Stormig Posted January 3, 2003 Report Share Posted January 3, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Sip:I'm sure you already know that 50% of the women graduating from top Universities in the US, were ranked in the bottom half of their graduating class (among females). That's so disturbing but it's a fact of life That doesn't really mean much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted January 3, 2003 Report Share Posted January 3, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Stormy: quote:Originally posted by Sip:I'm sure you already know that 50% of the women graduating from top Universities in the US, were ranked in the bottom half of their graduating class (among females). That's so disturbing but it's a fact of life That doesn't really mean much.Hmmmm ... I'm hurt... out of all those statistics up there, you had to rain down on mine? What's so different about my statistic than the rest? Loreley, I hope you realize I am not making light of the situation. I am only trying to say that statistics are often misused ... they can be manipulated to say anything, and often are used to support incorrect conclusions (some of which Azat has alluded to). If you are trying to make a case that women have it bad in the US and are being systematically discriminated against, etc, I personally think you have a poor case. On the other hand, I believe you can make a VERY strong case for other countries, especially in the not-so-western parts of the world, but in the US, I really think the playing field is very level ... much more level than it has EVER been in history anywhere in the world (as far as I know). To give you an example, our COMPUTER SCIENCE research group here at UCLA is 50/50 males and females!!! Can you believe it? I went through my entire undergraduate life at UCLA, seeing 98% males in my classes and 2% "undetermined" (I don't think they were really females but didn't really check) ... but now, after all these years, things are so different. And these females are the ones that will be going into leading research programs and high-level positions in corporations, right along-side those "elite" white men you are referring to. Most of those "feministic" cries and complaints don't apply in the US anymore ... at least not to the "systems" which are in place. Sure biases still exist. But all those will move out and be replaced by the fresh views and forces coming in. Yes, once again, I am an OPTIMIST Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted January 3, 2003 Report Share Posted January 3, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Sip: quote:Originally posted by Stormy: quote:Originally posted by Sip:I'm sure you already know that 50% of the women graduating from top Universities in the US, were ranked in the bottom half of their graduating class (among females). That's so disturbing but it's a fact of life That doesn't really mean much.Hmmmm ... I'm hurt... out of all those statistics up there, you had to rain down on mine? What's so different about my statistic than the rest? Well, I have my own observations and hypotheses (note: not theories), too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted January 3, 2003 Report Share Posted January 3, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Sip:I'm sure you already know that 50% of the women graduating from top Universities in the US, were ranked in the bottom half of their graduating class (among females). That's so disturbing but it's a fact of life Hahahaha! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 3, 2003 Report Share Posted January 3, 2003 Azat - regardless of your very valid points regarding statistics and specific application to this argument of women versus men comparative pay - there does exist a gap. Some of this is - of course - due to the fact of men being in the work force longer (in greater #s & %) - thus being present in greater numbers at more senior positions - but some of this also stems from discrimanatory practices where men have rationalized to pay women less for the same jobs. I have not only seen this in action - but my wife has recently won a lawsuit to this effect! (So hah!). So I know - very well - from personal experience as well as my own observations otherwise. And in fact - my wife was not selected for 4 different positions in which she was able to very easily prove (a joke really) that she was clearly the most qualified/had the most experience/better ratings/most output and in fact was rated higher by the selection commitees. But when the selector (man) picked - in each case he picked someone who was being championed (by other men) in management. These were their buddies - and in one case there were outside "favors" involved etc. So you see - this is the real world - this is how its done. (on example of a very many). Oh and very sorry about your being unemployed. I imagine that for the most part it really sucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted January 3, 2003 Report Share Posted January 3, 2003 Somehow , I get the feeling that you two are talking about different sectors, Thoth and Azat. Makes all the difference in the world (public vs. private)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted January 3, 2003 Report Share Posted January 3, 2003 Isn't it nice when people have a discussion without resorting to name-calling and hurling insults? Now, if we could just improve on keeping things in the right thread!! I think what is interesting here, is that nobody disagrees on the ideal scenario: women should be remunerated equally for the same work as men This statement is conditional upon several factors - education level, sector of economy etc. etc. What is at stake is the extent of the gap between the current state of affairs and the ideal. Personally, I see merits on both sides of the argument and I can see room for a middle ground on this issue. Lorely, while I agree with your point that society has in the past encouraged women to adopt certain roles, I believe that many of those schools of thought are breaking down. I think I can say most certainly that there is a gap in pay equity. But again, it is not universal, and better yet: it is shrinking. The attitudes that are at the cause of Lorely's (strong) opinions DID exist, and probably still do to a certain extent. The good news is, these attitudes are disappearing as younger generations move into upper management positions. Suffice it to say, the gap will disappear - but it will be the result of people like Lorely who continue to remind us that issues like pay equity for women, have not yet been wholly resolved in North America. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted January 3, 2003 Report Share Posted January 3, 2003 Dear Loreley, as I, myself am part of an unfortunate statistic(unemployed for 3 months mow) I find myself with much free time and I will pick up that book and read it. The name is very interesting. "Ain't I a Woman". Named after a very famous speech from 1800s by the black slave leading woman. Thank you for the very calm and refreshing dialog. I wish there were stats on Armenian women. I would be more interested to see differences between us and the rest(if there are any) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QRISTINE Posted January 3, 2003 Report Share Posted January 3, 2003 Shat tsav er kardalov ko tsnoxneri masin Seaphan da shat nman er im tsnoxneri het katarvatin. Mek mek mtatsum em mi te menk Hayers patjvats enk bnutian koxmits darerov tanjvats, halatsvat toxnelov mer mshtakan ojaxe, hairenike mi kerp hastsnelov mez otarneri hoxere. Es aid depkum kasei vor hamamtim em Lorely het petk e nrank el vcharven lavaguinoren ete americayi licinse chunes da chi nshanakum vor aveli vat masnaget es.Da hamamit em vor ain harganke inch vor unetsel en aintex el aisex da derk berele klini djvarutiamb baits miayn ain e mnum mez linenk ujex ev portsel haxtaharel kianki djvarutionere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loreley Posted January 4, 2003 Report Share Posted January 4, 2003 Vava: I agree with your statement!!!!!! Of course, the socioeconomic situation for women is not the same as it was 20 years ago. Opportunities are opening up for women (altough in a much smaller scale for women of color and immigrant women). Things have improved and changed, but we are still not at the point of saying things are equal. When we compare the situation of women in developing countries to women in the U.S., women here are much much better off. Should we comform because things are little better than in the past and when comparing to other countries? No. It is about reaching equality for all people (women, men, gays, White and non-White people, immigrants,lesbians, here and around the world). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loreley Posted January 4, 2003 Report Share Posted January 4, 2003 Azat: Hope you find a job really soon!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 Today driving home from work I was listening to NPR and heard a 5 minute report on how the gap between women's and men's salaries have widened again this year. It gave all kind of stats and even pointed out something that I have seen in the last few months as I have hired some 7-8 people in my organization. I have noticed that women never ask for more money and when they do and you do not budge much they still agree to take the job. I have the same gap in my new hires that exists in the statistics. When a position is created we write down the min and max salary we are willing to give for that position. After couple of interviews when we decide to offer teh job to anyone we always ask them what salary they would like in hopes that it will be lower than the minimum we are willing to offer.(By the way this is true in most private companies) Those few that know how to negotiate will say that they are open to listen to the entire package.(as a manager this is when you know you are a bit screwed) Second thing I will do is that I will tell them that the position pays maximum of the minimum amount I have in mind. In hope that they will agree. The good candidates know that they can get some 25-30% more. Very few(I think2) of my hires got to this point. The 2 women and 1 guy asked for less, many agreed pretty close to the min and some for the middle. So just as in the statistics our company is pretty much the same where women earn less. And unfortunately because they started low their pay raises will be lower and bonuses as well. And there is pretty much nothing that I can do about it unless they come and ask for more money and force me to face upper management. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anileve Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 Today driving home from work I was listening to NPR and heard a 5 minute report on how the gap between women's and men's salaries have widened again this year. It gave all kind of stats and even pointed out something that I have seen in the last few months as I have hired some 7-8 people in my organization. style_images/master/snapback.png Women, generally, have a hard time asking for raises. I've witnessed it among all of my friends and my coworkers. I think it's still the old mentality that women must prescribe to humbleness and modesty while men are known to be more aggressive, thus such behavior is naturally accepted as the norm. But I wasn't aware that gap widened, I was under the impression that it pretty much leveled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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