ago recently somewheres? I think he works in TÜBİTAK... Nothing has been backed up since then, so I guess it was baloney.

[ThornyRose]

Here it is:

 

http://network54.com/Realm/Arhavi/Orkhon10.jpg

 

Looks like anything but a lion.

You see Radloff's signature on the lower left, I think.

[aurguplu]

thorny,

 

1. if you notice, half of the head is gone.

 

2. yes, it is radloff's signature at lower left.

 

3. i think i remember clearly that it was the last tiger and not lion. the last lion was shot somewhere along the euphrates sometime in the 19th century. in historical times they were fairly common in anatolia. the asian elephant was also common at around the time of christ.

 

4. the siberian tiger is still there, but critically endangered. beautiful animal...

 

cheers,

 

[ November 05, 2001: Message edited by: aurguplu ]

[aurguplu]

khodja,

if ataturk were alive today, he would be jailed for separatist activity (bölücülük), because in his Speech (nutuk) he says somewhere at the beginning "türklerle kürtler birleşti" (turks and kurds united), de facto recognising that 1) there is an entity called "kurd" separate from "turk" and 2) they were not always united.

if muhammad were alive today, he would be called an infidel by usama bin laden, and have a plane flown into his house.

if jesus were alive today ... my god!

[ThornyRose]

Gosh, Ali, there was some funny stuff in theonion.com - God finally giving a briefing - "You shall not kill - even in my name - I can't be any clearer than this, OK?" etc... LOL... But looks like it is not archived... Can't find it...

[khodja]

The family members of Jesus were excommunicated from the Church. They ended up in Southern France where they established themselves. They eventually married into the Merovingian Dynasty. Those who knew their lineage eventually worked to exterminate this royal line. Behind this was no other than the hierarchy of the Church. If Jesus were alive today, he would immediately be excommuicated from the Church.

[aurguplu]

huh?

[aurguplu]

khodja,

 

the reaction you are getting from some of the members of the forum (i shall not name them, we all know) is very similar, in fact identical, to the one i have been getting from some fellow turks over the years when i attempted to discuss certain "sensitive" subjects like what happened to the armenians, the ethnic composition of turks etc. with them.

 

some of the attitude reflected here against turks and against you is the mirror image of the attitude i found in certain circles against the armenians and against me whenever i questioned the "received truths".

 

my experience of nearly 20 years in this endeavour tells me that it is useless to argue with such people. they are of the same ilk as the clergy who refused to look through galileo's telescope to the the truth of his theories for fear of losing their faith.

 

when i finally realised that i was wasting my time trying to establish a sensible dialogue with them, i decided to drop it. i was wasting my time, energy, nerve and everything, and wasn't getting antyhing constructive in return.

 

what civilised dialogue can you establish with someone who says that he hates this or that nation biologically, or that he wouldn't cry if 20 (make it fifty) nuclear bombs were dropped on them?).

 

with all due respect, i think you are wasting your time with them, if i may say so.

 

i shall post the 2nd half of the list of ottoman armenians later today. have a look.

 

cheers,

[gamavor]

Mehmet,

 

We all know why Armenians hate turks. Could you explain to us why turks hate Armenians?

 

Make them 51 and if anybody survives I will finish him!

[khodja]

Gamavor,

 

For the same reason that the Arabs hate the Jews. The Arabs consider the Israeli nation something of the past, not the present. They feel that it is of the past and should not exist at present. It is a thorn in the side of the Arab and Muslim world. Without it Nasser's and Bin Laden's dream could become reality, an Islamic nation stretching from the Atlantic to India. I am not justifying the policies of Sharon, however. I believe that he agitated the present problems, even before he was elected. It was a political move on his part. As for Turks hating Armenians, it is because while the Lydians, Phrygians, Capadocians and later Pontic Greeks do not have a nation, Armenia still survives. It is in the way. You can also say that there is a similar issue between Turks and Kurds. Another reason is that the Armenians have sided with the enemies of the Turks many times, from alliances with the Crusaders and Mongols to it's close historical ties to the Russians, whom the Turks fear. But the greateast reason that present day Turks hate Armenians is because their government, petrified of having to restore Armenian properties and bank accounts, has created a scenario of lies about wholesale massacres of Turks by Armenians.

[khodja]

Gamavor,

 

Will you please stop talking about finishing off the Turks. You have your head on backwards. If you want to defend Karabagh against Azeri attack as a soldier, that I can understand. If you just want to go and finish off Turks randomly, I think that you are a deranged and dangerous person. God save the Armenians from the likes of you. What you are stating you want to do is EXACTLY what the Triumvirate did to my family, their close associates. No wonder some in the West think that Armenians fly- off-the-handle and arbitrarily kill people, sometimes even their own (e.g. 10/27/99).

[gamavor]

Mehmet,

 

Your explanation is too simplistic. Being polite and diplomatic are very good qualities but not at the expense of the truth. If only 10% (probably non-turks) of the total of 65 million are aware and ready to admit what happened in the beginning of 20 century, to me this race is idiotic. Antihuman bastards that must be eliminated. Period.

Could you please also explain to me why all of their neighbors hate them?

[Peter]

[aurguplu]

i forgot to add to the above that the opinions (or rather the feelings of hatred) expressed there are those of the hawks and the ignorant people rather than the more civil and informed turks who want to see their countries integrated to the rest of the world rather than remain outside it.

 

hatred generates hatred, and it seeps into my way of talking sometimes, too, when i have to deal with the likes of gamavor, and i deplore it.

[Peter]

Listen Khodja,

1. In case you didn't know, it is quality
that counts and not quantity! The problem
which Turks & Azeris seem to face is their
lack of quality. See the Artsax
conflict:
Artsax-Armenians vs. 8 Mio Azeris.
You know the outcome!

2. Over 40% of you so called Turks are
actually Kurds which are still suffering
under terrible kinds of suppression in
Turkey. Ask them what they really think
of Turks. And them how they feel about
living in a country in which people are
forced to worship Kemal Attaturk as if he
was God!

Take my advice if you will and don't use any statistics; especially if you are not aware
of all the aspects involved. You talk about peace? That's fine. I have a suggestion. I will come around and kill your father and rape your mother and take everything away from you and then, some years later I'll come back and talk about making peace with you without even apologizing!!! What do you think of that?

It is not up to the Armenians to make peace with the Turks. What do you think they are suppose to do? Go over and kiss & hug the Turks for what they have done and tell them
"It's Ok, let us become friends."???

Turks should do their homework first and then start talking about peace.

[MJ]

Because Armenia, which cannot forget its past is the live reminder of Turkey's past, I think. And the modern Turks would like very much to alienate themselves from the past of Turkey, without assuming liabilities for it.

[Peter]

The turkish authorities seem to beleive that their country would cease to exist if they admitted the truth. They have formed a state controlled by terror, suppression and lies. And evidently they are ready to maintain the current situation by all means. It is a wellknown fact that Turkey is anything but a democratic country. In fact, one could say that it is a form of military dictatorship. Any turkish citizen expressing criticism towards the state faces possible imprisonment. There are even turkish intellectuals who have suffered this way because of their views regarding the armenian genocide or the kurdish problem etc.

 

As long as there is no freedom of speach and no freedom for press and media in Turkey, there won't be much change I'm afraid. As long as the the avrage man on the streets of Ankara and Istanbul reads the propaganda trash of the Hurijet-Newspaper day after day, I see no way of finding a solution for a better future.

 

I am not an advocate of hate. However, the longer the state refuses to come out with the truth, the greater the hatred that grows among Armenians and Turks towards eachother.

[khodja]

Peter,

 

FYI, both my grandfathers were killed by the henchmen of the Young Turks, even though one was not 100% Armenian. My aunt, an infant, was also killed. At least 100 other members of my family "disappeared."

So don't think that I do not understand your feelings. Emotional outbursts, however, have gotten us nowhere. It is our minds, not our hearts that will be our salvation. Last year great strides were made to bring the Genocide issue to the attention of the world. It forced the Turkish government to assist in forming a commission to try to address the issues between Armenians and Turks. I do not know whether this commission will accomplish anything substantial, but it did force the Turkish leaders to make a move.

 

Do not paint all Turks with one brush. By doing so you weaken your position. Organized intelligent effort and a willingness to put aside traditional Armenian divisions will help our cause. Raw emotions will only bring us more despair. The root of our present problems is the traditioanal position of the Armenian Churches over the perceptions of the people. Why should the Armenian Church be split into two, when the liturgy is identical? Why should Armenian Catholics and Evangelicals be looked upon with disdain? Until the historical grip of the Church is diluted we will go nowhere as a people.

[ThornyRose]

Listen Khodja,

1. In case you didn't know, it is quality

that counts and not quantity! The problem

which Turks & Azeris seem to face is their

lack of quality. See the Artsax

conflict:

Artsax-Armenians vs. 8 Mio Azeris.

You know the outcome!

In such conflicts, it is usually those that defend their country (and not their monarch on vast corners of an empire) that beat the aggressors who have little emotional belonging there. I’m sure that my neighbor would have more gut and will to defend his house than I would to invade it. Similarly, the Greeks “came as they had come” with their Anatolian campaign, although their equipment and circumstances were much better than ours.

 

2. Over 40% of you so called Turks are

actually Kurds which are still suffering

under terrible kinds of suppression in

Turkey. Ask them what they really think

of Turks. And them how they feel about

living in a country in which people are

forced to worship Kemal Attaturk as if he

was God!

 

I thought it was 20% of Turkey’s population that constituted the Kurdish ethnicity. How lovely it is to blow up figures so they look even more dramatic – right?

Hey – I’m a Turkish citizen. I haven’t got to the point of asking a Kurd what he really thinks of Turks, but I’m sure it is not the hate you would like to portray. We have Kurds all around us – and that “Kurdish conscience” you more-royalist-than-the-royals mention is not as sharp as you might think. Had Kurds thought “what they really think of Turks” in the way you wish to connote, then I suppose I would have been harassed in Doğubayazıt because it should be obvious I am not one of them – and I wasn’t abused in any way for being a Turk. The very thought never entered my mind, because such issues as you say exist nowhere but in sicko foreigners’ minds.

Another thing you dimble-weeds fail to realize is that it is all ethnic groups that equally suffer from suppression. Unless you claim anything you find around is Turkish, your expression is not guaranteed.

There is little difference between what Kurds and Circassians (I am one) or any other group go/have gone through in Turkey. The only difference is that the Circassians were spread all over the country and never quite concentrated in a region they could historically or otherwise claim to be their own. Hence, the “world” cared not for Circassians but for Kurds whose rights (or was it “independence”) were supposedly championed by the PKK. Hence, today you have European MP’s wearing PKK’s colours for Kurdish cultural rights but not Circassian costumes or motifs for the same. Now, what to do with that?

 

Take my advice if you will and don't use any statistics; especially if you are not aware

of all the aspects involved. You talk about peace? That's fine. I have a suggestion. I will come around and kill your father and rape your mother and take everything away from you and then, some years later I'll come back and talk about making peace with you without even apologizing!!! What do you think of that?

It is not up to the Armenians to make peace with the Turks. What do you think they are suppose to do? Go over and kiss & hug the Turks for what they have done and tell them

"It's Ok, let us become friends."???

Turks should do their homework first and then start talking about peace.

I believe you are not aware of the audience you address. Ali and I are the only Turks active on this board, I think, and/but what you say above does not apply to us. Add something to what we are saying instead of rambling on.

What you can do, however, is emphasize the difference between the state and the people who are [in a way] victims of the former. You already seem to know the difference – hack where it is weak.

 

Mehmet,

Your explanation is too simplistic. Being polite and diplomatic are very good qualities but not at the expense of the truth. If only 10% (probably non-turks) of the total of 65 million are aware and ready to admit what happened in the beginning of 20 century, to me this race is idiotic. Antihuman bastards that must be eliminated. Period.

Could you please also explain to me why all of their neighbors hate them?

Jerky-vore, is it my right to claim you are idiotic because you’ve been literally brainwashed to eat meat? I mean, it is obvious that the fact that Armenians are no longer where they used to be when they were so numerous pinpoints to genocide, by the outcome. But it is also a fact that a baby in a cradle will not choose to eat the [live] rabbit rather than play with it. It doesn’t have the instinct to munch on its neck and suck on its blood with relish, gnawing at the raw flesh (can you?) with its baby teeth. Even some small canines will prefer a plate of fruit over a plate of meat (I’m talking about my uncle’s [rather, mother’s cousin’s] poodle) despite the shape of their teeth and the size and length of their intestines. Still, we slaughter animals day after day (and I am happily brainwashed – yum yum :9 ), believing we were created omnivores or something. Somehow we were “created” ( ) with flint tools to slash at animals. How about before (LOL) that?

Now, does that give me the right to go on at length about others, Jerky-vore? Shall I threaten to destroy all those who do not accept they were taught wrong?

I’ve also given you the chance to come clean and accept that you’ve been taught wrong, Jerky-vore. Accept it now. Do/will you, Jerky-vore? You can’t say I didn’t tell ya.

Turks, on the other hand, haven’t been provided the similar luxury – ever.

[Peter]

Khodja,

I wasn't intending to be personal. I brought that example just to show how many of the Armenians feel. And I don't regard all the Turks being the same. I acknowledge for instance the fact that there were turkisch families who saved the lives of some Armenians during the Genocide. I am also aware of turkish intellectuals who don't deny the facts and cooperate with armenian groups on the issue of the Genocide. When I mention Turks, I mean those in charge, and the ones who follow and approve those in charge. And they still build a vast majority of the turkish people (unfortunately).

To help forming a comission 85 years after those events is a very poor record on behalf of the turkish government. You don't seriously think that this comission is going to achieve anything positive to us Armenians,
do you? This is an issue, where there can be no compromise. What happened then can't be changed or reversed. We Armenians shall not bargain over this matter, basta!

As to the problem of the churches, I must admit that I don't quite see the connection to the question of the Genocide. Armenians are not always united, it is true. But when it comes to the subject of genocide they all speak the same language (with perhaps few exception).

[aurguplu]

gamavor,

1. your ancestors were eliminated by people who thought precisely the same way and even used the same kind of language.

2. history has shown that people who give orders to kill innocent, defenceless people (as opposed to doing it themselves) are generally cowards who cannot even own up to their own acts or face the results and consequences of them. this was the case with talat and hitler.

3. why does the world not destroy us? 'cause it can't. the world (or, rather, the west) HAS tried to destroy us in the 1915-1920s, and failed. we have proven to be too tough a military, too resilient a nation, and too important a nation located in a too strategic geopolitical area. we cost winston churchill his career.

then the west took the very sensible decision to "join us if it can't beat us", and so did we vis-a-vis the west.

now we are there as a fact that will simply not go away, and you must find ways to accomodate us in your psyche. you must do that not because you like us etc. (that would be way too much to expect after the genocide), but simply because you must ensure that your world outlook and that of your nation and offspring has a basis in the realities of the world.

we will not go, just as israel will not go. you have to learn to live with this fact just as the arabs have to learn to live with the fact that israel won't go.

now about why the turks hate the armenians (i claim to have a degree of competence in this area):

1. the turks see the armenians as a threat to their own existence. you might find this ridiculous given the relative size of the two nations, but if you remember the sevres treaty, the fact that armenians rarely fought on their own but usually hid behind the russians, french, british etc., and the israeli-arab issue, then you can at least see that the turks do have a reason to see you as a threat to their own existence.

2. a significant proportion of the turks of today, and especially the majority of the ittihat and later the republic are balkan muslims in origin. these people underwent three centuries of uninterrupted persecution and massacre at the hands of the christians as the empire kept shrinking, and ended up in anatolia only as a last refuge, and almost as soon as they arrived, the local greeks and later the armenians started to stir things up. the armenians were not the first, but the last christian subjects to rebel (the muslims followed suit). and they hit us precisely at our weakest moment, and not on their own, but with the russians and the french on their side. put yourself into their shoes and tell us what you would do.

so the turks (i mean those who hate) despise the armenians rather than hate them, because they have not demonstrated the ability to come to the front and fight on their own (the greeks did, for instance). like every nation, we hate and are hated by an assortment of neighbours and what not, but like every nation, we have a certain respect for a certain class of enemy who has demonstrated the ability to fight, and despication for those who haven't. armenians unfortunately fall somewhere between the first and second categories (they do not fall into the second category, that is reserved for the arabs).

now as to why we are hated by our neighbours, show me two neighbours that like one another! we conquered our neighbours and they understandably hate us. if we were conquered by them, we would hate them, too. we were conquered by the russians (at least the central asians) and we did hate the russians for that.

and also, the most important reason, hate is easier to acquire than love.